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Why give raiders and fractal players so much more attention than pvp and wvw?


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Is there a reason, financial or technical? Are the populations of raiders and t4 fractal players really so much greater than those of pvp and wvw? How come they get new content yet pvp and wvw get nothing for years. If i understand this games playerbase correctly, the vast majority only really do casual pve, so why have so much focus on new raids and fractals? 7 years of 3 point conquest in pvp, 7 years and 1 new wvw map. I get that they are slow to release, but at least raids and fractals get anything at all. Using the excuse that "pvp content comes from fighting other players" doesnt justify the neglect that wvw and pvp have been shown. Having one gamemode in a pvp game like this is pathetic (stronghold doesnt count), and having no new maps in a large scale wvw game makes it become incredibly stale.

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I play all modes except of spvp. I feel bad for latter, cuz of how imbalanced is this shit.As wvw player: we received mount. It destroyed solo roaming, but gave us more possibilities Tbh. I can't call it positive or negative change. Just a change.As raid player: we were waiting 9 months for wing that was overrun in 2h. Imo something went wrong.As fractal player: last 2 fractals we received are... Bad. Sirens and Deepstone are rly bad designed at few points and a some of my friends (and me as well) just skip them when they are both on the same day. Something went wrong here as well, and I'm not sure if we should expect better times .

Conclusion. Imo wvw is in best spot out of all game modes. It has a lot of issues that u need to accept, but it has the most potential to give a lot of content.

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Cause they buy the skins for gems they bought with real money. These types of players always will get the most attention. And I guess working people that only login 1 or 2 hours every day will buy a lot of new content and skins related to new Living World story stuff. (Also they have the money - when they work a lot.)

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@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:I'm not sure content that one doesn't care for mean it "doesn't count". WvW has had some updates over the years, and recently added Gliding and a Mount.

I don't sPvP, so I don't know what's been changed other than Stronghold (which does count).

How is gliding in WvW a recent change ? It came out 2 years ago...Is Siren's Reef also a recent map ?

PvP got few new maps, but nothing in regard of "play a different game mode". Most "recent" addition was Djinns Dominion map i guess, which came out 1.5 year ago, and the Asura arena (2v2) which noone realy plays, cause there is no gamemode that supports it (except custom games, which noone plays).

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Judging from the fractal LFG there are quite a few more people doing that than PvP. At least it looks more active than the time it takes to wait for the PvP queue and when the match starts there is not much to expect from it. On average I would say team members in a PUG fractal run are more competent at fractals than PvP team members are at PvP and I've not had much encounters with AFK people in fractals.

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:I'm not sure content that one doesn't care for mean it "doesn't count". WvW has had some updates over the years, and recently added Gliding and a Mount.

I don't sPvP, so I don't know what's been changed other than Stronghold (which does count).

Most recent thing should Djinn's Dominion which is a new Conquest map

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@Glider.5792 said:

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:I'm not sure content that one doesn't care for mean it "doesn't count". WvW has had some updates over the years, and recently added Gliding and a Mount.

I don't sPvP, so I don't know what's been changed other than Stronghold (which does count).

How is gliding in WvW a recent change ? It came out 2 years ago...Is Siren's Reef also a recent map ?

PvP got few new maps, but nothing in regard of "play a different game mode". Most "recent" addition was Djinns Dominion map i guess, which came out 1.5 year ago, and the Asura arena (2v2) which noone realy plays, cause there is no gamemode that supports it (except custom games, which noone plays).

Pretty sure OP said nothing new in 7 years. Yep, re-read the OP; still says nothing new for either mode in 7 years.Two years is recent over 7 years.

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@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Is there a reason, financial or technical? Are the populations of raiders and t4 fractal players really so much greater than those of pvp and wvw? How come they get new content yet pvp and wvw get nothing for years. If i understand this games playerbase correctly, the vast majority only really do casual pve, so why have so much focus on new raids and fractals? 7 years of 3 point conquest in pvp, 7 years and 1 new wvw map. I get that they are slow to release, but at least raids and fractals get anything at all. Using the excuse that "pvp content comes from fighting other players" doesnt justify the neglect that wvw and pvp have been shown. Having one gamemode in a pvp game like this is pathetic (stronghold doesnt count), and having no new maps in a large scale wvw game makes it become incredibly stale.

