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About the Charr victim complex, and Anet's hatred for Ascalon


witcher.3197

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@Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:As for the norn Im already mad, The spirits are becoming a mastery FOR EVERYONE!? Why.

Human characters in Guild Wars Eye of the North had the possibility to be blessed by the Spirits of the Wild.

Still I don't feel its right considering how shafted the norn are, and have been. Why should I share one of the few things that heck only in lore really maters to my race? The humans don't share the six as masteries, the charr don't share their ranks as masteries. The asurans don't share their stuff nor do the Sylvari... Heck the sylvari had a WHOLE expansion with flair and depth poured onto them. Don't feel its really fair in the long run, but I know it doesn't matter either....

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@"Stramatus.5219" said:I can't speak specifically to the new patch as I largely quit playing after PoF. I apparently have some catching up to do.

I feel that the idea of "Charr victimization" was absolutely somewhat prevalent at the time of GW2 release back in 2012. I feel that part of the game design to create multiple playable races that allied with each other, including the Charr was to tone down the idea of their established nature as a race in lore and throughout GW1. What was a villainous race, hellbent on war and genocide of the humans (and other races before them) became instead a narrative of "retaking a homeland". Which in and of itself was wrong on a lore standing, but was nonetheless peddled relentlessly following the release of GW2 by players seemingly unfamiliar with the lore, or had never played GW1. Nevermind the fact that the Charr also marched on Orr and Kryta to presumably perform the same Searing upon those kingdoms as well. Am I to believe those are Charr homelands too?

Meanwhile, the remaining Ascalonians were diminished in stature within lore due to the Foefire which nobody within lore or the community would likely view in a positive light. Yet I'm sure the Charr feel the Searing was completely justified. And suddenly the narrative is the mad evil king (which he was towards the end) cursing his people and the land and the Ascalonians are largely reduced to being killable mad ghosts intent on killing everyone and everything. The exceptions of course being Ebonhawke and the Ascalon Settlement in Kryta.

As a more role-player type, the vibe I got from the game, the community, my guild at the time even was basically a big "eff me for being an Ascalonian", and "The Searing is ancient history, get over it."

And I would have been willing to do so, but up till now (presumably), the game did not at all do a good job of portraying these geopolitical relationships between the races and especially the Humans and Charr. A cease-fire and peace-treaty is signed, but throughout the Personal Story, you would think everyone is best of buds, not "we just barely signed this treaty". I realize that's probably a limitation of game design and how much you can possibly branch a multi-racial playable story-line, but I will say the Charr of GW2 feel completely different from the Charr of GW1 to me, and Ascalonians got the short end of the stick between The Searing, invasion, a king who goes crazy, refuses help, and ultimately curses them, and then a narrative that reduces the Ascalonians to little more than fodder for those who don't know their lore. And the dialogue I say, or feelings I have as a player interested in somewhat roleplaying my main human character of Ascalonian ancestry (which is a selectable option in the Dead Sister personal story branch by the way...) never matched how I feel my character would really react. I think that character would be very distrusting of the Charr, not best of buds with them.

Are you actually just mad that Anet made a race 3-dimensional instead of just "kill everything and everyone"? I didn't finish GW1 but I sure as hell played it, even got through a decent chunk of EotN before life got busy and the game's mechanics got too tiring to deal with. Not to mention, marching on Orr and Kryta could be entirely written as "you took our land, we take yours". It's entirely believable for a race that in GW2, is presented as harsh and militarily focused, this all just reads like you're stuck in the past because of your roleplay. And the only way the Forefire would work in the first place is if Adelbern was absolutely deranged (because what sane king would condemn his people to live through eternity as wandering, angry spirits?), and narratively speaking it's either have the Ascalonians eternally stuck as ghosts, or have them all be wiped out because the Charr had vastly superior firepower in comparison with the exception of Ebonhawke, or you pull something out your butt that lets the humans kill the Charr entirely which is just asking for actual bad writing imo. At least this way you still get to see Ascalonians in the game, even as enemies. And miss me with the "established lore" angle, there was effectively no lore about the Charr in GW2 other than they were big bad evil monsters who wanted to kill everything.

Yes, the treaty between Ascalon/Kryta and the Charr was recently signed (at launch) but you have NPC's like Logan and Rytlock who knew each other beforehand, or places like Lion's Arch where these racial tensions basically didn't exist, or in the various Orders where all the races had worked to move past such things well before GW2 launched. There's still plenty of Charr-human racism in GW2, hell there's an NPC in the Maiden's Whisper whose repeating line involves her insinuating she'll kill any Charr that comes near her with a meat cleaver (which is laughable in and of itself but that's another tangent). There's tension. But it's not prevalent in the story, because it'd be a nightmare to write out. It also helps that the story entirely revolves around killing big threats that no single race can handle on its own, and there's nothing that brings people together like a common enemy, this is a well established fact.

BTW, the Searing is effectively ancient history by now. It happened over 250 years ago, your character's great-great grandparents wouldn't even remember it, and Charr characters currently alive would have had no hand in what their great-great-great-great-great-great grandsires did. It's entirely understandable that, unless your character was actually alive and living as a non-infant in Ebonhawke by the time the ceasefire happened, to tell you to drop the racist angle in-character.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:As for the norn Im already mad, The spirits are becoming a mastery FOR EVERYONE!? Why.

Human characters in Guild Wars Eye of the North had the possibility to be blessed by the Spirits of the Wild.

Still I don't feel its right considering how shafted the norn are, and have been. Why should I share one of the few things that heck only in lore really maters to my race? The humans don't share the six as masteries, the charr don't share their ranks as masteries. The asurans don't share their stuff nor do the Sylvari... Heck the sylvari had a WHOLE expansion with flair and depth poured onto them. Don't feel its really fair in the long run, but I know it doesn't matter either....

You do realize that you can literally learn the magical dirges of the Five as any race and with the proper artifacts anyone, even a Charr, can turn into a Avatar and has done so over the course of the personal story, right?

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@Loesh.4697 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:As for the norn Im already mad, The spirits are becoming a mastery FOR EVERYONE!? Why.

Human characters in Guild Wars Eye of the North had the possibility to be blessed by the Spirits of the Wild.

