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About the Charr victim complex, and Anet's hatred for Ascalon


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@"Loesh.4697" said:I'm not sure saying 'At the time' is exactly the best defense of the Charr. They unleashed demons on the land, turned it to an arid wasteland, and indeed said demons consumed the souls of their own and their enemies in the service of their conquest. One doesn't need to see the physical effects of something done in the past to feel empathy, not unless they have numbed it themselves. The mentality of their culture is monstrous, and to be completely blunt the destruction of their empire and pushing them back north seemed to be an objective positive for literally everyone they lived around. Saying they're good because they 'Stood up to human expansion' doesn't mean much when they were upset about a challenge to their own colonial plans, where the motivations of humans tended to be more mixed in terms of conquest, migration, or even trying to actively improve the world around them. Humans expanded with the notion of turning Tyria into a paradise, and that paradise held room for other races and nature despite Balthazar's urgings, Melandru and Dwayna would see it no other way. Charr expanded based on the notion of conquest, enslaving and destroying all who opposed their supremacy, and it paints as much even in GW2's own description of them in Ecology.

Blaming all charr for titan release when it was just flame legion, and in general the titans are viewed poorly by all modern charr. They turned it into a wasteland, yes, but they also helped heal the damages done and return it to life. The titans consumed souls at times yes, but literally nobody knows this detail in universe. As pointed out, the time a charr learned what the titans were doing, it was after he died.

The funny thing is, as far as we can actually see the Charr didn't even try expanding past the region of Ascalon, until humanity attacked them. Then when the Charr finally got a really good push (the searing) they invaded the other two nations. The mentality of the Charr culture is actually changing however, and Iron legion is at the head of that. The Charr are changing, and we see that all over Grothmar. Equal parts for cooperation and peace, and old ways and violence.

Also, I once again never said they are "good" for fighting back. Just pointing out that of the many races and cultures humanity has forcibly shoved aside or destroyed, the Charr are the one who managed to retake what they had before humanity came and kicked them down. Also we have not heard anything indicating the Charr were actively pushing to take more land. IIRC, they described Ascalon explicitly as being hunting grounds. Not "Tyria", Ascalon.

If humans were making Tyria a paradise for many races, I wonder why they actively displaced, enslaved, or sought to wipe out numerous other races. Charr took ascalon, and were there a while before humanity came in and kicked them out. Yes, the charr have been a war-driven race, but we have seen them start to change. We see easily that Charr can cooperate with other races entirely, and have strong agriculture.

With all due respect it feels like you're whitewashing how evil the Legions used to be, and to an extent still are. Their motto is 'Victory at any cost' not 'Victory so long as we're morally upright', notions of honor and valor exist in Charr society but they are twisted towards the Legions own milliterisic bent, and that's come to a head in Icebrood where their fascist undertones have become explicit rather then background dressing. I find it highly unlikely the Legions would withold from using the Searing Cauldrons to defeat their enemies if they trusted magic to work for them and had the ability to invoke it, instead the expulsion of the Flame Legion in the aftermath of Kalla's death robbed them of the capacity to use dark magic to their own ends. They are unable, not unwilling.

I feel like you are washing the Charr as still being totally evil and brutal, like they were in GW1 despite obvious signs that Charr society has changed, and is continuing to change.

I'd completely point out that the Charr are unwilling. You don't get "unable but not unwilling" from factions who would rather rely on tech and physical might over magic and magical artifacts. And again, they know exactly were one is, and that it actually can function (If event fails, the flame legion uses it to burn down a nearby village). And what's the reaction of the legions/Charr to this? They would rather smash it apart and make it impossible to be used, rather then study it or try to use it themselves.

I also don't believe for a nano-second that someone like Bangar or his cronies would withhold conquering Kryta or any other territory if they had the means within their grasp. This isn't a new development either, Charr exceptionalism has existed for over a thousand years and many believe that Tyria is their right as the superior species. He's been biding his time, as they all have, if Ebonhawke fell then the rest of the human nations would be next. The Olmakhan said it themselves, Charr society had organized itself around death and warfare, they would continue to conquer and destroy until they were the only ones left, and then they would kill each other too.

