Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Defenders advantage is overtunedThis one is quite obvious, defending was already quite easy pre-HoT but now defenders get 800 extra stats within keeps (400 in towers), perma 25% movement speed, tactics (EWP), gliding, faster upgrading, permanent supply etc.Effect of this flaw: Discourages guilds from helping to take objectives. Open-field elitism was born from this advantage. No smart guild will fight another guild within enemy keep. Keeps can be t3d under 2 hours which is completely unreasonable regarding how hard they're to take during daytime.How to fix: Well tactics are here to stay so nerf the stats of claim buff. Nerf them to half +50 stats instead of +100, 10% movement speed is enough. Increase dolyaks required to upgrade objective to 25/50/100, a small 25% increase. Not too unreasonable considering you can get bay upgraded all the way to t3 under 2 hours now.Metabuilds are too braindead and have too short cooldownsWell it doesn't take a sherlock to notice that scourges and firebrands are obvious downgrade from fun of reapers and guardians. We have moved from meta which included 2 semi-dps guardians (celestial) in party to a party system where there is 1 healbot firebrand that spams skills (and falls asleep during combat). Stability used to not only require awareness of when your party member uses it but also it was possible for 1 person to cover for the flaws of the other. This made 1 good guardian worth more than 2 bad ones. And don't get me started on scrapper, it heals and cleanses too much.Effect of this flaw: Well the game isn't fun to play, the metabuilds are overpowering the off-meta ones in every aspect, not just having superior cooldown management. The battles which used to be decided by which commander had better movement are now about which zerg has better sustain. 1 person can't kill another provided they have a support around them thus target focusing is dead for anyone else than scourges. There used to be times when synchronizing all waterfields, wellbombs, banners, dwarf elites within voice comms and training was actually necessary for a good zerg, now calling those things out on voice comms is redundant.How to fix (edited): Add amulet system to WvW, don't include minstrel. Another option is to remove Minstrel completely from the game or nerfing most outgoing boonduration in WvW for scrapper/firebrand. Make Sand Savant trait only increase the radius around the scourge (and let them keep 3 shades), shade should be a miniwell, not additional superior well. Remove purity of purpose (scrapper trait), the boons will never end if there isn't a punishment for bad cooldown management when scourges corrupt boons and scrappers turn them back to boons.EDIT: WvW amulet system should obviously be more complex than PvPs, maybe up to a point where you choose all your piece stats separately. Main point was to get Minstrel removed from the gamemode. I don't mind the current gear system, just existance of pure supports is destroying the meta too much. I have given up on the idea of amulet system because I forgot about existance of WvW legendary armor at the time of writing this. I just figured more complex PvP stat system where supports can't get full defensive stats would be better than PvE system.Desert mapWell the map is reducing WvW activity. Not only the existance of it makes some matchups completely pointless because there exists servers that completely loathe the map and don't play it (f/e whiteside ridge), but it also has half the kills of any existing map ON ANY MATCHUP. This means people spend approximately 5-6 times more time on alpine maps and the active hours would actually increase by giving these people more options rather than catering to 2-5 headed minority on each server that prefers the empty desert.Effect of this flaw: One less map to play on. We all know one or two maps are often unplayable if you want to have fun because 1 server has either strange timezones (f/e baruch bay) or one side is so much stronger that going to their map is a suicide. Desert map is unplayable most of the time due to community shunning it pushing the amount of options players have to almost none. 2 alpine maps isn't enough. Red map decides most of the points from the borderlands, either red side doesn't care about it and loses the matchup or gets it upgraded fully for whole week.How to fix: Remove desert map, it is that simple. It has the lowest activity by far and even the times some commander/guild goes there, most people within the group prefer alpine map.Watchtower tacticUnfortunately the tactic has too large of a radius up to a point where it kills roaming and makes people lazy. Current iteration also punishes new players and guilds too hard.How to fix: Nerf watchtower tactic so that it only detects siege weapons. Key points of roaming like Danelon, Rogues quarry and Pangloss rise are completely covered by the towers. Not to mention you can't have small fights near enemy tower because soon cavalry will arrive due to the red dots. Scouts would regain some of the importance of the job back as camp defenders rather than relying on the tactics too much. Siege GeneratorsWell they counter everything from omegas (up to a point where using alphas/guild golems is better), trebs, catas, ballistas, acs. Attacking is too simple, build 6+ golems and build shield gens, you will be in objective, no brain necessary.How to fix: Make the bubble pulse protection in addition to stability in area and not block siege