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Rework the Boon System


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Hey there,

Boons in GW2 became a lot more accessible and present throughout the years. This got us into the situation that:

  1. Best Raid scenario used permanent Boon uptime which is unacceptable to think of - relying on the external support 24/7 in order to achieve best results is bad for class design.

  2. The PvP scene is filled up with renewing, spammable Boons that are frustrating to play against and can be very confusing for newbies.

  3. Classes having access to the maximum cap of Might on their own is a bad design. Balancing a class around external boons is unhealthy.

  4. Single skills are capable of providing 3 or more boons with single use - again, external support that has to be balanced around.

And Condis. This is a whole another subject that has to be tackled. I am sure players are frustrated getting Condi-bombed. The Condi system also needs a revamp as currently it favors unhealthy, spammable gameplay.

Reworking the Boon System would mean classes no longer having to rely sometimes solely on said buffs. Spammable mechanics are an unhealthy way of dealing with content, especially in PvP. Raid groups are 100% dependant on the permanent Boon uptime.

I want to highlight the issue. What do you think about reworking the system? Do you have any suggestions that you believe could help in the overall game experience?

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I kind of agree.But I disagree with 4th point.Having single skills to grant couple of boons is okay.The issue is around passives that multiply those couple into even more.Combo fields had sense back in time and required cooperation or planning.Now combo fields are no-brainer because all you have to do is to press buttons aka skills in sequence and voila, it's your sequence to win.

In regard of maximum Might cap - it's overall a huge problem.Reaper for example is okayish here, because he can go to 25 stacks and hit like a truck (no one shot thing tho), but his sustain and survivability is low - which is natural, you go offense, then your defense is bad.

Things change when we take to the table Holo, Warrior, Ele or Revenant.Not only those classes have a huge amount of Might upkeep, but also can stack them to max almost instantly.

I'm playing a corrupt necro in wvw and it's funny how I can corrupt, corrupt and corrupt boons on guy and this cleanse + boon upkeep is just hilarious.Dropped 20 boons from the guy and he still goes and boons himself like a bot with 0 cd on boon giving skills.

And as Condis are also a problem in a matter of being spammed endlessly, then the biggest problem in PvP with them is blind.The amount of blind that you receive from certain classes makes it almost impossible to defend yourself.And here I think that limiting blind would in fact make it much more easier to fight against condition builds.

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@phokus.8934 said:Makes post about wanting boons to be reworked but offers no suggestions. About par for these forums.

Boon output is fine with the exception of maybe FB but it's a support spec.

If the Boon output is fine, in your opinion, then any suggestions of rework would be useless. I want people to discuss the issues about Boon System and whether it is in need of rework or not.

If you are fine with the current Boon output, that's cool. There is no reason for me to provide you with alternative system.

We just have different opinions. I am no designer - I am curious what others have to say.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:Reworking the boon system is probably impossible. Reducing direct access to boon is probably a better option, especially since concentration exist.I'm always baffled to see that ANet's dev are more warry of auras than boons.

It might be close to impossible but it would be the most objective way of dealing with it. This way everyone gets something new.

The point is - I don't see Devs putting a lot effort into targeting Boon problems. I too think that Access to boons should be limited, but I guess Devs think different.

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@Tao.5096 said:I kind of agree.But I disagree with 4th point.Having single skills to grant couple of boons is okay.The issue is around passives that multiply those couple into even more.Combo fields had sense back in time and required cooperation or planning.Now combo fields are no-brainer because all you have to do is to press buttons aka skills in sequence and voila, it's your sequence to win.Combo fields got mostly abandoned, because they were unworkable in their current form. For those to come back, you'd need to make them more dependable - meaning, you should alway have full control on what fields to combo with. Now you don't - dps rotations place fields around as a sideeffect, and with several fields overlapping making sure which one your finisher will combo with is not dependable at all.Basically, Anet would need to rework the whole combo system, with the consequences reaching way further and affecting large parts of the whole combat design. And that's unlikely to happen.