Fractal and raid players do not get much more content than PvP. The last few years it has been 1 raid every 9 months and about 2 fractals per year, with a fractal rework here and there. Also fractals tend to be pretty short as far as instanced PvE content goes. There is no raid and fractal focus when it comes to content. What you should be asking is why balancing focuses so much on raids. Raids are already one of the most balanced areas of the game, but they are also played the least. In addition, balance is much more important when you are facing other players, which means that PvP and WvW should be the absolute greatest priority when it comes to the balance patches. Balancing and new specs is also the primary content of these modes, since not only do you play something new, but you also play against opponents that have different moves.

Getting another new circlequest map doesn't add much to your gameplay. It would be better if they added a new game mode, though the population is not enough because of... you guessed it, bad balance and a stale meta. In WvW it would be nice if they added another borderland, but it's a lot of work and they have to make sure they get it right. If they don't get it right all the WvWers will complain and will prefer to have the Alpine borderlands back.

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I don’t really understand why people complain about the state of balance in sPvP. It almost sounds like people expect the impossible from ANet (perfectly balanced game with so many classes and builds that feel different to each other). This is a mode designed for 5v5 clashes and that means not every build or even class will be designed for 1v1 duels were only skill matter. Is this what people want? To have every spec and class equally good for 1v1 and group fights? Then we might as well leave out only one class, because it’s physically impossible.

To me it sounds more like people can’t acknowledge that they are not good enough and look for other reasons to blame. I played many other MMORPGs and besides GW1 this is the only game I know that gives equal chances in PvP to everyone, because armor and stat values are the same for both new players and veterans (even GW1 was less fair in that way). In other MMOs newcomers are a punching bags until they grind their way towards better gear rewards. Here they have the same opportunity to practice their skills and become just as good. GW2 sPvP is all about build and skill, no additional gear grind. It’s also normal that some builds or even classes are better at dealing with certain other builds, classes and situations. This is how it should work; this is why we have 5v5 and not 1v1 modes.

I came back last year to this game and since then I only had very few moments where I literally felt powerless (no matter how good I was, I wouldn’t be able to win a duel or a group fight), but for the most part I blamed myself for losing. It helped me a lot and I advise you the same. Don’t give up - adapt and fight your way to the top.

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I suspect part of the reason WvW so rarely gets new maps is because when one has been added WvW players hate and avoid it. When Edge of the Mists was being developed it was tested by WvW guilds and apparently got some really good feedback, with lots of excitement about the new mechanics like destructible bridges and different power-ups at different keeps. But when it was released it was almost immediately declared a "PvE" map for karma farming and nothing any self-respecting WvW player would ever have anything to do with.

Then the Desert Borderlands were added, again introducing new mechanics (some from Edge of the Mists, some entirely new) and WvW players complained so much the planned rotation system and the idea of adding further new maps was scrapped and it became one optional Borderlands which is almost always the least populated.

Honestly after that I'm not surprised Anet are in no rush to create any more new WvW maps for players to complain about and avoid. (As you may be able to tell I'm disappointed - I actually prefer the Desert Borderlands and I'd like to see more of a variety of maps because running around and around the same 3 places (counting the two Alpine Borderlands as 1) taking over the same keeps and towers and camps over and over gets boring. But I can understand that it's just not worth the time and effort required for something the majority of the target audience refuses to play.)

About the only changes to WvW which have been tolerated are the addition of reward tracks and WvW abilities, so I suspect that's the route any future development will take - adding small, optional mechanics one at a time so players have plenty of time to get used to the change.

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There seem to be some kind of misconception.

Strictly PvP is any kind of activity where you compete against other players. This include sPvP, WvW and numerous activities/mini-game that you can find in PvE (survival game, "sport" game, races... etc.).

  • WvW is a gamemode which could have been qualified as "whole" at release, unfortunately any addition to the gamemode end up trivializing some part of the gamemode and lowering gameplay diversity and strategy. In itself, I'd say that WvW is a gamemode which is better off without content added.
  • sPvP is a gamemode that can't have to many variations because it need a set of rules and players despite their claims tend to favor the comfort zone of a map they know well (Let's be honest, players aren't fond of any new map they introduce or any additional mechanisms which is why underwater content disappeared from sPvP and generally new maps are avoided). What impact the most sPvP is balance change which try shake a cristalized meta to throw players toward new direction (And let's face it, it always come with heaps of drama)
  • The core PvE game have inbuilt PvP and more PvP activities along with the living world and based on the season. HoT and PoF added their share of PvP activities on which players can compete against each other (Races gaining more and more variety with each x-pac). The strong point of the PvP activities is that it's not shaken by balance patchs and only rely on player skills.