projectiles. Protection is enough to protect from AC fire. You should be able to still be able to treb rams behind bubbles. Ballistas will be relevant again. Shield generator should become a tool to block disablers and projectiles while providing boons. It doesn't need to be counter-of-all-siege in addition to that.ADDED;Hey you! Don't forget browsing through the comments that people who are still playing the game and being on the forums actively have better opinion about the current state of the game, siege and maps while not yet having good nights sleep to think about effect of these things yet. But what I brought up were the apparent reasons that people quit the game and will quit the game. None of the roamers, scouts, guilds, commanders or blobbers were excluded. Try to see each point from another perspective, include thoughts like Why did/do they play WvW, would this be more fun to some style of play, would the changes bring more meaningful decisions to WvW? Is the current system of siege/maps/matchups balanced to all sides? Your opinion shouldn't be hastily formed and you should also consider how WvW community will adapt to the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenPants.1870 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 The only point I agree on is the amulet one.. But all stats, none excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calisanna.8732 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 I actually prefer desert map and know many guilds and roomers that do as well. “Pointless” is the opinion of some, not all. Mounts have helped some traverse the map quicker. The problem is that most people don’t take the time to learn the map. People get lost or hate defending it. I’ve had many fun fights on red bl.I would actually enjoy one of the alpine maps to change to something different. Variety is always nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Threather.9354 said:Defenders advantage is overtunedThis one is quite obvious, defending was already quite easy pre-HoT but now defenders get 800 extra stats within keeps (400 in towers), perma 25% movement speed, tactics (EWP), gliding, faster upgrading, permanent supply etc.Effect of this flaw: Discourages guilds from helping to take objectives. Open-field elitism was born from this advantage. No smart guild will fight another guild within enemy keep. Keeps can be t3d under 2 hours which is completely unreasonable regarding how hard they're to take during daytime.How to fix: Well tactics are here to stay so nerf the stats of claim buff. Nerf them to half +50 stats instead of +100, 10% movement speed is enough. Increase dolyaks required to upgrade objective to 25/50/100, a small 25% increase. Not too unreasonable considering you can get bay upgraded all the way to t3 under 2 hours now.Metabuilds are too braindead and have too short cooldownsWell it doesn't take a sherlock to notice that scourges and firebrands are obvious downgrade from fun of reapers and guardians. We have moved from meta which included 2 semi-dps guardians (celestial) in party to a party system where there is 1 healbot firebrand that spams skills (and falls asleep during combat). Stability used to not only require awareness of when your party member uses it but also it was possible for 1 person to cover for the flaws of the other. This made 1 good guardian worth more than 2 bad ones. And don't get me started on scrapper, it heals and cleanses too much.Effect of this flaw: Well the game isn't fun to play, the metabuilds are overpowering the off-meta ones in every aspect, not just having superior cooldown management. The battles which used to be decided by which commander had better movement are now about which zerg has better sustain. 1 person can't kill another provided they have a support around them thus target focusing is dead for anyone else than scourges. There used to be times when synchronizing all waterfields, wellbombs, banners, dwarf elites within voice comms and training was actually necessary for a good zerg, now calling those things out on voice comms is redundant.How to fix: Add amulet system to WvW, don't include minstrel. Another option is to remove Minstrel completely from the game or nerfing most outgoing boonduration in WvW for scrapper/firebrand. Make Sand Savant trait only increase the radius around the scourge (and let them keep 3 shades), shade should be a miniwell, not additional superior well. Remove purity of purpose (scrapper trait), the boons will never end if there isn't a punishment for bad cooldown management when scourges corrupt boons and scrappers turn them back to boons.Desert mapWell the map is pointless. Not only the existance of it makes some matchups completely pointless because there exists servers that completely loathe the map and don't play it (f/e whiteside ridge), but it also has half the kills of any existing map ON ANY MATCHUP. This means people spend approximately 5-6 times more time on alpine maps and the active hours would actually increase by giving these people more options rather than catering to 2-5 headed minority on each server that prefers the empty desert.Effect of this flaw: One less map to play on. We all know one or two maps are often unplayable if you want to have fun because 1 server has either strange timezones (f/e baruch bay) or one side is so much stronger that going to their map is a suicide. Desert map is unplayable most of the time due to community shunning it pushing the amount of options players have to almost none. 2 alpine maps isn't enough. Red