Vault of the Khan-Ur/Grothmar Meta reward structure is horrid and needs severe improvement.

[Kelida.8690]

The infusion is tradeable the charr helms unless drop rate is so low no one has one to post are not.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

I keep seeing people commenting "just do it for the fun, not the rewards". But rewards have always been part of the fun in RPGs.

Imagine playing a classic RPG quest, killing the big bad dragon only to find the dragon hoard containing a tin can and a half-eaten sandwich. That would get old fast.

I understand MMOrpgs have to adjust for having thousands of players doing the same content. But there should be a middle ground between instant gratification and rewards nobody has even seen 2 days in, despite thousands of players doing the event.

[Urgi.3504]

Collect 4 items worth of several gold to get the item worth several silver. I feel sorry for a poor soul that came up with that. Must've been a proud moment for it.

[misterman.1530]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:I keep seeing people commenting "just do it for the fun, not the rewards". But rewards have always been part of the fun in RPGs.

Imagine playing a classic RPG quest, killing the big bad dragon only to find the dragon hoard containing a tin can and a half-eaten sandwich. That would get old fast.

I understand MMOrpgs have to adjust for having thousands of players doing the same content. But there should be a middle ground between instant gratification and rewards nobody has even seen 2 days in, despite thousands of players doing the event.

I so agree. I remember finally killing Zhaitan. Yay! Then finding out that the rewards were some goop, salvageable crap items, and, I think, a recipe to make something ascended. I would expect that killing an elder dragon would net you a legendary. Was quite disappointed.

[Memoranda.9386]

ANet is in a tough spot, because players always complain about maps being "dead" a few weeks after release, and setting up the meta reward structure this way does help prolong the "life" of the map. It's just a tool they're using.

If rewards/meta were too easy, there would be a hundred threads of how pointless it all is.

[Laivine.9308]

I should have sold my keys instead of opening that chest. The usual reward is extremely disappointing and I have no urge to go grind on the map anymore (maybe only to unlock the guild decorations). I will probably get the emote from wvw reward track and that's it. Meh.I liked the map overall though.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"Memoranda.9386" said:ANet is in a tough spot, because players always complain about maps being "dead" a few weeks after release, and setting up the meta reward structure this way does help prolong the "life" of the map. It's just a tool they're using.

If rewards/meta were too easy, there would be a hundred threads of how pointless it all is.

And having players chasing a near-imaginary reward that they 'll never get to see, prolongs map life? How long until they realize it's pointless and move on?

Even if they are doing it for gold, there are plenty of other events that do that better and more efficiently.

I've said it before and I will say it again, you can still have rare rng that doesn't reach the insanity levels of infusions . They nailed it with Tequatl. BtA skins that are rare but drop often enough to keep people playing (alongside the decent gold). It's a relatively common sight to see a zerg member pinging their newly found Teq skin in chat. It might not have been you but seeing them drop gives you hope you 'll be next and you keep doing the map. On the other hand, I've never seen an infusion drop in any meta that has them. Not once (and I've done a lot).

[Manasa Devi.7958]

It needs an accumulating type of reward, something you need a lot of to achieve a goal or acquire an item. Basic unidentified loot and rare drops won't cut it for the long term. Older metas have far better basic loot, and I'm pretty sure the daily amalgamated gemstone makes people come back again and again to a lot of those metas. Grothmar really has nothing going for it. Once the novelty wears off, I don't see this being popular.

[Zaklex.6308]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:~snip~Must do 4 separate meta events to earn the 4 keys for opening the Vault of the Khan-Ur. If you do the metas all back to back, this will take you about 2 hours. Alternatively, you can spend, and thus lose, gold to buy the keys on their own. As of right now, buying the 4 keys costs you around 6 gold. Not exactly what we're looking for considering that playing metas should be lucrative.

~snip~

TL;DR Grothmar Valley meta rewards are awful for your time investment, not a single new infusion has dropped yet, a collection is effectively not completable, and the reward structure needs to be looked at before people quit playing this content.

