Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 13th 2019

[SkyShroud.2865]

• Scourge: For a long time, Scourge has been a strong elite specialization on the basis of its area coverage. With some of these changes we're looking to re-focus their gameplay around their unique elite spec mechanic, shades. These changes also open up space for improvements to the Scourge's kit in the future as the conversation has been dominated by Scourge's coverage.
• Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.
• Manifest Sand Shade: The duration of sand shades in WvW & PvP has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.
• Sand Savant: Increase the number of targets sand shade affect from 2 to 5, so that when traited you either affect up to 10 targets around you or have a single shade which affects up to 10 targets rather than the current incarnation where you've got a shade that affects 5 targets and you affect 5 targets near you.
• Inspiring Reinforcement: Increased pulsing stability duration from 1.5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased initial stability duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased the speed at which the road is built by 100%. Increased road length from 600 to 900.

Wow, hahahah. Wow!I am really speechless. Lol....just wow! Woot!Guess what is the new meta? Pirateship meta! Pew pew pew!

2 Herald, 2 Scourge, 1 Suppot!2 Herald to spam road for stabs and then pew pew pew for dps2 Scourge to pew pew pew 10 target shade.1 Support to heal.

Awesome pirateshipWay easier to blob people down now. Good job anet.Lucky I am gonna play AAU at end of the month instead dealing with your nonsense balance.

[otto.5684]

Engi:Good changes. Only 2 years late.

Guardian:The changes primarily targets dps FB sustain. Support almost no changes. Very bad.Sanctuary changes are useless. It blocks 10, 20, a million, the skill itself remain useless.

Mesmer:I do think any of these changes are meaningful in anyway to even discuss. Zero impact on performance in any game mode.

Rev:How many times do we need to make changes to Jailis? The change to Inspiring Reinforcement is good, but it is not going to make Jailis usable. Why not figure out what the issues are and fix them all at once, instead of these incremental, mostly useless, changes? For hammer, this change is good for WvW, semi good for sPvP and pretty terrible for PvE.

Warrior:Without seeing changes (if any) to tactics, these changes will not make warhorn viable.

Without seeing the reminder of the changes, these changes are... tiny and nearly useless.

[mixxed.5862]

While I think the concept behind the shade rework is fine, it won't have the positive effect you wish for. Basically it will nerf Scourge slightly in PvE, hit it very hard in PvP and even buff it in WvW while promoting a ranged meta.

It will go counter to all your objectives!

Don't increase the target caps in WvW (only) and you have a harsh enough nerf that could finally bring some overdue change to the WvW meta!

Later on you can rebalance both the CD and duration of shades to buff the spec until it is in a good place in every game mode. You'll end up with a Scourge design that is harder to play and more fair to play against.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think 10 man target skills are fine as long as the cd is high, and not overloaded with a ton of effects. I appreciate the attempt to make scourge work, but to me it seems like its a counter to firebrand spam. this creates an arms race, and the only people that lose are us.

[RisenHowl.2419]

So glass scourge bomb is going from:

(Range-current)1.5-2k per f1-4, 10k f5, per 5 targets= 16-20k each, 80-100k total5x 1 corrupt= 5 corrupts5x 1s fear2.5k barrier per 5 allies= 12.5k barrier2 condi cleanse and 2 might per 5 allies= 10 cleanses and might

(Melee-current)1.5-2k per f1-4, 10k f5, per 10 target= 16-20k each, 160-200k total10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts10x 1s fear2.5k barrier per 10 allies= 25k barrier2 condi cleanse and 2 might per 10 allies=20 cleanses and might

To:

(Range-new)1.5-2k per f1-4, 8k f5, per 10 targets= 14k-16k each, 140k-160k total (160% current)10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts (200% current)10x 1s fear (200% current)

OR

(Melee-new)1.5-2k per f1-4, 8k f5, per 10 targets= 14k-16k each, 140k-160k total (80% current)10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts (100% current)10x 1s fear (100% current)1.75k barrier per 10 allies= 17.5k barrier (70% current)2 condi cleanses and 2 might per 10 allies= 20 cleanses and might (100% current)

.....Who on earth thought that was what the players wanted when we asked for sand savant nerfs? Sand savant does too much because it is 10 target. The solution to that is not 'make it vastly easier to land 10 target hits'.

Sure, the melee bomb from scourge is now 20-30% less effective than it was but you made it significantly easier to do. At the tradeoff of making it 60-100% more effective at range? This change just forces groups to never enter >900 range, because if you do you instantly lose. Way to shake it up!

