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Redesigning Tactics Specialization: A Holistic Approach to Support Warrior (Longbow/Warhorn/Shouts)


Virtuality.8351

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Posted

@RedShark.9548 said:theres so many thing wrong with many of those traits in my opinion.i dont even know where to start.i dont like it one bit.

ill just throw a few in, thats by far not all, just what i think are the worst things.

first:concentration and other boon prolonging effects are completely wasted on warrior imo. warrior doesnt give out many boons, and the boons they dish out are already long enough and are more likely to get ripped than to run out of time.

It was aimed to be address to have all Shouts grants boon to allies by default. Would you think it is still insufficient?

ssecond:all the traits that work out of combat or upon entering combat are literal wasted spots for warrior, since you are melee and have adrenalin system (that depletes when ooc) you always want to stick in combat and dont actually want to get ooc. also, how are you giving out might while out of combat ? for great justice ? thats 24 stacks of might out of combat, okey, but you lose all the other effects of it (healing out of combat, with trooper rune condi remove out of combat? adrenalin gain out of combat? yikes)there is a reason why nobody that knows warrior is playing brave stride, because its actual dogkitten.

Doing something about it soon. Also, in my proposal I did provided a mechanic for the sharing effect to refresh during combat.

third:leg specialist used to be good in wvw, because it had no internal cd and hammershock immobalized 5 ppl on range, which was great, now it immobilizes one person for 1 second (lol) and you go ahead and make it a grandmaster ? oh boi i would never ever take that.

Agreed that the cripple-immobilize effect is under the line. I'll do something on that in my next modification.

Also, would you also comment on Rupturing Smash alternating with Arc Divider?

Posted

The most important thing in a Tactics rework is to get rid of the "while reviving" skills - or at least keep it to 1 optional choice. If it's kept, an acceleration of the revival should be part of the effect. Ok, Inspiring Presence has to go, too!I like a good deal of your suggestions. I definitely like having a shout with a Taunt effect. Some are over-cooked, tho. I think Fire For Effect is a little too strong. And "Shrug It Off" should not grant Resistance. I'd also stay away from Retaliation effects (that's the realm of the Guardian).
For ideas, I'd recommend taking Vengeful Return from the Discipline line and make it a minor trait under Tactics. It seems like a better home. I'd move Doubled Standards down to the adept slot in its place.

Posted

@"perko.8309" said:The most important thing in a Tactics rework is to get rid of the "while reviving" skills - or at least keep it to 1 optional choice. If it's kept, an acceleration of the revival should be part of the effect. Ok, Inspiring Presence has to go, too!I like a good deal of your suggestions. I definitely like having a shout with a Taunt effect. Some are over-cooked, tho. I think Fire For Effect is a little too strong. And "Shrug It Off" should not grant Resistance. I'd also stay away from Retaliation effects (that's the realm of the Guardian).

For ideas, I'd recommend taking Vengeful Return from the Discipline line and make it a minor trait under Tactics. It seems like a better home. I'd move Doubled Standards down to the adept slot in its place.

I admit, that I intentionally doubled up on Longbow there, in the hope that people will actually pick it up and put it to test. As for 'Shake It Off!', it was my objective to make each of the Shout skills both provide a Boon to allies and inflict at lease some effect on enemies, and Resistance was the best solution I could reach. Suggestions for an alternative are welcome of course!

Also, it was intentional to narrow the range of my proposal and not to touch other specializations, as a complete redesign of the Tactic trait line already seems to some radical. Still, an interesting recommendation.

And thanks for showing your appreciation!

@Lan Deathrider.5910 @cryorion.9532 @RiyazGuerra.9203 @Lighter.5631 @otto.5684 @DanAlcedo.3281 @RedShark.9548

In case you were still interested in the proposal, I have changed a few things according to your feed back. Not all suggestions could be integrated obviously, but at least this is my attempt. Also, it was intended not to touch stuffs of or associated with other specialization, so sorry for not taking the ideas on Fast hand and Vengeful Return.

A few key notes:

Minor traits have been redesigned.

Again inspired by functions provided by relevant features (Revealed by 'On My Mark!'), and real world military tactics (for cavalry or other light and mobile units primary), the Adept Minor has become Vanguard:

  • Adept, minor: Vanguard — Striking an invisible enemy reveals enemies around you. (Revealed for 3 s with CD 45 s within a radius of 600. If multiple enemies are hit by a single strike, they all get revealed. The radius limit is meant to prevent people from exploiting the range of Longbow or Rifle and spam AoE around.)

With the same logic, the Grandmaster Minor has become Rearguard. The trait will retain the Revival aspect of Tactics.