Only from what I've seen, the Charr viewed Ascalon as their hunting grounds, and didn't show signs of wanting to go past that until humanity kicked them out. So they retalitaed with attacking all humans nearby. And yes, Bangar would invade Kryta, but that's the key point.

He literally can't devote the forces required to even attempt it, due to other factors. He agreed to the treaty because he absolutely knew he would never be able to win fighting Iron and Ash, alongside with Flame and other local problems.

If they believed Tyria was their right to own, they wouldn't care about borders, they'd try to drive the Norn from the shiverpeaks (as opposed to be completely fine with the Norn, and having an unspoken "We won't mess with you if you don't mess with us" agreement in EOTN), and actively attack all. But we never see that. We only see them go full war mode on humanity, and humanity alone

"The Legions of the Charr threw off the shackles of religion, casting their Shamans down to the lowest order of Charr society, and elevating the military warbands into a solidified government. Although the legions have no central rule, they work together to maintain their territories in Ascalon, and make plans to one day spread farther—eradicating humans wherever they fester on the face of the world."

The goal, at the time of post-EOTN after being free of flame legion, was to eradicate humanity. We clearly see that this goal is no longer around at all for most Charr.

"While all four legions can claim lineage to the Khan-Ur, the ancient ruler of the Charr, the Gold Legion has been considered outcast since the fall of the Shaman caste during the time of the famous Charr heroine Kalla Scorchrazor. And yet, the Charr alliance remains strong enough that none of the three allied legions bars another from their capital. Even though the lands of the Charr are divided, the legions work together to unify the whole and finish their conquest—to the heart of Ascalon City and beyond."

Funny, the conquest is started to be "The heart of Ascalon city, and beyond." not "All of tyria" And again, the Charr we have seen throughout the game, if they want to continue to war, it's against humanity, not all of Tyria.

"Even after more than 200 years, the Charr still bristle at the memories of the time when the Shaman and the Titans held power over them. The Charr of today are fierce in their rejection of all gods and any who serve them. They do not accept any god's authority and are quick-tempered about any Charr worship or manipulation by godlike beings.

And while no Charr would ever willingly follow the Shamans, it is still the underlying goal of every Charr leader to prove his own superiority, subjugate his fellows, and raise the banner of one legion above the rest. Unity, they say, can only be established beneath a single military leader. Most Charr believe that only under such rule can their race fulfill its destiny to rule all of Tyria. Unfortunately for them (and fortunately for the members of the other races), most Charr leaders also believe the only leader capable of unifying their race is themselves. "

The Charr who believe they should rule all of Tyria, believe they can only do so under a Khan Ur. And no charr leader would accept another Charr as being said leader. Also, we've seen clearly that the Charr as of GW2 era don't really believe that goal, outside of ones like Bangar.

Of Tyria's assembled nations the Legions have the must unsustainable, they've been the most unsustainable for awhile, and the center cannot hold.

Funny, because Iron legion seems pretty sustainable. They got farming, agriculture, tech development, environmental clean up and restoration...

Iron legion is also trading with other races, is the one leading peace efforts and changing the Charr's spot in the world. Ash is working with Iron, and Blood is being dragged along forcibly, though we already see in Grothmar they do have functional farming. While yes, what the legions were was unsustainable, again we've actively seen them change, see them advance. They are not warcraft orcs, they are growing and evolving.

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I don't buy that if the Charr were able to defeat the Forgotten they wouldn't expand into the Crystal Desert, nor would their conquests cease past the Shiverpeaks and into Kryta and Orr. Nothing in the lore suggests that the pre-human Charr empire was ever going to stop it's expansion, only that by the time that mankind reached their shores they had conquered Ascalon. Why, exactly, would they? The Charr sought domination over all of Tyria. As one Blood legionnaire in Blood Keep put it 'Tyria once belonged to us, and it'll belong to us again'.

As for all the rampant enslavement and destruction that you claim humans only seem to do when encountering other cultures, why don't you ask the Forgotten? Or the Dwarves? what about the Asura and Norn? The most the Charr have managed was a friendly rivalry with the last, and I use friendly loosely here considering it still involved outbursts of racism and sudden violence. It's as if people take the Veldrunner Clan and think that literally every single race humans ever bumped into were treated like that, where by contrast the Charr haven't really had that much in the way of positive relations with the other races before the Ebonhawke Treaty.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the Charr are so enraged at humanity because the reverse happened and Ecology spells out as much. Humans may of come to Ascalon seeking their land but it's not a scrappy underdog story of the Charr overcoming imperalists taking their home, it's a story of the Charr throwing everything they have at a nation of people they sought to enslave, kill, and conquer like everyone else and being constantly frustrated that mankind would not bend to their will. The Legions, more then anything else, could not abide a threat to their dominance of the region.