Still I don't feel its right considering how shafted the norn are, and have been. Why should I share one of the few things that heck only in lore really maters to my race? The humans don't share the six as masteries, the charr don't share their ranks as masteries. The asurans don't share their stuff nor do the Sylvari... Heck the sylvari had a WHOLE expansion with flair and depth poured onto them. Don't feel its really fair in the long run, but I know it doesn't matter either....

You do realize that you can literally learn the magical dirges of the Five as any race and with the proper artifacts anyone, even a Charr, can turn into a Avatar and has done so over the course of the personal story, right?

But none of that is permanent, none of its masteries. So it doesn't stand because this will be something we have till the end of Gw2; It's not like "Oh its only a story step, no worries its just this one time." It's legitamentally something that will be added in as features that we will use throughout the saga and potentially further depending on how they want to go about it. Until they do the same for the other races, Ill continue to be miffed.

Plus as I stated above, the norn have already been shafted up to this point.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:As for the norn Im already mad, The spirits are becoming a mastery FOR EVERYONE!? Why.

Human characters in Guild Wars Eye of the North had the possibility to be blessed by the Spirits of the Wild.

Still I don't feel its right considering how shafted the norn are, and have been. Why should I share one of the few things that heck only in lore really maters to my race? The humans don't share the six as masteries, the charr don't share their ranks as masteries. The asurans don't share their stuff nor do the Sylvari... Heck the sylvari had a WHOLE expansion with flair and depth poured onto them. Don't feel its really fair in the long run, but I know it doesn't matter either....

You do realize that you can literally learn the magical dirges of the Five as any race and with the proper artifacts anyone, even a Charr, can turn into a Avatar and has done so over the course of the personal story, right?

But none of that is permanent, none of its masteries. So it doesn't stand because this will be something we have till the end of Gw2; It's not like "Oh its only a story step, no worries its just this one time." It's legitamentally something that will be added in as features that we will use throughout the saga and potentially further depending on how they want to go about it. Until they do the same for the other races, Ill continue to be miffed.

Plus as I stated above, the norn have already been shafted up to this point.

They are literally, permanent masteries in the Ancient Magics tab so that doesn't hold water. You could even argue the drudic oakheart abilities and the Shining Blade Signets of Agony are totally human magics that other races can use as masteries.

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@"RyuuChi.1463" said:Are you actually just mad that Anet made a race 3-dimensional instead of just "kill everything and everyone"? I didn't finish GW1 but I sure as hell played it, even got through a decent chunk of EotN before life got busy and the game's mechanics got too tiring to deal with. Not to mention, marching on Orr and Kryta could be entirely written as "you took our land, we take yours". It's entirely believable for a race that in GW2, is presented as harsh and militarily focused, this all just reads like you're stuck in the past because of your roleplay. And the only way the Forefire would work in the first place is if Adelbern was absolutely deranged (because what sane king would condemn his people to live through eternity as wandering, angry spirits?), and narratively speaking it's either have the Ascalonians eternally stuck as ghosts, or have them all be wiped out because the Charr had vastly superior firepower in comparison with the exception of Ebonhawke, or you pull something out your butt that lets the humans kill the Charr entirely which is just asking for actual bad writing imo. At least this way you still get to see Ascalonians in the game, even as enemies. And miss me with the "established lore" angle, there was effectively no lore about the Charr in GW2 other than they were big bad evil monsters who wanted to kill everything.

Ah I see I seemingly struck a nerve. Care to explain how everyone sitting in a kumbaya circle is 3-dimensional? If anything the various relationships and geopolitical standings between races became far less interesting in GW2 due to the shift to Elder Dragons as the threat.

Yes, the treaty between Ascalon/Kryta and the Charr was recently signed (at launch) but you have NPC's like Logan and Rytlock who knew each other beforehand, or places like Lion's Arch where these racial tensions basically didn't exist, or in the various Orders where all the races had worked to move past such things well before GW2 launched. There's still plenty of Charr-human racism in GW2, hell there's an NPC in the Maiden's Whisper whose repeating line involves her insinuating she'll kill any Charr that comes near her with a meat cleaver (which is laughable in and of itself but that's another tangent). There's tension. But it's not prevalent in the story, because it'd be a nightmare to write out. It also helps that the story entirely revolves around killing big threats that no single race can handle on its own, and there's nothing that brings people together like a common enemy, this is a well established fact.

Yes I do believe I mentioned that being a likely limitation to game design and indeed a nightmare to write out all the possible branches. But unless community sentiment has changed, I believe people generally agree the Personal Story sucks.

BTW, the Searing is effectively ancient history by now. It happened over 250 years ago, your character's great-great grandparents wouldn't even remember it, and Charr characters currently alive would have had no hand in what their great-great-great-great-great-great grandsires did. It's entirely understandable that, unless your character was actually alive and living as a non-infant in Ebonhawke by the time the ceasefire happened, to tell you to drop the racist angle in-character.

I like how you're trying to reduce my points to "racist". No it's just that I don't buy that there wouldn't still be great distrust and conflict between these 2 particular races that isn't portrayed well within the game and personal story unless you hunt for it.

While The Searing itself would be not ancient history, but at least history from long ago like how we'd view the 1700's, the conflict itself is not.

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@Stramatus.5219 said:Ah I see I seemingly struck a nerve. Care to explain how everyone sitting in a kumbaya circle is 3-dimensional? If anything the various relationships and geopolitical standings between races became far less interesting in GW2 due to the shift to Elder Dragons as the threat.

Do I even have to go further than this strawman? Because that's what this is. It's a strawman. You aren't addressing the point, you're pretending I said everyone gets along, and pretending everyone gets along 100% of the time in GW2. They do not, as I stated.

Also you are not your character (even if you control them and roleplay them), and I specifically stated in-character when I wrote my post, something that happened 250 years ago is actual ancient history and your character is being racist if they're bringing it up constantly for pity-points or to justify their hate, which is implied by your guildmates telling you the Searing is ancient history and to get over it. Have you considered that maybe, the problem is that Guild Wars 1 happened in your relatively recent memory and you've projected that onto your character? Because there's legitimately no reason for you to bring up the Searing regularly otherwise.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:As for the norn Im already mad, The spirits are becoming a mastery FOR EVERYONE!? Why.