I'd like you to keep in mind that the part about playing meta's should be lucrative is your opinion(and probably that of many others as well), but some people do play then just for the fun of it and don't really care about how much gold they make(which also translates to the rest of the game, they play for fun, not to make gold, it is entertainment after all).

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:~snip~Must do 4 separate meta events to earn the 4 keys for opening the Vault of the Khan-Ur. If you do the metas all back to back, this will take you about 2 hours. Alternatively, you can spend, and thus lose, gold to buy the keys on their own. As of right now, buying the 4 keys costs you around 6 gold. Not exactly what we're looking for considering that playing metas should be lucrative.

~snip~

TL;DR Grothmar Valley meta rewards are awful for your time investment, not a single new infusion has dropped yet, a collection is effectively not completable, and the reward structure needs to be looked at before people quit playing this content.

I'd like you to keep in mind that the part about playing meta's should be lucrative is your opinion(and probably that of many others as well), but some people do play then just for the fun of it and don't really care about how much gold they make(which also translates to the rest of the game, they play for fun, not to make gold, it is entertainment after all).

Ah "fun". Movies are really fun. There are some people who will go see a movie at the theatre 10 times. An extremely small minority. Most people go 1-2 times and move on.

GW2 events can also be fun. You do them, fight the bosses, learn the mechanics and generally have fun. But how many times can you repeat the same thing over and over, before it stops being fun? This is were rewards come in. To ensure you keep playing even after you've seen everything an event has to offer. After that point, rewards "become the fun".

Without them, this game would be dead already. Because MMOs are built around repetition, but repetition kills fun.

[MokahTGS.7850]

area to be dead in 3....2....1....

[Biermeister.4678]

@MokahTGS.7850 said:area to be dead in 3....2....1....

Have not hit an active map yet spent most of the time just getting points and vistas event cycle is very bad and takes way too long, get better rewards on just doing a boss run

[Ol Nik.2518]

My main concern is that after a very short time, metas like effigy will be impossible to complete unless there is a dedicated squad doing metas. Unfortunately, the reward structure makes it highly unlikely that such squads will be formed.

I hope ArenaNet will address downscaling of all events, so they are doable with a small number of people. Or they make meta more rewarding, so the map is included in LW meta trains.

[Zaklex.6308]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:~snip~Must do 4 separate meta events to earn the 4 keys for opening the Vault of the Khan-Ur. If you do the metas all back to back, this will take you about 2 hours. Alternatively, you can spend, and thus lose, gold to buy the keys on their own. As of right now, buying the 4 keys costs you around 6 gold. Not exactly what we're looking for considering that playing metas should be lucrative.

~snip~

TL;DR Grothmar Valley meta rewards are awful for your time investment, not a single new infusion has dropped yet, a collection is effectively not completable, and the reward structure needs to be looked at before people quit playing this content.

I'd like you to keep in mind that the part about playing meta's should be lucrative is your opinion(and probably that of many others as well), but some people do play then just for the fun of it and don't really care about how much gold they make(which also translates to the rest of the game, they play for fun, not to make gold, it is entertainment after all).

Ah "fun". Movies are really fun. There are some people who will go see a movie at the theatre 10 times. An extremely small minority. Most people go 1-2 times and move on.

GW2 events can also be fun. You do them, fight the bosses, learn the mechanics and generally have fun. But how many times can you repeat the same thing over and over, before it stops being fun? This is were rewards come in. To ensure you keep playing even after you've seen everything an event has to offer. After that point, rewards "become the fun".

Without them, this game would be dead already. Because MMOs are built around repetition, but repetition kills fun.

Like I said, not everyone plays for the rewards...not even after doing something a dozen or more times...otherwise this applies to everything in the game, even those meta's the OP referred to, if they're fun some of us will do them regardless of the rewards. I'll give an example of an event that I can do over and over and not care about the rewards...bounties, personally I find them fun and can do them over and over...mindless killing is fun, it's a way to relax and unwind, but then again I'm one of those "casual" players that will play for 3 - 6 hours at a sitting, so take it with a grain of salt, not everyone has the same outlook on games. We all have our own opinions on what is fun or not.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:~snip~Must do 4 separate meta events to earn the 4 keys for opening the Vault of the Khan-Ur. If you do the metas all back to back, this will take you about 2 hours. Alternatively, you can spend, and thus lose, gold to buy the keys on their own. As of right now, buying the 4 keys costs you around 6 gold. Not exactly what we're looking for considering that playing metas should be lucrative.