Further, you miss the point completely of why Charr distrust magic. They don't use searing cauldrons not because it's unethical, ethics has nothing to do with the equation. It's superstitious fear of the magical that has saturated their society ever since the Foefire and the expulsion of the Shaman caste. As the Flame Cubs say, the Legions are scared of magic, and they find it both unreliable to their eyes and potentially self destructive. It's a side effect of their hatred of spirituality and gods, rather then some kind of moral dilemma over the rights and wrongs of the Searing. Pyre Fierceshot believed it was a good thing, why would those who follow his ideal think any different?

If there is a thing we agree on it is indeed that Charr society is changing. People like Rytlock are realizing just how absolutely insane the High Legions are and the societies they continue to perpetuate, if anything the Icebrood Saga thusfar seems to be a deconstruction of the pitfalls of that extreme militaristic nationalism and how non-functional it can be in a world without a war.

I'd point out in EOTN the Charr didn't exactly respect that border rule, just ask the Spirit of the Bear. Like I said before, it's a 'friendly' rivalry that comes from a mutual respect for strength, but that's the key isn't it? For the Legions it's about STRENGTH. Are you strong enough to oppose us? will you make a potential conquest difficult? if so, we can shove you aside for later, to pick off at another date. At the end of the day many Charr still regard them as 'furless kodan', and that's hardly the first instance of that, as far back as Scarlet Charr have had the notion that Norn are weak, soft, after all they fled their homelands. It's not a question of if they would fight the Norn, it's a question of when.

You take these restraints on how the Charr act as some form of benevolence, in reality it's a question of time and resource. They do not go out to conquer Tyria because they CANNOT, not because they WILL NOT, they simply couldn't afford it. Between the Ghosts, the Brand, and their own constant infighting the Charr haven't been in a position where seizing control of everyone and everything else was on the table. Not that they haven't tried of course, because Prince Edair wasn't the only one to have machinations on Lions Arch if Evon Gnashblade or the Havoc are any indication.

Also please don't compare this with Warcraft Orcs, even after the whole Garrosh Hellscream and Darnassus debacle they have done far more to try and redeem themselves over who they used to be compared to the Legions.

And yes I count the Iron Legion in that estimation, because if the metallic nightmare called the Black Citadel is some proof of Charr caring for their environment, i'd hate to see what it looks like when they don't. Iron subscribes to the same altered history and propaganda that Blood does, Smodur just happens to have ambitions of uniting the Charr as a visionary. But make no mistake, the mans basically Bangar Ruinbringer-lite, you can't run a city like that and NOT be, to that end i'm not exactly holding my breath come the next couple episodes. Malice implies that Smodur will take advantage of the power vacuum to do...something...and it's anyones guess what, for now he's on our side merely because he's maintaining the treaty at the moment.

Frankly, Queen Jennah more then anyone should be credited for pushing towards the treaty. She was the one who opted to release prisoners during the Ogre Revolt, she was the one who entrusted Dougle Keane with taking back the Claw, and if there's someone I trust to hold it together it'll be her.

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@Seatox.4065 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:victim complextalking about 'one blood' or 'one people'violent and militaristic

the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

I'm unsure how I feel about that. The notion of one charr, one blood, one nation. As well as warband above self, Legion above warband, and Charr above Legion as well as Charr above all seems awfully similar to
Volk
in concept. Volk isn't strictly bad at a glance, but when you pump up nationalism to the degree where you believe in this singular Charr above all, this abstract concept of Charrdom that you must fight and die for, it gets really scary really fast.

Yeah, Bangar is fashing it up hard - Someone at Anet has definitely read a bit of Umberto Eco's stuff about Ur-fascism, Bangar's rhetoric hits so many of those check-boxes.

when I was young I was REALLY interested in history - and since everything taught at school was filtered and shallow, I got my hands on things like AH's book and some of Riefenstahl's movies - among other stuff.

