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Drawbacks to elite specializations


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With the latest balance patch we can see how anet is adding more and more negative stats to the Elite specializations. (druid pet stat nerf, 300 vit nerf scrapper, removal chrono distortion shatter F4) If this trend keeps on going more negative stat nerfs will follow

What nerfs do you speculate will come next?

Which specialization will be hit next?

Are you a fan of the drawbacks?How would you implant these drawbacks, in the same way or would you handle it differently?

I am speculating here but I believe anet is trying to bring back the core classes and the balance between core class and hot and pof specializations

We already have core guardian as a strong spec, which core class would you like to see buffed first and how?

I myself am quite interested to see how anet is gonna bring core classes to the same level as the Elite specializationsHow they will do it and how much it will change a class.

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@"Mortifera.6138" said:They’re called “elite” specializations.

Why should they be on the same power level as core specs?

Just as "expertise" means "more condition duration" (rather than "expert knowledge in a particular field"), "elite" doesn't mean "superior." "Elite" is a jargon word used by ANet to indicate "not available to free-to-play." Largely, it's turned out that players feel elite specs are superior (for good reasons); that doesn't mean that it must be that way.

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It doesn’t really feel like balance between core and especs is being achieved at all (maybe except for PvP); it just feels as though especs are being nerfed in bizarre ways for the sake or impression of making core more appealing.

I disapproved of this direction ever since the daredevil and druid ‘tradeoffs’ first came out. Tradeoffs are needed when the elite introduces new mechanics/traits that have too much synergy with the core class, not implemented just because espec ‘x’ looks like it needs one (or a few, for certain especs).

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@"Noodle Ant.1605" said:It doesn’t really feel like balance between core and especs is being achieved at all (maybe except for PvP); it just feels as though especs are being nerfed in bizarre ways for the sake or impression of making core more appealing.Indeed, none of that makes core more appealing. For that, buffs to core would be needed.

All of this reminds me of attempting to balance the ranger during the first year of the game. When players then complained that longbow was so bad as a range weapon, they were practically forced to be running shortbow (or melee), Anet's attempt to "fix" it was very simple. They nerfed shortbow into the ground. Which ended with both weapons being unusable. It took few years and a ton of rebalances for both bows to recover from this.

I'd rather not see a repeat of this kind of balance strategy. Unfortunately, it seems this way of thinking seems to be still popular among balance team.

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Core guard is only good because DH's traitline is terribad, so i guess they don't need to touch DH if they want to retain that trade off /shot. Though judging by druid, which was nerfed on dps purely for taking the druid traitline also, then nerfed again with pet dps, DH will probably be erased from relevancy instead.

Maybe I haven't thought enough about the design, I can justify how at least i think the reasoning behind most balance changes are, but some of the elite spec nerfs really do just feel like nerfs for nerfs sake. I'm okay with it- they do need to be careful to avoid giving a spec too many negatives- trade offs feel fun, and though i /personally/ didn't have a problem with elite specs being straight up better than core i'm not really fussed about core and elite specs being brought in line with each other. Elite specs need drawbacks to ensure they're not straight up better, and to me i always felt kinda sad when i had to give up a fun traitline to take an elite spec.

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Another option is to have each "elite" specify 1 or 2 normal core traitlines that they are opposed to.

And example could be that if you picked "Dragon Hunter" for guardian, you can't take "Virtues" or "Honor". While if you took FaceBook uhm.... "FireBrand" you couldn't take "Valor" or "Radiance" for example.

This would force playstyles into more specialized ways for the elites, and let ANet tailor the balance better, to know what each elite doesn't get, so they can easier adapt the "Elite" around that, and set the power level better.


And yes, the word "Elite" was a really bad choice. They should have just kept going with "Traits" and used the word "Specialization" instead of "Elite". That was what they where going for anyways.

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@"Kodokuna Akuma.9570" said:Idk which one will be bit next but I doubt necro will get hit at least. Since both reaper and scourge have some clear "trade offs" aka melee baseds shroud and no shroud form per say. They also did with the last patch go with bringing up core necro shroud to balance things.

