UK Officials Say Loot Boxes Are Gambling

[Raknar.4735]

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

Yes I do.

Kill mobs = get lootOpen black lion chest = get lootMob loot resell value = 0Blc contents resell value = 0Kill mobs/do story = black lion keygold to gems = black lion keyPay cash = black lion key

This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

Yeah, pretty much this. If one aspect is gambling, then the entire video game market is a casino. Calling a loot box gambling borders on insane.

Not seeing the link between loot boxes and gambling is what i would call insane. The lootboxes got you, hook,line and sinker. At least casinos have the human decency to not target children, because they aren't allowed to do so.I guess Belgium is just insane!

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

Yes I do.

Kill mobs = get lootOpen black lion chest = get lootMob loot resell value = 0Blc contents resell value = 0Kill mobs/do story = black lion keygold to gems = black lion keyPay cash = black lion key

This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

Yeah, pretty much this. If one aspect is gambling, then the entire video game market is a casino. Calling a loot box gambling borders on insane.

Not seeing the link between loot boxes and gambling is what i would call insane. The lootboxes got you, hook,line and sinker. At least casinos have the human decency to not target children, because they aren't allowed to do so.I guess Belgium is just insane!

Yea they are really heavy handed in my opinion. Children need to be watched if parents are so concerned. I mean think of all the steps required for this to turn bad for children

1) parents have to buy them the game2) not supervise them while playing it3) give into their demands for a credit card or money4) give into their newly formed and obvious addiction and buy more lootboxes for them further, because they cannot say no.

Your solution is basically1) ban it for everyone.. because children.

Sorry I'm not seeing it, maybe parents should push back at any one of these steps and say hmmm... no I dont think I'm going to buy that for you, like every sane person has to do on a regular basis to avoid getting addicted to anything and everything the world has to offer.

[Raknar.4735]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

Yes I do.

Kill mobs = get lootOpen black lion chest = get lootMob loot resell value = 0Blc contents resell value = 0Kill mobs/do story = black lion keygold to gems = black lion keyPay cash = black lion key

This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

Yeah, pretty much this. If one aspect is gambling, then the entire video game market is a casino. Calling a loot box gambling borders on insane.

Not seeing the link between loot boxes and gambling is what i would call insane. The lootboxes got you, hook,line and sinker. At least casinos have the human decency to not target children, because they aren't allowed to do so.I guess Belgium is just insane!

Yea they are really heavy handed in my opinion. Children need to be watched if parents are so concerned. I mean think of all the steps required for this to turn bad for children

1) parents have to buy them the game2) not supervise them while playing it3) give into their demands for a credit card or money4) give into their then addiction and buy lootboxes for them further.

Your solution is basically1) ban it for everyone.. because children.

Sorry I'm not seeing it, maybe parents should push back at any one of these steps and say hmmm... no I dont think I'm going to buy that for you, like every sane person has to do on a regular basis to avoid getting addicted to anything and everything the world has to offer.

Again, who's talking about bans? Regulation =/= Ban"Avoid getting addicted" - You've never been addicted, have you? It's obvious to me you don't even know how an addicted person behaves.

If I buy a toy for my kids, that is specifically marketed towards kids, I expect it not to be harmful to them. I guess expecting children toys to be safe for children is insane.I'm not buying your "everyone has to avoid getting addicted". There wouldn't be any gambling laws at all if it wasn't a problem.

My solution is either remove lootboxes or market games with lootboxes as 18+.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

Yes I do.

Kill mobs = get lootOpen black lion chest = get lootMob loot resell value = 0Blc contents resell value = 0Kill mobs/do story = black lion keygold to gems = black lion keyPay cash = black lion key

This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

Yeah, pretty much this. If one aspect is gambling, then the entire video game market is a casino. Calling a loot box gambling borders on insane.

Not seeing the link between loot boxes and gambling is what i would call insane. The lootboxes got you, hook,line and sinker. At least casinos have the human decency to not target children, because they aren't allowed to do so.I guess Belgium is just insane!

Yea they are really heavy handed in my opinion. Children need to be watched if parents are so concerned. I mean think of all the steps required for this to turn bad for children

1) parents have to buy them the game2) not supervise them while playing it3) give into their demands for a credit card or money4) give into their then addiction and buy lootboxes for them further.

Your solution is basically1) ban it for everyone.. because children.

Sorry I'm not seeing it, maybe parents should push back at any one of these steps and say hmmm... no I dont think I'm going to buy that for you, like every sane person has to do on a regular basis to avoid getting addicted to anything and everything the world has to offer.