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First as a ele I can't get 25 might instantly he need to hit something 25 times in fight with extreme little upkeep time. The developers had the the same argument for nerfing Chrono and Druid which resulted in an outcry. PvE Raids & Fractals are depended on perma boons(okay not all) without them they just don't work especially the cm modes or even worse raids with enrage timer.

But I agree that the boon systems is odd in Gw2 in old MMO which followed WoW you had boons/buffs basically in duration from 10 to 30 minutes which were basically very powerful like in Gw2 and could given nearly everyone. Action MMOs had then short duration boons with little power and mostly only for himself except some domain effects which the healer throw out. Gw2 don't fit with neither of them

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:Hey there,

Boons in GW2 became a lot more accessible and present throughout the years. This got us into the situation that:

  1. Best Raid scenario used permanent Boon uptime which is unacceptable to think of - relying on the external support 24/7 in order to achieve best results is bad for class design.

External support as in other ppl or external support as in buffs that increase gour stats to achieve best results?

I think both are fine, the main fault of the boon system imo is that is have been powercreeped to no end and perma upkeeping is considered the goto and expected strat.

And Condis. This is a whole another subject that has to be tackled. I am sure players are frustrated getting Condi-bombed. The Condi system also needs a revamp as currently it favors unhealthy, spammable gameplay.

Condies were better in gw1, just debuffs with non stackable dot (intensity wise) and the dots themselves were their own skill and effects. Controled dmg that didnt scale to extremes.

Reworking the Boon System would mean classes no longer having to rely sometimes solely on said buffs. Spammable mechanics are an unhealthy way of dealing with content, especially in PvP. Raid groups are 100% dependant on the permanent Boon uptime.

I want to highlight the issue. What do you think about reworking the system? Do you have any suggestions that you believe could help in the overall game experience?

Remove the perma upkeep aspect of boons by making them not stack in duration and increase their potency to work as limited time super buffs, it would promote group coordination and communication and lead to a healthier game in wvw and pvp (i believe only gw2 rn has this aproach of perma upkeep buffs, meanwhile all the other big mmos go for more potent shorter buffs). Remove the boon duration stat, instead introduce it as an effect for some classes or specs and treat it as a strong utility, meaning that class'/spec's dmg will be balanced around said utility along with everything else.

Juggle around the boon acess to skills and tie then to utilities and abilities with longer cooldowns so groups can more easily coordinate them. Cut down the acess to boons each class has and give more of an identity to each class (some classes bring fury, some might some this, some that). Change might to instead of increasing condition dmg it now increases dot dmg (removing the condition out of the equastion.

For condies i think gw1 did the better, again have them overall be just debuffs that lower stats or weaken u in some maner with some of them having a small dot, create proper dot skills in the game and diferentiate them from condies. Remove the intensity scaling from dmging debuffs but keep the dur scaling.

All in all i dont see it happening because a boon rework would entail an entire combat rework, which at this point (unless they plan to re invest heavily into the game) would be too much work for low payoff.

Its better imo just to give feedback and hope they realise the shortcommings of the system when they go and make their next title.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:Reworking the boon system is probably impossible. Reducing direct access to boon is probably a better option, especially since concentration exist.I'm always baffled to see that ANet's dev are more warry of auras than boons.

Concentration as a stat was a mistake imo. But yeah reworking boons at this point is to rework the combat and thats quite the undertaking. It would be easier for them to take the feeeback and apply it to whatever they decide to make next.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tao.5096 said:I kind of agree.But I disagree with 4th point.Having single skills to grant couple of boons is okay.The issue is around passives that multiply those couple into even more.Combo fields had sense back in time and required cooperation or planning.Now combo fields are no-brainer because all you have to do is to press buttons aka skills in sequence and voila, it's your sequence to win.Combo fields got mostly abandoned, because they were unworkable in their current form. For those to come back, you'd need to make them more dependable - meaning, you should alway have full control on what fields to combo with. Now you don't - dps rotations place fields around as a sideeffect, and with several fields overlapping making sure which one your finisher will combo with is not dependable at all.Basically, Anet would need to rework the whole combo system, with the consequences reaching way further and affecting large parts of the whole combat design. And that's unlikely to happen.

