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Kralkatorrik's domains, Jormag's domains, possibly Primordus' domains are revealed now.


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@Ototo.3214 said:That still doesn't really convince me that it's the same thing as Jormag. Many of those come across as him actually getting into someone's mind, which is his domain, and all of those examples are sylvari. His minions. Jormag on the other hand can be seen corrupting just about anything and I don't really see it as him/her literally getting into someone's mind but him/her actually making a convincing offer that some willingly accept. At least to me, manipulative mind control is different than actual persuasion.

Mordremoth didn't need to get into someone's mind to corrupt them. He could easily corrupt their bodies, slowly turning them into plants (as we see done with Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves), or toss their bodies (living or - thanks to Zhaitan's magic - dead) into blighting pods. Mordremoth only got into the minds of sylvari, who could not be corrupted traditional ways due to the Pale Tree's protection.

Jormag does get into people's minds when trying to persuade them - the whispers of power are literally telepathy, and the Dragonspawn uses hypnotism to try to force Zojja to want that offering of power.

Both are mental mindfuckeries, even though they're slightly different methods of doing that. And they're far closer to each other than how Kralkatorrik uses the Mind domain in S4 (giving his minions shared spacial cognition).

@"Narcemus.1348" said:I would agree, there is a difference between having a conversation with someone that has a really high charisma and having your mind manipulated with magic.

When that conversation with that high charisma someone takes place in your mind, then the difference is a lot more blurred. When "having your mind manipulated with magic" takes the form of thoughts being implanted in your head, the difference is even more blurred.

While what's said is different, both Jormag and Mordremoth use telepathy into the minds of others as their secondary domain.

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Do we know that jormag uses Telepathy, though? We know that his minions do. We know that Drakkar and Dragonspawn had telepathic capabilities, but that doesn't mean that jormag does. It could very well be similar to Zhaitan's mesmeric minions, it doesn't mean that he has mind magic just because his minions do. I could be wrong, but I do not know that anyone has been talked to in their mind directly by jormag.

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@"Narcemus.1348" said:Do we know that jormag uses Telepathy, though? We know that his minions do. We know that Drakkar and Dragonspawn had telepathic capabilities, but that doesn't mean that jormag does. It could very well be similar to Zhaitan's mesmeric minions, it doesn't mean that he has mind magic just because his minions do. I could be wrong, but I do not know that anyone has been talked to in their mind directly by jormag.

http://web.archive.org/web/20160304181626/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

Here, Jeff Grubb states that Jormag has "definite mind-altering powers".

http://web.archive.org/web/20160306130059/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_19649.png

From same post, "And "voice" may be what the norn feel when their minds are caressed by Jormag".

Seems like Drakkar was just a conduit for Jormag to mentally affect Svanir and the earlier Sons of Svanir. Other champions - or Jormag's corruption in general - may do the same.

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Sadly, we do have to remember that dev comments aren't canon and can be changed. I am not trying to debate over semantics, I'm just trying to find a way to explain this weird and somewhat undesirable situation (fury, seriously?) And have it make some sense.

It becomes difficult, though because they initially set up the secondary domains as magics that could be transferred between dragons, but these new ones feel more like motives or mindsets. Like Zhaitan' shadow domain had more to do with the way that he demoralized his enemies, and kralkatorrik's fury has to so with his anger, and perhaps configuration could have more to do with stirring up conflict, but it all falls apart once way or another...

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Ototo.3214 said:That still doesn't really convince me that it's the same thing as Jormag. Many of those come across as him actually getting into someone's mind, which is his domain, and all of those examples are sylvari. His minions. Jormag on the other hand can be seen corrupting just about anything and I don't really see it as him/her literally getting into someone's mind but him/her actually making a convincing offer that some willingly accept. At least to me, manipulative mind control is different than actual persuasion.