Again, who's talking about bans? Regulation =/= Ban"Avoid getting addicted" - You've never been addicted, have you? It's obvious to me you don't even know how an addicted person behaves.

If I buy a toy for my kids, that is specifically marketed towards kids, I expect it not to be harmful to them. I guess expecting children toys to be safe for children is insane.I'm not buying your "everyone has to avoid getting addicted". There wouldn't be any gambling laws at all if it wasn't a problem.

My solution is either remove lootboxes or market games with lootboxes as 18+.

Since it's not real gambling in the (us) it doesnt need to be 18+ just supervise your kids spending. If you're so worried about your kid getting addicted to "gambling" with lootboxes, why do you allow your kid to play an mmo in the first place? Since its proven that mmos and videogames in general are addictive? Should we ban all videogames next?

Or perhaps put a "regulation" on all games that says no more than 1hr of playtime per day for all games because games are addictive and children exist.

[Raknar.4735]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

Yes I do.

Kill mobs = get lootOpen black lion chest = get lootMob loot resell value = 0Blc contents resell value = 0Kill mobs/do story = black lion keygold to gems = black lion keyPay cash = black lion key

This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

Yeah, pretty much this. If one aspect is gambling, then the entire video game market is a casino. Calling a loot box gambling borders on insane.

Not seeing the link between loot boxes and gambling is what i would call insane. The lootboxes got you, hook,line and sinker. At least casinos have the human decency to not target children, because they aren't allowed to do so.I guess Belgium is just insane!

Yea they are really heavy handed in my opinion. Children need to be watched if parents are so concerned. I mean think of all the steps required for this to turn bad for children

1) parents have to buy them the game2) not supervise them while playing it3) give into their demands for a credit card or money4) give into their then addiction and buy lootboxes for them further.

Your solution is basically1) ban it for everyone.. because children.

Sorry I'm not seeing it, maybe parents should push back at any one of these steps and say hmmm... no I dont think I'm going to buy that for you, like every sane person has to do on a regular basis to avoid getting addicted to anything and everything the world has to offer.

Again, who's talking about bans? Regulation =/= Ban"Avoid getting addicted" - You've never been addicted, have you? It's obvious to me you don't even know how an addicted person behaves.

If I buy a toy for my kids, that is specifically marketed towards kids, I expect it not to be harmful to them. I guess expecting children toys to be safe for children is insane.I'm not buying your "everyone has to avoid getting addicted". There wouldn't be any gambling laws at all if it wasn't a problem.

My solution is either remove lootboxes or market games with lootboxes as 18+.

Since it's not real gambling in the (us) it doesnt need to be 18+ just supervise your kids spending. If you're so worried about your kid getting addicted to "gambling" with lootboxes, why do you allow your kid to play an mmo in the first place? Since its proven that mmos and videogames in general are addictive? Should we ban all videogames next?

Or perhaps put a "regulation" on all games that says no more than 1hr of playtime per day for all games because games are addictive and children exist.

Again with the "time-spending" that has nothing to do with the actual discussion about lootboxes?I'll just bring the alcohol back in the mix, children aren't allowed to drink it, yet there's no law about the amount you're allowed to drink as an adult. Your time-spending argument is utter nonsense.

I don't allow my kids to play MMOs because i don't have kids, yet i can see why lootboxes are a problem for children. There are countless testimonies about it. And to repeat myself, no one is talking about banning, only you are. You're not even listening to the people within this discussion, just spouting your own opinions without engaging in a discussion.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Maybe? That might fool a politician. It sounds like run-of-the-mill lawyer-speak. A psychologist would (correctly) conclude that your suggestion would be an attempt to circumvent the law -- which is of course what loopholes do.

I do wonder, though.

I see a lot of people talking about the Black Lion Chests.

What about the Mount Adoption License? You're paying money in order to get a random result. Would this also fall within the boundaries of the legal defintion of a loot box?

Taking one step further, what about the

Knife Tail Gang Hunting Bond

? You are paying for a buff that makes a single Skritt appear, who will then drop an

item

that will give you a random reward from the Black Lion collections. It feels exactly like the kind of loop hole one would use to try to circunvent rules about loot boxes.

