UK Officials Say Loot Boxes Are Gambling

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:% chance at getting something from each section would be a start, because atm its clear the super rare is around 0.0001% or less.

Gambling aside, that's fine, there should be a super rare group. Even if we could only get keys by in game activities that should stand. You need things of value in the loot tables to balance all the junk that is out there.

[TheGrimm.5624]

So does the UK proposal define gambling? Does it include being able to make real money from the activity or just buying something that has a random result?

[Astralporing.1957]

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:So does the UK proposal define gambling? Does it include being able to make real money from the activity or just buying something that has a random result?It's a proposal for an extension of the law - it comes with suggestions about the goals that it is meant to achieve, the methods would be up to lawmakers. They are not submitting a law to be voted on, they suggest that the government should do something about it.An example:"The Government should bring forward regulations under section 6 of the Gambling Act 2005 in the next parliamentary session to specify that loot boxes are a game of chance. If it determines not to regulate loot boxes under the Act at this time, the Government should produce a paper clearly stating the reasons why it does not consider loot boxes paid for with real-world currency to be a game of chance played for money's worth."and"Loot boxes are particularly lucrative for games companies but come at a high cost, particularly for problem gamblers, while exposing children to potential harm. Buying a loot box is playing a game of chance and it is high time the gambling laws caught up. We challenge the Government to explain why loot boxes should be exempt from the Gambling Act."

But to answer your second question - no, the proposal does not include the buyer being able to make real money from the activity. All that is necessary is for the lootboxes being a source of revenue for the seller.

That aside, notice, that there were other, less talked parts of that report. One of them is a suggestion that an improvement in age verification tools is also necessary.

Legislation may be needed to protect children from playing games that are not appropriate for their age. The Report identifies inconsistencies in ‘age-ratings’ stemming from the games industry's self-regulation around the distribution of games. For example, online games are not subject to a legally enforceable age-rating system and voluntary ratings are used instead.Games companies should not assume that the responsibility to enforce age-ratings applies exclusively to the main delivery platforms: all companies and platforms that are making games available online should uphold the highest standards of enforcing age-ratings.I find that part to be very interesting in itself.

Also, some very unoficial leaks claim, that quite a number of MPs are especially pushing for regulations, because during the investigation phase they felt that the major game developers' representatives were misleading to them at best, and outright lying at worst.

Edit: not so unofficial, it seems. :

MPs found it difficult to get full and clear answers, expressing disappointment at the way some representatives engaged with the inquiry, particularly in acknowledging what data is collected, how it is used and the psychological underpinning of how products are designed. Representatives from the games industry were found to be wilfully obtuse in answering questions about typical patterns of play, considered essential information in better understanding of engagement with gaming.

Some games and social media company representatives were found to have “demonstrated a lack of honesty and transparency” in giving evidence, with the Report questioning what companies had to hide.

That kind of speech means they were really kittened off at some of those representatives, at the very least.

Of course, with Brexit around, who knows what's going to happen.

[otto.5684]

Well.. loot boxes are gambling.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

@"NaramSin.2693" said:Well strictly speaking it's not "gambling" they are not even "random" all the BL stuff are pseudo-random in the best case, completely under the control of ANet in the worst case, Just watch some streamer opening 10000 chest and never (never) getting a single infusion, so the RNG distribution it's not even exponential.So talking about gambling seems really strange...

The distinction between random and pseudorandom isn't made in the UK's legal definition of gambling. If it was then online casinos wouldn't count as gambling since their outcomes are pseudorandom rather than truly random - I think, regardless of their views on lootboxes, most people would agree that any legal definition of gambling should include online casinos. In fact, the UK definition uses the word 'chance' and doesn't mention randomness at all.

To me personally, insisting that gambling must involve true randomness seems really strange - but presumably you have some reasoning behind that?

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:So does the UK proposal define gambling? Does it include being able to make real money from the activity or just buying something that has a random result?

Looking at the current UK legal definition (which you can do here), gambling doesn't seem to have to involve real money at all. Gambling includes gaming, which is defined as "playing a game of chance for a prize". It goes on to say that prize "means money or money's worth", and according to this gambling commission discussion paper, that includes virtual currency and (at least some types of) in-game items.