Scourge is meta for WvW and necromancers go-to condition build (as well as support build). Reaper just got toned down for its sustain in PvE while it's power build remains one of the tankiest high damag output builds for PvE content and is necromancers power build.

Necromancer core build is not used in ANY game mode and unviable everywhere.

Given then the theme of this question is: bring back core classes, are you absolutely sure necromancer will see no changes? Seems llike necromancer would be one of the hardest hit if the developers wanted core builds to see more play.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Kodokuna Akuma.9570" said:Idk which one will be bit next but I doubt necro will get hit at least. Since both reaper and scourge have some clear "trade offs" aka melee baseds shroud and no shroud form per say. They also did with the last patch go with bringing up core necro shroud to balance things.

Scourge is meta for WvW and necromancers go-to condition build (as well as support build). Reaper just got toned down for its sustain in PvE while it's power build remains one of the tankiest high damag output builds for PvE content and is necromancers power build.

Necromancer core build is not used in ANY game mode and unviable everywhere.

Given then the theme of this question is:
bring back core classes
, are you absolutely sure necromancer will see no changes? Seems llike necromancer would be one of the hardest hit if the developers wanted core builds to see more play.

In terms of the addition of drawbacks like the name of the thread suggests I would say both necro specs show them. In terms of general balance then yes necro is fair game in the balancing department.In all likelyhood though they are working to raise core necro as could be speculated from the prevous balance patch which reworked core necro shroud.

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Besides the marketing fluff that went into the "elite" name, the dev team clearly intended them to be better than the existing core specs

  1. You can only have 1 elite spec selected
  2. It provides an additional weapon skill
  3. It can only be unlocked at level 80 whereas all core specs for a class can be 100% unlocked before level 80.
  4. It adds or significantly enhances major class abilities.

Elite specs are as much part of the end game as ascended gear. And they should be better than core specs, just like a full set of ascended gear is better than exotic gear.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Mortifera.6138" said:They’re called “elite” specializations.

Why should they be on the same power level as core specs?

Just as "expertise" means "more condition duration" (rather than "expert knowledge in a particular field"), "elite" doesn't mean "superior." "Elite" is a jargon word used by ANet to indicate "not available to free-to-play." Largely, it's turned out that players feel elite specs are superior (for good reasons); that doesn't mean that it must be that way.

They are probably called elite for the same reason the game is is called guild wars despite the lack of GvG ... because "elite" in GW context means "you can have only one of these at a time". "You can only have one of these active at a time spec" just don't roll off the tongue very well.

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@Mortifera.6138 said:They’re called “elite” specializations.

Why should they be on the same power level as core specs?

I agree. These nerfs are unnecessary.

@Lucentfir.7430 said:The original thought behind E-specs was that they were a side grade when they were announced in HoT. The word play here with Elite Specializations just means Specialized Niches.

They should have simply added an elite spec for each profession to the core game instead of nerfing the other e-specs.

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Diversify the elite specs away from the core specs.Have it so all elites have their own unique set of traitlines corresponding to that elite.That way if anet wants to bring core up to par with the elites: they may do so without buffing the elites.Problem solved

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The "drawbacks" that have been added to elite specs just feel unfun. Instead, they should buff unused trait lines to make them more appealing. Unfortunately, we have people that dislike any power creep for some reason. I don't really understand that sentiment myself. Power creep just helps bad players complete content they were unable to when it was released.

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Buffing everything else to be on par with the Elite's would be unwise, all it would do is further the existing power-creep, trivializing more existing/old content, and make pvp/wvw even more un-enjoyable than it is (with all the 1hit wunders, and chainable invulnerability abilities etc).

ANet promised us a side-grade with Elite's, it's a bit late, but I'm glad to see they're finally trying.

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@"Edelweiss.4261" said:The "drawbacks" that have been added to elite specs just feel unfun. Instead, they should buff unused trait lines to make them more appealing. Unfortunately, we have people that dislike any power creep for some reason. I don't really understand that sentiment myself. Power creep just helps bad players complete content they were unable to when it was released.

because power creep trivializes content, if players are unable to complete content because it's too hard then they need to improve their skill or learn said encounter. gw2 is supposed to be a game, not a skinner box

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