Oh boy did this episode reminded me of all that. All my NS alarms went off at full power - and I don't yell 'n*zi' at someone just because they ask for tougher immigration laws and enforcing them or dislike same sex marriage (for those young ones, there is a huge difference between conservative and national socialism. A smaller gap between national $whatever and national socialism and a surprisingly small gap between socialism and and the Strasser wing of national socialism. Have fun reading up on it. Or not.)

So, the charr are at a very very dangerous point right now. A tiny fluctuation can push them in any direction. Will be fun to watch.

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The question is not "what mean things did the Charr", because we already know what they did; the question is, "how are races like humans any better, how is it warranted to single out the charr to bash them for being monsters".
I found that to be one of the most interesting parts of the lore; there are no good guys in GW2. Many of the races are, in some way or another, vile.And I don't see Charr standing out in that regard at all, especially not in current times. Humans are still busy messing up centaur lands right now, asura are still systematically conducting horrible experiments on sapient species; in comparison to that, Charr are really just sitting around twiddling their thumbs at the moment.

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@"deatine.2498" said:The question is not "what mean things did the Charr", because we already know what they did; the question is, "how are races like humans any better, how is it warranted to single out the charr to bash them for being monsters".

I found that to be one of the most interesting parts of the lore; there are no good guys in GW2. Many of the races are, in some way or another, vile.And I don't see Charr standing out in that regard at all, especially not in current times. Humans are still busy messing up centaur lands right now, asura are still systematically conducting horrible experiments on sapient species; in comparison to that, Charr are really just sitting around twiddling their thumbs at the moment.

Well if you just strip historical context from the equation the Centaur aren't exactly the best group of people now are they? The Modniir practically hold the Harathi and Tamanii at gunpoint to do their bidding, which often includes slavery, ritual sacrifice, and consumption of those that they kill. If we judged the Centaurs by the same metric they're wholly monsterous and humans would very much be in the right for wishing to drive them out. Many of the people who live in Kryta do not know why they are fighting the Centaurs, or why the Centaurs do not accept peace rather then relentlessly attack. It is through the historical lens of knowing that the Centaur used to own the lands Krytans live on that they have any justification at all.

Now if we're talking Charr they're about as ruthless to their own kind as anyone else. They do not wonder why they fight, and those who do are considered a danger to the state. It is not merely what the Legions were, it is what they still are and continue to be, the Legions would likely continue their world conquest were it not for the intervention of humanity and other forces holding them back. Humans fight to survive, Charr fight to prove their dominance, fundamentally that cannot continue and the Legions are only restrained by their lack of resources and time.

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Again: I’m pretty sure that the dwarves preferred having humans as a neighbour over charr, considering the charr warred against dwarves and humans didn’t. (and all the current inhabitants of the Krytan region would prefer it being dominated by humans than centaur)

Given half a chance they WOULD have gone against the whole world, that’s what you’re ignoring, if anything Ascalon holding out by itself and giving the charr such a bloody nose put paid to that ambition during the post-GW1 - pre-GW2 time period. Loesh is absolutely right to say that the charr's restraint is everything to do with time and resources and not out of some benevolent realisation that what they did before was wrong.

Point still stands, they are a thoroughly unsympathetic race and attempts to make them so will fall flat precisely because of all the reasons I have listed before. The assertion does not stand up to scrutiny and evidence.

The charr do not need to be sympathetic to be compelling.

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None of that changes what humans did, though, or for what reasons. They simply do the same as any other race: expand, invade, start a war when there's resistance. The fact that they seem the better choice to the dwarves or some other races, doesn't change anything about that.In fact, those races might prefer humans for the same reason that you use against charr: humans are not nicer, humans simply seem weaker and might not be able to cause as much damage through expansion even if they wanted to .And "but they're the bad guys, so it's okay if we invade their land and kill them off" is obviously only useful as propaganda. At least charr don't pretend they're the good guys while being the bad guys like humans do.

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@Julia Nardin.9824 said:

Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's any way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

This however is not a war against humans, the pact is not composed of humans but of groups of every race and was created to fight dragons, not charr.If Bangar feels threatened by this, the only plausible explanation that comes to mind is that he aspired to conquer the entire territory and not stop at Ascalon, so the intervention of the pact and the aurene at that point would be inevitable to stop Bangar .

