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Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 6th 2019


Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

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Would your gameplay change as a result? How?

I still don't think, that patch will change wvw much.

Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?

Maybe slightly improve wvw. But overall dmg will still be too high.

Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?

Have kinda mixed feelings. And also feel that there are still a lot of things missing.

What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

Maybe we will se more eles. That are kinda hidden over powered right now. I bet you will see "nerf ele" for next balance patch.Ele is already the king of dmg in wvw.

But getting randomly hit by some meteors almost onehitting you, isn't fun to play either.Then I like the red floor of necro skills more.And there's also some very overpowered builds left, that onehit everything.

What I do like about the patch, that this feels like the first patch, where the community can actually do something and give constructive feedback.I do like that very much.Go on with that

And I wanna give some necro feedback. In the last thread I think I proposed, that you should increase healing modifiers of all barrier skills. After some thoughts, that's not good. Especially with the cleanse nerf to engi, as well as the desert shroud nerf and scepter 3 nerf (I said that scepter 3 is insanely overpowered, when it got changed and I think some of the nerfs are definitely justified). People would have gone back to cele scourge.And that's still what I think will happen after the patch.Especially, cause power builds will take a huge hit here.

Maybe buff some very underperforming skills as well?Like serpent siphon that isn't used in any gamemode?

What I'm hyped about is the change(s) to deathmagic, as this traitline basically gets only used by open world minionmancers and is basically dead for competitive play as well as endgame pve

And what I'm still waiting for is the Bugfix blood bond in bloodmagic traitline. As it heals for the full amount of the initial self heal of the signet.and i do think, that we Need a serious look at necro offhand weapons, as they will all be kinda lackluster

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:Greetings again all,

Thanks for the feedback regarding the
.

Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:
  • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
  • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
  • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
  • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

Items
  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer
  • Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
  • Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to
    75
    60 seconds in WvW.
  • Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
  • Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
  • Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

Guardian
  • Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants
    aegis or
    retaliation.
  • Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.
  • Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.
  • Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.

Mesmer
  • Illusion of Life: ~~Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW ~~ Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
  • Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities
    that is already on cooldown
    by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
  • Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
  • Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

Necromancer
  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

Ranger
  • Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.

Revenant
  • Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.
  • Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

Thief
  • Deadly Ambition: Reduce the poison inflicted by this trait from 2 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 2 seconds in PvP & WvW. Reduce the internal cooldown from 5s to 2s in PvP & WvW.

Warrior
  • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
  • Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.
  • Sight Beyond Sight: Increase the radius of this ability to reveal hidden enemies up to 600 range away.
  • Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

Thanks once again for your feedback and for keeping things focused.

Sincerely,~IrenioThe Sand Savant thing was addressed in another thread where someone tried to complain about Sand Savant hitting too many targets, and here you've addressed Sand Savant. The user during their video showed just how weak and pathetic the full on bomb from this skill is; it's absolutely laughable just how weak it is. It doesn't matter how many targets it hits. It's like complaining about a regular arrow cart hitting 50 people for 300 damage.

The video in question:

check out the window in the top right, total damage is the left number while damage per second is the one in parenthesis. Notice that it spikes up to 89.2k damage per second from the shade bomb alone. It's very WeAk AnD pAtHeTiC, aBsOlUtElY lAuGhAbLe

Show a video of any other class pulling that kind of spike damage if you want to be taken seriously

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Engineer

Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

I have a few points / questions / concerns on these engineer notes.

Holographic Shockwave: Is this range reduction only happening in WvW? If it's also affecting PvE, that'll be a huge bummer as this skill is great for CCing lots of mobs to get a breather. At 300 range there won't be much of a reason to ever use it because there are better (and cheaper) forge skills to use at extremely close range, like Corona Burst, Photon Blitz, or even just auto attacks. I'd rather see some sort of counterplay in PvP rather than a range reduction. Or making it no longer guaranteed to crit in PvP.

