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low effort suggestion to help increase player activity in raids


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successfully complete a challenge mote, get a new title for that boss. i like to play these CMs, but most don't because there is no reward.

title reward is a good compromise if we cannot have extra loot.

additionally, hoping you guys can make another difficult raid boss similar to dhuum cm difficulty. w7 cms were too easy.

maybe even add cms to other bosses?

at the end of the day, we want harder content, please.

i generally only play raids, and the community seems to be getting smaller and smaller. i'm starting to look elsewhere for raids. maybe ff14?

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If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.Making them harder will only be great for more experienced and hardcore community (which is leaving the game, woop woop).

title reward is a good compromise if we cannot have extra loot.

Soo, we would do it once for the title instead of loot ? This achieves litteraly nothing.

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@Glider.5792 said:If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.Making them harder will only be great for more experienced and hardcore community (which is leaving the game, woop woop).

title reward is a good compromise if we cannot have extra loot.

Soo, we would do it once for the title instead of loot ? This achieves litteraly nothing.

They are leaving because last 2 wings were too easy... woop woop

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You don't have to reinvent the wheel...It's commonly known how to increase raiding scene in your game. You just have to:

  • release new wings (Pretty fast, but not too fast. And regularly. To make raiders feels safe and let them plan when they'll progress)

  • have a good long-term reward system (which won't get bored after few wings)

Gw2 failed in both aspects. In the current situation it is probably impossible for raiding scene to reborn tbh. Because too many people which loves to raid already quit. And it will be very difficult to make them come back, because many of them feel cheated. They came here to raid. They took their time to learn the game. And they received 2/3/4 bosses per year.

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The easiest way to increase player activity in Raids is to wait until summer is over. Summer means less activity in games.Second way is to make sure the next Raid Wings have actually good rewards to get and not some worthless trinket.If they make Gen3 Legendary Weapons available as next Raid rewards, it would be great and you'll see a lot more activity. Obviously they'd need to be staggered and released over a long period of time (like all legendary weapons) but you'd be able to make a few precursors.

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Raids just needs better rewards such as something else worth grinding for and more monetary rewards like fractals have.

It also needs more frequent content releases than the ~9 month cadence along with it being, or at least having the option to be, more difficult. Doing the CM’s should also be more rewarding rather than a one-time thing for AP and titles.

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As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

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@"Raknar.4735" said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Pretty much this. its gotten to the point im considering paying for raid runs just to finish my armor off, as the raid group i had quit due to them being "to easy" however..they arent easy enough to pull in the regular players.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing,

Then explain why the Heart of Thorns wings are so much more popular. It can't be difficulty because Wings 6 and 7 are rather easy, even compared to 1,2,3.Adding more rewards to existing raids won't do them any good. But it's good to consider better rewards for the future.

Speaking from my experience: Players are more familiar with the HoT wings because they came first. There was an initial curiosity about raids that declined after every raid release. I guess people are scared/can't be bothered to learn new mechanics each time a new wing comes out. They just do the raids they are familiar with. (My opinion)

I did not use the word easy on purpose, because raid-content itself isn't really hard. But the raids also aren't fun for the majority.(For better undestanding what i mean: Raid-content: bosses and the events / raids: everything from finding a squad to completing the raid)

Rewards can be a driving force to do content, but i'd rather do content because it is fun. (Of course rewards are part of "fun", but it shouldn't replace "fun")That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

[That said, this is only my personal opinion, i could be wrong about everything here. WvW at its initial release had this problem in reverse: the gameplay was fun, but the rewards weren't there. Nowadays it still has lacking rewards and the gameplay got worse due to neglect and powercreep]

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing,

Then explain why the Heart of Thorns wings are so much more popular.Apart from w4 that is popular due to being the easiest, the popularity of others is due to them being the first wings (they got caught in the initial hype at first, and now people are just used to them already), and the legendary armor. New wings are unpopular because ring just isn't as good as armor, but also because when they released, raid popularity has already started to wane. There were only few new raiders, and many of the old ones weren't interested anymore. So yeah, rewards do matter, even if they are not the only factor. CMs... not so much.

Remember, though, that the popularity of w5 was the lowest even when it still offered LIs instead of LDs. Higher difficulty made players less interested in it, not more.

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@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options?

Rewards are the primary means to keep players doing content. A lot of people don’t like map completion but it’s required to get Legendaries (if not buying them). A lot of players don’t like doing WvW but it’s necessary for the Gift of Battle.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

@Raknar.4735 said:That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

Rewards are the primary means to keep players doing content. A lot of people don’t like map completion but it’s required to get Legendaries (if not buying them). A lot of players don’t like doing WvW but it’s necessary for the Gift of Battle.

LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

I vehemently disagree, fun is what keeps players doing content. Many people don't even go for legendaries. A lot of players like playing WvW even though they get bad rewards.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

@Raknar.4735 said:That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

@Raknar.4735 said:That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing,

Then explain why the Heart of Thorns wings are so much more popular.Apart from w4 that is popular due to being the easiest, the popularity of others is due to them being the first wings (they got caught in the initial hype at first, and now people are just used to them already), and the legendary armor. New wings are unpopular because ring just isn't as good as armor, but also because when they released, raid popularity has already started to wane. There were only few new raiders, and many of the old ones weren't interested anymore. So yeah, rewards do matter, even if they are not the only factor. CMs... not so much.