So to say that there was no new PvP content in 7 years is a bit off. In fact ANet introduced a lot of variety into PvP, it's just that they didn't linked it to the sPvP lobby because they don't fit the sPvP rules which revolve around capturing point. So if you're tired to capture points, know that you can still fight against player in survival games, play a football-like game, race against players, have a shooting competition, or quite a lot of mini game where you can prove your player skill and strategical superiority to other players without being hindered by balance patchs or restricted by a meta. And what's fun is that ANet continue to flood PvE with all this PvP content again and again.

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@Omernon.9762 said:I don’t really understand why people complain about the state of balance in sPvP. It almost sounds like people expect the impossible from ANet (perfectly balanced game with so many classes and builds that feel different to each other). This is a mode designed for 5v5 clashes and that means not every build or even class will be designed for 1v1 duels were only skill matter. Is this what people want? To have every spec and class equally good for 1v1 and group fights? Then we might as well leave out only one class, because it’s physically impossible.

To me it sounds more like people can’t acknowledge that they are not good enough and look for other reasons to blame. I played many other MMORPGs and besides GW1 this is the only game I know that gives equal chances in PvP to everyone, because armor and stat values are the same for both new players and veterans (even GW1 was less fair in that way). In other MMOs newcomers are a punching bags until they grind their way towards better gear rewards. Here they have the same opportunity to practice their skills and become just as good. GW2 sPvP is all about build and skill, no additional gear grind. It’s also normal that some builds or even classes are better at dealing with certain other builds, classes and situations. This is how it should work; this is why we have 5v5 and not 1v1 modes.

I came back last year to this game and since then I only had very few moments where I literally felt powerless (no matter how good I was, I wouldn’t be able to win a duel or a group fight), but for the most part I blamed myself for losing. It helped me a lot and I advise you the same. Don’t give up - adapt and fight your way to the top.

While I certainly agree with you to some extent, I think there are also times when certain builds are poorly balanced and are extremely unenjoyable to fight. For example turret engineer back before HoT launched was not the strongest build in the metagame, but it was painfully easy to play, very popular as a result, and extremely boring and irritating to play against. There's that aspect to balancing as well, although it can be difficult to distinguish between something being genuinely bad for the game mode, and people just being salty about not being able to beat something.

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@Cameron.6450 said:

@Omernon.9762 said:I don’t really understand why people complain about the state of balance in sPvP. It almost sounds like people expect the impossible from ANet (perfectly balanced game with so many classes and builds that feel different to each other). This is a mode designed for 5v5 clashes and that means not every build or even class will be designed for 1v1 duels were only skill matter. Is this what people want? To have every spec and class equally good for 1v1 and group fights? Then we might as well leave out only one class, because it’s physically impossible.

To me it sounds more like people can’t acknowledge that they are not good enough and look for other reasons to blame. I played many other MMORPGs and besides GW1 this is the only game I know that gives equal chances in PvP to everyone, because armor and stat values are the same for both new players and veterans (even GW1 was less fair in that way). In other MMOs newcomers are a punching bags until they grind their way towards better gear rewards. Here they have the same opportunity to practice their skills and become just as good. GW2 sPvP is all about build and skill, no additional gear grind. It’s also normal that some builds or even classes are better at dealing with certain other builds, classes and situations. This is how it should work; this is why we have 5v5 and not 1v1 modes.

I came back last year to this game and since then I only had very few moments where I literally felt powerless (no matter how good I was, I wouldn’t be able to win a duel or a group fight), but for the most part I blamed myself for losing. It helped me a lot and I advise you the same. Don’t give up - adapt and fight your way to the top.

While I certainly agree with you to some extent, I think there are also times when certain builds are poorly balanced and are extremely unenjoyable to fight. For example turret engineer back before HoT launched was not the strongest build in the metagame, but it was painfully easy to play, very popular as a result, and extremely boring and irritating to play against. There's that aspect to balancing as well, although it can be difficult to distinguish between something being genuinely bad for the game mode, and people just being salty about not being able to beat something.

True. Recent bunker scrapper was also annoying to play against and I'm not saying that the PvP doesn't need balance tweaks here and there, but the thing is it's never going to be perfect for everyone. Meta is always changing and I'm actually glad it does, because it's not stale and no build rules forever. With all its flaws, I'll take it over WoW's system where you grind gear for months just to realize at the end that your class is useless in Arenas outside of spec you don't enjoy playing as.

