Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?Regulation =/= BanWell then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing. Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)You just countered your own argument at the end there. Right they have no resell value so its entertainment. Also many games haven what's called skip tickets or vouchers which give you the random rewards of the dungeon without having to run the dungeon. This saves time and can be purchased with real money or earned in game. How is this any different from paying cash for a black lion key which you could otherwise earn by killing random mobs in game. The cash transaction is just a time save. So it's not really "gambling" more than it is convenience.I didn't counter my own argument, i just used your definition. The items have no resell value so you're stuck with "valueless" items and a negative amount of money.If the dungeon shows the reward you get by using the voucher it is not gambling, if you are able to pay extra money for an extra roll it is gambling again.I think it's no more gambling then killing a random mob and hoping for a precursor. It's a game of chance rather than a legal definition of gambling (at least in the us)Frankly belgium's laws are draconian and suppressive and they should repeal them just as quickly as they put them in place. Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Except you don't have to pay everytime you kill a random mob. Killing a mob doesn't cost you anything. You're calling new laws "draconian". Funny. You're not being penalized, since you're an adult (I guess). But it doesn't matter, the politicians will decide in the end.Do you have to pay to get a black lion key everytime? Funny I remember they drop from story chapters and mobs too? You're not aware of that?You don't get it, do you? Black lion keys are fine as long as their acquisition method is restricted to the game. They are fine if they are a drop, there's no problem in opening a lootbox, as long as you don't pay for it with real money. Once you're able to spend real money for something, the situation completely changes.Lmao ok.. sorry but getting a key with money is an optional convenience item for an activity that is tantamount to killing a random mob or opening a chest in the open world. The mobs and story drop the same keys, so paying money is optional nd isnt the only method of acquiring them.Everything you obtain (like every reward in the entire game) in game has 0 resell value. So no I don't see how this is gambling at all. It seems like entertainment since you're playing the game and paying for time saving optional shortcuts If you so choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 The lootboxes are fine, why do people obsess over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?Regulation =/= BanWell then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing. Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)You just countered your own argument at the end there. Right they have no resell value so its entertainment. Also many games haven what's called skip tickets or vouchers which give you the random rewards of the dungeon without having to run the dungeon. This saves time and can be purchased with real money or earned in game. How is this any different from paying cash for a black lion key which you could otherwise earn by killing random mobs in game. The cash transaction is just a time save. So it's not really "gambling" more than it is convenience.I didn't counter my own argument, i just used your definition. The items have no resell value so you're stuck with "valueless" items and a negative amount of money.If the dungeon shows the reward you get by using the voucher it is not gambling, if you are able to pay extra money for an extra roll it is gambling again.I think it's no more gambling then killing a random mob and hoping for a precursor. It's a game of chance rather than a legal definition of gambling (at least in the us)Frankly belgium's laws are draconian and suppressive and they should repeal them just as quickly as they put them in place. Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Except you don't have to pay everytime you kill a random mob. Killing a mob doesn't cost you anything. You're calling new laws "draconian". Funny. You're not being penalized, since you're an adult (I guess). But it doesn't matter, the politicians will decide in the end.Do you have to pay to get a black lion key everytime? Funny I remember they drop from story chapters and mobs too? You're not aware of that?You don't get it, do you? Black lion keys are fine as long as their acquisition method is restricted to the game. They are fine if they are a drop, there's no problem in opening a lootbox, as long as you don't pay for it with real money. Once you're able to spend real money for something, the situation completely changes.Lmao ok.. sorry but getting a key with money is an optional convenience item for an activity that is tantamount to killing a random mob or opening a chest in the open world. The mobs and story drop the same keys, so paying money is optional nd isnt the only method of acquiring them.Everything you obtain (like every reward in the entire game) in game has 0 resell value. So no I don't see how this is gambling at all. It seems like entertainment since you're playing the game and paying for time saving optional shortcuts If you so choose. That's like saying there's no gambling at all in the real world, since gambling is just an optional way to earn money. You can just work in the "open world" and earn money that way, since gambling is just optional and not the only way to acquire money. So there shouldn't be any gambling laws at all. That's just nonsense in my opinion.Like I already said, it's up to the politicians how this whole situation will end, so neither of our opinions matter. You can say it isn't gambling in your eyes, I'll say the opposite, since you're paying money to roll a dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryukai.6524 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Why should a parent have to watch a child play a game that's rated for 3 year olds just to make sure they don't engage in gambling...... that's what the gambling laws Are For! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Ryukai.6524 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Why should a parent have to watch a child play a game that's rated for 3 year olds just to make sure they don't engage in gambling...... that's what the gambling laws ARE FOR!Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in? Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid? The game is rated 13+ btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?Regulation =/= BanWell then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing. Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)You just countered your own argument at the end there. Right they have no resell value so its entertainment. Also many games haven what's called skip tickets or vouchers which give you the random rewards of the dungeon without having to run the dungeon. This saves time and can be purchased with real money or earned in game. How is this any different from paying cash for a black lion key which you could otherwise earn by killing random mobs in game. The cash transaction is just a time save. So it's not really "gambling" more than it is convenience.I didn't counter my own argument, i just used your definition. The items have no resell value so you're stuck with "valueless" items and a negative amount of money.If the dungeon shows the reward you get by using the voucher it is not gambling, if you are able to pay extra money for an extra roll it is gambling again.I think it's no more gambling then killing a random mob and hoping for a precursor. It's a game of chance rather than a legal definition of gambling (at least in the us)Frankly belgium's laws are draconian and suppressive and they should repeal them just as quickly as they put them in place. Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Except you don't have to pay everytime you kill a random mob. Killing a mob doesn't cost you anything. You're calling new laws "draconian". Funny. You're not being penalized, since you're an adult (I guess). But it doesn't matter, the politicians will decide in the end.Do you have to pay to get a black lion key everytime? Funny I remember they drop from story chapters and mobs too? You're not aware of that?You don't get it, do you? Black lion keys are fine as long as their acquisition method is restricted to the game. They are fine if they are a drop, there's no problem in opening a lootbox, as long as you don't pay for it with real money. Once you're able to spend real money for something, the situation completely changes.Lmao ok.. sorry but getting a key with money is an optional convenience item for an activity that is tantamount to killing a random mob or opening a chest in the open world. The mobs and story drop the same keys, so paying money is optional nd isnt the only method of acquiring them.Everything you obtain (like every reward in the entire game) in game has 0 resell value. So no I don't see how this is gambling at all. It seems like entertainment since you're playing the game and paying for time saving optional shortcuts If you so choose. That's like saying there's no gambling at all in the real world, since gambling is just an optional way to earn money. You can just work in the "open world" and earn money that way, since gambling is just optional and not the only way to acquire money. So there shouldn't be any gambling laws at all. That's just nonsense in my opinion.Like I already said, it's up to the politicians how this whole situation will end, so neither of our opinions matter. You can say it isn't gambling in your eyes, I'll say the opposite, since you're paying money to roll a dice.Well time is money so, so you can say it's all gambling or none of it is gambling luckily in the US we have well established laws which constitute a legal definition of gambling and gw2 lootboxes dont meet it. Not even close lol. Which is why I think this whole argument is nonsense.I mean if you distil it enough, crossing the street is a gamble as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryukai.6524 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Ryukai.6524 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Why should a parent have to watch a child play a game that's rated for 3 year olds just to make sure they don't engage in gambling...... that's what the gambling laws ARE FOR!Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in? Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid? The game is rated 13+ btw.Then your blaming the Wrong people, Lootboxes aren't even truly 'Banned' in Belgium they were redefined as gambling and as long as the game companies follow the laws in relation to gambling they would actually be ALLOWED in the games in question. But NO the Gaming industry took the EASY way out and just full stop removed them, and do you know why? Because if they had done so it would be an instant redflag to all the other countries in the world that they had 'accepted' that they are a gambling mechanic and would have taken a look at them a lot sooner! The Games companies THEMSELVES started the whole 'lootboxes are banned' crud. When they are NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 This again. Sadly ANet can't just lock these conversations without appearing to side on their own side. Because this is really a serious political conversation and should be blocked. This is something for reddit and not the forums. You can argue it's about gameplay but this just leads to should your government be involved and there are a lot of good meaning people that will be on both sides and will not agree. OP thanks for the article but from there, write your government with your thoughts on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?Regulation =/= BanWell then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing. Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)You just countered your own argument at the end there. Right they have no resell value so its entertainment. Also many games haven what's called skip tickets or vouchers which give you the random rewards of the dungeon without having to run the dungeon. This saves time and can be purchased with real money or earned in game. How is this any different from paying cash for a black lion key which you could otherwise earn by killing random mobs in game. The cash transaction is just a time save. So it's not really "gambling" more than it is convenience.I didn't counter my own argument, i just used your definition. The items have no resell value so you're stuck with "valueless" items and a negative amount of money.If the dungeon shows the reward you get by using the voucher it is not gambling, if you are able to pay extra money for an extra roll it is gambling again.I think it's no more gambling then killing a random mob and hoping for a precursor. It's a game of chance rather than a legal definition of gambling (at least in the us)Frankly belgium's laws are draconian and suppressive and they should repeal them just as quickly as they put them in place. Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Except you don't have to pay everytime you kill a random mob. Killing a mob doesn't cost you anything. You're calling new laws "draconian". Funny. You're not being penalized, since you're an adult (I guess). But it doesn't matter, the politicians will decide in the end.Do you have to pay to get a black lion key everytime? Funny I remember they drop from story chapters and mobs too? You're not aware of that?You don't get it, do you? Black lion keys are fine as long as their acquisition method is restricted to the game. They are fine if they are a drop, there's no problem in opening a lootbox, as long as you don't pay for it with real money. Once you're able to spend real money for something, the situation completely changes.Lmao ok.. sorry but getting a key with money is an optional convenience item for an activity that is tantamount to killing a random mob or opening a chest in the open world. The mobs and story drop the same keys, so paying money is optional nd isnt the only method of acquiring them.Everything you obtain (like every reward in the entire game) in game has 0 resell value. So no I don't see how this is gambling at all. It seems like entertainment since you're playing the game and paying for time saving optional shortcuts If you so choose. That's like saying there's no gambling at all in the real world, since gambling is just an optional way to earn money. You can just work in the "open world" and earn money that way, since gambling is just optional and not the only way to acquire money. So there shouldn't be any gambling laws at all. That's just nonsense in my opinion.Like I already said, it's up to the politicians how this whole situation will end, so neither of our opinions matter. You can say it isn't gambling in your eyes, I'll say the opposite, since you're paying money to roll a dice.Well time is money so, so you can say it's all gambling or none of it is gambling luckily in the US we have well established laws which constitute a legal definition of gambling and gw2 lootboxes dont meet it. Not even close lolYeah, I'm aware that the US has some questionable laws. I'm just happy to see that various countries in the EU have taken notice of the whole lootbox situation and are starting to change their laws to better accomodate to new technologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @TheGrimm.5624 said:This again.Yeah, I reported it and hope that the mods will close it as it really isn't adding anything to this topic which hasn't already been covered in the other gambling/lootbox threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Ryukai.6524 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Ryukai.6524 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Why should a parent have to watch a child play a game that's rated for 3 year olds just to make sure they don't engage in gambling...... that's what the gambling laws ARE FOR!Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in? Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid? The game is rated 13+ btw.Then your blaming the Wrong people, Lootboxes aren't even truly 'Banned' in Belgium they were redefined as gambling and as long as the game companies follow the laws in relation to gambling they would actually be ALLOWED in the games in question. But NO the Gaming industry took the EASY way out and just full stop removed them, and do you know why? Because if they had done so it would be an instant redflag to all the other countries in the world that they had 'accepted' that they are a gambling mechanic and would have taken a look at them a lot sooner! The Games companies THEMSELVES started the whole 'lootboxes are banned' crud. When they are NOT.All I know is when they "regulate" this stuff it results in tons of games I play being shut down or tons of aspects of them that i enjoy being gutted. And all i hear from the other side is protect the children. I dont see how this is protecting them, I'd watch my own kids and take responsibility for what they consume. And I also dont want the activities I enjoy (and there arent many of tbem) being impacted by someone else whom I dont know or care about simply because they appear to be lazy and incapable of monitoring their children behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.Why do we need this lol. These lootboxes dont bother me. Why not just ban anything that results in some type of vice. I know how about food? Someone cant control themselves with that and got overweight, therefore everyone should not be able to have it. This is the same philosophy.What's next limiting how many hours a day people can play games or banning them outright because someone, somewhere got addicted and couldnt control themselevs?So, you're saying lootboxes aren't gambling and therefore shouldn't be subject to gambling laws? Lootboxes aren't banned in Belgium, they're classified as gambling and therefore shouldn't exist in games targeted to non-adults.Comparing being overweight to gambling targeted at children is not the same philosophy. Lootboxes not bothering you personally is not a valuable argument, since they do bother a lot of other people.Gambling addiction is also a thing, just like alcohol addiction and other addictions. Last time i've checked there's no alcohol ban in most countries, is there?Regulation =/= BanWell then I guess we should have mandatory regulation on videogame play time. Basically the same thing. Frankly I think loot boxes are benign and arent really gambling since what you get isnt money back which is part of the legal definition of gambling. Youre not actually recieving anything that can be sold back for value. So frankly I think no regulation is needed or warented. It's almost the same as running a dungeon and recieving a random "reward" Is that gambling too?Alcohol doesn't have a regulation on the amount you can drink, why should playtime on videogames have one? Saying it is basically the same thing doesn't magically make it the same thing.I didn't know you had to pay to run dungeons, everytime you run the dungeon. Also if that were the case, you'd pay for the "dungeon-run"-experience, the bosses and everything around that, the loot would be an extra thing. So no, that's not gambling to me, since i'm paying for the whole dungeon, not just rolling the dice to get some item by doing nothing but using a credit card.The legal definition of gambling is different in every country, so you can't just use the definition you like the most. Lootboxes are gambling in Belgium by definition, so your argument about them not being gambling in legal terms is nonsense.Lootboxes are actually worse than gambling, since put in money to get virtual goods without resell value, so you are throwing money at nothing, since you don't "recieve anything", by your definition. Atleast with normal gambling you have a chance to have a return of investment ;)You just countered your own argument at the end there. Right they have no resell value so its entertainment. Also many games haven what's called skip tickets or vouchers which give you the random rewards of the dungeon without having to run the dungeon. This saves time and can be purchased with real money or earned in game. How is this any different from paying cash for a black lion key which you could otherwise earn by killing random mobs in game. The cash transaction is just a time save. So it's not really "gambling" more than it is convenience.I didn't counter my own argument, i just used your definition. The items have no resell value so you're stuck with "valueless" items and a negative amount of money.If the dungeon shows the reward you get by using the voucher it is not gambling, if you are able to pay extra money for an extra roll it is gambling again.I think it's no more gambling then killing a random mob and hoping for a precursor. It's a game of chance rather than a legal definition of gambling (at least in the us)Frankly belgium's laws are draconian and suppressive and they should repeal them just as quickly as they put them in place. Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Except you don't have to pay everytime you kill a random mob. Killing a mob doesn't cost you anything. You're calling new laws "draconian". Funny. You're not being penalized, since you're an adult (I guess). But it doesn't matter, the politicians will decide in the end.Do you have to pay to get a black lion key everytime? Funny I remember they drop from story chapters and mobs too? You're not aware of that?You don't get it, do you? Black lion keys are fine as long as their acquisition method is restricted to the game. They are fine if they are a drop, there's no problem in opening a lootbox, as long as you don't pay for it with real money. Once you're able to spend real money for something, the situation completely changes.Lmao ok.. sorry but getting a key with money is an optional convenience item for an activity that is tantamount to killing a random mob or opening a chest in the open world. The mobs and story drop the same keys, so paying money is optional nd isnt the only method of acquiring them.Everything you obtain (like every reward in the entire game) in game has 0 resell value. So no I don't see how this is gambling