Deadeye Stolen Skills Discussion

Elxdark.9702 · October 3, 2017

Hi guys, I'd like to discuss the idea behind the stolen skills from Deadeye, address why most of them are so bad in comparison to the steal stolen skills and how to change them to make them compete against the steal skills.I think the idea behind these stolen skils is a good idea, implemented really poorly but it's a good idea overall. Right you gain a boon/effect, a tiny damage amount and you throw a condition but the execution as I have said it's simple and poorly. I like the idea of the duration increase per malice though.The goal of this thread is not to make them beyond op or broken but to make them compete against steal stolen skills.

If you haven't seen my other thread where I talk about the Deadeye spec you can comment here:Deadeye Elite DiscussionTL;DR, for that thread it's pretty much improve the malice generation rate, make mark instant and decay over time, also some buffs/changes to the trait line and rifle.

With that in mind I'll proceed to explain my own idea about stolen skills and try to make them compete against steal skills.

Thief

Steal PrecisionGain fury and blind your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Fury (6s): 20% Critical ChanceBlind (6s): Next outgoing attack misses.Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Really? a 20s cd if traited only gives you a blind and fury, you don't really need the fury because thieves have a lot of ways to get it also you have Perfectionist as well.I'm not going to talk about that damage, actually I don't consider it damage.

Blinding TuftThrow a handful of hair, vanishing in stealth and blinding nearby foes.Blind (3s): Next outgoing attack misses.Stealth (3s): Invisible to foes.Number of Targets: 5Range: 120

This is much better in every way, yes it has a cast time but it's actually useful against the class you're facing up.

Steal PrecisionGain stealth and reveal your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Stealth (3s): Invisible to foes.Reveal (3s): You cannot stealth.Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Removed blind, fury and damage, added stealth and reveal. This is actually useful against thieves as stolen skills should be, only the stealth increases per malice.

Guardian

Steal DefensesGain aegis and poison your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Aegis (5s): Block the next incoming attack.Poison (8s): 536 Damage, -33% Healing EffectivenessDuration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Aegis and poison??? Seriously Anet come on you could think a bit more, incredibly useless stolen skill.

Mace Head CrackDaze your foe.Damage: 266 (1.0)?Daze: 3sRange: 170

I can't even compare these two, I mean one gives you 0 damage aegis and poison while the other gives you good damage and a daze for 3s.

Steal DefensesGain protection and heal yourself. Duration increases for each malice stack.Protection (6s): -33% Incoming Damage.Healing: X amountHealing Increase: 10%Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

I think this fits way more the guardian class, I know your idea about these stolen skills is that they give you something and you throw something but in some classes like guardian it makes much more sense to give you DEFENSES instead of tiny amount of damage and useless conditions.

Warrior

Steal StrengthGain might and weaken your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Might (8s): +30 Power, +30 Condition DamageWeakness (8s): -50% Endurance Regeneration, 50% Fumble (Unrestricted)Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Ok fine, this one is decent. Weakness is always welcome but the 1 stack might is kind of useless it would have a lot better if it was 5-10 might stacks.

Whirling AxeSpin and attack nearby foes. You can move while spinning.Damage: 80 (0.3)?Number of Attacks: 15Combo Finisher: WhirlRange: 1,200

Good stolen skill, does a fair amount of damage and useful against projectiles also a combo finisher too, still much better than the deadeye stolen skill.

Steal StrengthGain stability and stun your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: XStability (2s): Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared or taunted.Stun : 1sDuration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

While this may be op in certain situations I think with the amount of spellbreakers this is pretty fair and it makes sense I think the idea behind stolen skills is that they give you someting useful against the class you steal from, Deadeye stolen skills don't do that and that's why they are worse than steal skills.Damage is X but it needs to be actual damage and not the hilarious thing you put in the stolen skills.

Revenant

Steal ResistanceGain resistance and apply torment on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Resistance (3s): Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration.Torment (8s): 176 Damage, 254 Damage if MovingDuration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Resistance is good, torment isn't. It's only 1 torment which is nothing.

Essence SapThrow energy at your target, slowing them.Damage: 399 (1.5)?Slow (1s): Skills and actions are slower.Range: 900

Much better stolen skill, not only because it does good damage but it also slows the target.

