Bull's Charge: From decent to absolutely necessary?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

We have last stand to cover stability, brave stride too if you want to take that trait...

[Shao.7236]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:We have last stand to cover stability, brave stride too if you want to take that trait...

The idea is not to grant more stability for having stability but rather keep bull's charge from being stoppable with a mere CC like it used to be, it would also prevent it from being stopped by stuff that you can't evade through as well, which makes me sense in that regard. Giving it an evade just doesn't feel right for what it does compared what it could do with stability instead.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:We have last stand to cover stability, brave stride too if you

want

to take that trait...

The idea is not to grant more stability for having stability but rather keep bull's charge from being stoppable with a mere CC like it used to be, it would also prevent it from being stopped by stuff that you can't evade through as well, which makes me sense in that regard. Giving it an evade just doesn't feel right for what it does compared what it could do with stability instead.

But you have stab sources, and BC has evade frames, so... are you just not putting stab up and getting CC'd?

[Shao.7236]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:We have last stand to cover stability, brave stride too if you

want

to take that trait...

The idea is not to grant more stability for having stability but rather keep bull's charge from being stoppable with a mere CC like it used to be, it would also prevent it from being stopped by stuff that you can't evade through as well, which makes me sense in that regard. Giving it an evade just doesn't feel right for what it does compared what it could do with stability instead.

But you have stab sources, and BC has evade frames, so... are you just not putting stab up and getting CC'd?

Balanced Stance feels too important and wasted to actually use it in synergy with BC when the target is most likely disabled for a moment. Just my 2 cents though.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:We have last stand to cover stability, brave stride too if you

want

to take that trait...

The idea is not to grant more stability for having stability but rather keep bull's charge from being stoppable with a mere CC like it used to be, it would also prevent it from being stopped by stuff that you can't evade through as well, which makes me sense in that regard. Giving it an evade just doesn't feel right for what it does compared what it could do with stability instead.

But you have stab sources, and BC has evade frames, so... are you just not putting stab up and getting CC'd?

Balanced Stance feels too important and wasted to actually use it in synergy with BC when the target is most likely disabled for a moment. Just my 2 cents though.

Balanced Stance isn't the only source of stab though.

[Shao.7236]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:We have last stand to cover stability, brave stride too if you

want

to take that trait...

The idea is not to grant more stability for having stability but rather keep bull's charge from being stoppable with a mere CC like it used to be, it would also prevent it from being stopped by stuff that you can't evade through as well, which makes me sense in that regard. Giving it an evade just doesn't feel right for what it does compared what it could do with stability instead.

But you have stab sources, and BC has evade frames, so... are you just not putting stab up and getting CC'd?

Balanced Stance feels too important and wasted to actually use it in synergy with BC when the target is most likely disabled for a moment. Just my 2 cents though.

Balanced Stance isn't the only source of stab though.

Bull's Charge as it is, can be stopped by wards. The only skills that can be used in Synergy with it to prevent counter is Balanced Stance or Lesser (Best Option, can mitigate power bursts), Dolyak Signet (Not favored due to boon removal, effects are lost.) or Eternal Champion (After a stunbreak, but who uses that?) You could consider Stomp in a follow up but it's not as useful, Brave Stride needs to hit and you lose much of the Physical Skill benefits.

Again, the idea is more counter play while making the skill more relevant to what it's meant to be which doesn't make it all useless. Considering that Warrior very often wins because his amount of skills to do damage is oppressive (Meta for a reason.) and will always make players use all their evades. Adding something in the mix as a counter to it wouldn't hurt it badly and help other professions to step up a little.

[Curennos.9307]

The evade is necessary with the current state of the game. Just murder the damage and call it a day.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

If Bull's Charge loses the evade frames, then a lot of other skills should also lose evade frames. It's only fair.

Rev sword 3, staff 5Ranger GS 3Mesmer sword 2

Those are all weapon skills too, most with short CDs. If I lose a utility slot to a 24s CD skill that can be completely negated with a blind, block, or stab then one might argue the evade frames deserve to be there.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:If Bull's Charge loses the evade frames, then a lot of other skills should also lose evade frames. It's only fair.