at all. It seems like entertainment since you're playing the game and paying for time saving optional shortcuts If you so choose. That's like saying there's no gambling at all in the real world, since gambling is just an optional way to earn money. You can just work in the "open world" and earn money that way, since gambling is just optional and not the only way to acquire money. So there shouldn't be any gambling laws at all. That's just nonsense in my opinion.Like I already said, it's up to the politicians how this whole situation will end, so neither of our opinions matter. You can say it isn't gambling in your eyes, I'll say the opposite, since you're paying money to roll a dice.Well time is money so, so you can say it's all gambling or none of it is gambling luckily in the US we have well established laws which constitute a legal definition of gambling and gw2 lootboxes dont meet it. Not even close lolYeah, I'm aware that the US has some questionable laws. I'm just happy to see that various countries in the EU have taken notice of the whole lootbox situation and are starting to change their laws to better accomodate to new technologies.And I feel exactly the opposite lol I dont like this direction I feel like life should be less regulated not more. Freedom of expression and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calistin.6210 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Ryukai.6524 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Why should a parent have to watch a child play a game that's rated for 3 year olds just to make sure they don't engage in gambling...... that's what the gambling laws ARE FOR!Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in? Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid? The game is rated 13+ btw.You are not confined to anything but like in most things there is a time and place for each, this kind of thing doesn't belong in our videos games. Frankly if a game shut down because they cannot survive without gambling or surprise mechanic lootboxes then they don't deserve to survive anyways. The "companies need lootboxes to thrive" excuse has always been a strawmen and that hasn't changed, about the only thing that has changed is the ad nauseam poor games that rely and concentrate on lootboxes and fleecing the masses that buy them instead of concentrating on making good games. Nor is it about regulating life or taking people freedoms away. If someone wants gamble then go do so at the appropriate place just like when I want to have a drink I do so at home or a place with a liquor license and not at a park or while driving my car.At least that's what I think. Only thing I can say is kudos to Belgium for starting the puck rolling, good job on the UK on keeping it going and hopefully more countries will follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Nik.2518 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Ryukai.6524 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:@Ryukai.6524 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Leave people to their own decisions and maybe parents should watch their kids. Not everyone should be penalized because others have kids and decide not to watch them.Why should a parent have to watch a child play a game that's rated for 3 year olds just to make sure they don't engage in gambling...... that's what the gambling laws ARE FOR!Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in? Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid? The game is rated 13+ btw.Then your blaming the Wrong people, Lootboxes aren't even truly 'Banned' in Belgium they were redefined as gambling and as long as the game companies follow the laws in relation to gambling they would actually be ALLOWED in the games in question. But NO the Gaming industry took the EASY way out and just full stop removed them, and do you know why? Because if they had done so it would be an instant redflag to all the other countries in the world that they had 'accepted' that they are a gambling mechanic and would have taken a look at them a lot sooner! The Games companies THEMSELVES started the whole 'lootboxes are banned' crud. When they are NOT.All I know is when they "regulate" this stuff it results in tons of games I play being shut down or tons of aspects of them that i enjoy being gutted. And all i hear from the other side is protect the children. I dont see how this is protecting them, I'd watch my own kids and take responsibility for what they consume. And I also dont want the activities I enjoy (and there arent many of tbem) being impacted by someone else whom I dont know or care about simply because they appear to be lazy and incapable of monitoring their children behaviors.Because sometimes as a society, it's not about you.The reason why many countries have very restricitve gun laws is not because of the 99% of possible responsible gun owners. It's the 1% that make it necessary to alter laws.Same principle here, though way more groups are at risk.Minors and teens are special need groups which, in a reasonable society, require special care and protection because they are still developing. It's frigthening to read about children spending their parents money on lootboxes. What is even more frightening is the terminology most small children use once confronted with what happened: they are sorry for being naughty. Basically having no concept of what they actually did wrong. That's where lootboxes and the way these predatory practices opperate becomes questionable.As someone else mentioned, you are blaming the wrong crowd here. If the gaming industry decides to discontinue their services in a country because it is easier to not adapt their product to new legislation (and ultimately risk losing money in other countries) you should be blaming the gaming companies for taking the greedy and easy way out. Not the legislators and society who are merely following certain responsibilities.