ANET have already answered that.. they offer the option to buy a licence of choice for players not interested in playing the game of chance.To be honest I have never really thought of the mount licence packs as an issue. They are essentially a collection, which can completed slowly or fast depending on the individual. To aid in completing it ANET use increasing odds by ensuring you cannot loot the same skin twice so in essence it can be considered outside of gambling imo.But of course not everyone wants the entire collection so they buy the packs thinking they will only get a specific skin... always good to read what's on the tin I say.. and this is where the increasing odds can be favourable unlike the card pack comparison, because you cant continually buy the pack and get the same mount, but players weren't happy so now you have the option to pay a little more for the skin of your choice.

Of course no one has to actually use RL currency as there is a gold to gems option if a player chooses.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Maybe? That might fool a politician. It sounds like run-of-the-mill lawyer-speak. A psychologist would (correctly) conclude that your suggestion would be an attempt to circumvent the law -- which is of course what loopholes do.

I do wonder, though.

I see a lot of people talking about the Black Lion Chests.

What about the Mount Adoption License? You're paying money in order to get a random result. Would this also fall within the boundaries of the legal defintion of a loot box?

Taking one step further, what about the

Knife Tail Gang Hunting Bond

? You are paying for a buff that makes a single Skritt appear, who will then drop an

item

that will give you a random reward from the Black Lion collections. It feels exactly like the kind of loop hole one would use to try to circunvent rules about loot boxes.

Mount Adoption Licenses still invoke the feeling of, "I'll get it cheaper." coupled with gambler's/sunk cost fallacy thinking. What it lacks is the open-ended nature of the BLC where a given desired item is not available via Statuette. With items that have a Statuette cost, the principle is the same -- there's a max cost for the desired item. However, the potential to gamble to get it for less is still there. My thought process would be, "What is the max I would spend to get X?" followed by the thought, "That's too much." However, I'm not the target audience for the chests or mount licenses.

Knife Tail? I had to look it up. I got one, have no idea how, but have not bought any. In looking it up, I see the wiki page has a notation about the item being unavailable in Belgium due to anti-gambling laws. So, if it's a way to circumvent regulations, that will depend on how the regulation is worded.

[baguette.3248]

be careful, a very sad person called knomslayer will disagree with this topic and will try get people to waste money . other countries should adopt this to prevent money wasted on pretend characters

[googel.3278]

@baguette.3248 said:be careful, a very sad person called knomslayer will disagree with this topic and will try get people to waste money . other countries should adopt this to prevent money wasted on pretend characters

lol.

[Teratus.2859]

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I consider myself someone who utterly despises the concept of lootboxes but I find it hard to hold such a strong dislike for Gw2's black lion chests on account of several factors.

1. Keys can be earned in game via the personal story therefore eliminating entirely the need to pay cash for keys.
2. Black Lion chest contents can be previewed to show their contents and always guarantee items a player can use therefore eliminating the problem of wasted duplicates and going away empty handed.
3. There are no pay to win items, characters, skills or account upgrades in the chests that give a lucky player an advantage over an unlucky one.

Sure you can argue Black Lion Chests are technically "loot boxes" but you honestly can't compare them to the same malicious and predatory ripoffs that other companies have done in their name.

There is a massive difference between how Gw2 does lootboxes which are extremely fair and likely one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right in the entire industry.And how for example Fifa/Battlefront does lootboxes which are blatantly designed from the ground up to rip the consumer off and leech as much money out of them as possible, which has been proven via how disgustingly low some of the drop rates are for the best characters etc and how much of an advantage those characters give over others, ergo gambling pay2win and a lot of people throwing stupid amounts of money away for something that will be replaced in a year or two when the next game comes along.

I'd argue those kinds of lootboxes are even worse than gambling in that regard since at least if you get lucky with gambling the cash prize is universal and could last you a lifetime.Blow 2 grand on Fifa and get that character you wanted, well that character only remains useful until the next game comes along which could be as little as a year away..It's disgusting that's even a thing in this industry but there we go.. some companies are just dispicable like that.

Anet however is not one of them, and that's one of the biggest reasons I will continue to be a loyal and devoted customer so long as Anet continues to be a fair company that treats us like customers and not a bank account to be raided.

Sure, BLCs aren't as "evil", but they're "evil" nonetheless and ArenaNet certainly knows it. Your arguments are also quite weak.