Rev sword 3, staff 5Ranger GS 3Mesmer sword 2

Those are all weapon skills too, most with short CDs. If I lose a utility slot to a 24s CD skill that can be completely negated with a blind, block, or stab then one might argue the evade frames deserve to be there.

why are you putting mesmer sword 2 in the same basket as rev sword 3 or bullcharge?

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:why are you putting mesmer sword 2 in the same basket as rev sword 3 or bullcharge?

Because it has evade frames and does damage at once.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:why are you putting mesmer sword 2 in the same basket as rev sword 3 or bullcharge?

Because it has evade frames and does damage at once.

they play different roles, rev 3 is dodge,gapclose,damage buffing tool.bullcharge is dodge,nuke,gapclose,evade,buffing stun.mesmer sword 2 is dodge,sometimes damage tool.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:they play different roles, rev 3 is dodge,gapclose,damage buffing tool.bullcharge is dodge,nuke,gapclose,evade,buffing stun.mesmer sword 2 is dodge,sometimes damage tool.

Not saying they don't. Just noting they do multiple things, and using that to compare to Bull's Charge since they share functionalities.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:they play different roles, rev 3 is dodge,gapclose,damage buffing tool.bullcharge is dodge,nuke,gapclose,evade,buffing stun.mesmer sword 2 is dodge,sometimes damage tool.

Not saying they don't. Just noting they do multiple things, and using that to compare to Bull's Charge since they share functionalities.

they really dont, bullcharge is used to turn from defence into offence, blurred is used as 1s dodge on low cd. if anything scepter 2 would fit better, since its offensive capabilities are actually meaningfull, both the power/condi damage and clones spawned for potential shatters.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:they really dont, bullcharge is used to turn from defence into offence, blurred is used as 1s dodge on low cd. if anything scepter 2 would fit better, since its offensive capabilities are actually meaningfull, both the power/condi damage and clones spawned for potential shatters.

Not going to derail this post into yet another discussion about Mesmer, sorry. When I used it as an example I meant "Hey, this skill does damage and evades at once too, and this is just a weapon skill. What gives?"

I'm not debating how they're used or the effectiveness. I'm just saying if the standard is having evades connected to a skill that does damage all the skills I listed have that same quality and on a much shorter CD than Bull's Charge and don't take up utility slots. I play warrior, and I don't think it'd be very cool to tack on Bull's Charge as a useless utility that's going to be blinded, immobilized, or otherwise interrupted midcast and have to wait 24s just to stand a chance at landing it later. Even now, there's so many ways to nullify Bull's Charge that a lot of the time it doesn't even get used efficiently.

I've come to the realization that squabbling over balance is pointless, and I refuse to take part. I just want to give people things to think about before or after posting things like this.

[Shao.7236]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:If Bull's Charge loses the evade frames, then a lot of other skills should also lose evade frames. It's only fair.

Rev sword 3, staff 5Ranger GS 3Mesmer sword 2

Those are all weapon skills too, most with short CDs. If I lose a utility slot to a 24s CD skill that can be completely negated with a blind, block, or stab then one might argue the evade frames deserve to be there.

Well putting it this way means that FC evade and Whirlwind should lose it too?.. I don't think so. My point is that Bull's Charge shouldn't be stopped by any form of CC, while taking away the evade would add some counter play to it, because the way it sounds and goes right now. Bull's Charge is not really a Bull's Charge, more like a ninja clunky tackle. The amount of evade chain's that could be done as Warrior was already good before they've done that patch. Not once, haven't I fought a warrior that doesn't use that skill, probably for good reason.