Human characters in Guild Wars Eye of the North had the possibility to be blessed by the Spirits of the Wild.

Still I don't feel its right considering how shafted the norn are, and have been. Why should I share one of the few things that heck only in lore really maters to my race? The humans don't share the six as masteries, the charr don't share their ranks as masteries. The asurans don't share their stuff nor do the Sylvari... Heck the sylvari had a WHOLE expansion with flair and depth poured onto them. Don't feel its really fair in the long run, but I know it doesn't matter either....

You do realize that you can literally learn the magical dirges of the Five as any race and with the proper artifacts anyone, even a Charr, can turn into a Avatar and has done so over the course of the personal story, right?

But none of that is permanent, none of its masteries. So it doesn't stand because this will be something we have till the end of Gw2; It's not like "Oh its only a story step, no worries its just this one time." It's legitamentally something that will be added in as features that we will use throughout the saga and potentially further depending on how they want to go about it. Until they do the same for the other races, Ill continue to be miffed.

Plus as I stated above, the norn have already been shafted up to this point.

They are literally, permanent masteries in the Ancient Magics tab so that doesn't hold water. You could even argue the drudic oakheart abilities and the Shining Blade Signets of Agony are totally human magics that other races can use as masteries.

I mean I guess you could go there, but we are more than likely going to get a mastery line for each of the spirits of the wild. I mean it would be equivalent of getting masteries of the Six; It does hold water. This is LITERALLY THE ENTIRETY that makes the race unique, and they have yet to hand off that kind of thing from the other races in any form. Obscure magics and orders aside, it still is kinda dumb to give away something that the norn themselves haven't been allowed to realize in game as of this point where as other races theme has been left relatively intact and un-touched.

As a norn player, one who was really excited to play a norn in guild wars when it was announced they would be playable. Coming from guild wars 1 and witnessing what they've done to the race, what they've denied us and what they will do going forward I can be upset. They haven't allowed us to really be norn but more just a hallow husk of a norn, we are just a big viking with tattoos but they have continuously forged and gone against what they were in the previous title (Excluding the very early portions of the living story. The only place where their culture was shown even in the slightest.)

the norn can't shapeshift, not outside of shitty skills that have been horrible since I can't remember when. They don't have the blessings of the spirits nor do we have a way to obtain them or we didn't until now; I feel like this is a real slug in the gut though. It would be fine if we had more for the norn customization wise, and had been given more of our racial identity as a unique perk for our chosen race. (Charr are unique as are asuran by appearance, sylvari glow and also hold a unique appearance.) The norn however don't get that we get to look like giant humans; With tattoos and while tattoos are cool they don't hold up to what we had been shown in our introduction to them. These were powerful beings capable of becoming even more so by transformation, and were a force to be reckoned with and the lore backs this up 100% but it fails to be shown or witnessed in guild wars 2. And most players here don't pay attention to the lore, or the story really at least not alot of the ones I've met in game (The forum goers are a different beast.)

I just want more polish and more unique things for the norn, I want them to stand out beside their fellow tyrians and not be ... I guess as they have been left to be. Because its sad how something so cool thematically has been dropped and left abandoned. (I remember choosing bear for my warrior, specifically to become a werebear and wreak havoc on the battlefield... sadly I learned that would be impossible.)

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@RyuuChi.1463 said:

@Stramatus.5219 said:Ah I see I seemingly struck a nerve. Care to explain how everyone sitting in a kumbaya circle is 3-dimensional? If anything the various relationships and geopolitical standings between races became far less interesting in GW2 due to the shift to Elder Dragons as the threat.

Do I even have to go further than this strawman? Because that's what this is. It's a strawman. You aren't addressing the point, you're pretending I said everyone gets along, and pretending everyone gets along 100% of the time in GW2. They do not, as I stated.

Also you are not your character (even if you control them and roleplay them), and I specifically stated in-character when I wrote my post, something that happened 250 years ago is actual ancient history and your character is being racist if they're bringing it up constantly for pity-points or to justify their hate, which is implied by your guildmates telling you the Searing is ancient history and to get over it. Have you considered that maybe, the problem is that Guild Wars 1 happened in your relatively recent memory and you've projected that onto your character? Because there's legitimately no reason for you to bring up the Searing regularly otherwise.

Considering how you started your last post you have literally no room to talk about strawmanning, and this post isn't helping matters. Someone bringing up the Searing isn't automatically racist or even out for pity points, hell it doesn't even have to be brought up to justify hate. It's pointing out that Charr society as it was structured then, as it is structured now, can easily be used in order to pull off some large scale disasters. You could, very reasonably, even take this very event and say that while the Charr aren't worshiping Jormag they are definitely doing this for similar reasons as before. The Legions fear of a loss of control and need to dominate the battlefield caused a splinter of them to try and draw power from an Elder Dragon AGAIN, it'd be crazy if people didn't bring up the obvious parallels to previous events.

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@Loesh.4697 said:Considering how you started your last post you have literally no room to talk about strawmanning, and this post isn't helping matters.My post started with hyperbole that my post further broke down as it went on. With all due possible respect, read the whole post next time instead of focusing on the first sentence, because I did explain my stance as I went on and actually addressed the points.

No, bringing up the Searing isn't automatically racist because it's a historical event that characters in-game even go so far as to study, but if your Guildmates are, in-character as a roleplayer, are telling you to drop it because it's ancient history, it sounds to me less like offhand comments and more repeatedly using it to get some kind of pity or justification for some type of hatred. You don't just bring up the Searing out of the blue for funsies, there's usually a reason, and their guildmates reaction implies this.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

I mean I guess you could go there, but we are more than likely going to get a mastery line for each of the spirits of the wild. I mean it would be equivalent of getting masteries of the Six; It does hold water. This is LITERALLY THE ENTIRETY that makes the race unique, and they have yet to hand off that kind of thing from the other races in any form. Obscure magics and orders aside, it still is kinda dumb to give away something that the norn themselves haven't been allowed to realize in game as of this point where as other races theme has been left relatively intact and un-touched.