@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I'd watch my own kids and take responsibility for what they consume.That's someone who has no kids would say. You have obviously never been around children or had responsibility for children in todays day and age. Good luck watching your kids 24/7 while working a job and they are influenced most of the time by literally everyone else around them. It is impossible unless you decide to lock your child away in a room and never let them interact with any part of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Ol Nik.2518 said:@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+. I would rather see the game get a 16+ rating. That is the age at which Belgium, and some other EU countries, allow consumption of alcohol and tobacco. Its the legal driving age here in the US (not sure about elsewhere). If someone can drink, smoke, marry, operate one of the deadliest machines in human history, etc then they should be expected to make personal choices and be accountable for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Cyninja.2954 said:That's someone who has no kids would say. You have obviously never been around children or had responsibility for children in todays day and age. Good luck watching your kids 24/7 while working a job and they are influenced most of the time by literally everyone else around them. It is impossible unless you decide to lock your child away in a room and never let them interact with any part of society.As someone currently working in the education system of the very specific target demographic of kids affected by those issues, that is brutally correct, on several fronts.One : children are constantly and irremediably in contact with the internet, social network in particular, and constantly talk about games. I've personally considered Fortnite to be a fad that would quickly keel over after a year. It was released during my early years working in a secondary school. It is still kicking, and still -the- subject of talks on the playgrounds. Kids talk constantly about all the stuff they're going to get and all the new releases. None of them -ever- mention money. They are not connecting the dots. Assuming a kid enter the school without knowledge of that game, simply moving around in the playground will quickly get them hearing about it, and getting them participating in the conversation, joining the ranks. It is so depressingly common, that in 2 schools with 400 kids, an easy 250 of them in both schools know those games, and willingly indulge in microtransactions. The sad part is that their generation was born with the constant internet access that we, as adult did not. There are a lot of things that they see that we do not Simply because at their age, there wasn't such a constant barrage, both of media, and of microtransaction practices. And that brings me to the Second point : Parents are the LEAST effective in keeping their kids in check when it comes to microtransactions because of the previous reasons : they were born at a time where they werent in place, and for the vast majority, do not suspect of how surprisingly common a child using his lunch money (or more) to buy microtransaction instead of actual food. The massive disconnect between parents and their children when it come to those practices is precisely why the industry gets away with it so easily. They do -not- see it, and they do -not- know how their kids fall into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowmoon.7986 Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 @TheGrimm.5624 said:This again. Sadly ANet can't just lock these conversations without appearing to side on their own side. Because this is really a serious political conversation and should be blocked. This is something for reddit and not the forums. You can argue it's about gameplay but this just leads to should your government be involved and there are a lot of good meaning people that will be on both sides and will not agree. OP thanks for the article but from there, write your government with your thoughts on either side. The report came out yesterday it is not old new. Uk citizens play this game. This game has lootboxes defined in this report. Should players in the uk be oblivious to having their gemstore removed of blacklion keys, mount licences, dye packs, or knife tail bonds in the coming months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 @Shadowmoon.7986 said:@TheGrimm.5624 said:This again. Sadly ANet can't just lock these conversations without appearing to side on their own side. Because this is really a serious political conversation and should be blocked. This is something for reddit and not the forums. You can argue it's about gameplay but this just leads to should your government be involved and there are a lot of good meaning people that will be on both sides and will not agree. OP thanks for the article but from there, write your government with your thoughts on either side. The report came out yesterday it is not old new. Uk citizens play this game. This game has lootboxes defined in this report. Should players in the uk be oblivious to having their gemstore removed of blacklion keys, mount licences, dye packs, or knife tail bonds in the coming months?No, of course they should not be oblivious. They should be concerned about the possible