You're not giving me anything to think about, I've used that skill way before it had been buffed or anyone got into it's train. We all know why it's used now and I am here to say it would be better off as that rather than that. It's not really bias, just logical thinking because I for the most part use the skill at proper opportunities that don't benefit me having an evade, therefor seeing no reason to have it. I see it better used in being able to go through all forms of CC for wider opportunities.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@"Shao.7236" said:Well putting it this way means that FC evade and Whirlwind should lose it too?.. I don't think so. My point is that Bull's Charge shouldn't be stopped by any form of CC, while taking away the evade would add some counter play to it, because the way it sounds and goes right now. Bull's Charge is not really a Bull's Charge, more like a ninja clunky tackle. The amount of evade chain's that could be done as Warrior was already good before they've done that patch. Not once, haven't I fought a warrior that doesn't use that skill, probably for good reason.

You're not giving me anything to think about, I've used that skill way before it had been buffed or anyone got into it's train. We all know why it's used now and I am here to say it would be better off as that rather than that. It's not really bias, just logical thinking because I for the most part use the skill at proper opportunities that don't benefit me having an evade, therefor seeing no reason to have it. I see it better used in being able to go through all forms of CC for wider opportunities.

True, FC and Whirlwind would lose evade frames too in that case, but I guess not because there's some arbitrary value there i'm not fully aware of that gives weapon skills and class mechanics precedence over utility skills.

If you remove the evade it could and would be interrupted by CC. Not to mention that'd give more ways to apply things like blinds which; like I say, render the skill completely useless already. There's no need to introduce more counterplay to a skill that already has plenty. This isn't a "just dodge lol" skill we're talking about, this is Bull's Charge.

Just blind lolJust have stab lolJust block lol The animation hasn't changed and it isn't instacast. You can see it coming and it's not unblockable.

If you considered that, i'm pretty baffled you'd still want to gut the skill further. Again, i'll mention that this "ninja clunky tackle" is a utility skill. It's 24s of nothing if it misses or gets blocked or hits into stability, invuln, or maybe even just dodged. All methods that already exist to counter it.

And if you played Warrior back when, it can't really compare to Warrior now. Ninja-like might even be the word to describe how Warrior is played now. Defense was viable back when, people were running lots of stunbreaks to sustain through Rousing Resilience. You could take Bull's Charge and actually surprise people. The novelty is completely gone now because everyone pretty much has to run it. Strength is objectively better now, and people take Bull's Charge just to reap the benefit of Peak Performance and have some sort of setup for their damage. The other 2 traits in the first line in Strength are actually terrible, and the other physical skills are a joke. If most every warrior player is running the skill, it's bound to be used stupidly.

Alternatively to removing the evade frames off of Bull's Charge they could actually give us other options. Maybe buff the other physical skills to be worth anything, or bring back defense. I really truly believe this is a bad idea that would send Warrior back to the unplayable dumpster state it was in back before PoF came out, but hey; you think what you want to think. Just my two cents

[Shao.7236]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:Well putting it this way means that FC evade and Whirlwind should lose it too?.. I don't think so. My point is that Bull's Charge shouldn't be stopped by any form of CC, while taking away the evade would add some counter play to it, because the way it sounds and goes right now. Bull's Charge is not really a Bull's Charge, more like a ninja clunky tackle. The amount of evade chain's that could be done as Warrior was already good before they've done that patch. Not once, haven't I fought a warrior that doesn't use that skill, probably for good reason.

You're not giving me anything to think about, I've used that skill way before it had been buffed or anyone got into it's train. We all know why it's used now and I am here to say it would be better off as that rather than that. It's not really bias, just logical thinking because I for the most part use the skill at proper opportunities that don't benefit me having an evade, therefor seeing no reason to have it. I see it better used in being able to go through all forms of CC for wider opportunities.

True, FC and Whirlwind would lose evade frames too in that case, but I guess not because there's some arbitrary value there i'm not fully aware of that gives weapon skills and class mechanics precedence over utility skills.

If you remove the evade it could and would be interrupted by CC. Not to mention that'd give more ways to apply things like blinds which; like I say, render the skill completely useless already. There's no need to introduce more counterplay to a skill that already has plenty. This isn't a "just dodge lol" skill we're talking about, this is Bull's Charge.

Just blind lolJust have stab lolJust block lol The animation hasn't changed and it isn't instacast. You can see it coming and it's not unblockable.