Remember, though, that the popularity of w5 was the lowest even when it still offered LIs instead of LDs. Higher difficulty made players
less
interested in it, not more.

I agree that rewards are way more important than CMs. Better rewards increase Raid popularity, CMs keep current Raiders busy for a bit longer.But even more important than rewards I think it's the popularity of the game as a whole as those joining -just for raids- shouldn't be any kind of high number. Maybe they'll stay and enjoy Raids more than anything else, but I can't imagine anyone reading about Guild Wars 2 and saying "I'll play this game because it has the best Raids". Arenanet should put some serious effort in bringing new players in.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

@Raknar.4735 said:That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

Why can’t you answer the question?

The point I have been making is that rewards is a bigger driver in getting players to do content than it being fun. I used the two extremes to show this as out of the two, one would always be preferred.

You are also ignoring that many find challenging content to be quite enjoyable over the brain dead auto attack spamming of open world. Raids were designed and intended for those that wanted challenging content. If you don’t find them fun because of the challenge then obviously they were not intended for you.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

I don't think i'm in the minority here. I don't think most people play games just to get rewards. They play because gaming is fun.

for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

@Raknar.4735 said:That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

There are no amalgamated gemstones in WvW, yet people still play that. The rewards are worse there, yet they still play WvW.What about all the players that do the World Bosses on core Tyria? There's still plenty of them, even though it is barely rewarding.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

Yeah, and adding more rewards to raids will not change that appeal. Raids will get a short time boost, then start to decline pretty fast again.

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

Why can’t you answer the question?

Because the question is simply stupid. I answered it by saying that there isn't any activity that is only rewards, and there isn't any activity that is only fun. Some people have fun by simply playing the auction house.

Edit because you edited again:

The point I have been making is that rewards is a bigger driver in getting players to do content than it being fun. I used the two extremes to show this as out of the two, one would always be preferred.

You are also ignoring that many find challenging content to be quite enjoyable over the brain dead auto attack spamming of open world. Raids were designed and intended for those that wanted challenging content. If you don’t find them fun because of the challenge then obviously they were not intended for you.

Yeah, no. Rewards are a short time drive. Fun is long time. And we want raids to survive and thrive.I'm not ignoring the fact that many find challenging content to be enjoyable, this thread was about increasing player activity. I don't find raids challenging, they are quite easy, i stated that before. But i guess you can't see the bigger picture.You think that i correlate fun to easier content, and as i already said, that is not the case.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

I don't think i'm in the minority here. I don't think most people play games just to get rewards. They play because gaming is fun.

They ideally would want both but if given a choice of one or the other, they’d go for rewards. This has shown to be evident throughout the game over the past seven years.

for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

@Raknar.4735 said:That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

There are no amalgamated gemstones in WvW, yet people still play that. The rewards are worse there, yet they still play WvW.What about all the players that do the World Bosses on core Tyria? There's still plenty of them, even though it is barely rewarding.

Skirmish rewards bring in PvE players. WvW would be an exception just as players who playing other online PvP games do it to compete over other players. PvE players have always wanted to be rewarded and their lack of participating in large numbers towards content with few rewards is evident. Not many do LS4 metas and players certainly abandoned Istan quickly when the rewards got nerfed.

World bosses are content that you actively do for like two minutes and then AFK for another thirteen minutes until the next. This isn’t the direction you’d want the game to go. Trust me.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

Yeah, and adding more rewards to raids will not change that appeal. Raids will get a short time boost, then start to decline pretty fast again.

Depends on the rewards and whether the monetary reward like fractals have are added. At the moment raids have become something you do once a week. If the boss chests had a daily reward tied to them, chances are you’d see more players doing raid bosses through the week.

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

Why can’t you answer the question?

Because the question is simply stupid. I answered it by saying that there isn't any activity that is only rewards, and there isn't any activity that is only fun. Some people have fun by simply playing the auction house.

And you were missing the point that I was making which I elaborated in an edit as you were making this post.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

I don't think i'm in the minority here. I don't think most people play games just to get rewards. They play because gaming is fun.

They ideally would want both but if given a choice of one or the other, they’d go for rewards. This has shown to be evident throughout the game over the past seven years.

Obviously not, as shown throughout the game, people still play for fun. And they will always prefer fun. It's obvious we have different prespectives on this, and this discussion will continue to be one side on the side of rewards, the other on the side of fun.

for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

@Raknar.4735 said:That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

There are no amalgamated gemstones in WvW, yet people still play that. The rewards are worse there, yet they still play WvW.What about all the players that do the World Bosses on core Tyria? There's still plenty of them, even though it is barely rewarding.

Skirmish rewards bring in PvE players. WvW would be an exception just as players who playing other online PvP games do it to compete over other players. PvE players have always wanted to be rewarded and their lack of participating in large numbers towards content with few rewards is evident. Not many do LS4 metas and players certainly abandoned Istan quickly when the rewards got nerfed.