First and foremost, GW2 is a game that is heavily based on cosmetics. There's a reason why people talk about "cosmetic endgame" in GW2. Cosmetics are one of the major progression-systems in this game. Do you know which game made lootboxes popular in the first place? That was Overwatch and the lootbox-rewards there were purely cosmetic. Cosmetics do - at least to a certain degree - determine your social standing inside a gaming community. It always was like that. There are several cosmetic items exclusive to BLCs, one of the last major examples being the Starbound outfit. Some people - reportedly - had to spend high two-digit-numbers of keys to get that item. You won't get there just by doing your weekly key-run all the time. Previews and guaranteed items won't help either. People don't use their keys for the guaranteed items, they spend them because they want certain items - most likely exclusive outfits. If these were at least buyable with Statuettes: Ok, I guess? But they aren't.

Don't get me wrong: Arena Net is certainly one of the more favorable publishers in the MMORPG-market and I'm happy about that, but BLCs are still utter kitten regardless.

Cosmetics are hardly a progression system, if they do have any impact on your social standing inside a gaming community then that standing diminishes significantly when there's nothing between you and a cosmetic besides a gem purchase, RNG element involved or not.

I have the starbound Outfit myself so i'm not buying your example there as I got it after 2 keys and I didn't even want it in the first place.It's a pretty skimpy outfit imo.. far too revealing elements for my tastes, I'm not a fan of the whole Battle Bikini themed armour sets in MMO's and Starbound looks more at home in some kind of adult fantasy movie than it does in game like this.. it's weird and I wish I had the option to sell it in all honesty.Besides i've seen so many people running around with them they hardly feel rare or special to me, very little in Gw2 does because of the gemstore.

The weekly keyfarm is also a misconception, only 1 of the keys is locked behind a weekly timegate, the other two are farmable at any time as much as you want, and with birthday scrolls and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.At the very least a keyfarmer should be farming 3 keys a week rather than just 1, it doesn't take that long to run a character through the personal story to Battle at claw island with tomes etc, and if you're very dedicated you can farm those level 40/60 instances whenever you need keys.

If BLC's had things like Special outfits and mount skins that you couldn't ever get anywhere else but had the same kinds of drop rates as the perma bank express etc then i'd agree there was a problem, but as they are now they're very fair imo.

Unfortunately, your argument is not supported even by anecdotal data:

• gem exchange rates go significantly up every time BLC keys are on sale;
• gem exchange rates go up when BLC have items desired by a lot of players even if the keys are not on sale;
• price of chests on TP goes up every time their contents rotate, moreover the price hike is proportionate to the desirability of a special cosmetic item included in any given rotation;
• there are threads on both Reddit and official forums discussing the Starbound Outfit drop rates -> people do like it and want it.

A run of bad luck isn't enough to condemn the system though.I've gone after items in the chests many times and failed to get them while other times i've gotten them on my first key..I've seen countless players getting premium mount skins and saying in the chat they got it on their first few keys..Drop rates for these uncommon items are very fair for the most part and like I said, keys are farmable in game through the personal story if you're dedicated enough and as you also said gold to gem conversion is another option if you really want keys.You can also buy golden keys with statuettes after you save up enough which significantly improves your chances of getting an outfit.

You never have to spend money on Gw2 aside from when new expansion content comes out.. even the living world can be bought with in game gold.Sorry but I don't see how people can feel cheated by a RNG system like this when they don't have to pay anything into it, many choose to because it's faster and while I can understand the convinience it's still their choice to do so as it was mine many times in the past.

The best alternative would be to allow these items to be tradable on the gem store, I'd have been more than happy to put my outfit up for sale considering I don't like it and for some reason a lot of other people really want it.

I am sorry, I am a bit lost here. What are you arguing? Do you agree that BLC's are essentially gambling (a game of chance for money)?

I would be if they had extremely bad and unfair drop rates by design and the only way to obtain keys to open them was via a credit card.

But their drop rates are pretty fair imo and the ability to not only obtain keys in the game for free but also farm them in game for free completely diminishes the notion that these chests are gambling.You don't have to pay real world money to get their contents and skins etc.. you just have the option to choose to.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG.

So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box.

The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

I don't know about the thread, but the absurdity in the logical fallacy you wrote, is enough to turn a sane man insane.

[googel.3278]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG.

So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box.

The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

I don't know about the thread, but the absurdity in the logical fallacy you wrote, is enough to turn a sane man insane.

he is probably an anet employee, give in to that rng! waste your real money on pixels!

[Tukaram.8256]

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

Yes I do.

Kill mobs = get lootOpen black lion chest = get lootMob loot resell value = 0Blc contents resell value = 0Kill mobs/do story = black lion keygold to gems = black lion keyPay cash = black lion key

This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

Yeah, pretty much this. If one aspect is gambling, then the entire video game market is a casino. Calling a loot box gambling borders on insane.

