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Rate raids in terms of difficulty


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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

And vertical progression to tackle to boot? I have already stated their method, they use RNG procs as part of their strategy. THis is ENTIRELY expected. Apples and oranges.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

Also the gear disparity is minimal at the top end if you researched how Mythic prepare for bosses and run previous bosses for gear rerolls.

There is no raid guild even close to Method in GW2.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

It does when they're using RNG to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

It does when they're using it to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

I was raiding in Legion up to heroic. I known people who raid mythic.

The only thing I can say is: you do not share a mindset with them. I've seldomly heard any of them complain about difficulty. It was always a challenge. That's my main issue tbh, the constant whinning on these forums of "great" players.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

It does when they're using it to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

I was raiding in Legion up to heroic. I known people who raid mythic.

The only thing I can say is: you do not share a mindset with them. I've seldomly heard any of them complain about difficulty. It was always a challenge. That's my main issue tbh, the constant whinning on these forums of "great" players.

I never complained about WoW difficulty ever. Keep making more judgements about me.

Answer this, for the devs, what would you do, in light of power cap being reached, to make raids last longer if that's what you want? Are you looking to turn them into some crazy nightmare where your experienced players' reflexes have a 0.5% chance of succeeding so we get something like method?

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

@Firebeard.1746 said:And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

@Firebeard.1746 said:What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

@Firebeard.1746 said:Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
  • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
  • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
  • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
  • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
  • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
  • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
  • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
  • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
  • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
  • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
  • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
  • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
  • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
  • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
  • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
  • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
  • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
  • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
  • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
  • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
  • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:World first kill by SC after 2 days.

Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

It does when they're using it to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

I was raiding in Legion up to heroic. I known people who raid mythic.

The only thing I can say is: you do not share a mindset with them. I've seldomly heard any of them complain about difficulty. It was always a challenge. That's my main issue tbh, the constant whinning on these forums of "great" players.

I never complained about WoW difficulty ever. Keep making more judgements about me.

Answer this, for the devs, what would you do, in light of power cap being reached, to make raids last longer if that's what you want? Are you looking to turn them into some crazy nightmare where your reflexes have a 0.5% chance of succeeding so we get something like method?

When did I ever mention making raids harder? I think they are perfectly fine where they are now difficulty wise. Given the last strike mission, I'm going to reserve my judgment on which direction this games difficulty for group content goes. I doubt more easy content is the way to go, but that's not my decision.

I don't care about you complaining or lack thereof about WoW raids. I care about the constant whinning present here (not only from you). The forums have devolved into nothing but a constant whine about content people were unable to clear first try.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

I care about the constant whinning present here (not only from you). The forums have devolved into nothing but a constant whine about content people were unable to clear first try.

More judgement, we wiped more than once, probably more than the group who beat dhuum in the one night we tried. Anyway, maybe you should just accept the fact that people experience things differently

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

I care about the constant whinning present here (not only from you). The forums have devolved into nothing but a constant whine about content people were unable to clear first try.

More judgement, we wiped more than once, probably more than the group who beat dhuum in the one night we tried. Anyway, maybe you should just accept the fact that people experience things differentlyThe thing that makes the difference here is that there's way more difference in effectiveness between skill levels of other players. As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x. And unlike with WoW, it's not a gap that can be closed with gear. So, in the end, the best skilled players see at least some of the raid bosses as laughably easy, but for those of average skill the same "easy" bosses may be prohibitively hard. It's entirely possible for one group to learn and kill a boss in 2-3 pulls, while another group will take a whole month of learning on it (assuming they even last that long and won;t simply give up midway).In WoW, if you're not good enough, you will keep gearing up until at some point it will become easier. In GW2, you have to
get better
. For some, the second option is easy and they will be learning and improving very fast, but for many others it's not so easy, and is something that would require from them to spend a massive amounts of time on thaining. Often more time that they are willing to spend.

Perhaps you're simply not as skilled/don;t learn as fast as you thought.

Notice: personally i think that the fact this gap exists is a failure of the game design, but that's very subjective and i am sure there are people that disagree. Besides, i don't really see what could be done about it now - the game is not going to revamp all of its stat/gear/build/skill mechanic at this point.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:The thing that makes the difference here is that there's way more difference in effectiveness between skill levels of other players. As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

I don't know what's the effect of buffs in WoW but in GW2 composition also plays a very important role in DPS potential. Back in the days of Chrono+Druid+BS meta the composition was offering about triple damage. So the 2 dps slots remaining, were doing more damage than taking 5 random dps roles, plus all the other benefits of having those support builds, healing, survival, CC and so on. This assumes those random dps don't have party wide damage buffs of course, otherwise the damage difference should be smaller, but still the buffs in this game offer a gigantic dps boost, especially if stacked together. I haven't done any tests on how the current meta is, but I assume it is still very similar.