As a norn player, one who was really excited to play a norn in guild wars when it was announced they would be playable. Coming from guild wars 1 and witnessing what they've done to the race, what they've denied us and what they will do going forward I can be upset. They haven't allowed us to really be norn but more just a hallow husk of a norn, we are just a big viking with tattoos but they have continuously forged and gone against what they were in the previous title (Excluding the very early portions of the living story. The only place where their culture was shown even in the slightest.)

the norn can't shapeshift, not outside of kitten skills that have been horrible since I can't remember when. They don't have the blessings of the spirits nor do we have a way to obtain them or we didn't until now; I feel like this is a real slug in the gut though. It would be fine if we had more for the norn customization wise, and had been given more of our racial identity as a unique perk for our chosen race. (Charr are unique as are asuran by appearance, sylvari glow and also hold a unique appearance.) The norn however don't get that we get to look like giant humans; With tattoos and while tattoos are cool they don't hold up to what we had been shown in our introduction to them. These were powerful beings capable of becoming even more so by transformation, and were a force to be reckoned with and the lore backs this up 100% but it fails to be shown or witnessed in guild wars 2. And most players here don't pay attention to the lore, or the story really at least not alot of the ones I've met in game (The forum goers are a different beast.)

I just want more polish and more unique things for the norn, I want them to stand out beside their fellow tyrians and not be ... I guess as they have been left to be. Because its sad how something so cool thematically has been dropped and left abandoned. (I remember choosing bear for my warrior, specifically to become a werebear and wreak havoc on the battlefield... sadly I learned that would be impossible.)

Look Thornwolf, I understand, I really do. I sympathize even, i'd reach through the internet and give you a hug right now if I could. What they did to Braham and Eir is pathetic, Norn representation deserves more then this drunken caricature. I also dislike that unlike Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire the Norn have to share their primary story with the Charr, maybe even have the Charr take their spotlight. I really liked Guild Wars 1 Norn, they were drunk and dumb sometimes yes, but it was tempered an admirable sense of adventure and personal pride that made them the ultimate manifestation of the individual. Even how their interacted with the spirits as something to be revered, rather then worshiped, spoke of how Norn ultimately only answered to Norn and it was the strength of their people that sustained them.

At the same time, do you need to take it out on human players? Our situations are more similar then you think. We've had certain elements of our faith either ripped out or dumbed down over the expansions, expanded occasionally on in the Living World, but not as much as I would like. If you're a human follower of Balthazar you don't get a SINGLE LINE OF DIALOGUE about the God of War, not one, and more then anyone you should be talking to them. I'm not happy that I can't play a Dervish or Paragon, use avatar forms despite them still clearly existing lorewise, but those are the breaks. We're both limited by gameplay, the most I can get is the underpowered elite spec skills that I can't use in Arena anyway.

I'm not saying you're stupid, or even entirely wrong, just that it's less black and white then humans just being the center of the story.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

I mean I guess you could go there, but we are more than likely going to get a mastery line for each of the spirits of the wild. I mean it would be equivalent of getting masteries of the Six; It does hold water. This is LITERALLY THE ENTIRETY that makes the race unique, and they have yet to hand off that kind of thing from the other races in any form. Obscure magics and orders aside, it still is kinda dumb to give away something that the norn themselves haven't been allowed to realize in game as of this point where as other races theme has been left relatively intact and un-touched.

As a norn player, one who was really excited to play a norn in guild wars when it was announced they would be playable. Coming from guild wars 1 and witnessing what they've done to the race, what they've denied us and what they will do going forward I can be upset. They haven't allowed us to really be norn but more just a hallow husk of a norn, we are just a big viking with tattoos but they have continuously forged and gone against what they were in the previous title (Excluding the very early portions of the living story. The only place where their culture was shown even in the slightest.)

the norn can't shapeshift, not outside of kitten skills that have been horrible since I can't remember when. They don't have the blessings of the spirits nor do we have a way to obtain them or we didn't until now; I feel like this is a real slug in the gut though. It would be fine if we had more for the norn customization wise, and had been given more of our racial identity as a unique perk for our chosen race. (Charr are unique as are asuran by appearance, sylvari glow and also hold a unique appearance.) The norn however don't get that we get to look like giant humans; With tattoos and while tattoos are cool they don't hold up to what we had been shown in our introduction to them. These were powerful beings capable of becoming even more so by transformation, and were a force to be reckoned with and the lore backs this up 100% but it fails to be shown or witnessed in guild wars 2. And most players here don't pay attention to the lore, or the story really at least not alot of the ones I've met in game (The forum goers are a different beast.)

I just want more polish and more unique things for the norn, I want them to stand out beside their fellow tyrians and not be ... I guess as they have been left to be. Because its sad how something so cool thematically has been dropped and left abandoned. (I remember choosing bear for my warrior, specifically to become a werebear and wreak havoc on the battlefield... sadly I learned that would be impossible.)

Look Thornwolf, I understand, I really do. I sympathize even, i'd reach through the internet and give you a
hug
right now if I could. What they did to Braham and Eir is pathetic, Norn representation deserves more then this drunken caricature. I also dislike that unlike Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire the Norn have to share their primary story with the Charr, maybe even have the Charr take their spotlight. I really liked Guild Wars 1 Norn, they were drunk and dumb sometimes yes, but it was tempered an admirable sense of adventure and personal pride that made them the ultimate manifestation of the individual. Even how their interacted with the spirits as something to be revered, rather then worshiped, spoke of how Norn ultimately only answered to Norn and it was the strength of their people that sustained them.

At the same time, do you need to take it out on human players? Our situations are more similar then you think. We've had certain elements of our faith either ripped out or dumbed down over the expansions, expanded occasionally on in the Living World, but not as much as I would like. If you're a human follower of Balthazar you don't get a SINGLE LINE OF DIALOGUE about the God of War, not one, and more then anyone you should be talking to them. I'm not happy that I can't play a Dervish or Paragon, use avatar forms despite them still clearly existing lorewise, but those are the breaks. We're both limited by gameplay, the most I can get is the underpowered elite spec skills that I can't use in Arena anyway.

I'm not saying you're stupid, or even entirely wrong, just that it's less black and white then humans just being the center of the story.

