Rite of the Great Dwarf: It's time to put it in line with the other skills

[narcx.3570]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:I'm pretty sure there has never in this game been another stunbreak that was ever even close to 1.25 sec cast time unless the cast was protected by a block or evade. This is pretty much the only reason jalis isn't worth using in pvp as it is too susceptible to cc and focus fire. At least cut the cast in half while also giving aegis at the start of the cast, or just make the cast a channeled block like shelter, it is already expensive enough it can't be spammed.

Just move the stun break to another skill already. Road already gives stability so it makes sense there conceptually.

Gameplaywise, it'd also be nice to attach it to Vengeful Hammers, since this is a low energy cost, instacast skill... It would give it a feel more inline with Glint's stun break, which we all love. Although maybe you would have to give the stun break aspect of it an internal cd to stop it from being op... Or, you know what? It'd almost be fine if Jalis had unlimited stuzbreaks anyways--both conceptually and balance wise, sine the stance is already insanely kiteable. It could give interesting counterplay routes even: hard cc being useless against Jalis, but soft-cc being hyper effective.

[Caeledh.5437]

@narcx.3570 said:

Gameplaywise, it'd also be nice to attach it to Vengeful Hammers

Doesn't smacking someone in the head with a hammer usually have the opposite effect?

[draxynnic.3719]

Honestly, I'm already in the habit of activating Vengeful Hammers in lieu of a stunbreak, since it both allows you to keep some pressure up and provides some protection against CC. It's not the revenant being hit in the head by the hammers, after all, and it fits the "vengeful" aspect of the skill: try and pull a hard-CC-and-spike on me, and I'll smack you and your friends in the heads with hammers.

Personally, though, I think that giving RotGD some protection against being interrupted would probably do the job, whether it's stability, a block during the cast time a la Shelter, or some other effect that makes it harder to interrupt.

Another possibility could be to make it use less energy when used as a stunbreak. Which would fit the general "if you hit me it'll only make me stronger" theme: hitting a Jalis rev with a hard CC gives them the opportunity to use a stronger RotGD.

[Virdo.1540]

Its a full-energy drain that doesnt reduce damage from conditions or life siphon etc.To that, there are many problems with getting it "casted"

At first, they should remove its casting time.- Then its actually worth to be used as stunbreak

[draxynnic.3719]

I'm inclined to disagree with removing the casting time. It's SUPPOSED to be a high-tell, high-impact skill, akin to Jade Winds and Chaotic Release. Problem is that combining that with being a stunbreak that doesn't protect against follow-up stuns means that it's easy to hit it with a follow-up stun, draining energy for little benefit.

It's that protection from re-stunning that make the other stunbreaks so much better. Riposting Shadows is the best revenant stunbreak because it follows up with an evade frame and gets you out of there, making an immediate re-stun unlikely. Gaze of Darkness is an area blind, possibly causing re-stun attempts to miss. Pain Absorption's Resistance protects against taunt and fear, and also protects against soft CC that immobilise, cripple, and chill that might otherwise hinder you from getting out of the follow-up attack. Even Darkrazor, awkward as it can be using him as a stunbreak, covers his own casting with Stability and then applies heavy counter-CC.

RotGD... does none of that. The 50% damage reduction helps survive whatever spike the attacker planned to follow up with, if you get it off, but that 1.25s cast time is completely unprotected, and none of the stability access that Jalis has access to can be called in to protect the completion of a skill which is used as a stunbreak (since True Nature has a cast time, albeit a short one).

Shortening the cast time I could get behind, but I don't think it should go below the 0.75s of Chaotic Release. It is, after all, supposed to be an echo of a ritual that took several minutes to perform, not something you just turn on with a thought. However, that cast time needs to be covered by something so that pinning down a Jalis revenant isn't simply a matter of chaining two stuns in quick succession while they don't have Stability. Maybe it could cover itself with a stack of Stability, maybe a block, maybe invulnerability (although I'd hesitate to make it something so strong that it would likely prevent capture point contribution), but I think it does need to have something. And unlike making it an instant cast, I think it is fitting for it to provide some strong protection to the user while it's being invoked before dispersing that protection to the user's allies.

[Aeolus.3615]

@"Virdo.1540" said:Its a full-energy drain that doesnt reduce damage from conditions or life siphon etc.To that, there are many problems with getting it "casted"

At first, they should remove its casting time.- Then its actually worth to be used as stunbreak

Endure pain is what ur looking for.Jalis is for phisical damage, i would request to rework the trait rather the skill since grandmaster trait has a secondary effect on a ICD.

Besides that renegade healing aoe is a condi damage reducer.

[Virdo.1540]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Its a full-energy drain that doesnt reduce damage from conditions or life siphon etc.To that, there are many problems with getting it "casted"

At first, they should remove its casting time.- Then its actually worth to be used as stunbreak

Endure pain is what ur looking for.Jalis is for phisical damage, i would request to rework the trait rather the skill since grandmaster trait has a secondary effect on a ICD.

Besides that renegade healing aoe is a condi damage reducer.

tbh, it wouldnt be that bad. Warrior has tons of ways to be completely immune with close to no drawback, while revs with jalis have to spend all their energy into physical damage reduction ,or into demon for condi dmg reduction.

To that, Endure pain isnt even a elite skill or has cast time + it can be used as a passive trait.and even if its still not working against conditions, the warrior has enough health to stand & enough cleansing too.-

[Shao.7236]

Dwarf is remarkably build around stability, just like Demon is more about Resistance. The idea behind granting stability on a elite skill (New suggestion.) makes for a more interesting self sustain approach that could in term force people off Steadfast as well as making Inspiring less mandatory to use, leaving more energy to play with since as said before, it's almost impossible to keep any momentum without using Inspiring but then you can't do RotGD without Charged Mists and Spirit Boon gives up on Mobility as core revenant wasting on a utility slot. The restrictions are too tight for anything to be pulled off efficiently as Dwarf takes too much time to be effective in the heat of the moment.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Would like self CC immunity as well under Dwarf if it remains as is. Pretty much a Unique boon version of Stablity that isnt stripped.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Would like self CC immunity as well under Dwarf if it remains as is. Pretty much a Unique boon version of Stablity that isnt stripped.

That would be interesting 2-3 sec of it won’t be op besides most players don’t even use jalis on the right times/moment, this also m8 change how people start using jalis elite.

[Shao.7236]

That would be a little confusing, perhaps a bit OP to be immune to CC entirely as the buff is shared. It's kind of the purpose of Inspiring to do so.

Let's keep the counter play in there and rather focus on why RotGD is bad as a stunbreak even if the legend has access to insane amount of stability.

• It doesn't make it as tanky as it would help to be this much exposed using RotGD. Think of it like with Pain Absorption, they both mitigate either spectrum of damage but PA is not slow as hell, so why should RotGD be? Like said, because it can't be stripped? It's not Endure Pain, there's a lot more involved around it to be effectively worth it as a skill, thus why the cast time needs to be at least ¾, ever used Quickness with it? It feels just right, like it's actually worth using, doesn't ruin the flow.
• Being such a long cast easily let ANYONE CC chain and it's the biggest problem, even if stability is remotely available after evade or Inspiring, you have no energy left which I can understand the reasoning behind because assuming defensive moves should remove the ability to be offensive, problem is you're STILL vulnerable using the skill at a high risk of being wasted for not having evaded or using Inspiring for stability first which honestly doesn't leave you to use RotGD anyway because you'll take so much damage waiting for the energy that Vengeful Hammers with SR is worth it better in the end. There's too much pro-active gameplay instead of reactive, it doesn't work well in PvP but nor would it be useful in PvE since there's better ways of doing it anyway.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Muh 50% reduction. Here go facetank with Rite and still eat 10k rapid fire. Its barely better than protection which some classes can train to 40%.As it stands rn Rite should be insta with 30 energy cost

[Shao.7236]

Dwarf gets a lot and lot of weakness, the idea is to combine all those damage reduction bonuses with it, but again. Takes hella to long too perform to be something to pull off consistently.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Muh 50% reduction. Here go facetank with Rite and still eat 10k rapid fire. Its barely better than protection which some classes can train to 40%.As it stands rn Rite should be insta with 30 energy cost

I think sometimes atackers client or server skips Rotg and don’t add it to the formula.

Imo rotgd should give the armor value for the 50% reducer that way we could be sure it is working.

Assuming 50% damage reducer would be arround 4~5k armor... for 3-4 seconds.

[narcx.3570]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Would like self CC immunity as well under Dwarf if it remains as is. Pretty much a Unique boon version of Stablity that isnt stripped.

That's basically what Jalis would need to become somewhat viable, some sort of unstrippable, long duration immunity to hard cc... The same concept should also be applied to Pain Absorption in Mallyx, but for a non-boon, class unique buff version of Resistance.

If a legend's design needs a specific boon to function, it can't be expected to perform outside of PvE against anyone with half a brain, because everyone has loads of boonstrip/corrupt. It's sad and shouldn't be the case that Jalis, a legend built around stability and tanking, is weaker to focused cc than Shiro.

[Shao.7236]

@narcx.3570 said:Giving Mallyx a non-boon is a bad idea, it's already strong as it is. Giving Dwarf the same treatment is also a bad idea because of the isolation of effect.

Giving CC immunity up to 5 players in a form non counter-able buff with Stability already available on demand.. I'd prefer that we actually fix the glaring issues of the skill first rather than jump right away into overwhelmingly strong ideas.

Buffs mechanics needs to be unified so that we can improve them, being stuck with 2 seconds of unchangeable Resistance would suck, so much for Dwarf as well because that's not the actual issue right now with the skill.

[narcx.3570]

@Shao.7236 said:

@narcx.3570 said:Giving Mallyx a non-boon is a bad idea, it's already strong as it is. Giving Dwarf the same treatment is also a bad idea because of the isolation of effect.

Giving CC immunity up to 5 players in a form non counter-able buff with Stability already available on demand.. I'd prefer that we actually fix the glaring issues of the skill first rather than jump right away into overwhelmingly strong ideas.

Buffs mechanics needs to be unified so that we can improve them, being stuck with 2 seconds of unchangeable Resistance would suck, so much for Dwarf as well because that's not the actual issue right now with the skill.

Should clarify that I meant these nonboon buffs would be self only, it would obviously be too strong to give your whole group immunty to cc or condis...

And Mallyx is only strong against people who can't kite/strip properly.

[Knighthonor.4061]

this has me interested in running some number testing.

Protection vs Rite

[Arkantos.7460]

just ... Lower energy cost by min 10 and cast time to 1/2 sec ... then perfect fine

[Kain Francois.4328]

What if... there were a style of support Revenant which reduces incoming damage via Jalis, while healing allies with Staff?

• Buff to 10 targets-Slightly reduced cast time-Reduced energy cost
• Grandmaster trait to also grant Protection? (66.5% dmg protection instead of 50)

It could be a niche for heal revs? Use it before Greens on VG? (If it works...)

[Shao.7236]

Reminder that the skill functionality is fine and WORKS well when used as intended, the problem is: Takes too long to cast and thus too risky to use, the energy cost is too high to synergy with anything.

The way Anet intended this to be used was with SotM + Spirit Boon, which works REALLY well, but to pull it off any other way is a real challenge because the energy cost is high and cast is too long (Again.). Hence why the buffs needed so that variety can be achieved, this can also help greatly with the flow of the legend.

So in the end, the best buffs would indeed be;Slightly reduced cast time.orReduced energy cost.Not both, because as it stands it's not as underpowered as most seem to think, people have too high expectation of that skill all alone. I lean to the cast time however.

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

Ventari Jalis works really well, the only problem like EVERY Ventari builds is the lack of stunbreak in the legend, thus making it an easy target in team fights. Stability on evade is not enough for it, but the Inspiring Reinforcement buff really helped, looking forward to trying it more often once they fix Hammer.

[Shao.7236]

So in the days of playing Jalis with either core legends, I have been called cancer many times as I have been enjoying a certain way to play the legend. Which is honestly how Anet intended it to be but being so specific, it kills any other potential the legend has.

That is the cast time, I can see why the energy cost is so high, I can see why they expect you to never get CC on Jalis, but latter is the same. The skill takes too long to channel and it ruins the flow badly, also even with stability it's not impossible to get CC. So whether it was for balance or counterplay, the cast time hasn't aged well and needs to be adjusted today so that more people as well as ideas can benefit from it.

Quickness with RotGD feels just right, so ¾ sounds like a sweet spot.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think most of the times I get a RotGD interrupted it's in the last half a second or so, too, so unless my opponents are deliberately waiting until the last moment before interrupting it, a 0.75s activation time would make it a lot more likely to complete.

[Shao.7236]

Played a ton of Jalis and I still think the cast needs to be a little shorter, I've became used to prepare myself with it but that doesn't mean it's any better when you remind yourself it's 1¼ to fully cast with the highest energy cost Revenant skill in the game.

It's a /VERY/ strong skill but the cast time really messes with the flow, 1 second would be better and not make players feel so vulnerable everytime.

[Arkantos.7460]

for this high cost, there should be immunity to ccits frustrating, casting this skill and getting cced right after ...GG