  • Gradmaster, minor: Rearguard — Reduce incoming damage while reviving. Heal and grant might to nearby allies when you rally or successfully revive someone. (Previously Determined Revival and Reviver's Might mergerd together.)

Element of Surprise has been through rework as well and promoted to the Master Tier. It will retain the empowering feature of Tactics.

  • Master, minor: — Element of Surprise — Grant Might to allies when you enter combat. (6 stacks for 6 s; numbers of allies: 5). Attacking enemies from its flank or behind grants might to your allies. (1 stacks for 4 s with no ICD; numbers of allies: 5) (Edit: Sep. 10th, based on feedback by @RedShark.9548)

As always, all numbers here are just placeholders to give a general picture of how it might be like. While they are of course open to discussion, please also let me know how you think about the ideas proposed here.

Major traits have been modified as well.

Provocative Skirmishers no longer changes Fear you deal into Taunt. An Elite Shout skill is proposed to make up the lack of Taunt; we will get to that later. Both Feared and Taunted enemies now receive Vulnerabilities.

  • Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Fear you deal becomes Taunt. Enemies feared or taunted by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 s over time. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.) (Edited on Sep. 11 based on the feedback by @RiyazGuerra.9203)

Line of Departure is now unconditional. It will retain the feature provided by Phalanx Strength, which is agreed to be under-powered at this moment and suitable for Adept tier.

  • Adept: Line of Departure — When you grant yourself might while out of combat, grant it to nearby allies as well. The sharing effect is again available (refreshed) for 5 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike) (Edited Sep. 9th for better clarity)

Leg Specialist has been buffed so that it may deserve its place among other Grandmaster Majors.

  • Grandmaster: Leg Specialist — Immobilize a target when you cripple them with a skill. Targets you crippled are also immobilized (1 s with 5 s ICD; the recharge is set on each individual target that this trait triggers on, as of Thief's Lotus Poison.) Immobilization you cause lasts longer (50%).

Quick Breathing lost its ability to grant adrenaline upon affecting allies, as the synergy between additional boons it grants (Stability, instead of Fury in the developers' announcement, and Resistance) and the increased number of targets is already pretty strong.

  • Adept: Quick Breathing — Warhorn skills have an increased number of targets, grant an additional boon. Grant +120 Concentration. (As announced.) Grant 3 stacks of Stability for 5 s with Charge and Resistance for 3 s with Call to Arm.

Shrug It Off has been buffed so that it may deserve its place in the Master tier.

  • Master: Shrug It Off — Use "Shake It Off!" automatically when you have a number of conditions on you. (Increase conditions cleased to 2; grant Resistance for 2 s.)

Vigorous Shout has been renamed as Resounding Command. Some buffs have been added at the cost of losing cooldown reduction.

  • Grandmaster: Resounding Command Vigorous Shouts — Shouts affect more allies (10), heal them (Skill Coefficient of Healing Power raised from 1.2 to 1.5) and grant adrenaline based on the number of allies affected ( point of Adrenaline is granted per ally. Edited on Sep 8th, proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in their comment below). Shouts recharge faster, and grant Vigor to allies. (Edited on Sep. 9)

In my previous comments I have explained that it was intentional not to buff the base Healing value, but rather, to buff the Skill Coefficient of Healing Power instead, so that Healing Power could actually be taken, and that you do not see glass cannons running around spike healing allies for several thousands.

Shout skills have gone through some rework. All shout skills now grant allies a buff and inflict foes with debuff, to differentiate themselves from their Guardian counterparts. (NOTE: edited again after Lan's feedback; see below)

  • 'To the Limit!' — The skill now grants Vigor (8 s) to allies and inflict Slow (1 s) to your enemies.
  • 'Fear Me!' — The base CD is reduced to 30 s. Grant Retaliation Quickness for 6 s to allies. (Edited on Sep. 9th based on feedback by @Lan Deathrider.5910)* 'On My Mark!' — The skill becomes an AoE of 180 radius around your selected target. (If no target is selected the skill cannot be deployed.) In addition to its previous effect, grant ~~Quickness Fury for 3 8 s 'On My Mark!' and 2 6 s for Lesser 'On My Mark!'. (Edit on Sep. 8th: Alternatively, as @RiyazGuerra.9203 suggested in their comment, the skill could alternatively apply Rend instead.)~~
  • 'On My Mark!' — The skill becomes an AoE of 180 radius around your selected target. (If no target is selected the skill cannot be deployed.) In addition to its previous effect, grant Quickness 2 stacks Stability for 3 5 s 'On My Mark!' and 1 stack of Stability 2 5 s for Lesser 'On My Mark!'. (Edit on Sep. 8th: Alternatively, as @RiyazGuerra.9203 suggested in their comment, the skill could alternatively apply Rend instead.)
  • 'Shake/Shrug It Off!' — In addition to their previous effect, grant Resistance for 2 3 s and 1 2 s respectively. Increase conditions cleansed to 3 and 2 respectively.~~* 'For Great Justice!' — This skill no longer grants Fury. Instead, it applies Weakness (6 s) to your enemies. ~~
  • 'For Great Justice!' — This skill no longer grants Fury. In addition to its previous efefct, apply Weakness (6 s) to your enemies.