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was angry at the human players, I guess I just know norn are the unwanted children of A-net. They probably dislike even adding them to the pool of playable races. That said I never realized how bad it was for the humans, and now im more irritated at the charr who not only get to have the cool aesthetic of being one. The cool center focal point from rytlock and now they get to share (Yea... steal) the norns story with jormag; So maybe Im more alongside you as I originally anticipated... Kindred spirits and all that.

Truly... the humans have their god forms, the norn their werebeast forms and neither get to be used and A-net just laughs about it. I guess you guys do understand what us norn players feel, thanks for reminding me of just how much the humans have had stripped away from them.

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It's still not even the Searing. The charr still prosecuted the war after the Searing and after they had overthrown the Flame Legion.

My previous point still stands, there are no charr who really regret what charr did during the Searing and afterwards (Or go "IT WAS THE FLAME LEGION ALL THEM"), whilst there are plenty of humans who have regrets about similar atrocities that humans have committed (Even if they were not even directly involved/affected or even of the same nation).

This is just the character of their race, and I don't get why people can't just accept that and instead need to find a way that the charr are somehow 'justified' in performing those atrocities, when if it was the humans they would be roundly criticised and lambasted.

It's called double standards and I see it in full effect when it comes to charr and humans.

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@"Loesh.4697" said:At the same time, do you need to take it out on human players? Our situations are more similar then you think. We've had certain elements of our faith either ripped out or dumbed down over the expansions, expanded occasionally on in the Living World, but not as much as I would like. If you're a human follower of Balthazar you don't get a SINGLE LINE OF DIALOGUE about the God of War, not one, and more then anyone you should be talking to them. I'm not happy that I can't play a Dervish or Paragon, use avatar forms despite them still clearly existing lorewise, but those are the breaks. We're both limited by gameplay, the most I can get is the underpowered elite spec skills that I can't use in Arena anyway.

I'm not saying you're stupid, or even entirely wrong, just that it's less black and white then humans just being the center of the story.

unfortunately the current Tyria is drawn as a world based on a tragic existentialism (whether intentional or accidental I don't know), so it is not surprising that all races are drawn as erratic or dumber. In this kind of existentialism, which may be called epicurianism, the gods have abandoned us, the world was "created by the chaos" and has no big purpose, we exist merely because we think we exist so we be anything we think we can be.. this is unfortunately a very anti-theist setup and cosmology..... Particularly I do not like existentialism, I am just recognizing how the world of Tyria was designed. For those like us, who are into Gods related lore is a really bad news....

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@RyuuChi.1463 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:Considering how you started your last post you have literally no room to talk about strawmanning, and this post isn't helping matters.My post started with hyperbole that my post further broke down as it went on. With all due possible respect, read the whole post next time instead of focusing on the first sentence, because I did explain my stance as I went on and actually addressed the points.

No, bringing up the Searing isn't automatically racist because it's a historical event that characters in-game even go so far as to study, but if your Guildmates are, in-character as a roleplayer, are telling you to drop it because it's ancient history, it sounds to me less like offhand comments and more repeatedly using it to get some kind of pity or justification for some type of hatred. You don't just bring up the Searing out of the blue for funsies, there's usually a reason, and their guildmates reaction implies this.

First impressions color everything you say after, and your hyperbole definitely did whether you think you did a good job doing a breakdown or not. Strums post wasn't hostile towards anyone in particular, even the way they framed the conversation with their guild was detached and matter of fact, and didn't warrant the response you gave it. Even some things you provided AFTER that are questionable in tone.

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@RyuuChi.1463 said:

@"Loesh.4697" said:Considering how you started your last post you have literally no room to talk about strawmanning, and this post isn't helping matters.My post started with hyperbole that my post further broke down as it went on. With all due possible respect, read the whole post next time instead of focusing on the first sentence, because I did explain my stance as I went on and actually addressed the points.

No, bringing up the Searing isn't automatically racist because it's a historical event that characters in-game even go so far as to study, but if your Guildmates are, in-character as a roleplayer, are telling you to drop it because it's ancient history, it sounds to me less like offhand comments and more repeatedly using it to get some kind of pity or justification for some type of hatred. You don't just bring up the Searing out of the blue for funsies, there's usually a reason, and their guildmates reaction implies this.

No, the comment about guildmates refers to them (most of who I also played with in GW1), then making Charr characters in GW2 and perpetuating the dolyaksh*t narrative of "retaking a homeland" which they know better about lore than to keep spouting. You're focusing too much on The Searing and trying to paint me as just saying "hay guise hur dur the searing!!!11!". My point about that was to point out how far the Charr were willing to go on a campaign of genocide and the fact that they were willing to take that to lands outside of Ascalon that had nothing to do with the Ascalon/Charr conflict. They've since moved away from the Shaman Caste of the Flame Legion, but they still have built up a big technological industrial war machine and as a society continue to live in a very war-centric manner.

My point is that it feels like a huge disconnect to me that we as a human player character are not given the option to feel much more distrusting of the Charr considering that has been their history up until barely a few years ago in-game timeline. Everyone is "best buds" (Rytlock and Logan aside) and that doesn't feel realistic to me within the established timeline, putting aside my opinions on the Ascalon/Charr conflict. The whole history of the Charr is one of conflict within themselves or against others be it the Humans, the Ogres, The Grawl, or The Forgotton.

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@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:It's still not even the Searing. The charr still prosecuted the war after the Searing and after they had overthrown the Flame Legion.

My previous point still stands, there are no charr who really regret what charr did during the Searing and afterwards (Or go "IT WAS THE FLAME LEGION ALL THEM"), whilst there are plenty of humans who have regrets about similar atrocities that humans have committed (Even if they were not even directly involved/affected or even of the same nation).

This is just the character of their race, and I don't get why people can't just accept that and instead need to find a way that the charr are somehow 'justified' in performing those atrocities, when if it was the humans they would be roundly criticised and lambasted.