Yeah, but you don't want PvE players in WvW, you want players that want to play WvW. They play it for fun, not for the rewards. Obviously the players don't do the maps because they aren't fun. The Istan-map farmers weren't even a huge part of the community, just those wanting to build legendaries / buying something fast. If rewards was all the players wanted, they would just "farm" in real life and convert it to gold ingame.

World bosses are content that you actively do for like two minutes and then AFK for another thirteen minutes until the next. This isn’t the direction you’d want the game to go. Trust me.

You do that, if everyone would do that, the World boss would never complete. So not everyone is afk. Guess some people do really play the game.(Edit: I think i've missunderstood what you said, I've originally understood you saying that you're afk during the boss, then active for 2 minutes to get the rewards, while the others do the work.I appreciate World Bosses like Tequatl / Triple Trouble / Chak Gerent that take longer)

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

Yeah, and adding more rewards to raids will not change that appeal. Raids will get a short time boost, then start to decline pretty fast again.

Depends on the rewards and whether the monetary reward like fractals have are added. At the moment raids have become something you do once a week. If the boss chests had a daily reward tied to them, chances are you’d see more players doing raid bosses through the week.

I'll stick with my opinion that rewards will not let raids survive / increase the player activity longterm, making them daily will probably even kill them faster.

Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

Why can’t you answer the question?

Because the question is simply stupid. I answered it by saying that there isn't any activity that is only rewards, and there isn't any activity that is only fun. Some people have fun by simply playing the auction house.

And you were missing the point that I was making which I elaborated in an edit as you were making this post.

Same goes for you :)

I really don't think our discussion will be any more helpful to this thread, we're just discussing things over and over again, using the same arguments without stats. It's obvious no one can change the others' opinion about the rewards/fun-thing and what is more important for the players. I'll just call it quits here. Feel free to answer again, but i really don't see a point in continuing this. (Won't answer again, since i think we're just wasting our time here)

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@Glider.5792 said:If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6? If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

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@Xar.6279 said:You don't have to reinvent the wheel...It's commonly known how to increase raiding scene in your game. You just have to:

  • release new wings (Pretty fast, but not too fast. And regularly. To make raiders feels safe and let them plan when they'll progress)

  • have a good long-term reward system (which won't get bored after few wings)

Gw2 failed in both aspects. In the current situation it is probably impossible for raiding scene to reborn tbh. Because too many people which loves to raid already quit. And it will be very difficult to make them come back, because many of them feel cheated. They came here to raid. They took their time to learn the game. And they received 2/3/4 bosses per year.

Honestly wings 1 to 3 had some good rewards outside of legendary armor collection stuff, really nice weapon skins as well as the portal thingy. Matthias staff is still one of the best staves in game.

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I think both rewards and fun factor are really importand and go and in hand. Dont forget, fun is subjective and it means something diff for every group of the gw2 community. A bunch of ppl find fun collecting things, doing collections unlocking skins etc, others in just playing some light hearted easy contend and others in challenging themseles and becoming better. I'd say these are the main 3 groups of ppl in any mmo.

Saying raids need to be fun is more improtand than raids need to be rewarding is silly imo. Both, equally imo introduce ppl into some piece of content and both to diff extends keep ppl playing and comming back for more depending on what they find fun.

As mentioned in another thread players get burned out on doing the same thing over and over even if they found it fun and even if its rewarding. Thats where the cadence of release really comes into play, if raids come out relatively fast ppl can be more accepting of a raid that wasnt as fun for the or the rewards werent as good because they know that soon enough there will be a new one. If raids come out slowly and communication regarding them is scarce then why would ppl be accepting of an unsatisfactory release if theres uncertainty in the horizon.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Glider.5792 said:If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6? If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

The problem is they are still to hard for the majority of players to try. I havent done it yet myself, but ive looked up videos and its mostly just doing the mechanics and not dying, but you do have to have a certain level of competence that is pretty lacking across this player base.

Honestly: Raid difficulty levels seems likes a good idea(Heresy i know, please dont kill me), Easy, normal., Hard, Impossible(CM essentially). With the bosses dropping more loot depending on the level(You can still get all the rewards on easy, just takes quite a bit longer). Easy and Normal would be once a week for rewards as well, while Hard and Impossible could be ran more than once with diminishing returns per repeated trys.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@Glider.5792 said:If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6? If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

The problem is they are still to hard for the majority of players to try. I havent done it yet myself, but ive looked up videos and its mostly just doing the mechanics and not dying, but you do have to have a certain level of competence that is pretty lacking across this player base.

Honestly: Raid difficulty levels seems likes a good idea(Heresy i know, please dont kill me), Easy, normal., Hard, Impossible(CM essentially). With the bosses dropping more loot depending on the level(You can still get all the rewards on easy, just takes quite a bit longer). Easy and Normal would be once a week for rewards as well, while Hard and Impossible could be ran more than once with diminishing returns per repeated trys.

Nah just 2, nm and cm make nm easier and cm harder. The more dificulties the more resources it will take. And i think the weekly deal they run now in is fine.

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