-300 vit on holo instead of scrapper

[redwing.9580]

stat penalties shouldn't be forced onto any spec

[Yasai.3549]

Make Holo also kill themselves when they overheat.

But they deal 5x their health in damage in a 900 range AoE after a 2 second delay.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@rdigeri.7935 said:What if the vitality reduction was the tradeoff of holo instead of scrapper?Imo it makes more sense for a glass cannon themed spec.

How is this post not flamebait?

@"revolucion.3864" said:I don't know what the point of this poll is.

It's basically asking "Do you want to get punched in the face or the stomach?"

The point? Get everyone riled up. Nothing else.

@redwing.9580 said:stat penalties shouldn't be forced onto any spec

^He gets it.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Nobody should have a penalty on their specialization lines. Period.

^He Gets it.

@Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:Why not on both?

Irenio, I found you!

[Chaba.5410]

The whole idea of a trait that removes stats is bad to begin with. So the poll is kind of stupid.

[rdigeri.7935]

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:What if the vitality reduction was the tradeoff of holo instead of scrapper?Imo it makes more sense for a glass cannon themed spec.

How is this post not flamebait?

@"revolucion.3864" said:I don't know what the point of this poll is.

It's basically asking "Do you want to get punched in the face or the stomach?"

The point? Get everyone riled up. Nothing else.

Believe it or not it was a genuine interest in opinions, not bait for the more sensitive holo mains.

^He Gets it.

And why not? Elites are given tradeoff, why can't stats be one?Even then, it's a design decision that anet is apparently comfortable with, so the question is not invalid.

[Chaba.5410]

@rdigeri.7935 said:And why not? Elites are given tradeoff, why can't stats be one?

What kind of trade-off do you think is happening? Is the reward truly in balance with the risk?

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:What if the vitality reduction was the tradeoff of holo instead of scrapper?Imo it makes more sense for a glass cannon themed spec.

How is this post not flamebait?

@"revolucion.3864" said:I don't know what the point of this poll is.

It's basically asking "Do you want to get punched in the face or the stomach?"

The point? Get everyone riled up. Nothing else.

Believe it or not it was a genuine interest in opinions, not bait for the more sensitive holo mains.

^He Gets it.

And why not? Elites are given tradeoff, why can't stats be one?Even then, it's a design decision that anet is apparently comfortable with, so the question is not invalid.

Ok fair enough. You were genuine.

I genuinely think, that 'tradeoffs' (arbitrary nerfs to stats) is lazy and just plain bad. I'm not alone in this opinion. Look at the reactions of scrapper mains to this last patch.No class should have a stat debuff added to their class of choice. NONE.

And here's the thing, classes in all mmos come with tradeoffs built into them.

In Gw2 we get to pick-the class-Traits that lean us in a direction-Utilities that support the playstyle we chooseand then we get to add extra stats and perks via Sigils, amulets and Runes.That's enough. The devs don't know Richard about PvP/WvW and the patches show.

When someone picks a Trait line, they do so for what it gives to the class, not for what it takes away.

Patch before last, Druid (horse so dead, it's a skeleton) got another kick in the teeth with some ridiculous and bad Lore to justify a 'Tradeoff" with their pet.The pet wasn't op.Nobody cared about the pet.Druid in PvP was already a dead horse.

Every patch SMH

[schloumou.3982]

@EnderShadow:You need tradeoffs to get some sort of build diversity. Just take any engi build without the Holo line and 1v1 a competent meta dueler. That should change your opinion. Fighting the same build over and over gets boring real quick. I would love to see core sd, cele,3kit condi, weird turret builds, explo scrapper and stuff but thats never going to happen if one line gives you access to so much stuff without any downsides like Holo does.

[Dawdler.8521]

@schloumou.3982 said:@EnderShadow:You need tradeoffs to get some sort of build diversity. Just take any engi build without the Holo line and 1v1 a competent meta dueler. That should change your opinion. Fighting the same build over and over gets boring real quick. I would love to see core sd, cele,3kit condi, weird turret builds, explo scrapper and stuff but thats never going to happen if one line gives you access to so much stuff without any downsides like Holo does.But there is a trade off, or can you take 3 normal engie traitlines and scrapper?

[ChillyKoti.1928]

This whole trade-off thing is very badly executed in my opinion.