~snip~

TL;DR Grothmar Valley meta rewards are awful for your time investment, not a single new infusion has dropped yet, a collection is effectively not completable, and the reward structure needs to be looked at before people quit playing this content.

I'd like you to keep in mind that the part about playing meta's should be lucrative is your opinion(and probably that of many others as well), but some people do play then just for the fun of it and don't really care about how much gold they make(which also translates to the rest of the game, they play for fun, not to make gold, it is entertainment after all).Sure, but that won't hold for long. In the end, the long-term staying power of a meta depends mainly on rewards and ease of completion (both time invested and difficulty). Grothmar is simply lacking on both counts.The very few people that will continue to do it "for fun" after a year from now will simply not be enough to keep the meta going.

[Ayrilana.1396]

I’ve seen how the metas scale with a low population of players and they’re quite doable. Granted, months from now, your best chance at doing them will be during the first couple meta cycles after reset but that’s the case with a lot of metas.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Unless you intend to use all of the skins, why does it matter?A meta that is not worth doing is a dead meta. In this case it's not the rarity of the rare/super rare drops that is a problem. The

basic

rewards are. So is the 4-part key system.

This... so much this

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Unless you intend to use all of the skins, why does it matter?A meta that is not worth doing is a dead meta. In this case it's not the rarity of the rare/super rare drops that is a problem. The

basic

rewards are. So is the 4-part key system.

I just found issue with those particular rewards being focused. There definitely should be better rewards if the intent is to maintain a lot of players doing them months from now.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@"Memoranda.9386" said:ANet is in a tough spot, because players always complain about maps being "dead" a few weeks after release, and setting up the meta reward structure this way does help prolong the "life" of the map. It's just a tool they're using.

If rewards/meta were too easy, there would be a hundred threads of how pointless it all is.

That is a false economy imo… Players want content to be rewarding to keep the events, the map interesting for longer.. by placing trash blue/green rewards at the heart of the reward system over and over and leaving the better loot stored firmly behind a heavily weighted RNG system only serves to kill players interest fast and that is what kills the maps, not having better rewards or even greater amount of reward flow within the game.If that was the case, maps like AB, SW, TD, DS etc would of emptied years ago. It is about feeling rewarded for your time taken to complete, accomplish and beat content that is at issue with this game more and more these days not just the fact there is a few skins based around luck.The whole player retention mechanic is what's flawed imo not the content itself.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:~snip~Must do 4 separate meta events to earn the 4 keys for opening the Vault of the Khan-Ur. If you do the metas all back to back, this will take you about 2 hours. Alternatively, you can spend, and thus lose, gold to buy the keys on their own. As of right now, buying the 4 keys costs you around 6 gold. Not exactly what we're looking for considering that playing metas should be lucrative.

~snip~

TL;DR Grothmar Valley meta rewards are awful for your time investment, not a single new infusion has dropped yet, a collection is effectively not completable, and the reward structure needs to be looked at before people quit playing this content.

I'd like you to keep in mind that the part about playing meta's should be lucrative is your opinion(and probably that of many others as well), but some people do play then just for the fun of it and don't really care about how much gold they make(which also translates to the rest of the game, they play for fun, not to make gold, it is entertainment after all).

Ah "fun". Movies are really fun. There are some people who will go see a movie at the theatre 10 times. An extremely small minority. Most people go 1-2 times and move on.

GW2 events can also be fun. You do them, fight the bosses, learn the mechanics and generally have fun. But how many times can you repeat the same thing over and over, before it stops being fun? This is were rewards come in. To ensure you keep playing even after you've seen everything an event has to offer. After that point, rewards "become the fun".