It's called double standards and I see it in full effect when it comes to charr and humans.Charr are raised in a military hierarchy and given military training from a young age. The majority of their race is military minded. In the case of military history, one could look at the Searing as a major military victory due to how it allowed the Charr to get a foothold back into Ascalon (despite the destruction caused). The Charr do point out however that the Flame Legion shamans were the ones that actually did the Searing (as they were the only ones with the magic to pull it off). The Olmakhan would likely think differently of the events due to how they're more at one with nature, but nobody's asked them.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was angry at the human players, I guess I just know norn are the unwanted children of A-net. They probably dislike even adding them to the pool of playable races. That said I never realized how bad it was for the humans, and now im more irritated at the charr who not only get to have the cool aesthetic of being one. The cool center focal point from rytlock and now they get to share (Yea... steal) the norns story with jormag; So maybe Im more alongside you as I originally anticipated... Kindred spirits and all that.

Truly... the humans have their god forms, the norn their werebeast forms and neither get to be used and A-net just laughs about it. I guess you guys do understand what us norn players feel, thanks for reminding me of just how much the humans have had stripped away from them.

If it helps you feel better, I feel like Anet is really trying to be aware of Norn this time around, even if it seems like they're doing a bad job of it right now. Yes how Braham behaved is a tired sterotype this episode, but I feel like the fact it was played for seriousness rather then just comedy indicates the rest of the Saga for Braham is going to be about trying to do something other then get drunk and party, he'll be rejoining his old hunting party at the Vigil camp and I doubt the next episode is going to be as lighthearted as this one.

I think Anet is more unaware of things at times, rather then deliberately laughing at or being malicious to the playerbase, which is why threads like these are important. They let Anet know what people are talking about and what they want, they even got a response from someone on the development team. Hopefully from here on in they keep in mind that the Norn want to play a big hand in this plot too.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was angry at the human players, I guess I just know norn are the unwanted children of A-net. They probably dislike even adding them to the pool of playable races. That said I never realized how bad it was for the humans, and now im more irritated at the charr who not only get to have the cool aesthetic of being one. The cool center focal point from rytlock and now they get to share (Yea... steal) the norns story with jormag; So maybe Im more alongside you as I originally anticipated... Kindred spirits and all that.

Truly... the humans have their god forms, the norn their werebeast forms and neither get to be used and A-net just laughs about it. I guess you guys do understand what us norn players feel, thanks for reminding me of just how much the humans have had stripped away from them.

If it helps you feel better, I feel like Anet is really trying to be aware of Norn this time around, even if it seems like they're doing a bad job of it right now. Yes how Braham behaved is a tired sterotype this episode, but I feel like the fact it was played for seriousness rather then just comedy indicates the rest of the Saga for Braham is going to be about trying to do something other then get drunk and party, he'll be rejoining his old hunting party at the Vigil camp and I doubt the next episode is going to be as lighthearted as this one.

I think Anet is more unaware of things at times, rather then deliberately laughing at or being malicious to the playerbase, which is why threads like these are important. They let Anet know what people are talking about and what they want, they even got a response from someone on the development team. Hopefully from here on in they keep in mind that the Norn want to play a big hand in this plot too.

I hope so. Because jormag is the main antagonist of the norn, one that was teased when we started our long journey what seems like eons ago. I don't want to have the charr steal this one from the norn; Id love for the norn to get back to their roots and for them to give the playerbase the norn as we know them. Both play-ably and in the narrative but its just hard to have faith, Given all that has happened to all of us.

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Gotta love how Braham "isn't norn enough". Especially when he reacted badly to a person telling him to drop an artifact that could crack the tooth of Jormag and make his (and his mother's) legend immortal. But nah, that's not being a norn. A young norn seeing a chance to become an immortal legend and being told to stop and go home, of course they'll react badly. It's almost as bad as the people who scream "Norn are individualistic, therefore Eir isn't being a Norn because she joined destiny's edge!" But... she founded it, and isn't the thing "individualistic" meaning they don't conform to any one type or shame somebody for choosing a path? The Norn, whose goal is to be known for doing something well. Whether that be by being the best smith in the shiverpeaks, the best storytelling, the best hunter, or for defeating dragons! Of course, let us hate a norn for not being enough of a norn... because the PC actively tried holding him back and he refused. And then he nearly got to Jormag before our actions stole that from him, and made him feel like he failed his guild, the spirits, everything.

Also, GW2 norn aren't smaller, gutted GW1 norn. It's just we see a hell of a lot more of their culture and people in GW2 then we ever did in GW1. If you cry about them being drunken laughing stocks, that's because that's all you bother to look at. Gameplay does not equal lore, otherwise we'd mostly be playing Norn for immense stat buffs lol. And they are the same size as in GW1. It's just we see greater variety of height now.

As for the "dolyakcrud of retaking the homeland." I don't recall the charr in GW2... ever talking about Orr, or Kryta. They only say that in regards to Ascalon. And guess what, there is no evidence they planned to use the searing on Kryta or Orr, especially since they were totally crushing the Orrian military without real effort. You could suspect they may have had it ready to use in Orr because there are searing cauldrens there, but we don't know that they planned to use them.

Charr don't feel sorry/hate the searing, but they also don't want to use it again. Hell the searing cauldron in Ascalon, you have a CHARR wanting it destroyed, broken apart and melted down rather then leaving it there, even "drained" of power. It's a priory human who wants it to remain intact.

Likewise, why would they feel sorry for it. It simply broke the wall. Yes it killed people and damaged the land, but it didn't cause mutations or horrible suffering. It was a weapon used to break the defensive line of a foe. Hell, from their perspective, Adelbern did far more damage to his own people with the foefire. The searing just killed you, or didn't kill you. (And Adelbern was shown to be mad in early post-searing, trying to murder a Krytan who was there simply to offer help).

The Charr and Ascalonians saw each other as invading foes hell-bent on their destruction. The searing was a major blow against the Ascalon lines, allowing the Charr to finally start taking the upper hand. Hell, if we really want to look at it. The Charr are the single race that has stood up against humanity's expansion and pushes, fought back, and took back their area. Did they do horrific things? hell yes. But don't dare be screaming about how the Charr are the evil ones if you fully support the idea of humanity pushing the Charr back out of Ascalon, slaughtering or forcing them to retreat.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:Gotta love how Braham "isn't norn enough". Especially when he reacted badly to a person telling him to drop an artifact that could crack the tooth of Jormag and make his (and his mother's) legend immortal. But nah, that's not being a norn. A young norn seeing a chance to become an immortal legend and being told to stop and go home, of course they'll react badly. It's almost as bad as the people who scream "Norn are individualistic, therefore Eir isn't being a Norn because she joined destiny's edge!" But... she founded it, and isn't the thing "individualistic" meaning they don't conform to any one type or shame somebody for choosing a path? The Norn, whose goal is to be known for doing something well. Whether that be by being the best smith in the shiverpeaks, the best storytelling, the best hunter, or for defeating dragons! Of course, let us hate a norn for not being enough of a norn... because the PC actively tried holding him back and he refused. And then he nearly got to Jormag before our actions stole that from him, and made him feel like he failed his guild, the spirits, everything.