Not seeing the link between loot boxes and gambling is what i would call insane. The lootboxes got you, hook,line and sinker. At least casinos have the human decency to not target children, because they aren't allowed to do so.I guess Belgium is just insane!

Nah, loot boxes don't have me. I would not spend real money for a random chance of pixels. On the very rare occasion I use the gem store it is for direct purchases. :)

[Erasculio.2914]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Mount Adoption Licenses still invoke the feeling of, "I'll get it cheaper." coupled with gambler's/sunk cost fallacy thinking. What it lacks is the open-ended nature of the BLC where a given desired item is not available via Statuette. With items that have a Statuette cost, the principle is the same -- there's a max cost for the desired item. However, the potential to gamble to get it for less is still there.

I agree. IMO, those would be considered loot boxes too (and so would be regulated like the BLC).

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Knife Tail? I had to look it up. I got one, have no idea how, but have not bought any. In looking it up, I see the wiki page has a notation about the item being unavailable in Belgium due to anti-gambling laws.

ArenaNet gave everyone one of those for free when they were introduced, that's probably how you got the one you own.

Nice, I didn't know they already were not available in Belgium. So they still count as gambling under ArenaNet's point of view.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:This again. Sadly ANet can't just lock these conversations without appearing to side on their own side. Because this is really a serious political conversation and should be blocked. This is something for reddit and not the forums. You can argue it's about gameplay but this just leads to should your government be involved and there are a lot of good meaning people that will be on both sides and will not agree. OP thanks for the article but from there, write your government with your thoughts on either side.

The report came out yesterday it is not old new. Uk citizens play this game. This game has lootboxes defined in this report. Should players in the uk be oblivious to having their gemstore removed of blacklion keys, mount licences, dye packs, or knife tail bonds in the coming months?

No, of course they should not be oblivious. They should be concerned about the possible ramifications of deciding to, potentially, exclude themselves from those in game elements.

The public safety announcement that they are thinking about taking an action is fine. Information should be shared, but when you start to get the fors and againsts then it just comes down to politics and we know people will get worked up from there. Hence the again bit. Good gaming to you.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:This again. Sadly ANet can't just lock these conversations without appearing to side on their own side. Because this is really a serious political conversation and should be blocked. This is something for reddit and not the forums. You can argue it's about gameplay but this just leads to should your government be involved and there are a lot of good meaning people that will be on both sides and will not agree. OP thanks for the article but from there, write your government with your thoughts on either side.

The report came out yesterday it is not old new. Uk citizens play this game. This game has lootboxes defined in this report. Should players in the uk be oblivious to having their gemstore removed of blacklion keys, mount licences, dye packs, or knife tail bonds in the coming months?Not going to happen. It's not Belgium, it's a much bigger market. The games will need to adjust this time, not simply pretend there's nothing going on and the country doesn't exist.

[Ol Nik.2518]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG. So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box. The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

Do you truly believe that random numbers generators (RNG) and Black Lion Chests are the same and share the exact same mechanics in the game?

Yes I do.

Kill mobs = get lootOpen black lion chest = get lootMob loot resell value = 0Blc contents resell value = 0Kill mobs/do story = black lion keygold to gems = black lion keyPay cash = black lion key

Is this the only way RNGs are used in the game?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:This is just a time save really which means you're paying for convenience with no value associated other than entertainment. When you buy it with cash you don't have to spend hours farming mobs hoping RNG drops a key. You don't have to spend hours farming for gold or flipping items on the tp to convert to gems to buy a key. You can just buy it with cash saving you time.

Would you agree that buying a key does not guarantee that a buyer will get a specific item from a BLC?How is that different from buying casino tokens?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:I've played since day one and flip items on tp and farm events and play the game. Never once needed to buy a black lion key with cash.

Would you agree that your experience is not necessarily reflective or representative of other players?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:All of the stuff in the black lion chest is cosmetic as well and doesnt grant a gameplay advantage, making this whole argument even more moot.

Would you agree that gambling is something that the majority of people do for fun and do not see as a source of income or a way to get ahead in life?

---

P.S. Not all items in BLC are pure cosmetics. Permanent contracts give a rather significant gameplay advantage, especially bank and TP access contracts (according to your own words, you flip items on TP, so you should understand the value of these contracts). Home instance nodes also provide gameplay advantage since they allow you to finish core Tyria gathering dailies faster and they guarantee daily materials inflow. Quality of life items (bank access, teleport to a friend, merchant, etc.) also grant a small gameplay advantage. The subjective value of these items is beyond the scope of this discussion.