Stat loss shouldn't have been introduced, though I might have tolerated it if it was tied to a beneficial grandmaster trait.

The initial trade-off should be the fact that you can only equip 2 core specialisation instead of 3. Maybe also tweak the main profession mechanic too. Engineer already loses their F5 skill to their elite spec variant. Berserker is a very bad exemple of this tough, in the way that it already had some kind of trade-off with their F1 (while in berserk, lose access to tier 3 burst). They could have done the same thing as spellbreaker; keep their basic F1, but only 1 bar of adrenaline available to use (either core burst or primal burst.)

So no. Stat loss is a very bad and lazy design.

[schloumou.3982]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:@EnderShadow:You need tradeoffs to get some sort of build diversity. Just take any engi build without the Holo line and 1v1 a competent meta dueler. That should change your opinion. Fighting the same build over and over gets boring real quick. I would love to see core sd, cele,3kit condi, weird turret builds, explo scrapper and stuff but thats never going to happen if one line gives you access to so much stuff without any downsides like Holo does.But there is a trade off, or can you take 3 normal engie traitlines

and

scrapper?

The elite lines are not normal lines though. They give you more than just traits. They add new skills, weapons, class mechanics on top of what engi has. The logical way to balance this, would had been to lose access to all toolbelt skills and give another strong class mechanic and playstyle in my opinion. I agree that -300 vit is a lazy approach to that problem and especially misplaced on scrapper, but i think some kind of downsides are unavoidable if we want to see a variety of builds, if you can even speak of that with how limited the trait system has become after the rework.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

Up until the latest patch picking an elite line was in no shape or form a trade-off. Many expansion trait lines and abilities are a notch better than anything core has to offer. On top of that, elites can cherry pick any core abilities that are on par, meaning that they can pair the strongest available abilities of a chosen class.

[rdigeri.7935]

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:No class should have a stat debuff addedIn Gw2 we get to pick-the class-Traits that lean us in a direction-Utilities that support the playstyle we chooseand then we get to add extra stats and perks via Sigils, amulets and Runes.That's enough. The devs don't know Richard about PvP/WvW and the patches show.

When someone picks a Trait line, they do so for what it gives to the class, not for what it takes away.

You're right. It would be most ideal if traitlines were all equally useful, but some of them, usually elite specializations, offer too much compared to core ones, and that's why tradeoffs came to be. Whether making all traitlines equal would offer a better experience (it does sound better) is up to speculation since anet's heading in another direction and they won't likely change that.

It's probably too late to bring down all the overperforming specs so that tradeoffs aren't needed, this quick-fix bandaid is what we got instead.

In light of these, i made this poll because even if there are tradeoffs, i feel like this specific one got put in a weird place and i wondered how people'd feel about it being elsewhere.

So thank you all for the feedback

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@schloumou.3982 said:@EnderShadow:You need tradeoffs to get some sort of build diversity. Just take any engi build without the Holo line and 1v1 a competent meta dueler. That should change your opinion. Fighting the same build over and over gets boring real quick. I would love to see core sd, cele,3kit condi, weird turret builds, explo scrapper and stuff but thats never going to happen if one line gives you access to so much stuff without any downsides like Holo does.

We are talking about separate things. The way Anet has used the 'tradeoff', with a simplistic hit to stats glued to a trait line, is what I have a problem with. I fully support a unique reason or an active traitline that has something more, something unique to that line. Not a subtraction, but an addition.

I've played just about more MMO's than anyone I know and none of them had this.Every class in mmo, in whatever 'Trait Type System' always added to what the class COULD do and not what it Could Not do.

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:No class should have a stat debuff addedIn Gw2 we get to pick-the class-Traits that lean us in a direction-Utilities that support the playstyle we chooseand then we get to add extra stats and perks via Sigils, amulets and Runes.That's enough. The devs don't know Richard about PvP/WvW and the patches show.

When someone picks a Trait line, they do so for what it gives to the class, not for what it takes away.

You're right. It would be most ideal if traitlines were all equally useful, but some of them, usually elite specializations, offer too much compared to core ones, and that's why tradeoffs came to be. Whether making all traitlines equal would offer a better experience (it does sound better) is up to speculation since anet's heading in another direction and they won't likely change that.