@Vavume.8065 said:

@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Having one gamemode in a pvp game like this is pathetic (stronghold doesnt count)

100% agree, conquest is so boring, capture the flag on a large map would be so much more fun. (Warsong Gultch I remember you)

The issue I see with more game modes is that you will spread already low PvP playerbase across even more game modes. Most PvE players won't even touch these modes no matter how good and "balanced" they are...

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Well, sometimes you got to wonder about things...

Think of the warclaw introduction in WvW. All this time, tons of patches. Many big changes.

Yet... they cannot take the probably 1 minute it requires to change the high base hp of the warclaw from 11K to the lower base hp (6K or whatever it is) that already exist on other mounts (griffon, skyscale), thus placating like... 100% of WvWers. No one will argue this change. I dont even care about it and down mounts just fine now and I still wouldnt argue.

But they apparently cant do it.

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@beatthedown.2651 said:The real question would be, why LW is getting this much attention. Are players who log in every three months to play the story really spending that much gems?

well, there is also a fact that if you do not login in time, you gotta buy chapters if you want to experience a story. I am sure Anet gains a lot more money with this move than we think they do.

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@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Is there a reason, financial or technical? Are the populations of raiders and t4 fractal players really so much greater than those of pvp and wvw? How come they get new content yet pvp and wvw get nothing for years.

Nothing is a strong word. You not liking what pvp and wvw get, doesn't mean they get nothing.

If i understand this games playerbase correctly, the vast majority only really do casual pve, so why have so much focus on new raids and fractals?

A raid every 10 months is "so much focus" now? Another weird choice of words.

7 years of 3 point conquest in pvp, 7 years and 1 new wvw map. I get that they are slow to release, but at least raids and fractals get anything at all. Using the excuse that "pvp content comes from fighting other players" doesnt justify the neglect that wvw and pvp have been shown. Having one gamemode in a pvp game like this is pathetic (stronghold doesnt count), and having no new maps in a large scale wvw game makes it become incredibly stale.

They added 10 new maps to PVP over the last 7 years. For reference, the game started with only 3 maps, 4 if you count the deleted capricorn map (that was completely changed). They added 2 new game modes, deathmatch and stronghold. More than a few complete revamps of the rewards, ascended/legendary rewards and others.

They added 2 new WVW maps, not one. Edge of the Mists is a WVW map. New mastery abilities, a new mount, and of course just like PVP a multitude of reward revamps.

You know what most of these have in common? Poor reception. Anything added to PVP/WVW is written off by the hardcore fans of the mode, because while they ask for more, in reality they expect more of the same. "I don't like extra objectives in conquest, just give us more of the same! I don't like more complex WVW maps I just want more open maps for big fights!" very common arguments. Please add new maps to the mode, but they must play exactly as the old ones. Why bother then?

And the second problem, after reception, is the poor monetization of PVP and WVW. You can play both perfectly without ever buying an expansion for example. They try to fix this "issue", enticing players to buy expansions by adding gliding in WVW (that requires Heart of Thorns), or the addition of the Warclaw mount (that requires Path of Fire) but, as expected, those have poor reception too. "It's pay to win because I can't keep up with the mount" is a common argument against the Warclaw, yes that's why the "mode" isn't monetized well.

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@Mikali.9651 said:

@beatthedown.2651 said:The real question would be, why LW is getting this much attention. Are players who log in every three months to play the story really spending that much gems?

well, there is also a fact that if you do not login in time, you gotta buy chapters if you want to experience a story. I am sure Anet gains a lot more money with this move than we think they do.

Yeah that might just be the case. Especially with new players. LW would probably hard to justify if it's completely unprofitable. But redirecting that effort towards expansions, while improving endgame modes seems much more appealing to me as a player.

LW is such a bad concept. The hype for an episode is never going to reach anyone outside of the established playerbase. Just look up Google trends. Even POF, an expansion that was very poorly marketed, got decent attention. As I mentioned, only Anet knows the numbers, but looking at the state of the game, there is definetely room for improvement.

