Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 13th 2019

[Me Games Ma.8426]

Hey Irenio,I do not believe that Chaotic interruption is the thing that makes mirage so strong. It is mirage itself. Looking at the history of meta builds with mirage there have been a few times where the "main trait" has been nerfed. Elusive Mind was nerfed and mirages went to play Infinite Horizon.Bountiful Disillusionment was nerfed and Mirages went with chaotic interruption instead. I do not think that these traits were problematic. I believe that mirage is.Nerfing chaotic interruption will not only hurt mirage but also other mesmer builds in which this trait has been perfectly fine for years.I am strongly against nerfing core mechanics/traits because an elite spec is too strong with them. This only results in less build diversity over the rest of the profession.E.g. I habe been using Chaotic interruption on chronomancer builds for years. Noone has ever cared that I did. The fact that you are going to rework it will completely destroy my build and leave me with no real interrupt build for roaming in WvW (aside from sword mirage)

I just don't believe it is fair to kill off build diversity because one specific build is strong with this trait. Thanks for reading.

TL;DR. Chaotic Interruption has been fine for years. Nerf mirage instead of killing bade mesmer's toys.

[Serenity.6304]

@"MethaneGas.8357" said:-Copy-pasted stuff from the Necro forums-

I usually don't cry wolf about changes, but this time, I think these changes will absolutely gut Scourge in PvP, especially the fact that shroud skills won't affect the area around you if you have a shade summoned. For example, if you drop your shades far away from you, the enemy can immediately roll over you because you won't have cleanse from F2, won't have barrier from F3, won't be able to fear melee attackers with F4, won't be able to pressure melee attackers with F5..... in other words, you'll be a defenseless bag of bones.I guess you COULD drop a shade on top of yourself so you have one in the distance and one on melee, but that's still ridiculous and clunky. You can't possibly kite around a shade and survive. You can't afford to sit still in PvP - you gotta move and kite as a Necro. It's literally the only way to survive. And kiting is impossible if you have to stay on top of your shades. So you have two options - kite away from your shades but sacrifice F2,F3,F4,F5, OR stay on top of your shade like a sitting duck but keep F2,F3,F4,F5.On the other hand, if you take Sand Savant so you got a nice, big shade to kite around, you're also screwed because you have only one shade. As soon as you drop it far away from you, you're screwed because you can't have a second shade to protect you in melee. So you have to re-cast it on top of yourself (assuming you don't get instakilled before then), but the cooldown is so long that eventually you won't be able to keep re-positioning your shade to keep up with your kitting. Eh..... I can't see a way around this to make it manageable without having a "remove all shades" button.

The barrier reduction is also ridiculous. The whole thing about scourge is to have barrier instead of deathshroud/reaper shroud. Now that barrier will be even smaller, and this change will mostly affect Curses Scourge, which is already harder and more squishy than Blood Scourge!!!I think a good way to re-work this is to reduce the amount of barrier that allies get while not changing the barrier that the Necro gets (so the Necro keeps its defensive capabilities but has reduced support?)

The only upside is - this might make core Necro <3 or Reaper a better option in PvP because the alternative would be been gutted like a piglet. So I guess it's not all bad, just the fact that scourge will suck if this goes through.

TL:DR: ugly cry

THIS! This is exactly everything that I thought about the rework and could not write down without getting in rage mode. Please, look at that specific post and you see why the rework is not appropriate for pvp.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Acyk.9671 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:For those of you who are slow thinkers: this is a straight buff for scourge in wvw. Instead of using f3 after f1, you now just cast it before f1 to apply 10 target barrier in an aoe around you before placing your new 10 target shade. Burst combo went from f1, f5, f2, f3, f4 to f3, f1 ,f5, f2, f4. That's it.

You even play the exact same way. The only tradeoff is you don't cleanse 1 condition from 5 people around you. In exchange you now do 50% more damage. The balance team heard that you're upset and decided spitting in your face was the correct course of action.

Exactly but i don't think they wanted to spit at us ^^.More like they want to reduce the impact of everything by mixing different proposals while keeping both small and big shade which fixes nothing in the end. They want our gameplay and position to be played according to the trait we use but we will always choose 10 target in WvW for an optimum result and since they don't listen about specifically reducing f5 power ratio/coeff, you end up with a stronger big shade at range that will be abused by more power scourge. Best case scenario they reduce not the damage but the power coeff itself and we go back to playing cele or they keep it like this and it's going to be worse than what we experience currently...

This is one of the worst balance decisions they've made, right up there with dhuumfire proving on every f5 tick.