Basically asking for a boon and condi rework is asking for a full cobat rework. Combo fields would need to be re evaluated imo and reduced across the board. theres just to many fields flying left and right now and its messing with boons too much.

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@"DonArkanio.6419" said:Hey there,

Boons in GW2 became a lot more accessible and present throughout the years. This got us into the situation that:

  1. Best Raid scenario used permanent Boon uptime which is unacceptable to think of - relying on the external support 24/7 in order to achieve best results is bad for class design.

On the contrary. If every class can provide everything for themselves, you get a party with 10x the same class. It will be worse than the original berserker meta.The fact that every class supplies a good, makes it so we get parties with lots of classes and specializations.

  1. The PvP scene is filled up with renewing, spammable Boons that are frustrating to play against and can be very confusing for newbies.

Stability is a bit.. chaotic, in the pvp scene, but hey.. there are also spammable conditions and blocks.. so.. it all evens out

  1. Classes having access to the maximum cap of Might on their own is a bad design. Balancing a class around external boons is unhealthy.

Classes shouldn't be able to max out on their own. Classes shouldn't be relying on others.I don't think you can be any more contradictory.. will you make up your mind so we can continue this conversation?

  1. Single skills are capable of providing 3 or more boons with single use - again, external support that has to be balanced around.

And Condis. This is a whole another subject that has to be tackled. I am sure players are frustrated getting Condi-bombed. The Condi system also needs a revamp as currently it favors unhealthy, spammable gameplay.

Reworking the Boon System would mean classes no longer having to rely sometimes solely on said buffs. Spammable mechanics are an unhealthy way of dealing with content, especially in PvP. Raid groups are 100% dependant on the permanent Boon uptime.

I want to highlight the issue. What do you think about reworking the system? Do you have any suggestions that you believe could help in the overall game experience?

Maybe you should first figure out exactly what you want and then come back for a healthy conversation?Also, making rants without suggestions are just.. rants.. anet can't use them.

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I want people to discuss the issues about Boon System and whether it is in need of rework or not. I'm not a game designer - I want to see what people have to say on this subject.

External support meaning boons, not class buffs.No class should be able to Max-stack on its own - this is unhealthy. No class should be mostly reliant on external support that isn't part of the class itself.

I am bothered by Boons functionality as atm it works as if it was a built-in class feature which it isn't. Boons sit on top of every class buff and work with it making some builds very unfun to play against. It's something that is treated as granted along the skills, so without much effort boons are thrown all over the place.

Raid groups rely on the permanent boon uptime and I don't think that should exist. This makes the fight dependant on the the external mechanic rather than profession themselves.

Also, I perfectly figured out what I want to say, and if you don't understand the process of my thoughts, you can simply ask rather than calling this a rant. Thanks for the comment that doesn't bring much to the discussion other than sticking to the words I use to describe the issue.

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@LadyGal.8365 said:Too tired to look up a link on this but i could have sworn ANET mentioned a rework of boons in the future, I could be wrong or misheard/misread~

They did talk about it, I believe it was in december. At that time they also announced new armor stat sets to support these change. It was advertised as an early 2019 change... They also shared their will to make combo finishers/combo fields more relevant...

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:

  1. Best Raid scenario used permanent Boon uptime which is unacceptable to think of - relying on the external support 24/7 in order to achieve best results is bad for class design.

I prefer the system of boons as they are now to be honest. This way, to make the perfect composition you use a variety of different builds, otherwise all that would differentiate one build from another would be how much damage they do. Spreading out some of the boons to more builds, to increase variety further, is a better option than reducing boon effectiveness.

Relying on multiple builds to provide different effects for the group isn't bad design, it's good design.

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The only approach to this I see that could work is providing boons extremely selfishly. Classes should have access to crucial boons themselves, not rely on others for it. However, that would completely ignore any support playstyle beyond "press heal", which is not desirable. I also wouldn't call it bad class design to rely on others. It's not a single player game and more difficult content should reflect that in smart group compositions. Just because it's long past having to theorize and craft group compositions (aka we have a meta established because that is the ultimate goal) doesn't make it bad.