Impact Savant: Thank you for looking at having this apply to condition damage. Base engineer contains tons of condition damage options which Scrapper seems to throw out the window.

Chemical Field: PLEASE don't replace this with detection pulse, especially if you intend for Scrapper to be able to gain barrier from condition damage!Instead, please consider reworking the Expert Examination (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expert_Examination) trait to grant Detection Pulse as a proc instead, or to have the trait add a Detection Pulse to Function Gyro. That trait is already unused everywhere, and by replacing a tool belt skill with detection pulse, you're basically throwing away one of the Scrapper's tool belt skills in PvE. This is not good.

By reworking the trait instead of replacing Chemical Field, you also allow a PvP scrapper to play anti-stealth without also forcing them into a supportive build. Which is good because Impact Savant requires the scrapper to play offensively to capitalize on it.

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@SloRules.3560 said:In general i like the changes, but CHRONO and necro need some work, which in turn can make revenant to powerful. Guardian is always op, but i have no idea how to nerf it without taking out too much of fun factor of playing group wvw, not just for the guardian but his whole party. Maybe someone else has some better suggestions.

Antitoxin is great change for health of the game and is currently totally broken, it will also change development of meta. Hits scrapper cleanses quite a lot, which makes alternatives a taught.

Engineer

Purge Gyro: since i believe scrapper is still the best cleanser this nerf can happen as far as group is concernedSneak Gyro: Stealth is op, this needs the nerfCorona Burst: No commentHolographic Shockwave: No commentImpact Savant: No commentChemical Field: HELL YES, stealth op, needs counter, this best counter, YES

Guardian

Stand Your Ground: Interesting change, i'm not sure how much it changes in grand scheme of things. I might prefer it goes to 5 targets? Since leftover stability(outside of party) is well random. Also since stabiltiy is a necesity to enjoying WvW fights, i'm not sure.Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: OkTome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: OkTome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: Doesn't change much, since aegis is only for self.Sanctuary: Never used, idk how it's going to effect anything

Mesmer

Illusion of Life: I like the nerf, but don't like the skill overall. Since it's also only real use for mesmer in wvw group content these days, it makes it even worse. But overall it encourages passive play from mesmer, so that it's always in position to cast this (posibly precast as sometimes people die before that) and possibly play mirage (which feels miserable in group fights) for that dodge (and actual distortion) -> no real counterplay. Target is said to have improved, but it also fails because of terrain and stuff. Generaly i'd like this skill to be completely reworked as it's only used in wvw and there most mesmers i know don't really like it (but it is only thing that is really unique and usefull).Chaotic Interruption: No icd? Idk how this is going to pan out, but it can lead to some weird interactions. Weapon skills on mesmer kinda suck for wvw group fights, so idk, we'll see how much this is used, as when you need interupts you generally don't get them.Power Break (Mantra of Pain): Do not like the change as i have experience with arcane thieveryPower Lock (Mantra of Distraction): Do not like the change as i have experience with arcane thievery

Necromancer

I'll address this in general. Might shift necros towards celestial with all the scalling buffs, but not sure. Still only 1 boon corrupt has been taken away, that is simply not enough to change much about scourge or bring alternatives to forefront. But i see that you see the problem with sand savant, so something might come up.

Revenant

Gaze of Darkness: Great, stealt his op, also alternative to scrapper for revealCoalescence of Ruin: Have to test this to see how it's going to effect stuff, but i'm generally for it as it makes pirateship worse.

Warrior

I kinda like these changes, but are they enough to shift from from GS/hammer? You need tactics line (that you acknowlage needs some work) and a mainhand weapon, which is most likely going to be sword. It might work with rework of some tactics traits.

The change is bad though as the boon corrupt is core ability that shouldn't be touched. They should just strip the AOE boon corrupt and barrier gen and or separate them like the way chronomancer has different abilities with different cds and add a bit more of a cd so it can't be spammed or something and maybe lower the aoe's circumference.

core necro shouldn't be touched as its already flimsy as is.