As for having to choose whether to bomb at range or in melee, instead every party will have 2 scourges. 1 that bombs at range and 1 that saves the bomb for a melee push/2nd range bomb. And they'll be even stronger bombs than they were since now you only need half as many scourges to bomb in the same place, making it easier to concentrate a spike.

[Tinnel.4369]

"Keep playing high mobility ranged pick classes."

Noted, thanks!

[Wraistlin.6072]

@"Megs.2986" said:While I know in the past the devs have wanted to stay away from making skills unique per gamemode, I do believe that having 10-man skills is not a good idea in WvW, especially when it is only some skills that work this way.

While I understand the need for 10 man skills in PvE, 10 man skills in WvW create a lot of unneeded boons/damage/healing when most groups run in parties of five. (Also creating issues between party and squad composition such as 10 man stab but only 5 man cleanses)

Part of the reason many WvWers love the gamemode so much is the synergy needed between classes to get things right when zerging. Many of us miss blasting fire and water fields, believe it or not! I believe removing 10 man skills will help bring back the synergy between classes that many of us miss so deeply!

I just wanted to comment that getting away from the fields has hurt the "uniqueness" of the game overall. Really wish they would go back to a lot of the boons having to be combo'd in some regard. Especially the power creep of 25 might stacking that everyone can seem to do solo now. Make GW2 great again, lets get back to combo fields!

[DKRathalos.9625]

@Shiren.9532 said:Can you at least tell us what your vision is for ranger in WvW? We've had a WvW meta that excluded rangers from organised groups for as long as there was a meta (not even druid could break in compared to tempests and now firebrands). What design space do you think rangers are supposed to fill in organized WvW?

I think they are happy with ranger being Pew Pew Ranger on wvw area instead of giving them option for group play.

[Lazze.9870]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.

[Lazze.9870]

@Threather.9354 said:Lot of suggestions here about ranger in WvW:

The fundamental issue is that ranger has no good weapons for Zerg fights

Which is why a rework to the pathetic staff (which only has - or had, pre-nerf - one good skill plus a wall that has some potential) should be one of the top priorities if they ever take a look at druid and ways to push it closer to some kind of meta..

[praqtos.9035]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

[Lily.1935]

The changes to Scourge are misguided at best and negligent at worst.

Sand Savant was always the issue with its massive radius and target cap. The damage was never the issue, the shades themselves were never the issue, the aoe bubble around yourself was never the issue, it was always just sand Savant. As a trait this should never have been a DPS trait, it should have removed DPS potential from the scourge not increased how many could be struck. Dhuumfire was nerfed for Sand Savant's sins, thinking that its nerf would solve the issues. It didn't, the scourge players moved to power and you hurt PvE in the process. You removed Unending Corruption from the game because of Sand Savant's sins and yet the issue persists. Now you're changing up the scourge again, stripping much of our defenses in PvE, PvP and WvW again for Sand Savant's sins and Sand Savant will still dominate in WvW.

When will it be clear that Sand Savant was always the problem? When their is nothing left of the scourge and the elite spec needs to go through an emergency rework because its just been butchered too much?

[Anchoku.8142]

It looks to me like Scourges will have to decide if they want to share barriers with allies or corrupt enemies but doing both will be both risky and less efficient. Offense-type Scourge will also be glassier and will not be able to support nearby allies at the same time.

I cannot fault Arenanet's approach on this. They clearly wanted to keep Scourge as a counter to boon-spam but also wanted support-Scourge to be legitimate, too, and found a way to better separate the builds. No matter what players do, Scourge will be nerfed in one aspect or another.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

Please stop ranting because you never learned about parabolas in school.

[Smoosh.2718]

Will we be seeing any changes to the Warriors Kill shot?A change to no longer make this skill static and crouched down, since this makes the shot clip into the ground and become obstructed by a stump 20cm high.

Another change that might be worth making to rifle is have the trait increase the projectile velocity. It is a rifle not a rock lobber, the weapon struggles to hit anyone running sideways at max range to mid range.

An Insight to what tactics changes will be coming would be ideal, to see how the warhorn ties in with that trait line.

Sight Beyond Sight will always be a wasted skill as it stands. Provide it with blind immunity or superspeed upon revealing a hidden foe.

Daggers, would a cooldown reduction trait on sun and moon be too much? Just feels odd having a weapon with no cooldown reductions. Torch got one, so why can't the dagger?