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@phokus.8934 said:Makes post about wanting boons to be reworked but offers no suggestions. About par for these forums.

Boon output is fine with the exception of maybe FB but it's a support spec.

If the Boon output is fine, in your opinion, then any suggestions of rework would be useless. I want people to discuss the issues about Boon System and whether it is in need of rework or not.

If you are fine with the current Boon output, that's cool. There is no reason for me to provide you with alternative system.

We just have different opinions. I am no designer - I am curious what others have to say.

It's as if you didn't even read what you wrote in your OP. But like I said, about par for these forums.

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It is not only the boons it is everything the stat system, the rune and sigil systems, the % damage increases, the boons and conditions on top of it. They overcharged the game with everything the most troublesome boons i think are alacrity and quickness those 2 are 10k+ increase in dps for raids, they really break timings of allot of classes i usually play warrior and it is over reliant on those 2 boons to pull any kind of dps and it doesn't really have access to them on its own so playing with and without them is really different. Even in WoW the buffs were only dps increase the skill rotations didn't change inside a raid and outside.

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I want people to discuss the issues about Boon System and whether it is in need of rework or not. I'm not a game designer - I want to see what people have to say on this subject.

External support meaning boons, not class buffs.External support is a support provided by other players, not by yourself. Nothing more, and nothing less. Boons not being an unique class mechanic doesn't make them something external to classes. Just as dodging (or straight out
direct power damage
) is not an external effect even if all classes have access to it.

No class should be able to Max-stack on its own - this is unhealthy. No class should be mostly reliant on external support that isn't part of the class itself.Those two are contradictory. Either you can max out on your own, or you depend on others to max out.

I am bothered by Boons functionality as atm it works as if it was a built-in class feature which it isn't. Boons sit on top of every class buff and work with it making some builds very unfun to play against.Is it a problem with boons, however, a problem with those specific builds, or a problem with your skill?

Raid groups rely on the permanent boon uptime and I don't think that should exist. This makes the fight dependant on the the external mechanic rather than profession themselves.Only if you treat boons as an external mechanic (which they are not). And something that is not dependant on skill (a notion anyone seeing a bad support chrono in action can easily disabuse you of).

TL/DR: as i understand, what you really want, is to see boons gone or nerfed into irrelevancy, and game reduced to pure dps/tank/heal equation. Specifically, in raids, the content that is based around group cooperation, you want any sort of group synergy to disappear. Seeing as it would result in dumbing of the content, probably casualizing it, i can see the good points in your proposal. Somehow, though, i doubt raider veterans would agree.

Btw: Something in your posts makes me think you are coming at it from a pure pvp point of view, and are completely ignoring the impact on pve. If that's the case, rethink it again. We've had way too many cases already of balance changes meant for one content resulting in negative consequences in other game modes. We don't need more of that stuff happening again.

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Boons are a bit much in GW2. They were better as a way to augment what characters could do at launch. However, with access to boons increasing with Elite Specs, and with the greater availability of boon duration, they are just too available.

I'd like to see boon duration nerfed. I'd like to see boon availability cut back. To my mind, this would transition boons from a strategic necessity in organized play to a tactical option in certain circumstances. This would make gameplay more appealing to me.

That said, there would be way too much backlash over gear and from people who like the boon spam metas in oranized PvE, WvW zerg play and possibly those who use professions with high boon availability in PvP. WvW zerg play would also suffer, due to the massive amounts of AoE and CC that professions can put in. It's a nice conceit, but unlikely.

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Max duration is a good thing to look at for boons but i think more then the boon system it self needs to be looked at. Its the counter boon system that needs a rework.

Boon strip should remove the boon comply where a boon corruption should only eat a stack of stacking boons (full boon if it dose not stack). As well as giving some means of boon counter to all classes.

I think that would go a long way to fixing boons in a pvp / wvw setting as for pve its pointless to even try.

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