.

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I'd really like to see Sigil of Agility removed in SPvP. Similar to Superior Rune of Surging back when that was approaching ridiculously high usage.

Right now we've reached a point where nearly every build is using it to blitz out certain animations faster than people can react. And clear animations and tells is part of what makes SPvP appealing. Right now in terms of popular builds you're seeing it on:

SpellbreakerSupport FirebrandBlood ScourgeCurses ScourgeReaperProt HolosmithBoonbeastSic Em SoulbeastCore RangerDeadeyeGreatsword and Hammer Core GuardianDragon HunterPower Greatsword Mirage

That's basically a majority of builds you are going to see in Ranked. Like odds are that covers probably 60-70% of what you'll see in platinum games. All running Sigil of Agility. It's too dominant. The only common builds that aren't using it are Rifle Tools Holosmith, Glint+Shiro Herald, and Condi Mirage. It's usage rate is too high now. I think it should be removed in SPvP.

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Thank you so much for taking into consideration some of the things that were said. Some of these revised upcoming changes are definitely better than how they used to be.I've just two suggestions now.

With Stand Your Ground on guardian, a better (and more healthy fix) would be to reduce the target cap back to 5 in WvW. It can be kept the same in PvE.

Please look to change Winds of Disenchantment on warrior too. It is too powerful when it is able to be moved freely and has not much counterplay in its current state, especially if you're a smaller group trying to fight a larger one.

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@"Tulki.1458" said:

Engineer

Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

I have a few points / questions / concerns on these engineer notes.

Holographic Shockwave: Is this range reduction only happening in WvW? If it's also affecting PvE, that'll be a huge bummer as this skill is great for CCing lots of mobs to get a breather. At 300 range there won't be much of a reason to ever use it because there are better (and cheaper) forge skills to use at extremely close range, like Corona Burst, Photon Blitz, or even just auto attacks. I'd rather see some sort of counterplay in PvP rather than a range reduction. Or making it no longer guaranteed to crit in PvP.

Impact Savant: Thank you for looking at having this apply to condition damage. Base engineer contains tons of condition damage options which Scrapper seems to throw out the window.

Chemical Field:
PLEASE
don't replace this with detection pulse, especially if you intend for Scrapper to be able to gain barrier from condition damage!Instead, please consider reworking the
Expert Examination
(
) trait to grant Detection Pulse as a proc instead, or to have the trait add a Detection Pulse to Function Gyro. That trait is already unused everywhere, and by replacing a tool belt skill with detection pulse, you're basically throwing away one of the Scrapper's tool belt skills in PvE. This is not good.

By reworking the trait instead of replacing Chemical Field, you also allow a PvP scrapper to play anti-stealth without also forcing them into a supportive build. Which is good because Impact Savant requires the scrapper to play offensively to capitalize on it.

No reason to use a 300 ranged aoe knockdown?

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

Warrior

  • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
  • Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.
  • Sight Beyond Sight: Increase the radius of this ability to reveal hidden enemies up to 600 range away.
  • Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.Sincerely,~Irenio

Charge - changes should be interesting to see in play, I asume this means Cripple Imobo and Chill will all be removed on 1 blow. Would it be more suited to give charge superspeed for 2-3s then convert to swiftness for 15s? Would give the skill an AOE poke into the front lines, or a quick skill for a retreat. Add superspeed for 2-3s onto this skill and that should be fine.

Call to Arms - Changes are looking better than what we had before, but can this skill do more? If Barrier isnt suited to the warrior class, make it an AOE stun break on a horn blow, this would give the skills a tactical use for play, giving the warrior the abuility to save someones life. Which in turn will make the battle support warhorn quite fun to play.

Sight Beyond Sight- I'm still not seeing a single reason to take this skill, Maybe add an effect like Cause blindness to those revealed forseeing their next strike. ( fits the name, you have sight beyond sight in seeing their next move ).... But is that enough to even make it worth picking?