Having read this, I don't actually know why lootboxes aren't already classified as gambling under UK law. Is it because you always get something from them? Or because opening one doesn't count as a "game"? Or some other reason?

[Ol Nik.2518]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

[Ol Nik.2518]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Ok I Did It.2854 said:% chance at getting something from each section would be a start, because atm its clear the super rare is around 0.0001% or less.

Gambling aside, that's fine, there should be a super rare group. Even if we could only get keys by in game activities that should stand. You need things of value in the loot tables to balance all the junk that is out there.

There are other ways to make something valuable. Low drop rates are far from the only possible answer.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:So does the UK proposal define gambling? Does it include being able to make real money from the activity or just buying something that has a random result?It's a proposal for an extension of the law - it comes with suggestions about the

goals

that it is meant to achieve, the methods would be up to lawmakers. They are not submitting a law to be voted on, they suggest that the

government

should do something about it.An example:"The Government should bring forward regulations under section 6 of the Gambling Act 2005 in the next parliamentary session to specify that loot boxes are a game of chance. If it determines not to regulate loot boxes under the Act at this time, the Government should produce a paper clearly stating the reasons why it does not consider loot boxes paid for with real-world currency to be a game of chance played for money's worth."and"Loot boxes are particularly lucrative for games companies but come at a high cost, particularly for problem gamblers, while exposing children to potential harm. Buying a loot box is playing a game of chance and it is high time the gambling laws caught up. We challenge the Government to explain why loot boxes should be exempt from the Gambling Act."

But to answer your second question - no, the proposal does not include the buyer being able to make real money from the activity. All that is necessary is for the lootboxes being a source of revenue for the seller.

That aside, notice, that there were other, less talked parts of that report. One of them is a suggestion that an improvement in age verification tools is also necessary.

Thanks, I hadn't seen the actual wording and was wondering. Appreciate it.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos (independant of rng, lootboxes and "gambling") Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder: https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

And what are you implying wow WHO made a study that shows gaming can be bad. If you think gaming is this dangerous why do you play it? This is ridiculous. Sorry videogames are one of the most benign activities a person can do in life and you want regulations, warnings and restrictions on it , give me a break.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

Yes, if it involves children, then yes: being overprotective especially in such a case is advisable. I'm sorry that not all of us grew up with dinosaurs and had to slug through feet deep snow while walking to our watering hole.

and you know food is dangerous how? Have you tried all food available to you? You rely on outside information (or personal epxerience) to make these deductions. Now if youa re to young and intentionally manipulated that you can't make such observations and conclusions until it is to late, what about then?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:And what are you implying wow WHO made a study that shows gaming can be bad. If you think gaming is this dangerous why do you play it? This is ridiculous. Sorry videogames are one of the most benign activities a person can do in life and you want regulations, warnings and restrictions on it , give me a break.

Yes, except when it doesn't and when people start procrastinating excessively. Your personal opinion and experience is of no value when predominatnt studies of thousands of individuals suggest otherwise. You are the anecdotal evidence, the actual evidence is which is of significance though.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

Research into how the brain is affected suggests otherwise. You are willfully misinformed. You either lack even basic understanding of how drugs and our brain works, or you are willfully misrepesenting these issues. No one is denying that there is difference of severity in addiction. But to put addiction off as ONLY being produced by XYZ is ludicrously idiotic.

You were laughing at other posters in this thread about their simplicty, yet you paint a way worse picture of yourself here.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

Yes, if it involves children, then yes: being overprotective especially in such a case is advisable. I'm sorry that not all of us grew up with dinosaurs and had to slug through feet deep snow while walking to our watering hole.

and you know food is dangerous how? Have you tried all food available to you? You rely on outside information (or personal epxerience) to make these deductions. Now if youa re to young and intentionally manipulated that you can't make such observations and conclusions until it is to late, what about then?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:And what are you implying wow WHO made a study that shows gaming can be bad. If you think gaming is this dangerous why do you play it? This is ridiculous. Sorry videogames are one of the most benign activities a person can do in life and you want regulations, warnings and restrictions on it , give me a break.

Yes, except when it doesn't and when people start procrastinating excessively. Your personal opinion and experience is of no value when predominatnt studies of thousands of individuals suggest otherwise. You are the anecdotal evidence, the actual evidence is which is of significance though.

Sorry sounds like parents just dont watch their kids, which is there jobs. if parents are so worried about vice they should monitor them 24/7 or dont but any games. Keep them locked away indoors and censor everything from them. Sounds like a good recipe.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

Yes, if it involves children, then yes: being overprotective especially in such a case is advisable. I'm sorry that not all of us grew up with dinosaurs and had to slug through feet deep snow while walking to our watering hole.

and you know food is dangerous how? Have you tried all food available to you? You rely on outside information (or personal epxerience) to make these deductions. Now if youa re to young and intentionally manipulated that you can't make such observations and conclusions until it is to late, what about then?

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:And what are you implying wow WHO made a study that shows gaming can be bad. If you think gaming is this dangerous why do you play it? This is ridiculous. Sorry videogames are one of the most benign activities a person can do in life and you want regulations, warnings and restrictions on it , give me a break.

Yes, except when it doesn't and when people start procrastinating excessively. Your personal opinion and experience is of no value when predominatnt studies of thousands of individuals suggest otherwise. You are the anecdotal evidence, the actual evidence is which is of significance though.

Sorry sounds like parents just dont watch their kids, which is there jobs. if parents are so worried about vice they should monitor them 24/7 or dont but any games. Keep them locked away indoors and censor everything from them. Sounds like a good recipe.

Yes, we have covered that. You have no kids or interaction with any, we know.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

Research into how the brain is affected suggests otherwise. You are willfully misinformed. You either lack even basic understanding of how drugs and our brain works, or you are willfully misrepesenting these issues. No one is denying that there is difference of severity in addiction. But to put addiction off as ONLY being produced by XYZ is ludicrously idiotic.

Haha same argument I've seen over and over "research shows" it's all bs, sorry, I should know I'm a psychologist. You can make data and statistics prove anything. Parents need to watch their kids, I'm 100% convinced this is a religious moral argument about gambling and vice rather then based on sound logic.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

Ah. Interesting. So let me borrow phrases from a couple of your posts above.

You are the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn? It's like you pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Try to stick by what you preach please.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

Ah. Interesting. So let me borrow a phrase from a post of yours above.

You are the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn? It's like you pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Try to stick by what you preach please.

I think it should be unregulated thanks. Especially for something as benign as pixels that have no value and parents that cannot say no to kids? How do the kids even get the money for this and their "addiction" in the first place? Oh I know let's just ignore that..... I know let's regulate it for everyone or just ban it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

Research into how the brain is affected suggests otherwise. You are willfully misinformed. You either lack even basic understanding of how drugs and our brain works, or you are willfully misrepesenting these issues. No one is denying that there is difference of severity in addiction. But to put addiction off as ONLY being produced by XYZ is ludicrously idiotic.

Haha same argument I've seen over and over "research shows" it's all bs, sorry, I should know I'm a psychologist. You can make data and statistics prove anything. Parents need to watch their kids, I'm 100% convinced this is a religious moral argument about gambling and vice rather then based on sound logic.

Yes, I'm sure you are. Just like I'm a NASA astronaut.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

Research into how the brain is affected suggests otherwise. You are willfully misinformed. You either lack even basic understanding of how drugs and our brain works, or you are willfully misrepesenting these issues. No one is denying that there is difference of severity in addiction. But to put addiction off as ONLY being produced by XYZ is ludicrously idiotic.

Haha same argument I've seen over and over "research shows" it's all bs, sorry, I should know I'm a psychologist. You can make data and statistics prove anything. Parents need to watch their kids, I'm 100% convinced this is a religious moral argument about gambling and vice rather then based on sound logic.

Yes, I'm sure you are. Just like I'm a NASA astraunaut.

I actually am but whatever lol. You're just bent on passing religious morals onto everyone like censor everyting, free expression, art, entertainment because it doesnt fit your narrative and then (insert bogus statistic or study) and (use the children card).