As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is >close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

Did you get the data from raidar? Most of the logs on there are actually pretty low. At least for the current patch.Its probably also important to keep in mind, that the DPS on some bosses (Mirage on SH and Renegade on Qadim 2.0 are an example) doesnt get logged properly. So the average is actually higher.

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is >close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

Did you get the data from raidar? Most of the logs on there are actually pretty low. At least for the current patch.Its probably also important to keep in mind, that the DPS on some bosses (Mirage on SH and Renegade on Qadim 2.0 are an example) doesnt get logged properly. So the average is actually higher.

Yes gw2raidar from 2 patches ago because the current patch has too few logs. The thing is I used the 99% from raidar that's a minority even by raid population standards

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:The thing that makes the difference here is that there's way more difference in effectiveness between skill levels of other players. As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

I don't know what's the effect of buffs in WoW but in GW2 composition also plays a very important role in DPS potential. Back in the days of Chrono+Druid+BS meta the composition was offering about triple damage. So the 2 dps slots remaining, were doing more damage than taking 5 random dps roles, plus all the other benefits of having those support builds, healing, survival, CC and so on. This assumes those random dps don't have party wide damage buffs of course, otherwise the damage difference should be smaller, but still the buffs in this game offer a gigantic dps boost, especially if stacked together. I haven't done any tests on how the current meta is, but I assume it is still very similar.Indeed, buffs (and lack of them) are almost certainly calculated in that difference - the benchmarks of meta builds do include buff effect, while an average player generally runs with only incidental buffs (if any).So yeah, group composition also plays an important role. Still, skill is also extremely important. I'm 100% sure, that if you got those archetypical "average players" in proper builds, gear, and group composition, they would still be doing ~3-5x less damage than a normal experienced raid team. And even if we don't consider the impact of skill difference in othe areas (like survivability, both due to being hit more, and lower healing due to lower skill of the healers), that damage difference alone is enough to significantly increase the difficulty of a raid encounter.

As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?Probably not. It will be interesting to see what the difference for next strikes (and next difficulty tier for this strike) will be.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is >close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

Did you get the data from raidar? Most of the logs on there are actually pretty low. At least for the current patch.Its probably also important to keep in mind, that the DPS on some bosses (Mirage on SH and Renegade on Qadim 2.0 are an example) doesnt get logged properly. So the average is actually higher.

Yes gw2raidar from 2 patches ago because the current patch has too few logs. The thing is I used the 99% from raidar that's a minority even by raid population standards

Small wonder if the sample sizes are small as it was said that GW2raidar was ceasing to exist o.o Most of the raiders have been using dps.report since that reddit post. But looks like it's still operational so time to dig up some logs from naftaline.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:Small wonder if the sample sizes are small as it was said that GW2raidar was ceasing to exist o.o Most of the raiders have been using dps.report since that reddit post. But looks like it's still operational so time to dig up some logs from naftaline.

Not really, dps.report is far suprior to raidar. A lot of people only used raidar for the leaderboards. However, there was a time where logs wont load and the site itself was super slow so people just stopped bothering.

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@CptAurellian.9537 said:They haven't finally added some comparison/statistics to dps.report, have they? For my taste, that stuff always made raider superior to dps.report, no matter whether the latter contains more details or not.

Yeah the only reason I look on raidar is because it has global statistics so I can see how I perform compared to the community. I use stats created by Elite Insights to see my group's performance, but you can't really compare with others on dps.report, so I find that website useless. It's buffling that they said gw2raidar was closing, but apparently it's not, or something else is going I never figured that out.

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Never played WoW nor do I care much about subjective comparisons between these games. There is also the fact that people seem to have greatly opposing opinions on which game had or still has the more difficult raids.Only thing I am going to say is that if WoW raids would make me feel the same way our raids do then I'd call them pretty easy with the occasional harder boss (that can be turned into something much easier with the right cheese such as stacking Scourges on Dhuum CM). Wouldn't even be able to rank them properly as most raids feel about the same with the occasional hard raid, as I already said.

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@Sigfodr.9576 said:W7B3: 3, CP: 2/9 (1 tank, 1 healer and 1 war can carry super hard here. the 9 is untill people learn to place fires correctly. After that it becomes easy to carry)

Don't forget dps carries. A good ren on qadim 2 can be the only dps you need and its sometimes the only dps you have because pug scourges never have dps for some reason.Same for gorseval, kc and a bunch of other bosses. People learn to not die quite fast but most dont care about their dps or have arc still set to cleave and dont even notice their low dps especially on bosses like dhuum. Short dhuum means less chances to fail but there are always some 6-8k dps players in the group.

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