Steal ResistanceGain resistance and apply slow on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: XResistance (3s): Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration.Slow (2s): Skills and actions are slower.Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Slightly changes, removed torment and added slow. I see you wanted to make this stolen skill condition based because the steal one is power so I'll follow with your idea but this will be hybrid so the damage needs to be decent.

Elementalist

Steal WarmthGain vigor and chill your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Vigor (10s): +50% Endurance RegenerationChilled (3s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement SpeedDuration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

This is actually a good stolen ability it just needs to do DAMAGE.

Steal WarmthGain shocking aura and chill your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: XShocking Aura (2s): Stun nearby attacking foes with an electric shockChilled (6s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement SpeedDuration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

But I do have another idea for it. I think shocking aura fits perfectly the ele stolen skill. Increased chill duration from 3s to 6s. Also, it needs to do damage.

Mesmer

Steal TimeGain quickness and slow your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Quickness (2s): Skills and actions are faster.Slow (2s): Skills and actions are slower.Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Another good stolen skill, it feels weaker than steal because plasma is beyond op and they keep buffing it for some reason.

Consume PlasmaGain all boons.

It's just insane, and the fact you can make it x2 with improvisation it makes look the deadeye stolen skill a lot worse.

Steal TimeGain chaos armor and remove 2 boons from your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: XChaos Armor (3s): Apply a random condition to nearby foes and gain chaos armor. Chaos armor gives you random boons and your foe random conditions whenever you are struck.Boons removed: 2Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Pretty useful right? And it's not op as the steal stolen skill it gives you an advantage that you need to use in order to beat your opponent.

Necromancer

Steal HealthHeal yourself and bleed your marked target. Healing amount and duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Healing: 1,290 (0.1)?Bleeding (8s): 880 DamageHealing Increase: 10%Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Not bad it could be better but it doesn't fit the necromancer class at all.

Skull FearStrike fear into nearby foes.Fear 0 to 200 Distance (2s): Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration.Fear 200 to 400 Distance (1½s): Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration.Fear 400 to 600 Distance (1s): Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration.UnblockableRange: 600

Really good stolen skill that makes sense with the class and pretty useful in most situations.

Steal HealthGain resistance and transfer conditions to your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: XResistance (3s): Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration.Conditions Transferred: 3Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Resistance is always good against necros and you will transfer your conditions to them.Neat.

Ranger

Steal MobilityGain superspeed and immobilize your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67superspeed: 3Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Probably the best stolen skill from Deadeye.

Healing SeedGrants regeneration and removes conditions from yourself and nearby allies.Regen (3s): 390 HealRadius: 240Combo Field: Water

One of the best stolen skills from steal, even with the cd nerf it's really good.

Steal MobilityGain superspeed and immobilize your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: Xsuperspeed: 3Immobilize (1s): Unable to move.Duration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Just need to do damage.

Engineer

Steal DurabilityGain protection and apply vulnerability on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: 67Protection (5s): -33% Incoming DamageVulnerability (5s): 10% Incoming Damage, 10% Incoming Condition DamageDuration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Again another good stolen skill but it needs to do damage.

Throw GunkThrow gunk at target area to inflict a random condition.Damage (6x): 480 (1.8)?Number of Targets: 5Radius: 120Combo Field: EtherealRange: 900

Underrated stolen skill but it does a good amount of damage and it's a combo field.

Steal DurabilityGain superspeed and apply cripple on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack.Damage: XSuperspeed : 3Crippled (10s): -50% Movement SpeedDuration Increase: 20%Maximum Count: 2Range: 1,500

Simple but effective, gain superspeed and apply cripple, also damage.

So that's probably all I have to talk about stolen skills, as I said I like the idea that the duration of conditions and boons increase while you have more malice but the skills lack of diversity and thought.Most of them are straightly awful in comparison to steal stolen skills and some of them are balanced, they don't even do damage which is really bad along with their useless conditions, they don't really give you anything to fight back.I know it's a large post but it isn't a wall text, I just tried to compare all the stolen skills and comment my own changes.Hope you guys read it and also if you want to read my changes on the Deadeye spec I linked it above.