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@"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:Is there a reason, financial or technical? Are the populations of raiders and t4 fractal players really so much greater than those of pvp and wvw? How come they get new content yet pvp and wvw get nothing for years. If i understand this games playerbase correctly, the vast majority only really do casual pve, so why have so much focus on new raids and fractals? 7 years of 3 point conquest in pvp, 7 years and 1 new wvw map. I get that they are slow to release, but at least raids and fractals get anything at all. Using the excuse that "pvp content comes from fighting other players" doesnt justify the neglect that wvw and pvp have been shown. Having one gamemode in a pvp game like this is pathetic (stronghold doesnt count), and having no new maps in a large scale wvw game makes it become incredibly stale.

Yes so funny.

So are we ignoring how PvP not to long ago got a pvp map Djinn's Dominion. Thats "content" for you is it not?PvP also has daily and monthy ATs which is in a sense automated content and also "another" gamemode.

You complain about the lack of new maps in wvw? Remember the addition of the desert borderlands from HoT? Remember how wvw players generally dislike the map?Also WvW got the addition of the warclaw not too long ago.

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@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:Pretty sure OP said nothing new in 7 years. Yep, re-read the OP; still says nothing new for either mode in 7 years.Two years is recent over 7 years.

I said 7 years of 3 point conquest, and 7 years with 1 new wvw map. Also gliding and mounts arent really "content". My mistake if I expressed myself too literally. And desipte that my point still stands, 2 years with no major content is still very bad.

@Omernon.9762 said:I don’t really understand why people complain about the state of balance in sPvP.Balance has only got worse over time. Many elite specs are poorly designed for competitive pvp, and power creep has made combat reward spamming burst combos or chaining defensive skills, and reduced the amount of counterplay possible.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

  • sPvP is a gamemode that can't have to many variations because it need a set of rules and players despite their claims tend to favor the comfort zone of a map they know well (Let's be honest, players aren't fond of any new map they introduce or any additional mechanisms which is why underwater content disappeared from sPvP and generally new maps are avoided).I would agree with this if gw2 had a very strong competitive scene with active pro players and esports, but the population is exclusively casual players, and has been for years. As long as the gamemodes are fun, it doesnt matter if they are viable in a competitive scene. This is why custom games in titles like tf2, halo, or overwatch, or battlegrounds in WoW have been so popular in the past. Just because anet did a poor job making new maps, or with underwater combat doesnt mean that gamemodes other than 3 point conquest cant be fun.

So to say that there was no new PvP content in 7 years is a bit off. In fact ANet introduced a lot of variety into PvP, it's just that they didn't linked it to the sPvP lobby because they don't fit the sPvP rules which revolve around capturing point. So if you're tired to capture points, know that you can still fight against player in survival games, play a football-like game, race against players, have a shooting competition, or quite a lot of mini game where you can prove your player skill and strategical superiority to other players without being hindered by balance patchs or restricted by a meta. And what's fun is that ANet continue to flood PvE with all this PvP content again and again.These "adventure games" hardly give the same experience, or the same level of depth as pvp combat.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

They added 10 new maps to PVP over the last 7 years. For reference, the game started with only 3 maps, 4 if you count the deleted capricorn map (that was completely changed). They added 2 new game modes, deathmatch and stronghold. More than a few complete revamps of the rewards, ascended/legendary rewards and others.

Deathmatch is not able to be queued for, meaning the majority of players never experience it. Anet has done a very poor job of making it accessible. Stronghold was a pretty big failure and is just a gimmick trying to copy a moba.

They added 2 new WVW maps, not one. Edge of the Mists is a WVW map. New mastery abilities, a new mount, and of course just like PVP a multitude of reward revampsEotM was designed to be an overflow map. Separating it from EBG and the Borderlands made it obsolete, if they had made it a BL map it probably would have been received better. Masteries and a mount are very minor updates and hardly qualify as content.

And the second problem, after reception, is the poor monetization of PVP and WVW. You can play both perfectly without ever buying an expansion for example.

You are very mistaken if you think core specs are able to hold their own vs elite specs in wvw and pvp. Yes you can play but at a huge disadvantage.

@"Kodokuna Akuma.9570" said:Yes so funny.

So are we ignoring how PvP not to long ago got a pvp map Djinn's Dominion. Thats "content" for you is it not?PvP also has daily and monthy ATs which is in a sense automated content and also "another" gamemode.

You complain about the lack of new maps in wvw? Remember the addition of the desert borderlands from HoT? Remember how wvw players generally dislike the map?Also WvW got the addition of the warclaw not too long ago.

As i have already said, pvp is almost entirely 3 point conquest, new maps are still conquest. And just because anet made a questionable map, doesnt mean the old ones cant be improved upon.

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