What happens if you portal bomb with 20 scourges using harbinger shroud? Precast it, wait 2s, take portal, collect bags. Doesn't matter how big the zerg is, 200 target cap should flatten it with each scourge doing a minimum of 100k. Why would you even play anything else?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

would be nice if you guys reduced the activation time of harbinger shroud (while a shade is active) while you're at it. it takes far too long and everyone moves out of its radius easily.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Dreddo.9865]

The reason why scourge had its shades shared to himself and a targeted area is that it has maybe the lowest self sustain capability among all professions. I am starting to believe people behind those changes don't have a clue of how the class operates - as of course many of those commenting that the scourge is actually becoming stronger (lol).

[Arkantos.7460]

rev needs a lot more defense buffs for JalisInspiring reinforcments is good beginningRite of dwarf needs also stability otherwise its just an expensive stunbreaker,vengeful hammers doing short stun while active

[Lily.1935]

@"Dreddo.9865" said:The reason why scourge had its shades shared to himself and a targeted area is that it has maybe the lowest self sustain capability among all professions. I am starting to believe people behind those changes don't have a clue of how the class operates - as of course many of those commenting that the scourge is actually becoming stronger (lol).

You miss the nuances of the comments. Most are saying that the scourge is getting a lot worse for PvE and PvP but remaining just as oppressive in WvW. It's not a flat "stronger" or "weaker" it's the scourge being nerfed hard in the game modes it doesn't need to be and a change that doesn't address the issues in wvw.

[X T D.6458]

Boon spam is out of control in WvW and you keep nerfing the only class that can counter it....just why....

If I understand this correctly....the change to Sand Savant means Scourge in melee range basically wont have to place a shade down before using shade skills to get the full effect. Now what if you place it at range, what happens to barrier application and associated traits? Also how does the target cap differentiate between allies and enemies? If I cannot even get barrier if I place the shade at range, than what is even the point? This would only make Scourge useful in melee range, and even more reliant on being in a group with a Firebrand, since Necromancers have no defensive abilities or movement skills to compete with other classes.

[DragonFury.6243]

WORST change everthis fix nothing in WvW people complain about scourge hit 10 (range & melee ) target now it hit 10 target ( range or melee )while destroying support & dps scourge in PvEscourge was the shitiest dps class in PvE now it will become shity and clunck and useless on moving target ( which is most of the fight scourge is viable at )do arena-net think nobody play scourge in PvE ????????

[Vex.2375]

This is the chrono-changes all over again. Right now I love playing as support necro in raids and open world. This change will not ruin the build / playstyle, but it will make it so much more clunky and so much less fun. With this change, whenever I place a shade, I'll have to recast it quickly, to still cover my group. I can't just cancel it, but will have to wait until it runs out. Also I won't be able to support a split group as well as I am able to now.

Please stop reworking core mechanics like this - do it like the phantasm change instead! That changed a clunky bit of gameplay that held the class back into a fun, dynamic mechanic that made the mesmer feel more like... well, a mesmer. Instead of breaking what was there (like with the chrono shatter change), you improved upon your previous design.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@"Dreddo.9865" said:The reason why scourge had its shades shared to himself and a targeted area is that it has maybe the lowest self sustain capability among all professions. I am starting to believe people behind those changes don't have a clue of how the class operates - as of course many of those commenting that the scourge is actually becoming stronger (lol).

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88080/how-the-sand-savant-change-is-going-to-play-out#latest

Here, math. Scourge is getting a buff for wvw with this patch both in damage and barrier output if they go live with this 'nerf'

[Dawdler.8521]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:What happens if you portal bomb with 20 scourges using harbinger shroud? Precast it, wait 2s, take portal, collect bags. Doesn't matter how big the zerg is, 200 target cap should flatten it with each scourge doing a minimum of 100k. Why would you even play anything else?Well, why dont you try it then?

With this logic, a while ago every zerg should have just been 95% berserkers that portal bombed with arcing slice.

Or why even go through so many steps and involve other classes, a zoneblob with 80 mesmers could just move through portals all the time and insta shatter any enemy zerg it encounter. You wouldnt even need that high damage because they would also be stealthing every second with MI pulses dropping the beat on the dancefloor. Want to target them? Oh look its 500 of them. Welcome to lag.

Wvw doesnt really work like that.

[Dreddo.9865]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@"Dreddo.9865" said:The reason why scourge had its shades shared to himself and a targeted area is that it has maybe the lowest self sustain capability among all professions. I am starting to believe people behind those changes don't have a clue of how the class operates - as of course many of those commenting that the scourge is actually becoming stronger (lol).

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88080/how-the-sand-savant-change-is-going-to-play-out#latest

Here, math. Scourge is getting a buff for wvw with this patch both in damage and barrier output if they go live with this 'nerf'I 'll give you some other 'math' to consider. Say a group with '20 scourges and 5 firebrands' and another with "10 firebrands, 5 scourges, and 10 player mix of revs, weavers" with your logic the buffed scourge group should wipe the second group that lacks a lot of dps right?You falsely try to present the scourge bomb as the problem while this was never the issue in the first place. All the proposed changes besides the '10 targets in WvW' which no one playing Scourge ever asked for, are big nerfs and will make scourge almost redudant as a standalone class.