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@"deatine.2498" said:None of that changes what humans did, though, or for what reasons. They simply do the same as any other race: expand, invade, start a war when there's resistance. The fact that they seem the better choice to the dwarves or some other races, doesn't change anything about that.In fact, those races might prefer humans for the same reason that you use against charr: humans are not nicer, humans simply seem weaker and might not be able to cause as much damage through expansion even if they wanted to .And "but they're the bad guys, so it's okay if we invade their land and kill them off" is obviously only useful as propaganda. At least charr don't pretend they're the good guys while being the bad guys like humans do.

What is actually the point you're trying to make here?

If it's "the humans are just as bad" then I have answered that: They are not.

The humans do not "pretend" to be good guys when they're actually bad guys, that's ridiculous and if you can't see that then further engagement is pointless.

Humans try to fix their mistakes or regret mistakes made by others of their race: Up to and including going against their own gods if necessary. Charr do nothing of the sort because they do not view similar actions taken by their race as mistakes. This is the fundamental difference between the races and what makes humans far more sympathetic.

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@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:What is actually the point you're trying to make here?

If it's "the humans are just as bad" then I have answered that: They are not.

That is exactly the point, I am asking for an explanation and examples why humans or other races are supposedly better if they operated in exactly the same way as charr did. I am honestly much surprised be the excessive, exclusive hate for the charr race. Obviously I main charr, but I also play humans and soak up any lore I get, so I really don't see how charr stick out in regards to being ducks.

Humans try to fix their mistakes or regret mistakes made by others of their race

Well I don't see humans leaving centaurs alone on their own damn land so far and they fix their mistakes for their own interests. Just like the charr race is in fact fixing past mistakes for their own interest.

I do agree, though, that it is pointless to discuss further.

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@deatine.2498 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:What is actually the point you're trying to make here?

If it's "the humans are just as bad" then I have answered that: They are not.

That is exactly the point, I am asking for an explanation and examples why humans or other races are supposedly better if they operated in exactly the same way as charr did. I am honestly much surprised be the excessive, exclusive hate for the charr race. Obviously I main charr, but I also play humans and soak up any lore I get, so I really don't see how charr stick out in regards to being ducks.

Humans try to fix their mistakes or regret mistakes made by others of their race

Well I don't see humans leaving centaurs alone on their own kitten land so far and they fix their mistakes for their own interests. Just like the charr race is in fact fixing past mistakes for their own interest.

I do agree, though, that it is pointless to discuss further

The reason given for why the humans better is they oppressed less, at times didn't oppress at all, and they expanded for considerably different reasons. The Humans pushed outwards to migrate, not just colonize, and because their spirituality and culture included elements of nature worship and an emphasis on compassion, rather then JUST war, they were inclined towards diplomacy and protection of the land. If you think the other races were less inclined to violence because humans didn't seem as capable as the Legions when it came to warfare despite the continent spanning empire, rather then anything to do with either nations demeanor, then I have a very lucrative trade deal on the nearest bridge that i'd like to sell you.

Secondly, the notion that humans wouldn't leave the Centaurs alone if presented with the option is false. The current spat of wars is something the Modniir started against humanity while holding a whip to the back of the Harathi and Tamani. A casual stroll through some of the dialogue reveals humans wo wonder why they fight or wonder why they cannot get along or work something out. This is not the case for the Legions either past or present, their belief is they have a society that encourages domination and warfare, then proceeds to pursue it at the expense of literally everyone else and has been doing so for quite a long time, that is until humanity forced that expansions to grind to a halt of course.

Saying 'Both sides are bad!' because they have both done bad things, while ignoring the number of bad things, the scale, or the societal structures that perpetuate those bad things, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense unless you're looking for an easy way to excuse a societies actions.

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@"Loesh.4697" said:The reason given for why the humans betterDo you know the musical "Wicked"? At one point there's a

between Elphaba and the wizard, where he tells her: "Where I come from, people believe all kinds of things that aren't true. We call it history."