Zacchary.6183 · October 3, 2017

The new stolen skills would suck if Deadeye's Mark acted exactly like Steal. But it doesn't. When your mark dies Deadeye's mark gets reset. Secondly every new stolen skill gets more base condition and boon duration the more malice you have.

Elxdark.9702 · October 3, 2017

@Zacchary.6183 said:The new stolen skills would suck if Deadeye's Mark acted exactly like Steal. But it doesn't. When your mark dies Deadeye's mark gets reset. Secondly every new stolen skill gets more base condition and boon duration the more malice you have.

The problem is that they already suck, what I'm trying to do is discuss the problems and how to resolve them.Also I don't understand what you just said, I said that I liked the duration increase idea but I don't like how simple and poorly the stolen skills are.

kKagari.6804 · October 3, 2017

Marking thieves should grant steal stealth, gives you stealth, reveals them! I agree!

Steal defenses should give you aegis, and make your next 2s of attacks unblockable.

babazhook.6805 · October 4, 2017

The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)

So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.

Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.

If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.

The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.

This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.

Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

kKagari.6804 · October 4, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)
So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.
Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.
If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.
The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.
This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.
Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you

TwiceDead.1963 · October 4, 2017

@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)
So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.
Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.
If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.
The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.
This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.
Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you

Can't plague what you can't catch, right? Thieves can pop their condi's and run the fuck away... Or stealth.

This isn't justification for anything, I just find it funny.

babazhook.6805 · October 4, 2017

@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)
So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.
Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.
If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.
The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.
This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.
Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you

He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds.

kKagari.6804 · October 5, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)
So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.
Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.
If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.
The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.
This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.
Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you

He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds.

You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill.

Elxdark.9702 · October 5, 2017

I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill.I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright.

babazhook.6805 · October 5, 2017

@Elxdark.9702 said:I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill.I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright.

You can trait to get a theoretical maximum of 100 bleed stacks off a stolen skill.> @kKagari.6804 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:
@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)
So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.
Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.
If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.
The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.
This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.
Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you

He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds.

You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill.

What is your point? That is how the STEAL skill has always worked! It is not just about the stolen item. As example under the old skill the stolen skill off an Elemetalist was 10 seconds chill. Under the old steal the stolen skill off a thief was 3 seconds stealth and a blind. Are you suggesting the steal skill was not doing enough under the old system?

We traited in order to layer on more goodies to the steal. If you dod not trait to improve your steals then the skill did little good. Having an extra daze every 30 seconds or and extra stealth or blind every thirty seconds was hardly going to turn a match around. It was all of the extras you added in.

babazhook.6805 · October 5, 2017

@Elxdark.9702 said:I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill.I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright.

5 bleeds can turn into 20 in short order and can be cast AOE from 1500 range meaning a theoretical max of 100 bleed stacks. In addition to that 5 bleed X4 uses you get 1290 heal X4 base. (this is 5160 in heals more then withdraw gets you). Not only that but on a kill you can steal again wihout having to wait 20 some seconds as with the old steal.

When the skills first announced i was also not impressed until I tested them more thoroughly in the game.

I will lay out a scenario that happened in these tests. There was a person downed on a bridge and three enemy around him. They were standing in a circle of multiple circles of red as they tried to rez their friend from downed state. Two were raising and one was firing my way.

At 1500 range I did a steal and managed to steal health. I immediately back to backed the healths, mercy reset and repeated. The downed died. One of the rezzers was downed. One of the rezzers got up, walked a few steps back and was downed. The other fled. Due to the mark being killed That person that fled could not count on me not doing the same thing to him as my steal was reset. That translated to me having the potential to load 5 more confusion , 2 more iterations of whatever condition I got off the steal I would make off him , and two poison this after he had just used a cleanse and my having all my ini and dodges left. I was "sold" on the skill then and there.

This is not even counting what I could get from using the skill from one in the Chamber or the fact that I need only mark one of those gys now downed to set up another rest of my steal when he died.

The "only 5 bleeds" skill with the heal is one of the better ones in the new stolen skills. Trait it properly and you can lay on a whole lot of hurt. It has the potential damage of a venom share with 5 allies.

