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KP system is why raids are dead ( I use fake LI/KP now)


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The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

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Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance. If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out. Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid. It took me so long to find my first dhuum group and we ended up killing it in 3 tries ( 2 fails because of green that has died). Getting into raids shouldnt be harder than the actual raid itself, its why they need to increase difficulty and get rid of KP system. Instead KP there needs to be an IQ or skill check with harder boss mechanics.

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elitism comes from people like you. Just started doing Raids, have killed boss couple of times but act like you invented wheel. Who really gives 2 crap about you can do better than someone else. There will be always someone better than then next better player.Once you kill boss over 100 times, you will know what I mean. I will just leave it at that.Gotta remember, this is still a only game we are talking about.On side note I agree that KP barrier is harder than boss itself. Also, I disagree that making content harder will solve problem. As you see plenty of time, People run W1 or W4 with no kp check but any CMs and almost all last boss of any wings, people ask for KP coz they are harder.

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@Skyronight.6370 said:But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance. If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out. Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid. It took me so long to find my first dhuum group and we ended up killing it in 3 tries ( 2 fails because of green that has died). Getting into raids shouldnt be harder than the actual raid itself, its why they need to increase difficulty and get rid of KP system. Instead KP there needs to be an IQ or skill check with harder boss mechanics.

The KP check is there for a reason because in the past people were using bs requirements like AP. Elitism was more dominant in vanilla GW2 during dungeon peak time. People always were and still are trying to find some sort of common denominator to ensure to get competent players into their group. The KP requirement is absorbing the hard way you have to go instead. Without KPs good players would have to search & kick a lot of folks and that would simply prolonge the whole thing in getting a boss killed. All that is the result of the very split player base in GW2 and with a majority that doesn't even know the skills of their classes. With such players you would definitely have 0 success in raids at all but they would join your groups - at least they did in the past and are still doing so in my fractal groups with requirements!Of course it's not a super easy thing to get into raiding for a competent player but with some practice runs and effort you'll get your kills and from that on KPs here and there. A gentle plea to a commander who insists in many KPs can help to get an invite for a try. Lots of them will take you with them and if you can carry your weight nobody will say anything.I'm very happy that the KP thing exists. It spared me a lot of time to get a decent team together. Sure, raiders have requested a better system from the start but Arenanet hasn't delivered here so they needed to take the best thing they could get.Additionally your thought of making raid bosses harder would only decimate the already weakened raiding community. You would even need more super competent players to get things done and I'm more than sure this would kill raids, at least pug raiding.

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@Skyronight.6370 said:But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance.

If there are no KP the we'd have AP requirements or pinging of legendary armor itself before you can join a Raid team. The real barrier is not being able to join Raiding guilds/teams from within the game and having to do google searches for it. Imagine if this was done from inside the game, from a Guild Browser for example. That's the real barrier for Raids, and keep pugging as a way to fill static teams when they are missing people.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Skyronight.6370 said:But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance.

If there are no KP the we'd have AP requirements or pinging of legendary armor itself before you can join a Raid team. The real barrier is not being able to join Raiding guilds/teams from within the game and having to do google searches for it. Imagine if this was done from inside the game, from a Guild Browser for example. That's the real barrier for Raids, and keep pugging as a way to fill static teams when they are missing people.

what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

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@Skyronight.6370 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance.And the KP requirement comes from difficulty. If raids were easier, you would see requirements far less than before. Some players would still require some (because there are players that always do so), but there would be many groups without them (or with requirements that are easier to fulfill).

Notice, that the requirements are just some way of players in a group saying "we want only players that are skilled enough that we won't wipe". Make the content harder, and the reason behind them saying so will get only stronger, not weaker.

If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out.

And then you wipe, kick that player out, get new one, and you still don't know whether the new one is any better? Most people would rather make sure in any way possible that the group is good enough the first time they attempt the boss.

Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid. It took me so long to find my first dhuum group and we ended up killing it in 3 tries ( 2 fails because of green that has died). Getting into raids shouldnt be harder than the actual raid itself, its why they need to increase difficulty and get rid of KP system. Instead KP there needs to be an IQ or skill check with harder boss mechanics.KP is the closest way the group has to do that "IQ or skill check". It's way from perfect, but it's still the best tool available short of attempting the kill (and risking a wipe, which noone wants).

In the example you brough up? I am pretty sure the group would not have wanted to check that green runner in an actual fight, and have hoped for someone that would do their job without dying. For many pugs it's not "it took us only 3 tries to kill". It's "man, we wiped TWO TIMES on it".

As someone mentioned, after you will have a ton of succesful full clears behind you, you will understand what people are saying.

TL/DR;No, making things harder will cause the exactly opposite reaction to what you want to achieve.

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@Skyronight.6370 said:

@Skyronight.6370 said:what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

Take a look at this post:

I was talking about experienced groups not training, is there an lfg for that?