Also, GW2 norn aren't smaller, gutted GW1 norn. It's just we see a hell of a lot more of their culture and people in GW2 then we ever did in GW1. If you cry about them being drunken laughing stocks, that's because that's all you bother to look at. Gameplay does not equal lore, otherwise we'd mostly be playing Norn for immense stat buffs lol. And they are the same size as in GW1. It's just we see greater variety of height now.

As for the "dolyakcrud of retaking the homeland." I don't recall the charr in GW2... ever talking about Orr, or Kryta. They only say that in regards to Ascalon. And guess what, there is no evidence they planned to use the searing on Kryta or Orr, especially since they were totally crushing the Orrian military without real effort. You could suspect they may have had it ready to use in Orr because there are searing cauldrens there, but we don't know that they planned to use them.

Charr don't feel sorry/hate the searing, but they also don't want to use it again. Hell the searing cauldron in Ascalon, you have a CHARR wanting it destroyed, broken apart and melted down rather then leaving it there, even "drained" of power. It's a priory human who wants it to remain intact.

Likewise, why would they feel sorry for it. It simply broke the wall. Yes it killed people and damaged the land, but it didn't cause mutations or horrible suffering. It was a weapon used to break the defensive line of a foe. Hell, from their perspective, Adelbern did far more damage to his own people with the foefire. The searing just killed you, or didn't kill you. (And Adelbern was shown to be mad in early post-searing, trying to murder a Krytan who was there simply to offer help).

The Charr and Ascalonians saw each other as invading foes hell-bent on their destruction. The searing was a major blow against the Ascalon lines, allowing the Charr to finally start taking the upper hand. Hell, if we really want to look at it. The Charr are the single race that has stood up against humanity's expansion and pushes, fought back, and took back their area. Did they do horrific things? hell yes. But don't dare be screaming about how the Charr are the evil ones if you fully support the idea of humanity pushing the Charr back out of Ascalon, slaughtering or forcing them to retreat.

Would be instresting if somehow in guild wars 1 the human character you paly stopped the searing oh what changes that would do to history and it would deal a blow to the shaman charr's promis of victory and may caused a splitering of the legion earlier awith Ascalon still standing as a nation and the great wall standing as provef that walls work cannot defeat your foes on the battle field do it from a wall. Ascalon still standing would leave the charr still at war with Ascalon and bitter that they still did not win.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:As for the "dolyakcrud of retaking the homeland." I don't recall the charr in GW2... ever talking about Orr, or Kryta. They only say that in regards to Ascalon. And guess what, there is no evidence they planned to use the searing on Kryta or Orr, especially since they were totally crushing the Orrian military without real effort. You could suspect they may have had it ready to use in Orr because there are searing cauldrens there, but we don't know that they planned to use them.

I could be forgetting as it's been a long time since I've played it, but I could have sworn the Bonus Mission where you play as Saul D'Allessio showed Searing cauldrons? Then again, maybe not. Like I said, I don't remember. To suggest they weren't going to use them is plausible, but they had them there (confirmed for Orr at least) regardless. It was always an option. Considering at the time that the campaign became one of human eradication, I wouldn't put it past them.

Charr don't feel sorry/hate the searing, but they also don't want to use it again. Hell the searing cauldron in Ascalon, you have a CHARR wanting it destroyed, broken apart and melted down rather then leaving it there, even "drained" of power. It's a priory human who wants it to remain intact.

Is that part of the Charr personal story or perhaps NPC dialogue I missed in that area of Iron Marches?

Likewise, why would they feel sorry for it. It simply broke the wall. Yes it killed people and damaged the land, but it didn't cause mutations or horrible suffering. It was a weapon used to break the defensive line of a foe. Hell, from their perspective, Adelbern did far more damage to his own people with the foefire. The searing just killed you, or didn't kill you. (And Adelbern was shown to be mad in early post-searing, trying to murder a Krytan who was there simply to offer help).

What? The Searing completely blasted and destroyed all of Ascalon. It didn't just "break a wall". The land was completely scorched, the rivers and lakes dried up or turned into a purple ooze. Plantlife was all but destroyed throughout the entire land-area of Ascalon. Presumably hundreds or thousands (not sure what the population number of the kingdom of Ascalon would have been) were killed. And all throughout Ascalon (in GW1 at least) are Searing crystals embedded into the land, some bigger than others. Not sure why you are completely downplaying what the event was.

As for Adelbern and the Foefire. I will agree that to the people of Ascalon it is a fate that is ultimately worse than death. Adelbern and the Foefire will get no defense from me.

The Charr and Ascalonians saw each other as invading foes hell-bent on their destruction. The searing was a major blow against the Ascalon lines, allowing the Charr to finally start taking the upper hand. Hell, if we really want to look at it. The Charr are the single race that has stood up against humanity's expansion and pushes, fought back, and took back their area. Did they do horrific things? hell yes. But don't dare be screaming about how the Charr are the evil ones if you fully support the idea of humanity pushing the Charr back out of Ascalon, slaughtering or forcing them to retreat.

I'm not at all saying the humans are without fault here. It would be one thing if they settled the lands below the Great Northern Wall and left it at that, but they didn't. They expanded north well beyond the wall and forced Charr out. No one would say the humans are without their own faults in this conflict. The issue is the Charr escalated the conflict big time. Ultimately Ascalon was reduced to a smoldering heap of scorched earth, and then the outcomes of Orr and Kryta were changed forever.

Edit: Another thing. What's up with those war plans on a war table in the Black Citadel that is clearly a map of Queensdale and the gate of Divinity's Reach?