If you considered that, i'm pretty baffled you'd still want to gut the skill further. Again, i'll mention that this "ninja clunky tackle" is a utility skill. It's 24s of nothing if it misses or gets blocked or hits into stability, invuln,

or maybe even just dodged.

All methods that already exist to counter it.

And if you played Warrior back when, it can't really compare to Warrior now. Ninja-like might even be the word to describe how Warrior is played now. Defense was viable back when, people were running lots of stunbreaks to sustain through Rousing Resilience. You could take Bull's Charge and actually surprise people. The novelty is completely gone now because everyone pretty much

has

to run it. Strength is objectively better now, and people take Bull's Charge just to reap the benefit of Peak Performance and have some sort of setup for their damage. The other 2 traits in the first line in Strength are actually terrible, and the other physical skills are a joke. If most every warrior player is running the skill, it's bound to be used stupidly.

Alternatively to removing the evade frames off of Bull's Charge they could actually give us other options. Maybe buff the other physical skills to be worth anything, or bring back defense. I really truly believe this is a bad idea that would send Warrior back to the unplayable dumpster state it was in back before PoF came out, but hey; you think what you want to think. Just my two cents

Sigh, why is everyone missing the fact that I keep saying it deserves stability more than it does evade? As of it's current state it can STILL be stopped by many wards or forms of CC like Shock Aura, I'm not in vain saying that it should be rolled back to what it was, the evade is more or less useful when the skill is used properly.. Even sometimes used a sustain for people to disengage where as there's a lot of other skills before that one that would deserve it first. Calling that a nerf from what it was buffed from doesn't really gut that much, it removes some aspects while adding new others, which is the idea here, more counter play is better than not as far we know, only an evade (Everyone has) or ward/shock aura/invul (Not everyone has) can deal with this skill, which is very little compared to if it was stability. Newer options while having newer counters for everyone.

Let's take situations like blinding as a Power Shiro, if I was on it and wanted to blind the Bull's Charge coming, good I avoided myself a CC right? Well, maybe? What if you are to CC again, it would have been better off if I had let myself be stunbreak for you to be blinded after, gaining all sorts of benefit if set so from my stunbreak as well as blinding whichever attack is next.

Believe me I thought this through and there's a lot to be done, with one or the other, I'd like to believe giving stability leans to a much more offensive amount of options rather than a evade, because an evade can still be stopped by anything while, stability cannot be stopped unless there's a following amount of effects or say a blind! To me it sounds more healthy to the game as well as making the use of skill a bit more valuable and less reckless.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@"Shao.7236" said:Sigh, why is everyone missing the fact that I keep saying it deserves stability more than it does evade? As of it's current state it can STILL be stopped by many wards or forms of CC like Shock Aura, I'm not in vain saying that it should be rolled back to what it was, the evade is more or less useful when the skill is used properly.. Even sometimes used a sustain for people to disengage where as there's a lot of other skills before that one that would deserve it first. Calling that a nerf from what it was buffed from doesn't really gut that much, it removes some aspects while adding new others, which is the idea here, more counter play is better than not as far we know, only an evade (Everyone has) or ward/shock aura/invul (Not everyone has) can deal with this skill, which is very little compared to if it was stability. Newer options while having newer counters for everyone.

Let's take situations like blinding as a Power Shiro, if I was on it and wanted to blind the Bull's Charge coming, good I avoided myself a CC right? Well, maybe? What if you are to CC again, it would have been better off if I had let myself be stunbreak for you to be blinded after, gaining all sorts of benefit if set so from my stunbreak as well as blinding whichever attack is next.

Believe me I thought this through and there's a lot to be done, with one or the other, I'd like to believe giving stability leans to a much more offensive amount of options rather than a evade, because an evade can still be stopped by anything while, stability cannot be stopped unless there's a following amount of effects or say a blind! To me it sounds more healthy to the game as well as making the use of skill a bit more valuable and less reckless.

I'll be honest. I missed that one line about Stability in your OP.