map decides most of the points from the borderlands, either red side doesn't care about it and loses the matchup or gets it upgraded fully for whole week.How to fix: Remove desert map, it is that simple. It has the lowest activity by far and even the times some commander/guild goes there, most people within the group prefer alpine map.Watchtower tacticUnfortunately the tactic has too large of a radius up to a point where it kills roaming and makes people lazy. Current iteration also punishes new players and guilds too hard.How to fix: Nerf watchtower tactic so that it only detects siege weapons. Key points of roaming like Danelon, Rogues quarry and Pangloss rise are completely covered by the towers. Not to mention you can't have small fights near enemy tower because soon cavalry will arrive due to the red dots. Scouts would regain some of the importance of the job back as camp defenders rather than relying on the tactics too much. Siege GeneratorsWell they counter everything from omegas (up to a point where using alphas/guild golems is better), trebs, catas, ballistas, acs. Attacking is too simple, build 6+ golems and build shield gens, you will be in objective, no brain necessary.How to fix: Make the bubble pulse protection in addition to stability in area and not block siege projectiles. Protection is enough to protect from AC fire. You should be able to still be able to treb rams behind bubbles. Ballistas will be relevant again. Shield generator should become a tool to block disablers and projectiles while providing boons. It doesn't need to be counter-of-all-siege in addition to that.You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Threather.9354 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus.Wouldn’t matter if you put 12 items unless it’s an optional thing and exotic level.It isn’t hard to get ascended anymore.And it isn’t hard to swap stats on ascended.This change would make the work I've done towards my legendary armor specifically for WvW a waste of time and money. I could give a flip about skins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zikory.6871 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 I absolutely love that my server hates Red map. It's an oasis when there is no guilds to fight. Why chase ppters when we can post up in garri and let them come to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Calisanna.8732 said:I actually prefer desert map and know many guilds and roomers that do as well. “Pointless” is the opinion of some, not all. Mounts have helped some traverse the map quicker. The problem is that most people don’t take the time to learn the map. People get lost or hate defending it. I’ve had many fun fights on red bl.I would actually enjoy one of the alpine maps to change to something different. Variety is always nice. I learnt the map, I agree the map can be good if it was more popular. But I have been part of multiple guilds and commanded a bunch and tbh existance of the map is an eyesore.My main issue with the map is that some servers on EU don't play it AT ALL making some matchups completely irrelevant. In those matchups if there is ever a moment fighting enemy is unsavory, you can't ppt either because it doesn't matter due to existance of this map.I can understand if you play one day here and there without caring about the points or fights much, just chillaxing around, the desert map is tolerable but it just breaks the whole purpose of the gamemode atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Strider Pj.2193 said:@Threather.9354 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus.Wouldn’t matter if you put 12 items unless it’s an optional thing and exotic level.It isn’t hard to get ascended anymore.And it isn’t hard to swap stats on ascended.This change would make the work I've done towards my legendary armor specifically for WvW a waste of time and money. I could give a flip about skins.Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Threather.9354 said:@Strider Pj.2193 said:@Threather.9354 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus.Wouldn’t matter if you put 12 items unless it’s an optional thing and exotic level.It isn’t hard to get ascended anymore.And it isn’t hard to swap stats on ascended.This change would make the work I've done towards my legendary armor specifically for WvW a waste of time and money. I could give a flip about skins.Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well.I’ve built a minstrel ascended heavy set, but never used it. I.... just can’t play like that....Even when I go into healing for ele I can’t use minstrel... Even if my main focus is to heal, I feel like I need to hit people with more than a feather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Threather.9354 said:Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well.You can make the same arguments against Trailblazer and Marauder, but as has already been stated, the amount of time and effort WvW'ers have put into their gear makes it highly unlikely that ANET would launch an update replacing all of that with an amulet system, especially as some players don't even PvE, so if they can't use that armor in WvW, it effectively becomes worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calisanna.8732 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Threather.9354 said:@Calisanna.8732 said:I actually prefer desert map and know many guilds and roomers that do as well. “Pointless” is the opinion of some, not all. Mounts have helped some traverse the map quicker. The