[MethaneGas.8357]

-Copy-pasted stuff from the Necro forums-

I usually don't cry wolf about changes, but this time, I think these changes will absolutely gut Scourge in PvP, especially the fact that shroud skills won't affect the area around you if you have a shade summoned. For example, if you drop your shades far away from you, the enemy can immediately roll over you because you won't have cleanse from F2, won't have barrier from F3, won't be able to fear melee attackers with F4, won't be able to pressure melee attackers with F5..... in other words, you'll be a defenseless bag of bones.I guess you COULD drop a shade on top of yourself so you have one in the distance and one on melee, but that's still ridiculous and clunky. You can't possibly kite around a shade and survive. You can't afford to sit still in PvP - you gotta move and kite as a Necro. It's literally the only way to survive. And kiting is impossible if you have to stay on top of your shades. So you have two options - kite away from your shades but sacrifice F2,F3,F4,F5, OR stay on top of your shade like a sitting duck but keep F2,F3,F4,F5.On the other hand, if you take Sand Savant so you got a nice, big shade to kite around, you're also screwed because you have only one shade. As soon as you drop it far away from you, you're screwed because you can't have a second shade to protect you in melee. So you have to re-cast it on top of yourself (assuming you don't get instakilled before then), but the cooldown is so long that eventually you won't be able to keep re-positioning your shade to keep up with your kitting. Eh..... I can't see a way around this to make it manageable without having a "remove all shades" button.

The barrier reduction is also ridiculous. The whole thing about scourge is to have barrier instead of deathshroud/reaper shroud. Now that barrier will be even smaller, and this change will mostly affect Curses Scourge, which is already harder and more squishy than Blood Scourge!!!I think a good way to re-work this is to reduce the amount of barrier that allies get while not changing the barrier that the Necro gets (so the Necro keeps its defensive capabilities but has reduced support?)

The only upside is - this might make core Necro <3 or Reaper a better option in PvP because the alternative would be been gutted like a piglet. So I guess it's not all bad, just the fact that scourge will suck if this goes through.

TL:DR: ugly cry

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Grimjack.8130 said:You're trying to change WvW gameplay with the Shades, but this change will only lead to stronger Scourges, the AOE around the Scourge didn't do too much in WvW, however this will completely delete Scourge from PvP no questions asked.

You did nothing you intended to with these Scourge changes, do not release these changes with how they are now.

I do think the same here. With these scourge changes I feel like we are getting a hard pirate ship meta back for wvw.

Which is actually better than the old melee train meta. Remember, players started leaving in masses before HoT was even released when the melee train was the dominant play style. Reason at that time was, the meta was stale. At least now with a pirate ship meta, groups have to take out the worst offenders before running in and spamming #1.

If Anet ever wanted to kill WvW off, all they'd need to do is reintroduce the warrior/guardian dominant meta of leap in and spam 1. The population would pretty much vanish overnight due to the complete alienation of classes (which was the exact problem with the melee train to begin with).

[JTGuevara.9018]

Of COURSE you buff scourge...this will work WONDERS in wvw! Increasing the targets for shades? Seriously?! ...Well...I'm glad I've made the choice to leave pvp in this game far behind.

[Lily.1935]

Scourge is going to be spicy in wvw. Good luck, is all I have to say. Maybe spectral walk, sand swell and flesh wurm will get nerfed now for Sand Savant's sins. Why not port into a group of enemies with your scourge army, nuke them then port back and ruin their lives with the shades after the fact. Sounds nothing like it was before... excuse my sarcasm. I just don't see how this incentivize use of other traits aside from sand Savant.

I honestly believe that if Sand Savant didn't exist, wvw would be fine with the scourge's current design. It might even be able to be buffed

[Enduronex.4865]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:Hey again all,

Thanks for the feedback on the proposed Balance Changes over the last three weeks - as a result several notes have been altered and re-visited.This post isn't a request for more feedback, but a heads-up that we're going to be getting the changes tested and vetted internally while we get stuff ready.

It has been excellent to see that many of the conclusions we have reached internally are the same ones that you're having regarding the proposed changes. It has also been great to see your counterpoints and suggestions to some of the changes we proposed, as they've raised discussions on what the best course of action may be. I look forward to getting your feedback for the next set of potential changes once we’ve released the results from this set and others not discussed here.

Below are the current changes that we're looking at from the proposed set:

Items

• Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer

• Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 60 seconds in WvW.
• Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
• Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
• Impact Savant: Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180. Unfortunately it doesn't look likely we'll be able to get this trait to work with conditions for the next balance update, but we'll keep investigating other options.
• Detection Pulse: This skill returns as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro, replacing Chemical Field. Its radius is reduced from 1200 to 900 and its targeting is improved for large group situations so it can't fail where there are many nearby enemies and stealthed foes are slightly further away.