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Um, as a matter of fact the Searing broke everything BUT the wall, which is how Adelbern held out for thirty more years, the Searing hadn't completely destroyed it's main target but instead reduced everything around to ash. According the Flameseeker Prophecies it's estimated this rain of fire lasted for three days and three nights too, and those Searing Crystals absolutely mutated the local animals, like the Windriders which were harvested for researching Ereudine Elixer in Serenity Temple.

As for the Searing Cauldron in the Iron Marches, it's worth noting that the Charr is anxious about the Cauldron because he's worried that the Flame Legion will use that magic on a Charr village.

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@Telwyn.1630 said:Would be instresting if somehow in guild wars 1 the human character you paly stopped the searing oh what changes that would do to history and it would deal a blow to the shaman charr's promis of victory and may caused a splitering of the legion earlier awith Ascalon still standing as a nation and the great wall standing as provef that walls work cannot defeat your foes on the battle field do it from a wall. Ascalon still standing would leave the charr still at war with Ascalon and bitter that they still did not win.

Being honest as somebody who loves toying with alternate timelines and stuff, if the searing was stopped (and was stopped every time the Charr tried casting it near the wall at least), much of history would change.

Krytan's monarchy wouldn't crumble, and the white mantle would never come to power. Orr would remain intact, while still being a weak military, it may grow stronger. Eventually the issues between Kryta and Ascalon may resolve, but that's a huge maybe.

@"Stramatus.5219" said:

Charr don't feel sorry/hate the searing, but they also don't want to use it again. Hell the searing cauldron in Ascalon, you have a CHARR wanting it destroyed, broken apart and melted down rather then leaving it there, even "drained" of power. It's a priory human who wants it to remain intact.

Is that part of the Charr personal story or perhaps NPC dialogue I missed in that area of Iron Marches?

It's at the original searing cauldren in Ascalon, occasionally there is an event to stop flame legion from trying to reactivate it.

Likewise, why would they feel sorry for it. It simply broke the wall. Yes it killed people and damaged the land, but it didn't cause mutations or horrible suffering. It was a weapon used to break the defensive line of a foe. Hell, from their perspective, Adelbern did far more damage to his own people with the foefire. The searing just killed you, or didn't kill you. (And Adelbern was shown to be mad in early post-searing, trying to murder a Krytan who was there simply to offer help).

What? The Searing completely blasted and destroyed all of Ascalon. It didn't just "break a wall". The land was completely scorched, the rivers and lakes dried up or turned into a purple ooze. Plantlife was all but destroyed throughout the entire land-area of Ascalon. Presumably hundreds or thousands (not sure what the population number of the kingdom of Ascalon would have been) were killed. And all throughout Ascalon (in GW1 at least) are Searing crystals embedded into the land, some bigger than others. Not sure whjy you are completely downplaying what the event was.

At the time, yes. But Ascalon has basically made a complete recovery. There was no long lasting, permanant damage to the land that prevents people from living them. Compare it to a nuke, which can cause the region to experiance issues and possibly be unlivable.

To a Charr in the present day, they wouldn't look around and go "Damn, the Searing caused so much suffering." They'd look around and see the broken wall as being the lasting legacy of the searing. Nobody alive besides the ghosts would remember what the land was like back then.

Edit: Another thing. What's up with those war plans on a war table in the Black Citadel that is clearly a map of Queensdale and the gate of Divinity's Reach?

I always took it as generic maps being laid out. Iron legion was the one who extended the hand of peace, twice toward humanity. First time pirates sabotaged it by stealing the relics and the new human prince escalated the conflict around Ebonhawke. Second time They got humanity to return the Claw of the Khan-ur, likely Smodur's chip to get Ash onboard with it (and blood, somewhat). Either way, Charr are known for having backup plans. They have an entire defense tactic in place should the Asura gate be used for invasion after all.

We know the legions basically canceled all attacks on Kryta or other regions after the first big push post searing, and focused entirely on Ebonhawke.

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I'm not sure saying 'At the time' is exactly the best defense of the Charr. They unleashed demons on the land, turned it to an arid wasteland, and indeed said demons consumed the souls of their own and their enemies in the service of their conquest. One doesn't need to see the physical effects of something done in the past to feel empathy, not unless they have numbed it themselves. The mentality of their culture is monstrous, and to be completely blunt the destruction of their empire and pushing them back north seemed to be an objective positive for literally everyone they lived around. Saying they're good because they 'Stood up to human expansion' doesn't mean much when they were upset about a challenge to their own colonial plans, where the motivations of humans tended to be more mixed in terms of conquest, migration, or even trying to actively improve the world around them. Humans expanded with the notion of turning Tyria into a paradise, and that paradise held room for other races and nature despite Balthazar's urgings, Melandru and Dwayna would see it no other way. Charr expanded based on the notion of conquest, enslaving and destroying all who opposed their supremacy, and it paints as much even in GW2's own description of them in Ecology.

With all due respect it feels like you're whitewashing how evil the Legions used to be, and to an extent still are. Their motto is 'Victory at any cost' not 'Victory so long as we're morally upright', notions of honor and valor exist in Charr society but they are twisted towards the Legions own milliterisic bent, and that's come to a head in Icebrood where their fascist undertones have become explicit rather then background dressing. I find it highly unlikely the Legions would withold from using the Searing Cauldrons to defeat their enemies if they trusted magic to work for them and had the ability to invoke it, instead the expulsion of the Flame Legion in the aftermath of Kalla's death robbed them of the capacity to use dark magic to their own ends. They are unable, not unwilling.

I also don't believe for a nano-second that someone like Bangar or his cronies would withhold conquering Kryta or any other territory if they had the means within their grasp. This isn't a new development either, Charr exceptionalism has existed for over a thousand years and many believe that Tyria is their right as the superior species. He's been biding his time, as they all have, if Ebonhawke fell then the rest of the human nations would be next. The Olmakhan said it themselves, Charr society had organized itself around death and warfare, they would continue to conquer and destroy until they were the only ones left, and then they would kill each other too.

Of Tyria's assembled nations the Legions have the must unsustainable, they've been the most unsustainable for awhile, and the center cannot hold.

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