problem is that most people don’t take the time to learn the map. People get lost or hate defending it. I’ve had many fun fights on red bl.I would actually enjoy one of the alpine maps to change to something different. Variety is always nice. I learnt the map, I agree the map can be good if it was more popular. But I have been part of multiple guilds and commanded a bunch and tbh existance of the map is an eyesore.My main issue with the map is that some servers on EU don't play it AT ALL making some matchups completely irrelevant. In those matchups if there is ever a moment fighting enemy is unsavory, you can't ppt either because it doesn't matter due to existance of this map.I can understand if you play one day here and there without caring about the points or fights much, just chillaxing around, the desert map is tolerable but it just breaks the whole purpose of the gamemode.I’m not on Eu but on Na we have some guild servers that hate it as well. As for the guilds I’m in between my three accounts, they all tend to love it. Just sucks when we have a like that refused to defend it. I do play daily and with guilds that chillax and with more serious ones. Recently the goal on one of the severs I’m on in T4 was to take second as to force the other server into red bl. So tactically it can be used as well. Again, I’m not in EU. My suggestion would be try to get some coordination at your server meetings. Find the guilds on your server who do enjoy the bl. Have them be the defenders and responders. As for ppt on the map, it’s really good for flipping t3 items if the other servers don’t want to defend it. Great for your score. Best of luck. Maybe some ppl will step up to play on the bl more. ❤️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord.8190 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 WvW went downhill with HoT, no doubt. The WvW team is clueless. I just want to remove all the unbalanced defender's advantage garbage they added with HoT and the game would be much better. Keep aura buff and bloodlust buff. It's a very bad game design which leads to stale boring scenarios where people don't even try taking keeps anymore. Roaming is now pretty much dead because of all the sensor towers and mounts that make the enemy blob able to react faster and avoid fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Calisanna.8732 said:@Threather.9354 said:@Calisanna.8732 said:I actually prefer desert map and know many guilds and roomers that do as well. “Pointless” is the opinion of some, not all. Mounts have helped some traverse the map quicker. The problem is that most people don’t take the time to learn the map. People get lost or hate defending it. I’ve had many fun fights on red bl.I would actually enjoy one of the alpine maps to change to something different. Variety is always nice. I learnt the map, I agree the map can be good if it was more popular. But I have been part of multiple guilds and commanded a bunch and tbh existance of the map is an eyesore.My main issue with the map is that some servers on EU don't play it AT ALL making some matchups completely irrelevant. In those matchups if there is ever a moment fighting enemy is unsavory, you can't ppt either because it doesn't matter due to existance of this map.I can understand if you play one day here and there without caring about the points or fights much, just chillaxing around, the desert map is tolerable but it just breaks the whole purpose of the gamemode.I’m not on Eu but on Na we have some guild servers that hate it as well. As for the guilds I’m in between my three accounts, they all tend to love it. Just sucks when we have a like that refused to defend it. I do play daily and with guilds that chillax and with more serious ones. Recently the goal on one of the severs I’m on in T4 was to take second as to force the other server into red bl. So tactically it can be used as well. Again, I’m not in EU. My suggestion would be try to get some coordination at your server meetings. Find the guilds on your server who do enjoy the bl. Have them be the defenders and responders. As for ppt on the map, it’s really good for flipping t3 items if the other servers don’t want to defend it. Great for your score. Best of luck. Maybe some ppl will step up to play on the bl more. ❤️No my issue is not my servers activity in desert maps, it is the other servers. I play the map to reset enemy objectives and defend it when it is ours. My issue is more of lack of people and fight commanders there while some enemy servers are not playing it at all. This isn't my personal issue with the map, it is the WvW community dying because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Turkeyspit.3965 said:@Threather.9354 said:Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well.You can make the same arguments against Trailblazer and Marauder, but as has already been stated, the amount of time and effort WvW'ers have put into their gear makes it highly unlikely that ANET would launch an update replacing all of that with an amulet system, especially as some players don't even PvE, so if they can't use that armor in WvW, it effectively becomes worthless.Its ok, my heart knows that amulet system would take them 2 years to implement anyways. I just thought it was most reasonable solution to removal of Minstrel stats that don't fit any PvP mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Don't care about this point, as keeps take 2+ hours to upgrade, depending how often camps and yaks are getting harassed, but can be