Mordremoth didn't need to get into someone's mind to corrupt them. He could easily corrupt their bodies, slowly turning them into plants (as we see done with Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves), or toss their bodies (living or - thanks to Zhaitan's magic - dead) into blighting pods. Mordremoth only got into the minds of sylvari, who could not be corrupted traditional ways due to the Pale Tree's protection.

Jormag does get into people's minds when trying to persuade them - the whispers of power are literally telepathy, and the Dragonspawn uses hypnotism to try to force Zojja to want that offering of power.

Both are mental mindfuckeries, even though they're slightly different methods of doing that. And they're far closer to each other than how Kralkatorrik uses the Mind domain in S4 (giving his minions shared spacial cognition).

@"Narcemus.1348" said:I would agree, there is a difference between having a conversation with someone that has a really high charisma and having your mind manipulated with magic.

When that conversation with that high charisma someone takes place in your mind, then the difference is a
lot
more blurred. When "having your mind manipulated with magic" takes the form of thoughts being implanted in your head, the difference is
even more
blurred.

While what's said is different, both Jormag and Mordremoth use telepathy into the minds of others as their secondary domain.

Being a different mode might well be enough to classify it as a different domain of magic, even if it has a similar end result. Looking at GW1 mesmer spells, for instance, Domination spells tended to seem work by instilling a particular emotion, while Illusion spells worked by, well, illusions, but they could often result in similar effects. Punishment hexes, for instance, were available for both, and in the necromancer Curses line as well. So there's three different ways across two professions to achieve pretty much the same result.

Or to give another example, pretty much everyone has a way to produce flame and/or set something on fire, even if Fire magic specifically is an elementalist thing.

Just because the ends may be similar does not necessarily require that the means are also the same. Hypnotism, for instance, sounds like an illusion effect, while Mordremoth's techniques are probably more akin to GW1-style Domination, implanting thoughts and emotions directly into the mind of the victim.

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Was is interesting as Mordremoth being the mind dragon, he didn’t seem to use the mind domain to his full potential. Why didn’t he just mind control the other races and then lure them into blighting Pods. The only creatures that seemed to be susceptible to his mind control were the Sylvari. Maybe this will be explored with other dragons using the domain differently.

I’m also trying to look more into this fury domain of magic and try to make sense of it. Fury of the brand, some branded use fury and attacks that have fury in the name. Am I missing anything else?

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@"Tyson.5160" said:Was is interesting as Mordremoth being the mind dragon, he didn’t seem to use the mind domain to his full potential. Why didn’t he just mind control the other races and then lure them into blighting Pods. The only creatures that seemed to be susceptible to his mind control were the Sylvari. Maybe this will be explored with other dragons using the domain differently.

I’m also trying to look more into this fury domain of magic and try to make sense of it. Fury of the brand, some branded use fury and attacks that have fury in the name. Am I missing anything else?

the only clue we had about is the special enviroment mechanic "fury of brand" introduced in Pof. but still vague, the lightning strikes can be labeled as any synonym of violence, like "heavens rage" etc.

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The only kernel I can offer is that perhaps Mind and Persuasion differ in the sense that one is more akin to mental dominance and influence, telepathy, and mind reading, whereas the other is more social and interpersonal. Persuasion being about charisma and person to person influence, being a skilled debater and smooth talker to the point that you can easily sway people with your words and arguments, your force of personality, etc. You can make yourself more appealing or less menacing just through your speech and actions.

And then Mind is more... mind flayer stuff. Subjugation and mind games (literally). Asserting your commands and desires above another’s. Trying to attract them with the advantage of intimately knowing their mind, or being able to project/implant your thoughts into theirs.

Not that Mord wasn’t subtle and cunning, but I think a lot of that extended from his ability to have a figurative window into the minds of others. Jormag might not be able to interact with/read the mind in the same way, but perhaps they’re exceptionally skilled sussing out someone’s desires and insecurities through more mundane tactics alone.