There's still more room to work with when it comes to evades than there is with Stability regardless. You can be blinded by a lot of skills that otherwise wouldn't blind you if you were evading rather than just rushing at someone with Stability. Stability also corrupts into fear, and AOE boon corruption is pretty prevalent. Not to mention Sigil of Annulment. Probably the most used sigil in PvP actually strips away Stability before the actual CC procs for a lot of skills, which basically means the Stability may as well not be there; you're still going to get CC'd. There's also Boon theft, which would actually turn the skill against you; as is often the case with thieves or Mesmers and FC. And then there's actually taking direct damage while you're in the animation.

Shock Aura is exceedingly rare with Rune of Surging gone. I mean, you are right; Stability would be better there, but the only practical uses of Shocking Aura that I see playing come from Tempests and that Engineer shield skill.

Invulns and wards(blocks?) would waste Bull's Charge regardless if it gave Stability or evaded.

That's 5 negatives (or nerfs) compared to one positive (or buff.) To a skill that already has what you've helped prove to be at least 6 ways to already counter. Block, Blind, Stab, Shocking Aura, Invuln, or evades.

I'm all for having multiple options to counter a skill, but in this game having 9 different ways to counter 1 single skill is a technical way of saying don't even bother with it. Like I pointed out earlier, there are skills and class mechanics that function similarly to Bull's Charge, and those aren't even utility skills. Why should they be harder to react to than a utility that's integral to playing Strength Warrior?

What would removing the evades in place of stability even accomplish? If the goal is to have the skill do less, you'd still be doing as much as you were previously only the evade is now stability.

I think that you're thinking on it too much. In a perfect world every skill and mechanic would have multiple ways for each class to counter and/or react to, but...

[Shao.7236]

@"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

Being able to counter Bull's Charge with Annulment is an idea I see the most used but it's a setup that isn't just randomly achieved, it's wanted. Whether having the Sigil or not Staff 5 Revenant which would result in a clunky situation where both players are likely to evade each other or the Revenant still get the last word anyway if Bulls Charge tracked in front.

Same with FC or anything that has stability in that regard but that's the fun about, it promotes reactive gameplay on both sides, as a Thief to Headshot or even Steal, those are just things to give incentive, not to come up with Mirage sword leap though because this actually cost endurance, most skills that have an evade either CC with no damage or Damage with no CC.

Would you be upset at a Necromancer reacting in time with Quickness Axe 3 to your gap closer? Considering how easy it is to CC lock any of them lately? Fear is just 1 sec, it's more like a Daze if you'd ask me. Most corrupts are not as brain dead if you know em, let's be fair. Scourge is also eh, it does have some corrupts but those turns conditions into specifically into cripple and torment, aside the burning trait. This just by itself shows how Necromancer/Reaper could be a little more potent.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ward those are wards, stuff that you can't evade through though it doesn't include Slick Shoes or Spectral Ring, even Mud Slide.

I mean if it's used right, what's the point to have an evade when you could actually do more with 1 or even 2 stacks of Stability given the offensive options?

It just feels right for it to be that way, I have little concern with Blinds as a Warrior, tbh rarely have I seen anyone saved by Blinds against one because of the damage output anyway, so is it really that much of a rampant issue when you can still burst afterwards? That's usually what it is for, people can't evade forever if punished properly, in not a lot of ways to tank big hits either.

Finally, from what I remember.. Strength Dagger was always fine even before the Bull's Charge change? At least that's how it looked, I remember myself and some people even using the utility without the even to good results because the Knockdown is very rewarding.

If we are to speak of my big thonk, well you'd have to hear that I honestly think FC should reflect 75% if not 100% of the damage taken during the last hit, bringing back damage potential without being braindead, again making things more reactive and meaningful. Just saying.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

Last post, this is needlessly dragging on.

@"Shao.7236" said:Being able to counter Bull's Charge with Annulment is an idea I see the most used but it's a setup that isn't just randomly achieved, it's wanted. Whether having the Sigil or not Staff 5 Revenant which would result in a clunky situation where both players are likely to evade each other or the Revenant still get the last word anyway if Bulls Charge tracked in front.