It's probably too late to bring down all the overperforming specs so that tradeoffs aren't needed, this quick-fix bandaid is what we got instead.

In light of these, i made this poll because even if there are tradeoffs, i feel like this specific one got put in a weird place and i wondered how people'd feel about it being elsewhere.

So thank you all for the feedback

I really believe Anet bit off more than they could chew when they decided to be different and completely get rid of the Holy Trinity.WoW was the first to really move this direction but they didn't balance nearly as often and usually not as severe as Anet has historically.

• the way they already balanced often in GuildWars, making a tremendous amount of builds
• the ridiculous power creep
• their continued lack of not working with the community (every mmo does this eventually, time and time again)
• unreal power creep=What we have today.

And now they want to dial back classes by just hitting them for full stat nerfs tied into a trait line???I'd rather see them shave dmg here and there, instead of this 1 class getting a ridiculous tradeoff every 3 months.Just when I get used to playing a class and really getting the hang of it, here comes the crippling nerfs.

It really makes me feel like, the only way someone can enjoy pvp in Gw2 is if they play every class and just switch to whatever is the Almighty Flavor Of The Month

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@schloumou.3982 said:@EnderShadow:You need tradeoffs to get some sort of build diversity. Just take any engi build without the Holo line and 1v1 a competent meta dueler. That should change your opinion. Fighting the same build over and over gets boring real quick. I would love to see core sd, cele,3kit condi, weird turret builds, explo scrapper and stuff but thats never going to happen if one line gives you access to so much stuff without any downsides like Holo does.But there is a trade off, or can you take 3 normal engie traitlines

and

scrapper?

Of course there is a inate tradeoff. There always has, in any mmo and in any RPG type game.It automatically comes with the class you pick. Warriors do melee dmg and can tank physical dmg. Whats the downside? They can be susceptible to ranged attacks.Casters can hit from range but are susceptible to melee dmg. Automatic and inate class tradeoffs.

But NEVER have I seen where picking a trait line comes with active debuffs or a hit to stats.Take a WoW warlock, you pick traits for what it gives you and never did a trait give a skill and a debuff at the same time.

[rdigeri.7935]

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:It really makes me feel like, the only way someone can enjoy pvp in Gw2 is if they play every class and just switch to whatever is the Almighty Flavor Of The Month

Yep that is the sad truth.

I guess anet is free to experiment with new things, even if it's not the favoured solution

[Dadnir.5038]

Scrapper got -300 vit because he got barrier on hit, does the suggestion mean that holo will get -300 vit and the barrier on hit? You know this could end up pretty broken due to the offensive nature of the holosmith, right?

More seriously the trait, Impact savant, in itself have a broken mechanism promoting glass canon build over tanky build for survivability. This is something that shouldn't exist (just like the % damage to health of the reaper) for build diversity sake.

The right thing to do here is not to remove the -300 vit, but to replace the %age damage to barrier by a set amount of barrier on hit which would then open scrapper to condi build, support build and tanky build instead of pigeonholing them into glassy power builds.

[Ambrosius Custard.8137]

I'd honestly be fine with keeping the -300 Vit if they just reverted every other Scrapper change. Seriously.

[rdigeri.7935]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Scrapper got -300 vit because he got barrier on hit, does the suggestion mean that holo will get -300 vit and the barrier on hit? You know this could end up pretty broken due to the offensive nature of the holosmith, right?

Not the whole thing, just the vitality reduction. It might be fitting for heat therapy.

More seriously the trait, Impact savant, in itself have a broken mechanism promoting glass canon build over tanky build for survivability. This is something that shouldn't exist (just like the % damage to health of the reaper) for build diversity sake.

I totally agree with this but not because of build diversity, rather elite spec identities. Scrapper shouldn't (and can't) compete with holosmith for the dps role, and that's why impact savant fails. If it rewards using glassy stats, then why does it reduce vitality?

The right thing to do here is not to remove the -300 vit, but to replace the %age damage to barrier by a set amount of barrier on hit which would then open scrapper to condi build, support build and tanky build instead of pigeonholing them into glassy power builds.

Not a bad idea. Important question is the inner cd of it, whether it'd reward flamethrowers and other rapid attacks, or the procs are too far apart.

In this case the vitality removal might be fine too since glass is not necessary and the barrier gain makes it overall beneficial.