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Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 6th 2019


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  • ArenaNet Staff

Greetings again all,

Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

  • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
  • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
  • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
  • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

Items

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer

  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
  • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 60 seconds in WvW.
  • Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
  • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
  • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

Guardian

  • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants aegis or retaliation.
  • Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.
  • Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.

Mesmer

  • Illusion of Life: ~~Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW ~~ Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
  • Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities that is already on cooldown by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
  • Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
  • Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

Necromancer

  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

Ranger

  • Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.

Revenant

  • Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.
  • Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

Thief

  • Deadly Ambition: Reduce the poison inflicted by this trait from 2 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 2 seconds in PvP & WvW. Reduce the internal cooldown from 5s to 2s in PvP & WvW.

Warrior

  • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
  • Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.
  • Sight Beyond Sight: Increase the radius of this ability to reveal hidden enemies up to 600 range away.
  • Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

Thanks once again for your feedback and for keeping things focused.

Sincerely,~Irenio

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Engineer's purge gyro staying at 5 pulses is very nice to hear.

Sneak Gyro getting an increased cooldown isn't really necessary -- it wouldn't change anything except to cause the engineer to stay at a safe distance for even longer [EDIT] while they wait for the cooldown to end. You'd be better off looking at Thief if you're going to tone down anything's stealth. (But as a Deadeye, please don't <3 )

Also, as someone who is new to Mesmer, all these changes to the class is making the learning process a little uncomfortable.

As for Warrior... I say this again -- can we please get some kind of downside to Endure Pain?

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

Awesome the the feedback is being listened too! May I implore you again to reconsider to Fury on Charge with Quickbreathing traited? We have a great source of group Fury via For Great Justice already and adding it to Charge would be redundant.

Can you consider instead Retaliation or Stability? Are the any changes planned for Shouts and Vigorous Shouts?

If you have Vigorous Shouts provide adrenaline per Ally affected instead of a flat 5, then I can already see an amazing DPS/support Berserker build.

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I think I'd be wise to change holographic shockwave in a manner that allows a properly timed evade etc to avoid the cc cuz u know counter play and all lol. U shouldn't HAVE to have stability to avoid the knockdown. As it stands now u can evade at the correct time but the cc wave effectively outlast the evade frame making proper use of a evade useless which is kind of stupid.

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Glad you are adjusting Antitoxin runes. It will still allow the wielder to be essentially immune to condis, but it is better than its current implementation.

While on the topic of runes: I would suggest you look into adjusting Tormenting Runes. I run a build that totally abuses these (Condi Rev) and the healing you can yield from just the runes alone is quite silly. It is nothing particularly remarkable on builds with mediocre torment access, but for those with high accessibility, they are completely absurd. I'm sure we would hear more about them if more meta builds actually used them. As someone who has used them almost every single day since they were reworked, I can assuredly say they are broken and unhealthy with their current functionality. I appreciate that your rework of runes pushed towards creating more build-defining options, but there comes a point where a build's viability is carried too hard by a rune set. That is too far down the spectrum, just like Antitoxin runes have been.

I appreciate you scaling up the healing power coefficients for Scourge barrier skills. Will these apply to PvE as well?

I saw somebody suggest adding an AoE vuln application to Detection Pulse so the toolbelt skill retains a semblance of relevance for PvE; personally I think this is a fantastic idea and wouldn't make it such a niche skill for a change that is very blatantly a WvW change.

Also thank you for showing us your thought process more by posting a follow-up like this. Honestly it feels like you listened to a fair amount of the feedback. Glad you are looking into Sand Savant as well. What exactly are you worried about as far as its impact on PvE? Is it not an inferior GM choice for DPS? If so, what harm is there in retaining its 10 target functionality while pushing it deeper in the realm of support and less in the realm of offense?

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Also,while i agree with the need to change antitoxin, you have to have a close look at conditions in wvw so we don't slip back into the condition overload garbage that was post PoF and post HoT. The massive condi cleanse that antitoxin scrapper currently brings into the meta is the only thing that makes scourge at least a bit bearable. If one side isn't balanced exactly the same as the other you are back to full trailblazer scourges within a week.