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Ol Nik.2518 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

Crossing the street is risky and contains elements of rng, it's also addictive in that people have a desire to get to the other side, repeatedly. Through mental conditioning people are lulled into a false sense of security for an activity that can be dangerous. Crossing the street has clearly become compulsive as people feel compelled to reach the other side and yet they engage in risky street crossing behavior despite the scientifically proven detrimental outcomes of this activity. Pretty much the same statement and argument you said.

Nuclear submarines move in seawater.I can move in seawater.Therefore I am a nuclear submarine.

I suggest you read a bit on logical fallacies and how to avoid them for a proper debate. It would surely help to construct a proper argument instead of whatever this is.

They constantly use a classic straw man argument. In my opinion, it is useless to appeal to logic in this case.Unfortunately, the very same tactic is used by lobbyists to prevent better regulation. I suspect that the game industry will use exactly the same strategy as Big Tobacco to keep the existing status quo for as long as possible.

So how does that work, rng gambling from killing mobs is ok because you say so. But buying keys which also drop from mobs to open a chest that has random loot is not ok. Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Stop bringing up this nonsense strawman.

The mob you kill does not change depending on your player behavior. It does not get altered to fit certain molds and exploit certain patterns. If you could pay to get the mob loot and then pay for 10,000 mob loot at once, then it would be comaprable. Killing a mob requires actual interaction with the game (which is limited by time automatically). Spending money from your bank account to interact with game elements which were specifically designed to encourage you to spend money on them is a near instant process which can get expanded upon significantly (both due to limited use of time as well as built in scalability).

Also this has been pointed out multiple times by now, GW2 lootboxes and mechanics are among the most industry harmless. This legislation is not made due to Arenanet or GW2. The main driving reasons are way more predatory publishers and mechanics.

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Lol and you're the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn?

Right now, you are basically the person who is going: alcohol should not be restriced to any one. People who misuse it or have no control over themselves are at their own fault. Alcohol addiction is of no consequence and minors, who have no concept of what alcohol is, need no protection of it.

That's literally you on this issue if your arguments were transfered to regulation of liquor.

Tha fact that UK MPs specifically mentioned that the gaming industry was basically dodging a proper inquery should have all types of red flags pop up as consumer.

To actually address your issue with rng from mobs though: yes, that too is an issue, but this one falls in the sphere of gaming addiction. Something which also is seeing more and more research in the last few years.

Gaming addiction? All games are addictive and yet there are 0 warnings or regulations on hours played or the fact that they can be addictive, especially with mmos. Lol it's like you guys just pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The fact that legislation is lacking in one area does not justify it's lack in another area. I already pointed out that there is research being done into gaming addiction. The WHO has even officially defined gaming disorder:

https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

So again, you are strawmaning.

That's how precedence works. And I dont need any warnings that are that obvious like driving is dangerous eating food could be risky. It's like you guys want hand holding for every aspect of life because were all too naive to take responsibility for anything and we need rules and regulations of everything, in order to know how to do the most basic functions of life.

By your logic, things like alcohol, physical gambling, drugs should be eligible for minors too. The dangers from these are obvious too. Those regulations are "hand-holding" too.

Can you please go on record on your opinion on this? I'm really interested in seeing it.

Sorry gambling on pixels isnt on par with alchohol guns or drugs lol, not even close. Its about on par with say going to disneyland paying admission to go in, and then going into one of the stores, seeing something you like and then, crying murder because they overcharge for their products or its "predatory because they prey on children's expectations or desires" yet no laws for that nor is there a need its just capitalism. Maybe parents should learn to say no.

Ah. Interesting. So let me borrow a phrase from a post of yours above.

You are the sole decider of morality and where the line is drawn? It's like you pick and choose what to be offended by with 0 logic.

Try to stick by what you preach please.

I think it should be unregulated thanks. Especially for something as benign as pixels that have no value and parents that cannot say no to kids? How do the kids even get the money for this and their "addiction" in the first place? Oh I know let's just ignore that..... I know let's regulate it for everyone or just ban it.

How would kids get money to buy alcohol or drugs? You keep digging it deeper.