If you would like a link to the build to use, I am more than happy to prvide( I already gave the basis of it in antoher thread). Just take it out and field test it. I will not speak to how effective it is in pVp but in WvW and PVE it fine.

kKagari.6804 · October 5, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
@Elxdark.9702 said:I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill.I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright.

You can trait to get a theoretical maximum of 100 bleed stacks off a stolen skill.> @kKagari.6804 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:
@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)
So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.
Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.
If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.
The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.
This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.
Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you

He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds.

You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill.

What is your point? That is how the STEAL skill has always worked! It is not just about the stolen item. As example under the old skill the stolen skill off an Elemetalist was 10 seconds chill. Under the old steal the stolen skill off a thief was 3 seconds stealth and a blind. Are you suggesting the steal skill was not doing enough under the old system?

We traited in order to layer on more goodies to the steal. If you dod not trait to improve your steals then the skill did little good. Having an extra daze every 30 seconds or and extra stealth or blind every thirty seconds was hardly going to turn a match around. It was all of the extras you added in.

My point is that it sucks? You're going out of your way to make a terrible skill work for you, while the rest of your build is going to be subpar. No to sound rude, but you yourself said you don't PvP, I don't think you can comment on 'what turns a match around'.

If you blow your 2 Marks, and your mercy, on an opening gambit for those 5 conditions, all of which can easily be returned or converted by the current meta scourges, you're left with no malice to pump up your later damage.

babazhook.6805 · October 5, 2017

@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:
@Elxdark.9702 said:I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill.I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright.

You can trait to get a theoretical maximum of 100 bleed stacks off a stolen skill.> @kKagari.6804 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:
@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP)
So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv.
Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice.
If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion.
The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum.
This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA.
Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant.

Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you

He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds.

You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill.

What is your point? That is how the STEAL skill has always worked! It is not just about the stolen item. As example under the old skill the stolen skill off an Elemetalist was 10 seconds chill. Under the old steal the stolen skill off a thief was 3 seconds stealth and a blind. Are you suggesting the steal skill was not doing enough under the old system?

We traited in order to layer on more goodies to the steal. If you dod not trait to improve your steals then the skill did little good. Having an extra daze every 30 seconds or and extra stealth or blind every thirty seconds was hardly going to turn a match around. It was all of the extras you added in.

My point is that it sucks? You're going out of your way to make a terrible skill work for you, while the rest of your build is going to be subpar. No to sound rude, but you yourself said you don't PvP, I don't think you can comment on 'what turns a match around'.

If you blow your 2 Marks, and your mercy, on an opening gambit for those 5 conditions, all of which can easily be returned or converted by the current meta scourges, you're left with no malice to pump up your later damage.

The rest of the build is NOT subpar. Every thief build from Daredevil D/p to p/d condition will leverage steal so as to improve outcomes. Is someone "going out of his way" to take SOH for that stun on steal or MUG or Endurance thief? Are they going out of their way to improve steal by taking Bewildering ambush or DA for Serpents touch? When people are taking these traits they are not looking at steal and saying "geez , Ice shard is a lousy stolne skill whats the point of traiting all of this other stuff"

On the Metabattle site for thief in Conquest (PvP) mode IMProv is taken. How is that making ones build "substandard" just to improve ones steal? So somehow taking Improv for a daredevil d/p build is a good thing but taking it in a DE build is "Going out of ones way to improve a lousy skill' ?

Mercy is only one utility. Taking it does not make a build subpar. I can do more damage with mercy and provide more utility then I can do with Bandits defense.

As to your line about "blowing your two marks" I really do not know what you are talking about. You get one mark and not two. You can only reset that mark using Mercy or by killing the mark or by letting the mark expire. If you are taking Mercy to reset a mark you have made no comp[romises in your build by using it to stack conditions and or boons .

There are thief builds other then Power d/p. It is not just "5 conditions". Steal resistance can apply 20 bleed stacks and heal for 5+k just by using mercy. We have entire threads started about how a class can pply 20 bleeds in seconds as being OP and when a thief skill can do the same thing if they trait for it it suddenly giving up the ability to do damage?