[Ol Nik.2518]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I consider myself someone who utterly despises the concept of lootboxes but I find it hard to hold such a strong dislike for Gw2's black lion chests on account of several factors.

1. Keys can be earned in game via the personal story therefore eliminating entirely the need to pay cash for keys.
2. Black Lion chest contents can be previewed to show their contents and always guarantee items a player can use therefore eliminating the problem of wasted duplicates and going away empty handed.
3. There are no pay to win items, characters, skills or account upgrades in the chests that give a lucky player an advantage over an unlucky one.

Sure you can argue Black Lion Chests are technically "loot boxes" but you honestly can't compare them to the same malicious and predatory ripoffs that other companies have done in their name.

There is a massive difference between how Gw2 does lootboxes which are extremely fair and likely one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right in the entire industry.And how for example Fifa/Battlefront does lootboxes which are blatantly designed from the ground up to rip the consumer off and leech as much money out of them as possible, which has been proven via how disgustingly low some of the drop rates are for the best characters etc and how much of an advantage those characters give over others, ergo gambling pay2win and a lot of people throwing stupid amounts of money away for something that will be replaced in a year or two when the next game comes along.

I'd argue those kinds of lootboxes are even worse than gambling in that regard since at least if you get lucky with gambling the cash prize is universal and could last you a lifetime.Blow 2 grand on Fifa and get that character you wanted, well that character only remains useful until the next game comes along which could be as little as a year away..It's disgusting that's even a thing in this industry but there we go.. some companies are just dispicable like that.

Anet however is not one of them, and that's one of the biggest reasons I will continue to be a loyal and devoted customer so long as Anet continues to be a fair company that treats us like customers and not a bank account to be raided.

Sure, BLCs aren't as "evil", but they're "evil" nonetheless and ArenaNet certainly knows it. Your arguments are also quite weak.

First and foremost, GW2 is a game that is heavily based on cosmetics. There's a reason why people talk about "cosmetic endgame" in GW2. Cosmetics are one of the major progression-systems in this game. Do you know which game made lootboxes popular in the first place? That was Overwatch and the lootbox-rewards there were purely cosmetic. Cosmetics do - at least to a certain degree - determine your social standing inside a gaming community. It always was like that. There are several cosmetic items exclusive to BLCs, one of the last major examples being the Starbound outfit. Some people - reportedly - had to spend high two-digit-numbers of keys to get that item. You won't get there just by doing your weekly key-run all the time. Previews and guaranteed items won't help either. People don't use their keys for the guaranteed items, they spend them because they want certain items - most likely exclusive outfits. If these were at least buyable with Statuettes: Ok, I guess? But they aren't.

Don't get me wrong: Arena Net is certainly one of the more favorable publishers in the MMORPG-market and I'm happy about that, but BLCs are still utter kitten regardless.

Cosmetics are hardly a progression system, if they do have any impact on your social standing inside a gaming community then that standing diminishes significantly when there's nothing between you and a cosmetic besides a gem purchase, RNG element involved or not.

I have the starbound Outfit myself so i'm not buying your example there as I got it after 2 keys and I didn't even want it in the first place.It's a pretty skimpy outfit imo.. far too revealing elements for my tastes, I'm not a fan of the whole Battle Bikini themed armour sets in MMO's and Starbound looks more at home in some kind of adult fantasy movie than it does in game like this.. it's weird and I wish I had the option to sell it in all honesty.Besides i've seen so many people running around with them they hardly feel rare or special to me, very little in Gw2 does because of the gemstore.

The weekly keyfarm is also a misconception, only 1 of the keys is locked behind a weekly timegate, the other two are farmable at any time as much as you want, and with birthday scrolls and tomes of knowledge it's very easy to horde enough of them for farming a stockpile of keys.At the very least a keyfarmer should be farming 3 keys a week rather than just 1, it doesn't take that long to run a character through the personal story to Battle at claw island with tomes etc, and if you're very dedicated you can farm those level 40/60 instances whenever you need keys.

If BLC's had things like Special outfits and mount skins that you couldn't ever get anywhere else but had the same kinds of drop rates as the perma bank express etc then i'd agree there was a problem, but as they are now they're very fair imo.