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Great initiative, WvW is one of the best gamemodes a MMORPG ever had and it needs changes in its meta and balance is the way to go.I overall agree with these changes, I would also like to see more balance updates about WvW, and a bit part of that is balancing sigils and runes. This is very important because it is the real main reason to why the gamemode is at the moment a big mess. Purification sigils (3 condi clear on weapon swap) for example is truly overpowered for a PvP gamemode.

I still believe that this game/gamemode can be great again and there are many people that would join the GW2 adventure because of its massive "open world" pvp.

I wanted to end this comment with a few words about roaming. It is such a great way to play the game and is nowaday very hard to do so. I think that there are stuff to do about this.Anyway, that's really a good thing that you do balance the WvW again.

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Most of these changes do look great!However, I do want to raise one point.

Currently guardians are the only class that gives groups stability in a reliable manner. That means that no matter how many times you nerf them, they will still be needed.Please consider giving another class access to some stability they could share with the group.

Nerfing Firebrand to the ground isnt gonna make things better, but giving a viable replacement that could substitute firebrands would be a much much better change.

Best suggestion i can give here is to give the Elementalist trait in earth that grands protection on auras (named Elemental Shielding) let it also give 2 stacks for stab for 3 seconds). This will make aura share tempest viable finally as it will be able to maintain stability on their party with auras.

Or any other class/spec should be able to share some stability.

Thank you for the changes.

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@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:Greetings again all,

Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

  • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
  • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
  • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
  • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

Items

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer

  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
  • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 60 seconds in WvW.
  • Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
  • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
  • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

Guardian

  • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants aegis or retaliation.
  • Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.
  • Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.

Mesmer

  • Illusion of Life: ~~Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW ~~ Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
  • Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities that is already on cooldown by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
  • Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
  • Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

Necromancer

  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

Ranger

  • Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.

Revenant

  • Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.
  • Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

Thief

  • Deadly Ambition: Reduce the poison inflicted by this trait from 2 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 2 seconds in PvP & WvW. Reduce the internal cooldown from 5s to 2s in PvP & WvW.

Warrior

  • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
  • Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.
  • Sight Beyond Sight: Increase the radius of this ability to reveal hidden enemies up to 600 range away.
  • Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

Thanks once again for your feedback and for keeping things focused.

Sincerely,~Irenio

As an FB main, thank you for not taking all of our aegis away. I think this is a a great direction for change. This won’t completely change the way I play in wvw too negatively.

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  • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?Combat would shift from being largely a power based fight to power/conditions

  • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?Well, the same classes that are currently part of the WvW meta won't change much, we will just add more. You need to give other support specializations a bit more love

  • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?It will allow stealth countering to return, break up the pure power meta, and hopefully start the crack open the door for other support specializations

  • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?Conditions being too powerful or other support classes not getting enough buffs.

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.Good.

Engineer

  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
  • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 60 seconds in WvW.
  • Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
  • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
  • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.Good changes overall. Will still be a needed class to counter stealth

Guardian

  • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants aegis or retaliation.
  • Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.
  • Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.While I don't mind the lessening of stability from the skill...you really need to help other classes/specializations if you are going to do this. Someone else also needs to be able to bring stability in an mobile AOE fashion similar to Guardian and be support orientated. Such as giving support wells on Chronomancer more help.

Mesmer

  • Illusion of Life: ~~Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW ~~ Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
  • Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities that is already on cooldown by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
  • Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
  • Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.Ok. Can we please rework support wells now? Have them pulse around the user while they move. Add barrier based on healing / aegis and some stability. Support wells are a poor design in combat that requires active dodging and movement when the reward for staying them is so low. Treat them similar to Scrapper Gyros

Necromancer

  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.Glad these changes are happening and I am looking forward to how you will address Sand Savant. Scourge makes so many other classes irrelevant in WvW (like reaper for the most part) due to its ranged corrupt / damage mitigation / ranged damage that other classes get punished for for being in melee.