busted and capped in 10 mins or 3 hours, it just depends on the time coverage/zerg size/tactics/preparedness/desieging/sustain available, whether or not the defenders have siege, scouts, or players that bother to show up. Siege is also near useless already on big groups, especially the heavy sustain boon groups. Frankly a keep should be HARD to take especially when upgraded, the whole point is to give the defensive side advantages to protect their waypoint. They didn't build castles in medieval times to just be fancy houses. The towers are the outer rings that can already be ktrained.Too much kitten to discuss on this topic, and it's been discussed so many times before in hundreds of threads, bottom line is anet is not going to listen, pve first, don't bother.Meh desert bl, long history of complaints. I personally still don't like it to this day, I don't step foot into it unless I really have to for defensive calls on keeps. But some people do like it so it deserves a place, just wish it was more random to which side gets it rather than always being red team which is usually the weakest team. Having said that, wvw is at a point where maybe it needs to go down a map from 4 to 3 for matches, although not entirely possible without work from anet to convert alpine and desert into ebg type maps, so basically not possible at all since anet won't put the work into that.Watch tower for siege only, is very interesting. But there's already many places to siege with cata and of course trebs out of range of towers. There's also many places to go to avoid being detected from watch towers, so players either don't care or are too lazy to take the longer way. So basically pointless change.Shield gens, should have never been introduced into gw2, what a terrible terribad terrifoolish idea to implement without proper counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @"XenesisII.1540" said:Watch tower for siege only, is very interesting. But there's already many places to siege with cata and of course trebs out of range of towers. There's also many places to go to avoid being detected from watch towers, so players either don't care or are too lazy to take the longer way. So basically pointless change.If you read my reasoning it is because watchtowers reduce amount of small fights and punish new players. Also lets be honest, scouting died with introduction of it.I do know about the cata/treb spots that exist outside the watchtower so its not like I disregarded them when I suggested the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 It killed sneaking towers with small groups for sure, as my group use to sneak cap t3 towers and keeps all the time before HoT with 5-7 people. Still plenty of places to get small fights, but not as many players willing to do small fights, many just want to blob you down for a kill.... Also new players need to learn and get better, I don't think we should be nerfing stuff for their sakes, plus they also got their mounts to move around safely even when detected.On another note about desert, it's funny how the map was designed for more chokes and to break up zergs, and yet a boon sharing zerg is perfect for those chokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @XenesisII.1540 said:It killed sneaking towers with small groups for sure, as my group use to sneak cap t3 towers and keeps all the time before HoT with 5-7 people. Still plenty of places to get small fights, but not as many players willing to do small fights, many just want to blob you down for a kill.... Also new players need to learn and get better, I don't think we should be nerfing stuff for their sakes, plus they also got their mounts to move around safely even when detected.On another note about desert, it's funny how the map was designed for more chokes and to break up zergs, and yet a boon sharing zerg is perfect for those chokes.Nerf of watchtower would bring back roamers vs scouts regarding taking and defending camps. Also solo/duo roamers can just have fun on discord rather than being on their toes all the time when they take wrong step to a sentry/tower and get zerged down by 15 people waiting for commander. I can understand that people that play the game everyday can pay attention to likes of watchtower everytime but majority of WvW community didn't use to be like that. They play occassionally.Epic small fights near Ogrewatch, langor would be back. And well 1 random clueless dude wouldn't be able to ruin peoples plans of taking something by walking into the watchtower. Not to mention PPT and PvE groups would play more WvW giving more fights. They don't have to do the same sneak catas for Sunnyhill due to watchtower everytime walking all the way around but they can be creative and free. Not to mention even if you outsmart the enemy at sunnyhill with sneaky catas, one wrong step and they will make it in time to defend the tower due to red dots despite being oblivious of you being there until you took the wall down.There are lot of upsides to watchtower change that will bring WvW more alive from the gutter state it is in atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subversiontwo.7501 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 This thread is very typical for WvW these days because I believe that Threater is mostly right in what he is pointing out but the suggestions are either problematic or not far-reaching enough.It's symptomatic of Anet choosing to go down a path of counterbalancing broken things with other broken things rather than nerfing what needs