A lot of the "history" we know of the Guild Wars universe is human-centric, and as such prone to showing the humans in a better light than other races (especially those they were in conflict with). This includes pretty much everything we know from the original GW game, since we saw things exclusively from the human point of view then. It was the writers job to portrait the human race as the "good ones" back then. Being objective (as far as you even can be within a made-up universe) was never intended.

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"Loesh.4697" said:The reason given for why the humans betterDo you know the musical "Wicked"? At one point there's a
between Elphaba and the wizard, where he tells her: "Where I come from, people believe all kinds of things that aren't true. We call it history."

A lot of the "history" we know of the Guild Wars universe is human-centric, and as such prone to showing the humans in a better light than other races (especially those they were in conflict with). This includes pretty much everything we know from the original GW game, since we saw things exclusively from the human point of view then. It was the writers job to portrait the human race as the "good ones" back then. Being objective (as far as you even can be within a made-up universe) was never intended.

Unless playing a human somehow made the dwarves not in an alliance with Ascalon I find that doubtful to say the least. It isn't like the more brutal aspects of humanity weren't present during Guild Wars 1. You still made armor out of Charr, Rurik called other people infidels, and Alari Doubleblade still scalped people. The Ascendant was a human, but it didn't make their perspective wrong. To the contrary many things in GW2 reinforce the idea that the perception of how the Charr legions ran their world, not the least of which was the Ecology of the Charr, isn't that far off the mark.

People seem to be under the impression that having a point of view automatically makes perceptions invalid due to bias.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

I kinda wish he went after Primordus. The Charr once worshipped the Destroyers, now they mastered them.

Doesn't really make sense for Bangar to traverse across Central Tyria when he's got an Elder Dragon right next proverbial door. Primordus is still at the Ring of Fire, and under lava. Ice is easier to get through than lava.

He can always take a waypoint.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

I kinda wish he went after Primordus. The Charr once worshipped the Destroyers, now they mastered them.

Doesn't really make sense for Bangar to traverse across Central Tyria when he's got an Elder Dragon right next proverbial door. Primordus is still at the Ring of Fire, and under lava. Ice is easier to get through than lava.

He can always take a waypoint.

Gotta discover those waypoints first, and he doesn't trust Ash Legion Evon to purchase a Waypoint Unlock Package.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

I kinda wish he went after Primordus. The Charr once worshipped the Destroyers, now they mastered them.

Doesn't really make sense for Bangar to traverse across Central Tyria when he's got an Elder Dragon right next proverbial door. Primordus is still at the Ring of Fire, and under lava. Ice is easier to get through than lava.

He can always take a waypoint.

Gotta discover those waypoints first, and he doesn't trust Ash Legion Evon to purchase a Waypoint Unlock Package.

would you? if you are not careful half of the contents of the package would be Evon Gnashblade Action Figures.

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@Sylum.1806 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:I've been down this road with some folks back on the old forums. Some people are outright religious about the events of Ascalon from GW1. I'm not sure if they're role playing or they have a legitimate fanaticism about it half the time.

Gonna go out on a limb and suggest these people are projecting their own real-world ethno-centric righteousness and frustrations into the game lore.

That doesn't seem stable. But I guess if it keeps that hate in-game as opposed to real life? Wishful thinking?

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@Julia Nardin.9824 said:I love seeing these sorts of conversations pop up on the forums! :3

Bangar is pretty divisive, even here in the writers' room.

While discussion and speculation is always nice, i have to say for anet staff to confirm or rebuke rumours, and downright spoil future content, i find highly unprofessional.Do with my opinion what you will, but to me it feels highly disrespectful of your own product and integrity and as dev.:(

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@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:I love seeing these sorts of conversations pop up on the forums! :3

Bangar is pretty divisive, even here in the writers' room.

While discussion and speculation is always nice, i have to say for anet staff to confirm or rebuke rumours, and downright spoil future content, i find highly unprofessional.Do with my opinion what you will, but to me it feels highly disrespectful of your own product and integrity and as dev.:(I saw no spoilers for future content there, just things we already knew. That Jormag is talking to somebody. We just know now it's Bangar, nothing more. We don't know where the story will go in the future for the most part. Closing one door merely leaves dozens more still open for answers.