Without them, this game would be dead already. Because MMOs are built around repetition, but repetition kills fun.

Like I said, not everyone plays for the rewards...not even after doing something a dozen or more times...otherwise this applies to everything in the game, even those meta's the OP referred to, if they're fun some of us will do them regardless of the rewards. I'll give an example of an event that I can do over and over and not care about the rewards...bounties, personally I find them fun and can do them over and over...mindless killing is fun, it's a way to relax and unwind, but then again I'm one of those "casual" players that will play for 3 - 6 hours at a sitting, so take it with a grain of salt, not everyone has the same outlook on games. We all have our own opinions on what is fun or not.

Sure bounties can be fun.. but these days they are simply daily quick runs mostly, because they simply offer very little in return.Great example of just how poor the reward vs time has worked wonders in this game.. Serpents Ire.. the most under played meta in game imo, and even after the uptick in rewards it is still only run successfully once, maybe a few times a day, or worse.Why, because it simply isn't worth the effort, not because the content is poor.. its actually a pretty decent meta and should see much more playtime, heck even the hounds is a better investment for your time.Rewards don't have to = supa dupa unique skins each run or offer 100g/hr to be fun for those who like to measure content that way, but it absolutely is about feeling rewarded for the time and effort and sorry, but being handed a few Russian doll bags of blues and greens with some yellows thrown in for "best reward" just doesn't cut it.I mean c'mon, 7 years into the game and were still pulling endless amounts of blues and green gear that are simply vendor trash and salvage for bog standard mats to TP... not really all that creative. Why don't ANET just move us all back to Queensdale, re-enact the train and leave it at that, if that's all we really want for fun.

[Ryukai.6524]

Considering the events take about 10 mins each, they could easily make it so that it's 15 mins apart for each part rather than 30 mins, 1 hour for the meta is a lot more reasonable than 2 hours. If 15 mins is pushing it on overlaping then 20 mins is also good, as that STILL cuts 40 mins off of the waiting around :P because 40 mins playtime with 1 HOUR of Standing Around! is ridiculous for a meta.

[perilisk.1874]

I kinda wish they would transition DEs in new maps to use a Reward Track mechanism more like WvW/PvP, such that most of the rewards come from the track. Let events contribute differing amounts (e.g. a difficult boss event should contribute more than a minor solo DE), in addition to scaling it to participation. Let the map dailies and map completion give reward track progress. And show it in place of the XP bar when there is no mastery track selected, as a motivational thing -- no one cares when they're going to get their 10,000th spirit shard, but if the track rewards are decent, it might be worth watching.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Obligatory "you only want it immediately" low IQ argument.

Considering there isn't even a guaranteed token or something that eventually lets you unlock the skin you want directly. Not even the map chilis are given as a common drop. This is ultimately the most laughable meta reward. Khan-Ur must have been broke and all that gold in the vault is fake.

[deffy.1320]

I totally agree with the op here, i might take my toons to do map completion but there's not much else there for me yes the map is extremely pretty, but the rewards are appalling i think this map maybe dead in a couple of weeks.

Like i did the meta today and thought jeez what did i get, erm nothing what's the point of this, i shake my head at this and what anet is thinking after 7 years or the rational reasoning behind this, i mean i can't understand the ppl buying the keys, i can understand the ppl selling the keys cause this is the only benefit of this meta, i'm certain ppl will wake up eventually, it only took me a day to know i won't be doing it again.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

Thank you OP for making this post. It explains a lot.

I’ve only opened one set of Meta reward chests. I didn’t pay attention to what I got right then but I checked my inventory a bit later and I actually thought I didn’t get anything from the chests, that those chests were bugged, because all I had in my inventory was the usual stuff from killing mobs, etc. It’s good to know that selling the keys for the few silver they’ll bring is worth more than using them myself. lol.

Maybe ANet should use map tokens such as the peppers for meta chest rewards and put what is currently available by drops on a vendor. Make the items purchasable with the map tokens. Because this current rewards is sad.