Same with FC or anything that has stability in that regard but that's the fun about, it promotes reactive gameplay on both sides, as a Thief to Headshot or even Steal, those are just things to give incentive, not to come up with Mirage sword leap though because this actually cost endurance, most skills that have an evade either CC with no damage or Damage with no CC.

Finally, from what I remember.. Strength Dagger was always fine even before the Bull's Charge change? At least that's how it looked, I remember myself and some people even using the utility without the even to good results because the Knockdown is very rewarding.

Is this a confession that you're really asking for a straight up nerf? Do you realize that now?

Like I say, the more options you give people to counter one specific skill; the more likely people are to just not use it. If you have like 10 different ways to counter one skill then people will just not use it, and considering how important it is to Strength Warrior and that Strength Warrior is the one viable option left to play Warrior; that means people won't be able to play Warrior efficiently at all.

On the subject of Rev staff 5 actually.... Weapon skill with damage, evades, mobility, and CC. Guess that's fine though, huh? It's only Bull's Charge that's the problem, even though it's got a longer CD and it has to be taken as a utility which means you lose Stunbreaks, Condi cleanse, and other potentially useful utilities for it. For the investment alone, I don't think it should be nerfed. It's also very hypocritical, and always will be unless every skill on every class was held to the same standard, with multiple ways to act and react to every single skill, but even competently balanced games find achieving this difficult.

And really; going back, Bull's Charge was buffed and given the evade before PoF even came out. In the few months leading up to PoF Warrior was an actual garbage-tier profession. It was so weak, I actually quit at one point and waited for buffs or the next xpac to come. Had to swap to thief to do dailies or when someone wanted to play. I hope you can see why I wouldn't want to go back to that.

Would you be upset at a Necromancer reacting in time with Quickness Axe 3 to your gap closer? Considering how easy it is to CC lock any of them lately? Fear is just 1 sec, it's more like a Daze if you'd ask me. Most corrupts are not as brain dead if you know em, let's be fair. Scourge is also eh, it does have some corrupts but those turns conditions into specifically into cripple and torment, aside the burning trait. This just by itself shows how Necromancer/Reaper could be a little more potent.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ward those are wards, stuff that you can't evade through though it doesn't include Slick Shoes or Spectral Ring, even Mud Slide.

I actually didn't have a name for those type of skills for the longest time, so I appreciate the insight. I tried to briefly go over them in my last post in saying that there's already skills that blind(or just apply conditions in general) that can proc their condition through evades. With Stability they'd still apply the condition with what would be added ways to further punish using the skill.

Necro already has plenty of ways to mitigate Bull's Charge that all make a lot of sense actually. Again Bull's Charge is a utility skill, and through utilities Scourge can give themselves stability. There's also spectral ring like you say, another utility. For Reaper, they get Stability through their shroud which is most definitely fair. "CTB" would also give stability.

Using a utility skill to counter another utility skill feels more fair to me, and that level of counterplay already exists. What would be unfair to me, and what would make me upset is employing your undisguised nerfs so that low-investment skills can more easily mitigate one of Warrior's most important skills.

I mean if it's used right, what's the point to have an evade when you could actually do more with 1 or even 2 stacks of Stability given the offensive options?

Everything I mentioned in my last post.

It just feels right for it to be that way, I have little concern with Blinds as a Warrior, tbh rarely have I seen anyone saved by Blinds against one because of the damage output anyway, so is it really that much of a rampant issue when you can still burst afterwards? That's usually what it is for, people can't evade forever if punished properly, in not a lot of ways to tank big hits either.

Blinds are often considered the bane of Warrior's existence. Your personal experience may vary, but being blinded usually forces me to dodge or blow FC just to clear it. Consistent blinds like those from AOEs can even shut down rampage and Bull's Charge because you can't use the skills to setup for damage while it's there, and if they do get used; they're wasted, and those are Strength Warrior's two most important skills wasted with one single condition. Not enough counterplay though, pls nerf.

If we are to speak of my big thonk, well you'd have to hear that I honestly think FC should reflect 75% if not 100% of the damage taken during the last hit, bringing back damage potential without being braindead, again making things more reactive and meaningful. Just saying.