Edit: and Kralk and Prim’s domains are.. eh. I like the idea of Fury connecting to storms and chaos, but seems so abstract and random. Conflagration I guess makes sense for the most destructive ED but it’s meaning is so closely linked with fire that it’s hard not to view it as redundant.

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I'm actually thinking now that the secondary domains are not really domains of magic but descriptions Anet assigned to each dragon before or during their awakening. Zhaitan always being the shadow beyond the light of The Six. Mordremoth breaking the mind of Sylvari to speed up the awakening. Kralkatorrik rising in fury at the betrayal by his own kin. Jormag persuading the Nornbear to accept the power that would further his own legend in exchange of complacence to Jormag's rise. Primordus threatening to rise in the wake of the conflagration amongst the dwarves.

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@"Svennis.3852" said:The only kernel I can offer is that perhaps Mind and Persuasion differ in the sense that one is more akin to mental dominance and influence, telepathy, and mind reading, whereas the other is more social and interpersonal. Persuasion being about charisma and person to person influence, being a skilled debater and smooth talker to the point that you can easily sway people with your words and arguments, your force of personality, etc. You can make yourself more appealing or less menacing just through your speech and actions.

And then Mind is more... mind flayer stuff. Subjugation and mind games (literally). Asserting your commands and desires above another’s. Trying to attract them with the advantage of intimately knowing their mind, or being able to project/implant your thoughts into theirs.

Not that Mord wasn’t subtle and cunning, but I think a lot of that extended from his ability to have a figurative window into the minds of others. Jormag might not be able to interact with/read the mind in the same way, but perhaps they’re exceptionally skilled sussing out someone’s desires and insecurities through more mundane tactics alone.

Edit: and Kralk and Prim’s domains are.. eh. I like the idea of Fury connecting to storms and chaos, but seems so abstract and random. Conflagration I guess makes sense for the most destructive ED but it’s meaning is so closely linked with fire that it’s hard not to view it as redundant.

Problem is that persuasion via mundane means isn't going to be a magical domain. So unless @DaFishBob.6518 is right and the second domain isn't supposed to be a magical domain at all (in which case, all of the non-crystal stuff that Kralkatorrik has is difficult to explain), mundane persuasion doesn't fit with being a secondary domain.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:The only kernel I can offer is that perhaps Mind and Persuasion differ in the sense that one is more akin to mental dominance and influence, telepathy, and mind reading, whereas the other is more social and interpersonal. Persuasion being about charisma and person to person influence, being a skilled debater and smooth talker to the point that you can easily sway people with your words and arguments, your force of personality, etc. You can make yourself more appealing or less menacing just through your speech and actions.

And then Mind is more... mind flayer stuff. Subjugation and mind games (literally). Asserting your commands and desires above another’s. Trying to attract them with the advantage of intimately knowing their mind, or being able to project/implant your thoughts into theirs.

Not that Mord wasn’t subtle and cunning, but I think a lot of that extended from his ability to have a figurative window into the minds of others. Jormag might not be able to interact with/read the mind in the same way, but perhaps they’re exceptionally skilled sussing out someone’s desires and insecurities through more mundane tactics alone.

Edit: and Kralk and Prim’s domains are.. eh. I like the idea of Fury connecting to storms and chaos, but seems so abstract and random. Conflagration I guess makes sense for the most destructive ED but it’s meaning is so closely linked with fire that it’s hard not to view it as redundant.

Problem is that persuasion via mundane means isn't going to be a magical domain. So unless @DaFishBob.6518 is right and the second domain isn't supposed to be a magical domain at all (in which case, all of the non-crystal stuff that Kralkatorrik has is difficult to explain), mundane persuasion doesn't fit with being a secondary domain.

Well, I guess when I say mundane I don't necessarily mean non-magical. I just mean the magic is in the interaction.