On a condition P/d build which typically runs ~1800 condition damage in WvW you get about 140 per tick damage on a bleed. With easy might access Via those same Stolen skills your base condition damage jumps to around 2400 giving another 40 per tick on bleeds. Where on Earth are you sacrificing damage because you used mercy to reset malice?

In a condition build you are not all that concerned about building up malice. You want to apply conditions and 20 bleeds is a lot of conditions. It what you will get from 7 deathblossoms costing 28 ini.

If you are power with these new stolen skills , you will not do as well as a condition build from the Condition component but that is how it should be. You focus on your malice buildup and would use stolen skills for thing slike the Immob , poison ,slow and boons. Steal mobility, just as example can get you and up to 5 allies superspeed for 12 seconds with Improv traited without using mercy. Without using mercy you can get yourself and up to 5 allies 10 seconds of protection even as you apply 20 stacks of vuln on your enemy. (this IF you take peripheral..if you dont you still get these boons spplied to yourself)

That is not junk nor does it suck and the only trait needed is improv.

Eval.2371 · October 5, 2017

I have to agree a bit with babazook...

Having tried a p/d build last night on dead eye, I have to say the majority of the complaint skills are actually very useful on a condi build.

The share traits are also really nice for groups especially the necro stolen item(the heal is shared). I was able to run 1k healing power on a theif, and between shadow refuge and necro stolen & rev stolen skill my group was able to sustain through outnumber fights pretty well... it was almost like having a healing druid/mallyx rev in the group. You don't even need to use mercy to make it viable. In fact i dropped it pretty quickly for RoI.

The overlying issue is many of the stolen items are really only good for a certain types of builds. Power builds in general want to just build the malice camp rifle and not even bother with stolen items much. Condi builds really don't have that much damage on weapon sets so the stolen items supplement the losses compared to a condi drd. That said I would agree that there are a few outliers on stolen items such as ranger and thief that I found to be straight up useless... But that is what ever, not every stolen item should be amazing.

babazhook.6805 · October 5, 2017

I would make one indirect improvement to the stolen skills. That is increasing the radius of the applied boons and conditions via peripheral from the current 240 to 400.

babazhook.6805 · October 5, 2017

@Eval.2371 said:I have to agree a bit with babazook...
Having tried a p/d build last night on dead eye, I have to say the majority of the complaint skills are actually very useful on a condi build.
The share traits are also really nice for groups especially the necro stolen item(the heal is shared). I was able to run 1k healing power on a theif, and between shadow refuge and necro stolen & rev stolen skill my group was able to sustain through outnumber fights pretty well... it was almost like having a healing druid/mallyx rev in the group. You don't even need to use mercy to make it viable. In fact i dropped it pretty quickly for RoI.
The overlying issue is many of the stolen items are really only good for a certain types of builds. Power builds in general want to just build the malice camp rifle and not even bother with stolen items much. Condi builds really don't have that much damage on weapon sets so the stolen items supplement the losses compared to a condi drd. That said I would agree that there are a few outliers on stolen items such as ranger and thief that I found to be straight up useless... But that is what ever, not every stolen item should be amazing.

The problem with steal mobility is you really can not leverage the mobility into another posion given IMPROV is so much better. The superspeed however is nice. DE tends to be slower and I was trying to catch a ranger that was fleeing while I in SB. I managed to pull of the steal, apply the item on the ranger gaining superspeed even as h was immobbed and caught up. Situational but not ouright useless.

I put the thief one at the bottom of the pile. I do wish one had a daze component and thief one would be idea for that so as to make it somewhat useable.

To your point on the Heal off the necro skill. I was going to get around to trying it so am happy someone else give it a whirl.They have it listed as a .1 bonus on tooltips but those are often inaccurate. Do you know if that seems accurate?

Eval.2371 · October 5, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
To your point on the Heal off the necro skill. I was going to get around to trying it so am happy someone else give it a whirl.They have it listed as a .1 bonus on tooltips but those are often inaccurate. Do you know if that seems accurate?

The tool tip is always off on all the stolen skills... they all scale with malice. So the healing % modifier is a stacking up to 50% increase. Last night I was able to pull up to 4.5k heals off with that stolen skill.

kKagari.6804 · October 5, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
@kKagari.6804 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:
@Elxdark.9702 said:I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill.I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright.