Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Mesmers should not have stealth


Recommended Posts

Unfortunately, the best counters for stealth are... in the wrong game. Would love to Distracting Shot that thing the moment I saw you start using it, or have you kill yourself under Backfire so you'd unstealth already downed! Spiteful Spirit and watch all your clones kill themselves AND the mesmer!

... Sorry. Just reminiscing. This contributes nothing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@"Antycypator.9874" said:Mesmers ARE like thieves, it's all about illusions, to trick people, confuse them, make them think "tf is happening?". Stealth is some kind of illusionary magic. I belive mesmers utilize illusion to stealth themselves, it's not shadow magic like thieves do.

So... removing stealth from mesmer would be like removing symbols from guardian.

Lore shouldn't be a reason to give any class too many tools. One thing I would be okay with, would be a shatter skill that applies stealth. That would force the mesmer to choose in which way to be confusing. The whole issue is the combination of the two, having several models with no way of telling if the real one is even here.

It's just thematicaly correct, just like corrupt skills for necromancers. Good thing it's fairly limited and stealth skills for mesmers are super short (if not traited). It's not like thief when you can play "perma stealth" build and be invisible almost all the time. Mesmer has many tools and utility skills — for almost every situation. BTW utility skills are not designed to deal heavy damage (there are always exeptions), more like support, reflects, blocks, stun breakers, control, mobility).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like how the word "confusing" being thrown around without further elaborations. How is it confusing? Why is it confusing? What makes it confusing? Without pinning down to specifics you just sounded like someone who has no idea about the class and rather complain about it than evaluate it.

We're in 2019.Stealth doesn't suddenly make clones animate themselves differently, no class is "confusing by nature" at this point.Mesmer is still the same old noob stomper that excels at punishing foes unfamiliar to it yet the class struggles to get decent representations in ladders.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@ROMANG.1903 said:Stealth makes mesmers confusing beyond what is healthy for the game, it makes them nothing more thieves with more confusing spells. Mesmers should rely on illusions, not stealth.

But mesmer use illusions to make you think that they ain't here... Illusions are mainly the illusionist saying to your brain that something happen or not. And stealth isn't incompatible with this concept. Or perhaps you think it's more logic to be able to disappear after jumping into smoke?

Link to post
Share on other sites

@ROMANG.1903 said:Clones are easily identifyable in a short time. But the mesmer spawns several of them and goes in and out of stealth evey second, and doesn't have to sacrifice any burst potential to do so. Every other class has to choose between offense and defense, the mesmer doesn't. And if your solution to counter the clones is to waste your damaging abilities on them, well, I think you don't exactly grasp what a counter is supposed to be.

I don't feel like anyone has properly responded to/refuted this yet.I agree.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:Clones are easily identifyable in a short time. But the mesmer spawns several of them and goes in and out of stealth evey second, and doesn't have to sacrifice any burst potential to do so. Every other class has to choose between offense and defense, the mesmer doesn't. And if your solution to counter the clones is to waste your damaging abilities on them, well, I think you don't exactly grasp what a counter is supposed to be.

I don't feel like anyone has properly responded to/refuted this yet.I agree.

Might be because it's not true.Mesmer uses 2 stealth skills, SoM and Torch 4, 2sec stealth on a 30sec cd and 3sec stealth on a 30sec cd.Mesmer burst needs to hit with gs2 in order to work and blows up 5skills.Mesmer has to choose between offense and defense too, power mes after the burst has 1 stunbreaker, 0 condi cleanses and low hp/armor and one of the lowest sustain damage on game.Clones die in 1 auto, you don't even need to waste damaging abilities, just cleave with autos.Oh and you need clones to do damage, which means as soon as you kill clones you're cutting down the damage immensely, there's not another single profession that can be countered as easily as this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"ROMANG.1903" said:Clones are easily identifyable in a short time. But the mesmer spawns several of them and goes in and out of stealth evey second, and doesn't have to sacrifice any burst potential to do so. Every other class has to choose between offense and defense, the mesmer doesn't. And if your solution to counter the clones is to waste your damaging abilities on them, well, I think you don't exactly grasp what a counter is supposed to be.

I don't feel like anyone has properly responded to/refuted this yet.I agree.

Its very obvious when someone knows what they're talking about and when not with Mesmer. I assume most people just dont bother anymore to respond to users who dont understand Mesmer on a fundamental level, because otherwise we'd be here all day.

To actually elaborate: Yes, shatters are Mesmers profession mechanic and clones their profession ressource.You "consume" all your ressource on each shatter so, yes, you actually do have to make a decision between damage/cc/defense.Furthermore, yes, "wasting your skills" to essentially reset the profession ressource is indeed a way to counter them. Imagine if you could reset a Warriors adrenalin or Necromancers lifeforce, that is what this is. By destroying clones you cripple a Mesmers offensive and defensive capabilities alike. It doesnt take much effort either, Clones in PvP have like 3k health, which is auto attack levels of damage.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@"Antycypator.9874" said:Mesmers ARE like thieves, it's all about illusions, to trick people, confuse them, make them think "tf is happening?". Stealth is some kind of illusionary magic. I belive mesmers utilize illusion to stealth themselves, it's not shadow magic like thieves do.

So... removing stealth from mesmer would be like removing symbols from guardian.

Lore shouldn't be a reason to give any class too many tools. One thing I would be okay with, would be a shatter skill that applies stealth. That would force the mesmer to choose in which way to be confusing.
The whole issue is the combination of the two, having several models with no way of telling if the real one is even here.

@"Delofasht.4231" said:Sounds like a problem with clones rather than stealth. Clones are not even deceiving to anyone who knows any of the various tells that separate the Mesmer from them. It requires some learning and some awareness of when you have lost target. Or you can just roll massive AoE and spam it on the clones and kill them all... you know, like every other profession has access to.

Clones are easily identifyable in a short time. But the mesmer spawns several of them and goes in and out of stealth evey second, and doesn't have to sacrifice any burst potential to do so. Every other class has to choose between offense and defense, the mesmer doesn't. And if your solution to counter the clones is to waste your damaging abilities on them
, well, I think you don't exactly grasp what a counter is supposed to be.

No way to tell if they're even here? Yeah you can. Clones literally either stand still and autoattack or walk up to you and autoattack. Close usually have no buffs, no passive mantras, and no signets. If he's moving sideways or backwards or doing any animation besides the autoattack... he's not a clone. They only ever move in a straight or diagonal line... they don't anticipate where you're going. they don't sidestep AOE. they don't even mouse turn. If it switches weapons. it's not a clone.

Then you literally contradict yourself by saying "Clones are easily identifyable in a short time." ... then you only have to worry about burst out of stealth... which lasts a total of 4-5 seconds if they didn't VERY OBVIOUSLY use mass invisibility with prismatic? so dodge? Use block? Cast Aegis? Cast a skill that gives you barrier? Use an AOE revealed skill? Use an Aura? Wait 2 seconds and teleport so you're not where you were and the mesmer has to completely re-position for the burst?

Goes in and out of stealth every second? There's a grand total of like four stealth skills, and 1 trait, and that's if you're willing to literally break your build to take all of them at once. This isn't thief, we can't dagger 5, pistol 5 + heartseek, shadow refuge stack. They also have no reset on revealed.

Waste damage skills on clones? Dude, they die to autoattacks. One AOE skill will kill all clones in range. And that's if you don't have the sense to block or dodge when 3 clones and a mesmer are running up to you.

Like, you really sound like you just don't know how to counterplay mesmer and got burst stomped too much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Enokitake.1742 Well said. The original poster’s entire premise does highlight why Mesmer gets called to nerf so often and how the devs end up erroneously targeting skills or traits for “fixing”. Much of the community thinks you need to build specifically to beat Mesmer, but really it is just a learning how the profession plays, and using your skills when you need to and not just spamming them on cooldown.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@op :
  • Guardian should not have aegis.
  • Warrior should not have passive sustain.
  • Rev shoumd not have riposting shadow.
  • Ele should not have mist form.
  • Nec should not have 2nd life bar.
  • Thief should not have evade or no stealth.
  • Engi should not have stealth.
  • Ranger should not have tealth.

What else ?Everyone should die when targeting in 10 sec so you feel good ?

I was going to answer all of this but I think you already know why this is different. Mesmers are confusing by nature. For every class with stealth, you always know it when they are in stealth, and it lasts for a set duration with clear rules. They are invisible, but you know that they are.When it comes to mesmer, you never know if the character is in stealth, if he's one of the clones, if he's even still there or if he teleported super far away... Now it might just be manageable if all of these parameters didn't change literally every few seconds. Everytime the mesmer spawns new clones, you have to guess which one is the real one, or if the real one is even visible. And to complete all of this, mesmers don't have to sacrifice any damage to get so confusing, which makes them able to burst you down while you're still looking for the real one.

It seems you have a misconception, Core Mesmer and Chronomancer cannot make you confused!!, Only Mirage would make you confused. And based on its name "Mirage" you shall be confused.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, mesmers should not have this much stealth. But also mesmer illusions should not be so different from the mesmer himself, so that the players would experience hard time which is which. Every illusion should be identical to the mesmer, and copy his movements also, like a mirror , to make it more different and "mesmer-like". In the end, mesmer is an illusionist after all and an illusion that is easily perceived is against the mentality of it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Engal.6359" said:Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are goddamn bad)Stealth is bad in this game as you are completely invisible and no chances detect it unless you posses such rare "AoE reveal" skill, only blessed classes has it (and only certain elite specs). Even in HotS from full stealth they gave players ability to actually see them while they are in stealth, in WoW they become transparent too when they are close (iirc, havent played wow in like 10 years or so xD).

Link to post
Share on other sites

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)

Depends on their build. Most ppl take pistol over torch, but signet fixes 2s and some good mirages take mass for the team utility. I'm a p2 mesmer main, I am perfectly aware of the pvp meta.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Engal.6359 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)

Depends on their build. Most ppl take pistol over torch, but signet fixes 2s and some good mirages take mass for the team utility. I'm a p2 mesmer main, I am perfectly aware of the pvp meta.Havent seen even one "good" mirage that take MI over jaunt in this condi fiesta, wouldnt do that as well, also holo with passive reveal, meh
Link to post
Share on other sites

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)

Depends on their build. Most ppl take pistol over torch, but signet fixes 2s and some good mirages take mass for the team utility. I'm a p2 mesmer main, I am perfectly aware of the pvp meta.Havent seen even one "good" mirage that take MI over jaunt in this condi fiesta, wouldnt do that as well, also holo with passive reveal, meh

It's more common in ATs, but you only see it with high rated mirages anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Engal.6359 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Stealth is not the problem. Condi mirage is. On power mes, stealth is vital for correct positioning and timing. On condi its just another button to spam. Like CI, stealth isnt a problem. Condi mirage is fundamentally broken, and the devs should address the cause rather than any one symptom. Not that they will, but we can hope.You should be aware that condi mirage doesnt use stealth. (pvp at least, in wvw ppl can play whatever and get away as almost all wvw players are kitten bad)

Depends on their build. Most ppl take pistol over torch, but signet fixes 2s and some good mirages take mass for the team utility. I'm a p2 mesmer main, I am perfectly aware of the pvp meta.Havent seen even one "good" mirage that take MI over jaunt in this condi fiesta, wouldnt do that as well, also holo with passive reveal, meh

It's more common in ATs, but you only see it with high rated mirages anyway.Whatever you say, never seen these "high rated MI mirages" ever but okay :)
Link to post
Share on other sites

hi when you have problems to deal with stealth maybe these guides can help you a bit. it prob will not solve all your problems but can make your life way easier:

  1. stealthtracking guide with different skill types of gw2 (sadly first massive attack song got muted by youtube bc of copyrights, still crying :( music starts in the end again)

    edit for mesmers: even blurred has stealth tracking char alignment to help you see movement of stealthed targets (sadly i couldnt find the footage in one of my vids showing it perfectly when a thief stealthed in the start of blurred and walked into my back to hit backstab in the aftercast of blurred, but char alignment warned me perfectly)
    1. why playing with effect and dialog sound (no music) helps a lot to get prepared for a stealth attack:
      the guide for all the important sounds (incl not only the sounds esp later in the vid some other good tips also vs cc):
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...