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@adormtil.1605 said:Jormag persuasion? No he has true mind control not the kitten kind where you still have an will but you can not control your actions. No in Jormag's case his will is your will. Jormag is the true mind controller.

That's mordremoth for Sylvari.

Jormag manipulates you and gets you to accept the power and corruption. There is not been any mentioned cases of what you mention, in regards to Jormag.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:More accurately, that's how every Elder Dragon's minions are. Risen, branded, destroyers, mordrem, and even icebrood all lack free will - their dragon's will is their will. That's one of the "horrors" of being corrupted. You're aware of your actions, but you can't help but follow the Elder Dragon's commands.

Correct actually, thinking about it. I was thinking in a different manner or pre-icebrood status.

But we have heard of a former branded mentioning what Konig said. Being trapped within his own body for years until the pact finally "killed him" and freed his spirit.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The new domains are rather disappointing to me, tbh. I mean, what even is "Fury magic"? And how is Persuasion any different than Mordremoth's Mind which he used to persuade sylvari to join him. Meanwhile, "Fire and Conflagration" are pretty much synonyms.

It feels like the only Elder Dragon who's second domain was given any significant thought for showcasing was Mordremoth's Mind (and that, itself, was unnecessary given the way it was used), and the rest are just there because they backed themselves into a corner, and rather than exploring the potential of additional domains that they don't predominantly use, they just made something that reflects their personality instead of their powers.

Agreed. It seems to me that they picked "Fury" as Kraalkatorrik's second domain just because he was angry all the time thanks to the Torment's influence, but that, as you said, just reflect his personality and not really his powers. They could have chosen "Chaos" and it would have been much more fitting , imo.Same with Jormag's "Persuasion" and Primordus "Conflagration". It doesn't seem like they put much thought into it, which is sad.

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@Sir Alric.5078 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The new domains are rather disappointing to me, tbh. I mean, what even
is
"Fury magic"? And how is Persuasion any different than Mordremoth's Mind which he used to persuade sylvari to join him. Meanwhile, "Fire and Conflagration" are pretty much synonyms.

It feels like the only Elder Dragon who's second domain was given any significant thought for showcasing was Mordremoth's Mind (and that, itself, was unnecessary given the way it was used), and the rest are just there because they backed themselves into a corner, and rather than exploring the potential of additional domains that they don't predominantly use, they just made something that reflects their personality instead of their powers.

Agreed. It seems to me that they picked "Fury" as Kraalkatorrik's second domain just because he was angry all the time thanks to the Torment's influence, but that, as you said, just reflect his personality and not really his powers. They could have chosen "Chaos" and it would have been much more fitting , imo.Same with Jormag's "Persuasion" and Primordus "Conflagration". It doesn't seem like they put much thought into it, which is sad.

I’m beginning to think that these secondary domains are not as impactful as their primary domain. We barely see Zhaitan use the Shadow domain, other then a few Risen using Shadow magic. Mordremoth used the mind domain in regards to the Sylvari. I don’t ever recall any Mordrem having any mind domain abilities. When Kralkatorrik absorbed the mind sphere, the branded communicated better between themselves, however we never really saw any evidence of them acting any differently then say Branded in Ascalon. If Primordus or Jormag absorbed the fury domain, would there be any difference? Will the Icebrood or Destroyers be more furious or would they act the same as before.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:More accurately, that's how
every
Elder Dragon's minions are. Risen, branded, destroyers, mordrem, and even icebrood all lack free will - their dragon's will is their will. That's one of the "horrors" of being corrupted. You're aware of your actions, but you can't help but follow the Elder Dragon's commands.

Correct actually, thinking about it. I was thinking in a different manner or pre-icebrood status.

But we have heard of a former branded mentioning what Konig said. Being trapped within his own body for years until the pact finally "killed him" and freed his spirit.

Here is the thing in case of Jormag you are not trapped inside your own body and doing things without any control. You do things knowingly like we do when we do anything. Its not an out of body experience. I do not know how to say it better. Master Mind Control.