to be nerfed and buffing what needs to be buffed as well as having trouble with balance in their different game modes, not being able to keep up, split enough abilities or have solid enough a strategy with how to pair and adress the balance in the modes (ie., what balance in which modes work together and what does not, there does not seem to be plan for that, it's more so focusing on certain things at a time and letting others fall out of focus and out of balance). We see that in balance patches when there is a swath of changes for one specific game mode and then there's suddenly some odd out-of-place change or two motivated by another game mode. They would, for example, do much better pairing up modes either per environment (PvP open/instanced and PvE open/instanced) or per scale (open PvE/PvP and instanced PvE/PvP) and try to find common balance points there.More examples: Streamlined and built-to-fit stats like Minstrel are indeed somewhat braindead but at the same time it's not like we have a tank meta or that Anet has an easy time balancing all the systems they have thrown into the game. So while, yes, in a complete overhaul WvW would benefit from comming back to a state where builds are built by balancing different types of gear around different stats, minstrel being onedimensional for the classes that wear it and so forth. But, it wouldn't make the game better to just remove it in an environment where crit traits have become ridiculous, spam of "non-base stat effects" is everywhere and the game is pushed towards legendary selection of stats where Anet would have even more trouble balancing vanilla types of stat selection with HoT and PoF selections of traits and specs, when they already seemingly have trouble managing things as they are.The same goes for things like Purity of purpose and/or antitoxin runes as well as concentration stats. The game would benefit from scaling everything back but it's not like it would benefit from making conditions more prevalent in larger scale fights again and while there is a general overstack of boons, there is simply not enough stability, hence the damn pirate ships. The only thing more boring than a stale pirate ship meta is a stale condi pirate ship meta like those around the PoF release. Eugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 my 2c:The boons + conditions meta is out of whack: There are tons of boons(usually applied by firebrand), which everyone then corrupts with scourge, which then get un-corrupted by scrapper, then re-corrupted by scourge again, then uncorrupted, and on and on and on. This goes on constantly in a fight.Only ranged aoe dps are viable (+ FB and Scrap supports) Projectiles? Nope. A single reflect bubble counters projectiles from an entire enemy squad. Conditions? nope. they get lost in the corrupt/convert cycle (see last point). Single-target damage? nope. inefficient. Melee? nope. Gets bombed by ranged aoe too hard. Other support classes? nope. gotta be on FB or scrapper for stab + conversion.A general lack of care about winning - To be clear, this isn't really the players' fault, but there is (at least in NA) only one server that really cares about winning. Most servers win or lose simply due to population differences in various timezones and don't actively try very hard. Why should they? What do they get? The only time people make pushes to win or lose the matchup is when they want to fight or avoid another server next week.@subversiontwo.7501 said:The same goes for things like Purity of purpose and/or antitoxin runes as well as concentration stats. The game would benefit from scaling everything back but it's not like it would benefit from making conditions more prevalent in larger scale fights again and while there is a general overstack of boons, there is simply not enough stability, hence the kitten pirate ships. The only thing more boring than a stale pirate ship meta is a stale condi pirate ship meta like those around the PoF release. Eugh.somewhat agree, but I'd argue conditions would be fine in group pvp now. They were a problem once, but that's because it was possible to put absurd stacks on one player and then epidemic them to everyone. That is not nearly as easy as it used to be. Currently, the vast majority of specs in the game can't play in large-scale wvw. No conditions, no projectiles, no single-target damage, and only a select few supports. That's way too narrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riba.3271 Posted August 6, 2019 Author Share Posted August 6, 2019 @"subversiontwo.7501" said:The same goes for things like Purity of purpose and/or antitoxin runes as well as concentration stats. The game would benefit from scaling everything back but it's not like it would benefit from making conditions more prevalent in larger scale fights again and while there is a general overstack of boons, there is simply not enough stability, hence the kitten pirate ships. The only thing more boring than a stale pirate ship meta is a stale condi pirate ship meta like those around the PoF release. Eugh.There are tools in the meta to fight both conditions and pirateship even if purity of purpose and minstrel are removed. You can simply add another firebrand in party or run melee tempest/shout spellbreaker that cleanse about the same amount of scrapper, they just don't convert them to boons. Dwarf elite will still give you way more defenses than minstrel gear would. What I am suggesting by removal of minstrel (or reducing support in general) is return to HoTish meta where