Ranger

  • Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.Bless you and your children and pets.

Revenant

  • Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.
  • Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.Looks good

ElementalistTry giving tempest a shout that gives a little stability or barrier......

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Im still waiting on yall to revert the chrono shatter changes. That is and will always be the most stupid descission ive ever seen a company make for a class, your genuinly making the class close to useless in both PvP and WvW, as for PvE, its barely noticeable so i dont understand what in the world made yall screw over a spec that much.

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Thanks for paying us some attention here. This is a great start --

I do see a majority of defense skill nerfs. Not very many offense skill nerfs. Fights are so so quick in PoF meta, and I believe these will speed up fights even more.

Also, Purity of Purpose is still way overtuned even with Antitoxin nerf. I believe it should only convert 1 condi to boon per second per player. Something like that.

Please look at the offense skills a bit more, Revs have more than CoR that burst people down, and Scourge/Warriors are also contributing a lot.

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Is this real life or is this just fantasy?! The Devs are not just asking for our input but are now responding to it and making changes!

Chrono still needs to be looked into, Mesmer does not have much use left in zergs <\3.

Extremely pleased to see this and hope it continues! ( May just start buying something(s) form the Gem store again.)

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On the whole they look fairly good however this one raises an eyebrow to me:

Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.

Would your gameplay change as a result? How?Personally not much because we run fairly tight squads but I can see that guy near the back now only getting 3 stacks instead of 5 from his guardian and none from anyone else because of proximity priority. I can see revs running brutality and s/he's fish food in 2 hits.

Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?Worsen a little as it makes stab a little easier to rip with CC and it's not like we have great sources of stability to be shared within roles.

Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?At this point I'm not too bothered, you'll make the changes you want and I'll either like them or not and play as I have fun.

What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?My concern is that it's less stacks and so is too easy to remove through crowd control skills. I remember when you guys first switched to this stack system and there was no ICD on stack removal and it made WvW horrible to play. This change is likely to be one step towards that. Stand Your Ground and it's prominence in the game mode has been a problem for a very long time but it's been a necessary evil to make the game mode playable in the way many like to play it, big fights with an ebb and flow. If there were other sources of shared stability that could give 2-3 stacks on support specialisations then I'd be 100% in favour of stack reduction but we haven't got that yet in a palatable fashion.

Inspiring Reinforcement is kind of awkward to use and doesn't really give you the long lasting stability you need.Power Break has always been a fairly small area and due to clones instantly dying in large scale mesmer is a long way from being able to swap in for Firebrand.Dolyak Stance needs traiting for stability as well as boon duration gear but makes the spec kind of weird to play in that configuration.Toss Elixir B is OK but still kind of annoying to use due to radius like mesmer mantra.Defence Field is what SYG would be like and it's OK in a pinch but not really very good and you can tell with it being 3 stacks. It's a stacked skill though so I wouldn't say it's bad.

Additionally the duration of Stand Your Ground is 6s so meeting a 50% boon duration is easy and will extend the stability to 9s. With the above examples you would need 100% boon duration to get close to that which is a much higher investment.

Personally I'd prefer to see Stand Your Ground reverted to being 5 target but keep it's stacks. You could maybe shave 1s off the duration to make other options compete a little better but quite frankly with everything else being 5 target I think it was a big mistake to make it 10 target in the first place. I would however like to see improvements to the ability to use other forms of stability in the game, where Inspiring reinforcements have 1s longer on it's stability and the radius for toss elixir B and Power Break increased for easier use. That is outside the scope of this patch and the discussion but it's why I wouldn't want to see the change to Stand Your Ground.

Edit: TLDR: Keep 5 stacks of stability but reduce it back to 5 targets please. Maybe shave 1s off the duration if you still think it's too good.