Guardian

• Stand Your Ground: Reduce the stacks of stability granted by this ability from 5 to 3 in WvW.
• Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants retaliation.
• Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.
• Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.
• Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.

Mesmer

• Illusion of Life: Reduce the invulnerability period on revived allies from 5s to 1s. Improve the smart targeting on this skill so it can't fail in big group situations where there is someone downed and lots of people near them.
• Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities that is already on cooldown by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.
• Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.
• Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

Necromancer

• Scourge: For a long time, Scourge has been a strong elite specialization on the basis of its area coverage. With some of these changes we're looking to re-focus their gameplay around their unique elite spec mechanic, shades. These changes also open up space for improvements to the Scourge's kit in the future as the conversation has been dominated by Scourge's coverage.
• Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.
• Manifest Sand Shade: The duration of sand shades in WvW & PvP has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.
• Sand Savant: Increase the number of targets sand shade affect from 2 to 5, so that when traited you either affect up to 10 targets around you or have a single shade which affects up to 10 targets rather than the current incarnation where you've got a shade that affects 5 targets and you affect 5 targets near you.
• Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
• Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
• Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
• Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
• Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
• Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

Ranger

• Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.

Revenant

• Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.
• Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.
• Inspiring Reinforcement: Increased pulsing stability duration from 1.5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased initial stability duration from 2 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased the speed at which the road is built by 100%. Increased road length from 600 to 900.

Thief

• Deadly Ambition: Reduce the poison inflicted by this trait from 2 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 5 seconds in PvP & WvW.

Warrior

• Charge: This skill only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in PvE and PvP and 10% in WvW in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.
• Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.
• Sight Beyond Sight: Increase the radius of this ability to reveal hidden enemies up to 600 range away.
• Quick Breathing: Thinking of re-working it to better pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

---

Thanks again all for constructively sharing your feedback, thoughts, concerns and expectations.

Sincerely,~Irenio

This is definitely a better balance change than in the past, although I would've kept the 600 range of Holographic Shockwave and instead reduced the skill's effectiveness by turning it into a single blast that the Aegis boon could actually block and that individuals could actually dodge one instance of successfully (instead of having to dodge several doughnuts of the same CC attack). I am happy that Scrappers will not lose 3000 base HP anymore.I am, however, disappointed that Coolant Blast was not buffed. It's still not advantageous in any game mode vs. any of the other healing skills (Healing Turret, A.E.D., Elixir H, even Med Kit).EDIT: I am still waiting for a rework of Photonic Blasting Module. It's a useless trait.

I am happy about the Necromancer nerfs.

Thief poison nerf was definitely needed, good job.

I'm still concerned that Magebane Tether isn't nerfed; that duration makes a lot of invulnerability skills moot (and given the boon-stealing abilities of Spellbreakers, stability isn't usually the answer, either).

[RisenHowl.2419]

For those of you who are slow thinkers: this is a straight buff for scourge in wvw. Instead of using f3 after f1, you now just cast it before f1 to apply 10 target barrier in an aoe around you before placing your new 10 target shade. Burst combo went from f1, f5, f2, f3, f4 to f3, f1 ,f5, f2, f4. That's it.

You even play the exact same way. The only tradeoff is you don't cleanse 1 condition from 5 people around you. In exchange you now do 50% more damage. The balance team heard that you're upset and decided spitting in your face was the correct course of action.

[Holland.9351]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:Ranger

• Long Range Shot: Reduce the damage range of this skill from 0.7-0.9 to 0.6-0.8 in WvW only.

If damage output is the problem, it's probably because soulbeast has three +% damage traits in its spec, two of which are forced on every soulbeast. +7%, +5% and +10%. That's potentially 22% more damage output than rangers without soulbeast and you also have to add a ferocious pet on top of it (+200 power +100 ferocity).

If you're going to make all longbow rangers worse, even those who don't use soulbeast, maybe you could make Hunter's Shot Unblockable as compromise. This would also fix the 'bug' where a reflected shot would stealth the opponent.

[Virdo.1540]

Could u maybe look into making ventari a better healer? Maybe at least making the Tablet-Slide a tiny 10-man healing c:

[nthmetal.9652]

Did I see that right and understand the discussion correct: The class that currently creates the most area denial through long-lasting AoE effects now gets even longer AoE effects, which in top of that affect more people when used at range?That's surely gonna shake up the WvW meta and we'll see whole new zerg compositions, now.