Quick Breathing - If these changes are going to happen, the name needs to change. Trait effects - For Charge, Id be happy with either Retaliation, Stability or Fury, either boon fits the skill. Resistance i'm fine with for Call to Arms, gives play into a skill to help with condies rather than just utilities.Flurry - Not listed. Warrior Sword Burst skill, this seriously needs to change. its a death trap to use. no defence when using, its static and low damage for a burst. Please can we have an overhaul on the sword F1 Burst. Many suggestions have been made for it, pick one and make it happen, any will be better than what we have currently.

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I am looking at this from an sPvP perspective (I almost do not play WvW) and I cannot wait to see some of those changes there too!Also I did not expect the second balance thread and a teasing for some changes.I like the current ranger sword but I am curious about the rework.

engi : nerf to holo. Nice.guardian : Fb needed some nerf. It will still be strong but less aegis spam is a good direction.mesmer : Sadly mantra are still is instant cast but the LoS is really needed.necro : I am curious if this makes blood sage stronger or weaker but this is better than the previous balance suggestions.ranger : I played the slb sniper after the unblockable removal. I was killing people in WvW but I was useless in sPvP. I think this is because people are really slow to react in WvW and those I fought had little to no defense. I hope it does not affect sPvP.revenant : no opinion.warrior : since you advertise Tactic line change I am curious to see where you are going.

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@santenal.1054 said:When the patch hits, I hope that the amount of nerfs each class gets is gonna be a bit more fair.

as your sig says that you are a holo roamer in wvw.for real - its a shame that holo could survive for such a long time ... when you want to bring holo from his S class to a good A class you have to nerf:

  • Corona burst
  • holo shockwave
  • heat therapy
  • remove perma vigor
  • reduce regen
  • reduce might gain
  • remove perma protection

all together or better - give holo elite spec the same down side like scrapper ( minus 3000 health )

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@bluberblasen.9684 said:

@santenal.1054 said:When the patch hits, I hope that the amount of nerfs each class gets is gonna be a bit more fair.

as your sig says that you are a holo roamer in wvw.for real - its a shame that holo could survive for such a long time ... when you want to bring holo from his S class to a good A class you have to nerf:
  • Corona burst
  • holo shockwave
  • heat therapy
  • remove perma vigor
  • reduce regen
  • reduce might gain
  • remove perma protection

all together or better - give holo elite spec the same down side like scrapper ( minus 3000 health )

Holo is not the only spec with overperforming roaming builds that could use some nerfs. You disagree ?

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@santenal.1054 said:

@santenal.1054 said:When the patch hits, I hope that the amount of nerfs each class gets is gonna be a bit more fair.

as your sig says that you are a holo roamer in wvw.for real - its a shame that holo could survive for such a long time ... when you want to bring holo from his S class to a good A class you have to nerf:
  • Corona burst
  • holo shockwave
  • heat therapy
  • remove perma vigor
  • reduce regen
  • reduce might gain
  • remove perma protection

all together or better - give holo elite spec the same down side like scrapper ( minus 3000 health )

Holo is not the only spec with overperforming roaming builds that could use some nerfs. You disagree ?

no ;)i agree with you !

on S tier level at current balance ( small scale )

holo, condi dead eye, the new condi weaver, druid immortal condi build, the very rare renegade condi build ( saw it only 1 time ),

on S - A tierspellbreaker and core warrior, core thief, cele weaver, power mirage, scourge , power herald, condi mirage (core cele dual dagger ele) reaper ( good played )

A tierberzerker, long bow ranger, chrono, scrapper, tempest, dare devil, core mesmer

b tierreaper ( bad played ), core necro, core ranger, core engi, core ele ( bad played )

c tiercore revenant,

  • a big problem is stealth as game mechanic

edit:added mirageedit 2:added power heraldedit 3:added weaver

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