minstrel wasn't the go to for supports and pushes were possible but you needed to coordinate dwarf elite, stability, resistance etc for them to work. Pirateship should always be life of bad players that can't grow enough balls to push, dodge "wellish" AoE fields and stay near tag, not playing idiotproof minstrel firebrands and scrappers.The spellbreaker bubble problem has already been fixed by anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Threather.9354 said:I'm giving you thumbs up. The only point I disagree with is your opinion on the desert map. Let's remember that the only places you get epic defences nowadays are at the side keeps on that map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subversiontwo.7501 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @"Threather.9354" said:There are tools in the meta to fight both conditions and pirateship even if purity of purpose and minstrel are removed. You can simply add another firebrand in party or run melee tempest/shout spellbreaker that cleanse about the same amount of scrapper, they just don't convert them to boons. Dwarf elite will still give you way more defenses than minstrel gear would. What I am suggesting by removal of minstrel (or reducing support in general) is return to HoTish meta where minstrel wasn't the go to for supports and pushes were possible but you needed to coordinate dwarf elite, stability, resistance etc for them to work. Pirateship should always be life of bad players that can't grow enough balls to push, dodge "wellish" AoE fields and stay near tag, not playing idiotproof minstrel firebrands and scrappers.Spontaneously that sounds like it would only push scrappers out in favour of tempests (and if conditions become prevalent maybe a return to support mesmers) while both those classes have existing off-meta roles. Not necessarily only a bad thing but not much of a change and a trend we're already seeing anyway. It would however mean less stab from conversion and concentration with no addition of stab from elsewhere so I really do not see it promoting options even if I agree with you that there are some tools in the game to fight the meta (albeit with enough barrier to entry to keep the meta stale). The suggestion does not really highlight those tools or make them more accessible though so the mundane meta is unlikely to change for the better.The spellbreaker bubble problem has already been fixed by anet.That's mostly because they choose an inconvenience change while keeping as powerful as it was. If people learnt how to cover their breakers bubbles can still dictate fights, so it's a "fix" that depends on people being simpleminded and running oversimplified approaches. Plus, quite alot of servers do not even know to control the bubblers so even the simpleminded suicide bubbling remains effective against them. That keeps quite the margin for bubbles to remain punitive, and I'd say the only reason we hear less complaints about them now is that people seem to just stack even more shades to rip through everything and more control to stop buttons from being pushed at those critical times. That seems effective enough to keep people afraid to push :p . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 @Threather.9354 said:Nerf of watchtower would bring back roamers vs scouts regarding taking and defending camps. Also solo/duo roamers can just have fun on discord rather than being on their toes all the time when they take wrong step to a sentry/tower and get zerged down by 15 people waiting for commander. I can understand that people that play the game everyday can pay attention to likes of watchtower everytime but majority of WvW community didn't use to be like that. They play occassionally.Epic small fights near Ogrewatch, langor would be back. And well 1 random clueless dude wouldn't be able to ruin peoples plans of taking something by walking into the watchtower. Not to mention PPT and PvE groups would play more WvW giving more fights. They don't have to do the same sneak catas for Sunnyhill due to watchtower everytime walking all the way around but they can be creative and free. Not to mention even if you outsmart the enemy at sunnyhill with sneaky catas, one wrong step and they will make it in time to defend the tower due to red dots despite being oblivious of you being there until you took the wall down.There are lot of upsides to watchtower change that will bring WvW more alive from the gutter state it is in atm.Dude, that sounds more like a pay attention to the map and your surroundings problem, who gets zerged down by 15 at a sentry?. Taking out watch tower out (which takes an hour to even install do you even notice a change for people fighting around those towers in that hour?), isn't going to solve the roaming problem. Not with mounts around and not with most players too scared to even roam or duo on their on own these days because of some of the broken specs and game play out there, which affect you the entire time in wvw, not just around towers. Plenty of small fights still happen around camps, which is actually better so you don't have people constantly going in and out of towers, that gets pretty annoying.It's only a problem when you want to actually take the tower, not if you're looking for a fight cause most times you'd want to be scene or scouted to get people to come to you, unless you're chicken and just looking to gank pve people going for their nodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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