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@freecarl.1320 said:Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.Don't nerf core guardian skills because an elite spec is overtuned. Nerf the elite spec

I think 50 stacks of stability for 12 sec (assuming you have 9 other ppl next to you and maxed boon duration) and with a personal stunbreak is an overtuned skill no matter how you look at it, it was been powerfull before anet even changed it to 10 man. You can think ppl will stop using firebrand if they nerf the spec but everyone will be still taking it for that shout + heal scrappers/ heal eles if fb will be useless. Im all for nerfing too op classes but even tome on 75 sec cd (without trait since we talking here about shout without trait as well) gives max 8 pages x 1 stab x 5 targets = 40 stab for max 8sec with cast time where the shout doesn't have one.

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@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer

  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
  • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 75 60 seconds in WvW.
  • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
  • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

Sneak Gyro: I agree with the change to 60 seconds for sneak gyro. I feel that is justified without going too far. Good job. If my suggestion helped decide this, I thank you and vow to be less cynical in the future as gratitude for listening.

Purge Gyro and Superior Rune of Antitoxin: If the interaction between Antitoxin and Purge gyro was the concerning factor, then other skills could replace this problem: Elixer gun 3 and 5, Medkit 3. Engineers traited in Inventions (Anticorrsion Plating) so that protection they apply removes conditions; remove 3 conditions in an aoe on heal skill use (1 from Cleansing Synergy, 1 from Reconstruction Enclosure triggering Anticorrosion Plating, 1 from Antitoxin. This same combination would also remove 6 conditions in an AOE mobile water field for scrappers traited this way with Reconstruction field.

I believe the problem lies only with the Superior Rune of Antitoxin. I did not see the power of that rune set. This runset would also be used by tempests overloading water or using ether renewal for personal denial of all conditions. Thieves would also benefit with the shadow arts trait Shadow's Rejuvenation. I say that this runeset is too powerful for support condition removal.

I recommend an ICD of 5 seconds but no more than 10 seconds.

Every 5 seconds, when you would remove a condition, remove an additional condition. This skill can effect multiple targets before initiating the cooldown.

This holds precedence with other runesets that have ICD's on their T6 ability. This also would still make the runeset useful, especially at a 5 second ICD which would give just enough time to get one cleanse skill off at a bonus before moving to the next. Most mass condition removal skills have a use duration under 5 seconds, allowing each skill a chance to get a small boost as was likely intended in the initial redesign of the rune set. This would also encourage more use of blast finishers in light fields by users of this rune set, to get a 2 aoe blast cleanse instead of just one.

If the change is made as presented, I doubt the runeset would be used at all except perhaps by a few organized groups. With the proposed ICD change, I believe the rune set will still see use without being overpowered.

Alternatively, the rune set could be reworked to be selfish.

When you would remove a condition on yourself, you remove one additional condition. (Possible ICD)

As the problem with the rune set is mass condition cleanse, this may alleviate the balance concern.

Holographic Shockwave: Yes, please! For what it does, compared to the warrior burst hammer bash, it has a rediciousaly huge aoe!

Chemical Field and Detection Pulse: I again suggest that Detection Pulse have some additional usage beyond stealth removal. Please consider comparing it with the ranger skill "Sick 'em" which does the same thing, but single target, but also gives a damage buff for your pet or yourself if merged with your pet as a soulbeast. I recommend an application of vulnerability or weakness for the theme of the skill, or go for synergy with the scrapper trait Expert Examination and have Detection Pulse apply a short daze - but that can be dangerous as it would be an aoe intterupt; but then again, it would be unique that way and always useful; I'd recommend reducing range to 600 in turn if this suggestion is considered.

Alternatively, Detection pulse could do the following:Reveal targets in a large area. For X seconds, when you damage a foe, you apply 1 stack of vulnerability for Y seconds. (Possible ICD)

Either way, I do not suggest simply re-inserting the skill as it was seen previously. As previously stated, it does not work in PvE, even on the rare monsters that use stealth. Its use is focused so that it is either useless the majority of the time, and slightly useful in rare situations. The skill should always have some benefit to the player if the player is to consider it a part of their build.

As previously discussed, Chemical Field was useless and I have no problems with that skill being replaced with Detection Pulse - as long as the above is considered.

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