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@adormtil.1605 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:More accurately, that's how
every
Elder Dragon's minions are. Risen, branded, destroyers, mordrem, and even icebrood all lack free will - their dragon's will is their will. That's one of the "horrors" of being corrupted. You're aware of your actions, but you can't help but follow the Elder Dragon's commands.

Correct actually, thinking about it. I was thinking in a different manner or pre-icebrood status.

But we have heard of a former branded mentioning what Konig said. Being trapped within his own body for years until the pact finally "killed him" and freed his spirit.

Here is the thing in case of Jormag you are not trapped inside your own body and doing things without any control. You do things knowingly like we do when we do anything. Its not an out of body experience. I do not know how to say it better. Master Mind Control.

It's not exactly an out of body experience for risen or branded either though. Being enslaved to the Elder Dragon is the core definition of what a dragon minion - any dragon minion - is.

What makes Jormag different is that unlike the other Elder Dragons, Jormag prefers to corrupt those who come willingly to them, while the others will forcibly corrupt everyone. But once corrupted, whether branded or icebrood, you're enslaved to the dragon's will, and you don't even consider the very concept of betraying that will.

Thing is, the "different from all other Elder Dragons" thing was stated before Mordremoth became a thing to the story, and in the end, Mordremoth also played the "corrupt mainly those who willingly join them" card with sylvari - or rather, Mordremoth could only turn those sylvari who joined him willingly.

Both Jormag skirt around that "join willingly" aspect too - the Dragonspawn would use hypnosis to get enemies to 'willingly' accept Jormag's influence and Drakkar would whisper promises and offerings, while Mordremoth would whisper thoughts that sound like the victim's own or bombard them with thoughts that drove them to Mordremoth just to make it stop.

In the end, their mental methods of coercion were only slightly different. And once corrupted, all five known types of dragon minions were mentally the same, more or less.

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In Honor of the Waves an son of svanir something convinced the religious leader of the bear people by bombarding her with submit submit submit until she submitted and then became an follower of Jormag. I do not know if Mordremoth can do that also to more then Sylvari. Even if he can Jormag does it better because he can do it to more types of races and can do it trough minions.

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Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Accept the power of Dragon!Honor's Voice: Leave me in peace! I beg you!Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Walk in the path of Dragon!Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Receive Dragon's Gift! Its blood is your blood!

This is the dialogue you're referring to. There's nothing about submitting. Kodan's Bane just outright corrupts the Honor's Voice and that's all there is to it. No submission, no persuasion. It's just point blank corruption. A lot of Sons of Svanir do this to others, hence my above use of "primarily" when talking about Jormag's preference of corrupting the willing - it's not a universal thing that Jormag only corrupts the willing. To which point, every Elder Dragons' champions are capable of doing what Kodan's Bane did.

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Have you seen any other dragon champion besides Jormag's bothering to convince their future dragon minions to accept their corruption? Kralkatorix just brands you and makes you an prisoner in your own body to put it like that. I do not not remember any dragon champion of Mordremoth besides the elder Dragon himself going the convincing way. I do not know any of the champions of Primordius doing that and Zaithan well he killed you and raised you as an undead or made your body an undead so do his champions. Wonder if that can be reversed or if its usless against undead made from other sources like Joko's awakened.

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@"adormtil.1605" said:Have you seen any other dragon champion besides Jormag's bothering to convince their future dragon minions to accept their corruption?

Yes. The risen do it all the time.

One famous example:

Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: I see in your heart that you have lost someone to Zhaitan. Someone named.... She/He is waiting for you now, beneath the dragon's wings...Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: All the death around you. All those who have gone before you. Come to Zhaitan, and find everything you have lost. You can be with them again.

The risen have less success because they just use words (and sometimes illusions) to instill fear, while icebrood use magical mental influences, but it's there. Both risen and icebrood do try to force their way to corrupt either way.

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