A new Shout skill is added to the Elite catergory:* 'Dare you not!' — Grant Retaliation (6 s) to allies. Enemies around you (600) is Taunted (3 s) and Confused (5 stacks for 5 s). (CD: 20 s)

  • 'Dare you not!' — Grant Retaliation (6 s) and Alacrity (3 s) to allies. Enemies around you (600) is Taunted (3 s) and Confused (5 stacks for 5 s). (CD: 30 s)

The description of Warhorn skills have been clarified. No substantiate change is made.

Let me know what you think about it :D

Posted

My commentary to the above changes:

Keep Fury on FGJ, this was the reason we all suggested to the devs to swap the Fury on quickbreathing for another boon. But, if you are putting Fury on OMM (which I did recommend, but was in addition to that on FGJ not instead, and only when traited), then replacing Fury on FGJ with some other boon is not out of hand. Retaliation would be appropriate for something called "For Great Justice" would it not?

Also your Element of Surprise coupled with Line of Departure (if it is just Phalanx Strength then keep the old name) on a GS warrior would end up giving the party 2 might per target per GS hit. I do not know if that was what you were going for, but it might (heh pun heh) be too much might. Not that I have negative feelings about that, but consider it from the dev point of view.

I wish we had an elite shout, and 'Dare You Not' sounds interesting. Since Taunt forces someone to run towards the target if they are using a melee weapon, then would not torment also be a useful condition for such an elite? I am suggesting this to provide a more impetus to use this versus melee who are not within 600 to still take some condi damage.

"Dare You Not!" Taunt foes within 600 for 3s. Confuse (5 stacks) and Torment (5 stacks) foes within 600 for 5s. Grant allies in range 6s of retaliation. No cast. 25s CD.

Traited CD would be 20s, which is plenty for this kind of skill. A 20s CD as you suggested would end up as a 16s CD traited, which is too low for an elite skill.

Posted

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:My commentary to the above changes:

Keep Fury on FGJ, this was the reason we all suggested to the devs to swap the Fury on quickbreathing for another boon. But, if you are putting Fury on OMM (which I did recommend, but was in addition to that on FGJ not instead, and only when traited), then replacing Fury on FGJ with some other boon is not out of hand. Retaliation would be appropriate for something called "For Great Justice" would it not?

Makes sense. I think I'll also swap for Alacrity for 3 s on the elite Shout skill and a slight bit of Stability on OOM instead, so that each Shout provides something unique to others.

Edit: or maybe not to add Retaliation on FGJ and to leave Retaliation to the elite skill.

Also your Element of Surprise coupled with Line of Departure (if it is just Phalanx Strength then keep the old name) on a GS warrior would end up giving the party 2 might per target per GS hit. I do not know if that was what you were going for, but it might (heh pun heh) be too much might. Not that I have negative feelings about that, but consider it from the dev point of view.

Ta-dum-tss.

The GS part was indeed not taken into consideration. Although I think it could be balanced out with the already short duration on Might, or could it not?

I wish we had an elite shout, and 'Dare You Not' sounds interesting. Since Taunt forces someone to run towards the target if they are using a melee weapon, then would not torment also be a useful condition for such an elite? I am suggesting this to provide a more impetus to use this versus melee who are not within 600 to still take some condi damage."Dare You Not!" Taunt foes within 600 for 3s. Confuse (5 stacks) and Torment (5 stacks) foes within 600 for 5s. Grant allies in range 6s of retaliation. No cast. 25s CD.

Traited CD would be 20s, which is plenty for this kind of skill. A 20s CD as you suggested would end up as a 16s CD traited, which is too low for an elite skill.

To be honest, while it functionally serves the purpose well, I just could not find it fitting thematically in a taunt. I also tried to limit the effects Shouts inflicts on enemies to non damage effects. The reason Confusion was added at all was so that even when affected enemies were using range weapons, they'd be meaningfully affected. I'll see if I can find a better solution here.

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