No, either your are looking into the forums - there are lots of guild offers for raiding among all the others - or you try map chat in Lions Arch or you try to find experienced groups via those training discords. There are several progressive channels I think. All those have the hidden agenda to form/represent a static group in which you get through a full clear or at least most of the wings on a single evening. Raids were advertised as "organized challenging group content" and therefore it's far advantageous to have at least a tiny permanent staff with members being able to play different roles. In the end it's also faster to just look for 1-3 people in the raid lfg - mostly filling easy roles - than to open an own squad alone and search 9 players for a full clear. Both is working but the latter is much more time consuming.

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@"Skyronight.6370" said:Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.In this group that you refer to as "new players", what percentage of them are "talented"?The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.It is good that you are doing so well this early, but the pug group you want to join does not know that. They do not know you. That is why they ask that you provide them with proof that you have beaten Dhuum many times, since once or twice could have been you getting lucky. Of course the system is not perfect, one could even argue that it is not even good, but it has established itself as the standard, so there is a decent chance that it is the best option available.

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@Skyronight.6370 said:

@Skyronight.6370 said:what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

Take a look at this post:

I was talking about experienced groups not training, is there an lfg for that?

You join a guild for that, and my suggestion about the guild browser would make joining a guild for raids easier.

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well i think it's good that people are specific in LFG and state what constitutes as enough X tokens for themcuz some people are afraid of asking or w/e and the requirement lists in lfg usually aren't super high or anything

and agreed yeah of course it's arbitrary, and it can be super slow to get raid for the in-between stage of "knows mechanics, has gotten a few kills, maybe not enough kp" if you dont fake it

but yeah i think it's good a system where there is kp requirement exists and also a way to circumvent around it (codes)

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@"Skyronight.6370" said:The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

If its not KP its something Else, like voice in the void title.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@"Skyronight.6370" said:The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

If its not KP its something Else, like voice in the void title.

title dosent mean anything its only 1 kill, its even worse than asking for kp, any pve player can buy ViTv from raid selling guild.

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@Skyronight.6370 said:

@Skyronight.6370 said:The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

If its not KP its something Else, like voice in the void title.

title dosent mean anything its only 1 kill, its even worse than asking for kp, any pve player can buy ViTv from raid selling guild.

Sure they can. But title is already used alot as KP. It cost around1000 gold to buy all w5 achievements (2 CM kills and some other stuff) that you need for title. If its not enough you can always ask title and Legendary armor, or multiple titles?Also buying a title is alot harder than copy paste a fake KP that players are already doing.

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I does not care me if raids are flourishing or dying.

I don't like to play them as long as:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time,

is the dominating attitude in raids.

I hate these leavers on fail and these avoid failure parties. This most reward per time attitude.

The only good thing of raids is that they help to keep them away from the rest of the game.

Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

If you life your achiever-mentality in work, and relax in gaming, that's not only more rewarding, but also healthier, for you and your neighborhood ;)

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@"Dayra.7405" said:Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

You are free to enjoy the game however you want.

Do realize though that for some players, killing a raid boss for the 100th (yes, most veteran raiders gave over 100 kills on many raid bosses, that's kills not attempts) time is more a "get it done as smooth and fast as possible" challenge.

When those players want to help out, as many do, they join or run training runs of varying degrees.

I'm sorry that warching unqiue snowflake new raider 10,785 fail basic mechanic 344 for the 6th time is not interesting to most veterans. We've seen it often enough thank you. That's exaxtly why you have veterans help out in trainings, to be able to address issues and problems at the right moment and the right time.

If you just want to leech the kills, pay one of the raid selling guilds.

Or better yet, improve far enough to be able to carry and support others, then devote your time to training them as you are suggesting. Live by what you preach.

Unfotunately, from my personal experience, the players who most often want others to be patient with them or want others to help them, are often the last to help out once they've advanced far enough. I'm sure there could be some links made with selfishness and so on, but I won't go that far here.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

You are free to enjoy the game however you want.

Do realize though that for some players, killing a raid boss for the 100th (yes, most veteran raiders gave over 100 kills on many raid bosses, that's kills not attempts) time is more a "get it done as smooth and fast as possible" challenge.

When those players want to help out, as many do, they join or run training runs of varying degrees.

I'm sorry that warching unqiue snowflake new raider 10,785 fail basic mechanic 344 for the 6th time is not interesting to most veterans. We've seen it often enough thank you. That's exaxtly why you have veterans help out in trainings, to be able to address issues and problems at the right moment and the right time.

If you just want to leech the kills, pay one of the raid selling guilds.

Or better yet, improve far enough to be able to carry and support others, then devote your time to training them as you are suggesting. Live by what you preach.

Unfotunately, from my personal experience, the players who most often want others to be patient with them or want others to help them, are often the last to help out once they've advanced far enough. I'm sure there could be some links made with selfishness and so on, but I won't go that far here.

Many unjustified assumptions in your text. Just to address two:

  • I can hardly leach in raids by not participating in them.
  • I try (with some success) to explain fractal mechanics when they seem to be unknown, i.e. I life it :)
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@Dayra.7405 said:

@Dayra.7405 said:Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

You are free to enjoy the game however you want.

Do realize though that for some players, killing a raid boss for the 100th (yes, most veteran raiders gave over 100 kills on many raid bosses, that's kills not attempts) time is more a "get it done as smooth and fast as possible" challenge.

When those players want to help out, as many do, they join or run training runs of varying degrees.

I'm sorry that warching unqiue snowflake new raider 10,785 fail basic mechanic 344 for the 6th time is not interesting to most veterans. We've seen it often enough thank you. That's exaxtly why you have veterans help out in trainings, to be able to address issues and problems at the right moment and the right time.

If you just want to leech the kills, pay one of the raid selling guilds.

Or better yet, improve far enough to be able to carry and support others, then devote your time to training them as you are suggesting. Live by what you preach.

Unfotunately, from my personal experience, the players who most often want others to be patient with them or want others to help them, are often the last to help out once they've advanced far enough. I'm sure there could be some links made with selfishness and so on, but I won't go that far here.

Many unjustified assumptions in your text. Just to address two:
  • I can hardly leach in raids by not participating in them.
  • I try (with some success) to explain fractal mechanics when they seem to be unknown, i.e. I life it :)

True, I assumed you'd be fine with my assumptions given the post you made, which I responded to, was filled with them about the raiding community.

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@Skyronight.6370 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance. If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out. Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid.

Elitism ppl without any clue who keep joining raids and trying to leech, fucking up the raid and wasting everyone else's time. We once had a guy in the group for Matthias who didn't know shit.. We even tried to explain him what he has to do 2 times really slowly and he even said he understands that but then he fucked up again.. like.. uncarryable hard.It's just a waste of time and the biggest problem is, that in a group of 10, if say everybody's a random you'll have some who just don't have the time for this.. if you fail 2 times because of a pug doesn't know the mechanics and your group would need to teach him then they just leave because, well, they got other things to do as well. And then you have to search for another guy who replaces the dude who just left which also takes time and so on.. It's just a waiting game at this point.

2 things I want to mention in this context which might help to work around the problem for you:1) KP requirements pretty much only exist in public groups because of said problems. Join a raiding guild or watch out for a couple guys you can raid with and form or join a raid group. I myself can only really raid because of 2 friends who take me with them because I also only have ~25 LI or so.2) Not every lfg-group does have an entry requirement, just wait for those popping up or join some training raids, nobody asks for KP/LI there, but then again you're likely to fail the raid since they most of the time don't really know the mechanics.. also it's a lot more time intensive since the raid leaders explain everything first (most of the time)

Also.. just because you and a lot of other ppl think they aren't hard... GW2 is for casuals (I think they are easy too btw but we aren't the target audience tbh) so there is a shitload of ppl out there who already struggle with the current difficulty.. Unfortunately Anet targets those apparently and everything gets dumbed down..

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@Dayra.7405 said:

@"SLOTH.5231" said:What exactly is the benefit in raiding in this game?

Raid Community insisted successfully that raids are the only source of

Alternative Legendary Armor without extra skins are obtainable from PvP and WvW reward tracks.

It wasn't the raid community that "insisted". The reward structure was solely installed by Arenanet and they adressed this decision openly several times in the past. A community thought serving another legendary armor for open world content was brought up a lot even by raiders but always ignored or denied with the statement that their idea of a PvE armor is already in place with the raid one.A clever move and rather impactful business decision would have been to give an open world armor next to the PvP & WvW one and there's only one single reason that speaks (spoke) against it: dev resources. In no way it would have hurt the raid player base but it would have been a huge addition for a big chunk of the rest of the players. Think about it, lots of active players would still be in the game playing more regular and getting this armor in their own pace - step by step. And also remember the drama about the release of the raid armor with 2 collections, not being finished from the start and the disaster: "We developed that armor twice each with one year work a.k.a. 2 years."This company is just not good at handing out quality stuff in a reasonable time frame and in the long run this will lead to bankruptcy once people will stop buying shinies from the gem store because they don't have interesting places to show off.In the end, no, the voice of the raiders has never been an impact for the decision of a raid only PvE armor otherwise gazillions of smart and necessary suggestions (lots of them small ones!) made up by raiders would have been heard and adjusted! The handling with raiders in the past & presence and content being released so slowly and unsteadily is more of a bad treatment. Of course you can say: "But you have your raids." Indeed, you are right but the whole interplay is terrible and was not well-thought.

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