To that, I just say good luck. I already took my nerfs like a good little Warrior main, and i've become pretty content with FC being my favorite defensive blind clear. It hits like water and people still complain about it to this day. It's an uphill battle there.

[Shao.7236]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Last post, this is needlessly dragging on.Can't really show you in any other way that whether you land that CC or not the following is always the same or even worst and the skill IMO is a missed opportunity to create something that could be better used while still having a healthy amount of counter other than evading it. 99% of the time you are likely to successfully do a follow up with Whirlwind or Burst as the blind stops the CC only not damage, but now leaves opportunity for said damage to miss since you're forcing the option on people.

To speak of which, Revenant will be the one likely to do so with it's stunbreak since the damage is forced into him, also please, Staff 5 Damage is meaningless as it's purely CC or kitting tool, Revenant in contrast to Warrior hits like a noodle for pretty much anything and has to rely on so many multi hits / setup to be any useful, hence why Power Shiro is used at +1 but useless in everything else. BC hits for at least 5k and count 3 second CC, it's not comparable, utility for utility could sound fair but then you have to remember that Warrior has probably the lowest cooldowns on any skills period, Revenant might not share a lot of cooldowns but it's energy pool fairly limits them to be balanced out.

Warrior is like, far from being bottom even before as I recall playing it, meta was aids but still was above average.

FC was overpowered and doesn't deserve to hit constantly for more than 2k unless you were to add value to the player ability reacting. Back then FC was pretty much a free kill since it had quite overpowered damage to follow with, now it's fair. If it needed a buff, make player skill the factor, not senseless stuff that can be used as easily with big reward.

Countering someone's big burst with your own ability sounds like a better way to work FC.

[Vancho.8750]

The only way that Bull rush can be properly implemented as what is supposed to do without evade is to make a special buff Unstoppable where for there duration of the rush the warrior can't be stopped slowed, crippled, immobile or chilled and what ever cc you can name that removes control and has reduced damage taken from all sources, this makes it so it can be weakened or blinded. Everyone suggesting stability when pressing the button knows it will do fuck all, the whole point is that a Rushing bull can't be fucking stopped. From a developer point of view, making it evade is way easier to implement than making the overcomplicated special buff that would probably bug out constantly.And for those complaining for that one gap closer on warrior that works that it is horizontal ability that has long telegraph compared to other professions with instant teleport sometimes 2 or 3. They could nerf the damage in SPVP so it doesn't murder people when i crits.

[RedShark.9548]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Shao.7236 said:To me it sounds more healthy to the game as well as making the use of skill a bit more valuable and less reckless.

Just giving it stab would make it far more reckless than dodge, do you know how many times i got blasted with serious dmg while basically being stuck in rush animation, because i had weaponswap still on cd?

Honestly, you rarely ever BC into a ward skill... You dodge way more dmg than stab would deny cc on you.

And i agree with what vancho said.

I also always wonder where all those evadeframes on warriorskills are?Gs3 and bc and fc, all with fairly long cds. Compared to tgief and mesmer evades its nothing really, especially with warrior having no access to stealth or teleports.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Shao.7236 said:To me it sounds more healthy to the game as well as making the use of skill a bit more valuable and less reckless.

Just giving it stab would make it far more reckless than dodge, do you know how many times i got blasted with serious dmg while basically being stuck in rush animation, because i had weaponswap still on cd?

Honestly, you rarely ever BC into a ward skill... You dodge way more dmg than stab would deny cc on you.

And i agree with what vancho said.

I also always wonder where all those evadeframes on warriorskills are?Gs3 and bc and fc, all with fairly long cds. Compared to tgief and mesmer evades its nothing really, especially with warrior having no access to stealth or teleports.

Maybe they should put evade on Rush or 100 Blades then huh? Might as well put evades on Whirling Axe, Savage Leap, Eviscerate, and Flurry while we're at it. Only half serious here, but putting evades on some of those is not a bad idea, just not all of them.

[Lighter.5631]

Why are you guys still on this topic, without magebane tether, warrior is hot garbage lol.