ramifications of deciding to, potentially, exclude themselves from those in game elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiviana.2650 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 @Raknar.4735 said:About time they did. We still need the other countries to follow Belgium's decision on lootboxes.I agree with you, and i can see most players do also. These game companies have got away with this for too long, the majority has spoken, players dont want this stuff in the games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor.5068 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 A possible loophole anet can use (even in countries that already banned them) would be to remove the keys from the store and replace it with the statuettes. BUT when you buy a statuette you get 1 free unlocked Black lion chest with your statuette purchase. You no longer are selling a gambling item, but a guaranteed currency statuette, with a bonus mystery chest with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 As if UK politicians are someone you'd want to listen to...they can't even govern their own country and you want them to determine whether or not loot boxes and such are bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinisterSlay.6973 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Threads like this are funny when you read the one about getting the Starborn outfit and people spending $60+ in keys just to get it. More than the cost of the game and 2 expansions for a single outfit. Your better off actually gambling at a casino, at least you might win something worth real money.As for what this means for gw2? It would probably kill the game. As I said, they get the cost of 2 expansions per fancy skin they add. Losing lootboxes would kill them, and 99% of all games on the itunes and play store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghetx.1752 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 @Blur.3465 said:You can get Black Lion Keys from Story, Exploration and Drops. (Make a new character and do a bit of story, you will get a couple of keys, do exploration you will get keys too, you can get keys from random drops as well. Delete the character, make a new one, repeat)Sure,you can get them as drop,and i did get 2 keys in 6 years on 2 different accounts.New character and 'bit' of story doesn't work,because you don't get couple keys.You get one key for completing first step in personal story,and that's made in a way you actually can do it once a week.2 additional keys you get once you actually invest time into leveling char and doing lots of story,running here and there,which beats whole 'gamble' thing.Whole point of gamble is wanting 'reward' fast.Leveling and doing story for keys does NOT pays off,because by the time u level your char and finish story,explore maps and everything else that gives keys,you actually lose gold by simply not doing meta events and sw farm instead.That's the reason why people buy keys instead farming them.You wrote whole post to make it look easy,because you simply don't want to admit certain things.Its not like you sit,make new char,and off you farm keys.If that was the case,everyone would be doing it instead meta events farming.It simply DOES NOT WORK.Last night in chest i got best reward ever since i started playing,and that was 4 gold dye.I NEVER,NEVER EVER got something that cost more.Sure,there are some people who get 2 weapon tickets in 2 chests in a row,but that's why it should be illegal,because so called 'rng' is nothing but gamble,and its made in that way,that when you calculate time invested,money,gold and everything else,you realize you actually lost BIG TIME.You got your shiny new weapon tickets for the first time since you started playing,and behind you,you have probably 500 or more dollars lost.If rng exist at all in this game,BLC's have nothing to do with it.You have less than 0.01% chance of getting something that has any value.No one can tell me every single player who dig up over 300 chests every night in SW has bad rng,for months.All i do is SW farm,chests and vw,never saw item that's better than Twister in a Jar and Carpace boxes,and even that happens every 50-70 chests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowmoon.7986 Posted September 14, 2019 Author Share Posted September 14, 2019 @SinisterSlay.6973 said:Threads like this are funny when you read the one about getting the Starborn outfit and people spending $60+ in keys just to get it. More than the cost of the game and 2 expansions for a single outfit. Your better off actually gambling at a casino, at least you might win something worth real money.As for what this means for gw2? It would probably kill the game. As I said, they get the cost of 2 expansions per fancy skin they add. Losing lootboxes would kill them, and 99% of all games on the itunes and play store.It will only kill the game is Anet doesn't adapt and go into a new monetization structure seeing how the global trend is starting to become antilootbox. I think sub models will start getting adopted once enough of the market is gated out of lootboxes. Remember, NCsoft and Anet are the one who block lootboxes in Belguim, not because they are illegal, but they would have to rerate the game to adults only and pay a fee.Personally I would love to hear ideas to allow players in these regions to support the game monetarily while not being locked out of the skins that come from the boxes because these will certainly now be blocked by publishers to avoid an adults only rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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