Unfortunately, your argument is not supported even by anecdotal data:

• gem exchange rates go significantly up every time BLC keys are on sale;
• gem exchange rates go up when BLC have items desired by a lot of players even if the keys are not on sale;
• price of chests on TP goes up every time their contents rotate, moreover the price hike is proportionate to the desirability of a special cosmetic item included in any given rotation;
• there are threads on both Reddit and official forums discussing the Starbound Outfit drop rates -> people do like it and want it.

A run of bad luck isn't enough to condemn the system though.I've gone after items in the chests many times and failed to get them while other times i've gotten them on my first key..I've seen countless players getting premium mount skins and saying in the chat they got it on their first few keys..Drop rates for these uncommon items are very fair for the most part and like I said, keys are farmable in game through the personal story if you're dedicated enough and as you also said gold to gem conversion is another option if you really want keys.You can also buy golden keys with statuettes after you save up enough which significantly improves your chances of getting an outfit.

You never have to spend money on Gw2 aside from when new expansion content comes out.. even the living world can be bought with in game gold.Sorry but I don't see how people can feel cheated by a RNG system like this when they don't have to pay anything into it, many choose to because it's faster and while I can understand the convinience it's still their choice to do so as it was mine many times in the past.

The best alternative would be to allow these items to be tradable on the gem store, I'd have been more than happy to put my outfit up for sale considering I don't like it and for some reason a lot of other people really want it.

I am sorry, I am a bit lost here. What are you arguing? Do you agree that BLC's are essentially gambling (a game of chance for money)?

I would be if they had extremely bad and unfair drop rates by design and the only way to obtain keys to open them was via a credit card.

But their drop rates are pretty fair imo and the ability to not only obtain keys in the game for free but also farm them in game for free completely diminishes the notion that these chests are gambling.You don't have to pay real world money to get their contents and skins etc.. you just have the option to choose to.

Would you agree that a game of dice is not gambling if we use two 3-sided dice (which gives us 1/9 probability for each possible combination, way higher than BLC drop rates for rare cosmetics) and place bets using seashells that we can collect right on the spot?Please consider that the very same shells can be used to obtain favours or goods from the players of the game.

[yann.1946]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG.

So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box.

The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

I don't know about the thread, but the absurdity in the logical fallacy you wrote, is enough to turn a sane man insane.

To be fair, depending on how gambling in video games is defined, in combination with the gem to gold exchange some pure gold gambles could be considered 18+.

Now I am aware that that sounds like a far stretch but ask yourself.

Would you consider ectogambling a lootbox.Do you consider opening unid gear as a lootbox?

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@yann.1946 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG.

So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box.

The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

I don't know about the thread, but the absurdity in the logical fallacy you wrote, is enough to turn a sane man insane.

To be fair, depending on how gambling in video games is defined, in combination with the gem to gold exchange some pure gold gambles could be considered 18+.

Now I am aware that that sounds like a far stretch but ask yourself.

Would you consider ectogambling a lootbox.Do you consider opening unid gear as a lootbox?

No, those are purely in-game activities. I understand that, therotically, gold aquired through exchanging gems could be used. But gold is the main in game currency and could be used for a billion other things. There is no intentional design, specifically tailored to squeeze RL money through that activity.

On the other hand, keys exist purely for that purpose.You buy them from a cash store for the sole purpose of opening lootboxes. With a whole monetization strategy around them (cooler skins, exclusives etc). Same for mount licences.

[yann.1946]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG.

So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box.

The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

I don't know about the thread, but the absurdity in the logical fallacy you wrote, is enough to turn a sane man insane.

To be fair, depending on how gambling in video games is defined, in combination with the gem to gold exchange some pure gold gambles could be considered 18+.

Now I am aware that that sounds like a far stretch but ask yourself.

Would you consider ectogambling a lootbox.Do you consider opening unid gear as a lootbox?

No, those are purely in-game activities. I understand that, therotically, gold aquired through exchanging gems could be used. But gold is the main in game currency and could be used for a billion other things. There is no intentional design, specifically tailored to squeeze RL money through that activity.

On the other hand, keys exist purely for that purpose.You buy them from a cash store for the sole purpose of opening lootboxes. With a whole monetization strategy around them (cooler skins, exclusives etc). Same for mount licences.

Well I've heard some people put ectogambling with the problematic gambling practices.

My only point was though that the debate should be had why some rng things are allowed and others not. How do we set the bounds etc.

I don't really have faith that it will be done well.