[bluberblasen.9684]

As a Roamer:

when do we reduce the def buff ?100 all stats is way too much. Reduce it to 25 or 50.AndReduce Bloodlust too.30 all stats is okey but not 50 or 60. IT favors the servers with more people....

Thank you :)

friendly reminder ³dont forget about dead eyes. ( no one but Dead Eyes likes perma stealth, perma evades, perma teleport) nerf it and increase their damage instead.

friendly reminder ( i think number 40 or more in all my posts... ) revert the elementalist mainhand dagger air 1 nerf. ( in short increae the range BACK to ITS 300 range like the last 6 and half years. ) there was no nerf needed. You said you want have a " 60 ish " . But 300 WAS ALREADY a 60 ish. AND the new 240 Range is BAD !!Very bad ! i think you never tried 240 range lightning wipe ? ITS BAD - it needs its 300 range back.

[Titan.8215]

I think that you should split class mechanics between game modes, because you don't need to **** scourge in PvE just for WvW and viceversa, like you do with the skills.

This already happened with Chrono, due to lots of nerf in PvE, now support chrono is gone in WvW. Split class mechanics in gamemodes please, and try to rollback changes if they are bad (like Chrono F's or new Scourge class mechanics).

[shaggy.2768]

i think the elephant in the room is that there isn't any mount changes.also soulbeasts damage isnt the issue its that they have insane sustain while hitting like a truck.boon beast, the amount of leaps/ evades and invuls are the issuefurther more the bug allowing rangers to attack though tower walls with long bow and there pets needs to be addressed

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@X T D.6458 said:Boon spam is out of control in WvW and you keep nerfing the only class that can counter it....just why....

They are also nerfing Scrapper through Antitoxin runes so it wont be able to generate as many Boons from cleansing Condis

[Lazze.9870]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have 500 bonus range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.

[Blocki.4931]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.

Every projectile does it, but NONE OF THEM ARE AT THE LEVEL OF LONGBOW 1. Most projectiles end around 1600 to 1700, Longbow does at 2000. That's just plain unfair and unintended. At least bring it in line.

[Lazze.9870]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.

Every projectile does it, but NONE OF THEM ARE AT THE LEVEL OF LONGBOW 1. Most projectiles end around 1600 to 1700, Longbow does at 2000. That's just plain unfair and unintended. At least bring it in line.

AND NONE OTHER ARCHING PROJECTILES HAVE THE STATED RANGE OF THE LONGBOW EITHER. Most projectiles in this game are stated as 1200 at most, ranger longbow is 1500. Bring it in line you say? If they bring it in line with other arching projectiles, leaving it at max 1600-1700 range, completely ignoring the fact that it should have 300 more range than other weapons to begin, how is that fair?

Read the damn thread. I know how it works.

[praqtos.9035]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.Neither I give a F how biased you are.Its need to be fixed along with all projectiles, especially ranger LB.@Blocki.4931 its the same o for 1-2-3 skills, not just autoattacking, all of them around 1900 to 2000 range, elevation matters.

[praqtos.9035]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:fact their auto attack is beyond overpowered either.With 2000 range, aned furiously ignore that, somehow.

And again, it's just like all other projectiles in the game.Post a proof that all projectiles has 2000 range or projectiles travel bonus 500 range upon reaching its maximum range, can you ?

All arching projectiles in this game go further than the stated range. Ranger's longbow goes the furthest because it has the furthest baseline range too.

Point being that it isn't exclusive to ranger, but everyone words it as if this is some unique ranger bug.Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range and barely noticable, it noticable at all. They dont even track you at that range, meanwhile ranger LB does. Not even a single weapon has that absurd range(2000 rofl) and damage.I wouldnt even bat an eye if they hard cap every weapon at stated range.

"Not even single projectile in this game doesnt have

500 bonus

range"

Word.

I told you how it works, and that it works like other projectiles, and why it goes further. I don't give a flying F about how mad you are about it.

Every projectile does it, but NONE OF THEM ARE AT THE LEVEL OF LONGBOW 1. Most projectiles end around 1600 to 1700, Longbow does at 2000. That's just plain unfair and unintended. At least bring it in line.

AND NONE OTHER ARCHING PROJECTILES HAVE THE STATED RANGE OF THE LONGBOW EITHER. Most projectiles in this game are stated as 1200 at most, ranger longbow is 1500. If they're gonna "bring it in line", that's essentially nerfing one of the unique advantages that weapon has.So mad, wow. Unfair advantage doesnt mean unique advantage.FYI deadeye rifle is 1500 range, its projectiles doesnt go to ~2000 range.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I think it makes perfect sense that a long bow out ranges a sniper rifle, I mean sounds right doesn't it? Lol