BTW I do agree regulations should be their. I just don't agree that the implications of the gem to gold exchange should be. Overlooked.

This works both ways btw. You can get it without spending money should not be a defense.

[Dalec.9853]

I honestly cannot believe there are some attempts at defending BLC, even trying to say they are "harmless" or some form of 'not like the others', there is absolutely no benefit to the player when you would almost always end up spending more than the appropriate normal gem cost (E.g. an outfit being 700 gems vs the most likely scenario of spending far more gems on BLC for an outfit drop) - you have to be very lucky to do better than the standard/non-gambling gem price of items

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Dalec.9853" said:I honestly cannot believe there are some attempts at defending BLC, even trying to say they are "harmless" or some form of 'not like the others'It's a huge business. When there's a ton of money involved, you will see some very extensive lobbying, and you will see the interested parties trying to persuade everyone that not only there's nothing wrong involved, but (ideally), that supporting those practices is "supporting the personal freedoms" or something like that. When you keep hearing that over and over again from many sources, some people will eventually buy that. And of course some voices would not be players, but an active, hidden lobbying (although i wouldn't expect that on GW2 forum - we're not big enough for that).

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@yann.1946 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Tukaram.8256 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should I be confined to a playpen all for the sake of children which I have no interest in?

Maybe you should not play games for children if you do not want to follow rules for children. It is an easy solution.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Why should my enjoyment be impacted when a parents job is to supervise their kid?It is, indeed, a parents' job to supervise their children. Some parents do it by enacting certain laws protecting their children. Are arguing that those parents do not do their job? Or are you trying to say that you want to play a game for children but are not willing to follow the rules?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The game is rated 13+ btw.Recent neuroscience shows that the frontal lobe (a region of the brain responsible for decision making among other things) is not fully formed at this age. Moreover, there is interesting research suggesting that in males the development of this region continues until the age of 25. Scientists and parents start to talk about revising age categories and permissions based on this data. Especially considering that addictive behaviours tend to become life-long problems if formed during the frontal lobe development phase.

I completely agree that 13+ is not an appropriate age rating. Perhaps it would be a better child supervision job if any game that has gambling were rated 25+.

Well then you should exclude any game that has rng in it because technically all of that is a gamble. Everything should have 0 rng if it's so destructive because all gambling is rng.

25+ lol? You really think playing gw2 with rng requires more responsibility then smoking, drinking and joining the military?

Yeah, this entire thread, and the concept, is asinine. Everything in games run on a RNG.

So if you pay a subscription fee, and kill a monster for loot, that is essentially the same as a loot box.

The insanity shown in this thread would be comical if I did not think they were serious. To say buying pixels is gambling, is quite ridiculous.

I don't know about the thread, but the absurdity in the logical fallacy you wrote, is enough to turn a sane man insane.

To be fair, depending on how gambling in video games is defined, in combination with the gem to gold exchange some pure gold gambles could be considered 18+.

Now I am aware that that sounds like a far stretch but ask yourself.

Would you consider ectogambling a lootbox.Do you consider opening unid gear as a lootbox?

No, those are purely in-game activities. I understand that, therotically, gold aquired through exchanging gems could be used. But gold is the main in game currency and could be used for a billion other things. There is no intentional design, specifically tailored to squeeze RL money through that activity.

On the other hand, keys exist purely for that purpose.You buy them from a cash store for the sole purpose of opening lootboxes. With a whole monetization strategy around them (cooler skins, exclusives etc). Same for mount licences.

Well I've heard some people put ectogambling with the problematic gambling practices.

My only point was though that the debate should be had why some rng things are allowed and others not. How do we set the bounds etc.

I don't really have faith that it will be done well.

BTW I do agree regulations should be their. I just don't agree that the implications of the gem to gold exchange should be. Overlooked.

This works both ways btw. You can get it without spending money should not be a defense.

I don't disagree that ectogambling is problematic because of the exchange but it's nowhere near the extent of gem store items. And I cant ever see any regulation going that far in depth, they will just focus on the obvious (and main moneymakers).

I think Anet hasn't pulled ectogambling in Belgium. I'm not sure it's even possible as it's in-game, not a gem store item to be region locked.

[Trinnitty.8256]

gaming companies need to make content the satisfaction you get from playing, not to what amounts to winning the lottery for an item. Even trying for a special item inside a loot box isn't isn't 'fairness' towards all players because of rng. One player gets an item on 1 try another could take 50 times the amount.

Not to mention google play and app stores need to start clarifying what in app purchases mean.