Confirming/debunking rumors/theories and speculation is not a bad thing, you see a lot of other companies do it too. One theory going around dealing with a FFXIV character was debunked by the team themselves during a Q&A a few months back.

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Joking aside, to add a bit more meat to this conversation, there is a running theme under this episode that i'd actually love to hear the developers thoughts on, because I feel like it's going to color the rest of the Icebrood Saga. In terms of Rytlock, of Crecia, and now we know even Bangar.

Historical wrongs or rights aside, you can tell a lot about the health of a society based on the children that are present within it. One of the most striking things to me about humans and Charr even back as far as the core game were the differences that their parenting techniques created in the children under their care. One of the reasons why I am on the humans side in a lot of it is is because of how they treat their children and the sort of people that it tends to produce. Humans clearly have a much different perception of race relations even on at an early age, the kids in Divinity's Reach roleplay as old Ascalonian heroes but when you talk to them they are readily accepting of the fact there is a difference between the 'Bad Charr' of ages past and the good Charr now, that the worlds changed a lot and that the Charr were not a monolithically evil people In the Fields of Ruin this is different of course, a lot of people there had been fighting with Charr who had tried to kill them since early childhood, but even then there are kids like Olia in Forlorn Hope who wonder why they must fight with the Ogres. To them they see this fighting and don't always just default to killing their enemies, but try to understand the circumstances that make sharing the land impossible.

Say what you will about human spirituality, but it's considerably different from the typical comparison people seem to make between Christianity and it. There is, after all, a world of difference between a Cross and an Ankh. Part of the reason I really like playing my human Guardian is it's like playing a Paladin that was into Greek Stoicism and Wicca. They are more like primordial elements of the universe that, while capable of immense cruelty as per the parables, are also capable of extreme kindness in their scriptures. Indeed the primary values of human faith are compassion, empathy, and protection. Even Balthazar, the most ruthless of the gods, had a philosophy that revolved around fighting to protect another rather then fighting for the sake of fighting.

I'm not saying that religion produces objectively better children, after all one of the mist striking things you can find in Divinity's Reach is a human child who is being pressured into liking Grenth and learning about necromancy with his father dismissing it as just a phase. However what I AM saying is that spirituality can have a strong influence on what values a culture holds close to it's heart. Humans are in Guild Wars, a defensive people, and when I think of the kind of values their best teach I think of Gandalf speaking to Frodo in Moria. 'Many that live deserve death, and some that die can deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement.' The gods themselves may fluctuate between good, evil, and somewhere inbetween, but the actual values they taught their people were good.

However the children of the Charr are much the opposite.

Cubs in the Black Citadel would scoff at that kind of commentary, for violence and destruction are not only taught to be good things, but their wish fulfillment fantasies of enacting violence on their enemies are taught as a good thing. Exceptions may exist but by and large their children are fed on a steady diet of altered sanctioned history and a belief that only through violence can they gain respect from the people around them. In truth all it creates is fear, the same fear that Bangar Ruinbringer feels keeps them safe, fear that Shaman Ninukab points out has turned their homeland into a hellscape, fear that a cub expresses towards a Vigil soldier trying to calm them about Aurene, it's a fear of the other and it's encouraged. Children go out to the Stormcaller monument fed on such stories and wonder to their Primus why they don't kill all the humans already. Such fear is indeed, likely what drove Ajax Anvilburn to madness, he was as one of the Iron Legion soldiers say, a coward.

That's a very specific word to use to describe someone, and when I saw it I thought of all the times fear had come up in the last episode, and also how Jormag offers Bangar a way to escape his fear.

That is the trap of Charr society. Humans have built a culture of vulnerability where people are encouraged to be compassionate to one another, even beyond the boundaries of race. It is why when the Skritt came to the surface of Tyria the Sylvari and humans were open to negotiating with them, where the Charr were all too happy to aid in the Asura's extermination campaign. The Charr by contrast built a society of strength, a Darwinian nightmare where only the 'strongest' live and the weak are discarded like refuse. The weak, the infirm, and elderly are consigned to huddling in farmsteads with their cattle while the youth taunt them about how they were basically sent out there to die.

Real Charr are badasses, real Charr are defined by their ability to fight and kill with a completely blank emotionless expression, real Charr are also apparently defined by their deep seated insecurities of both themselves and the others around them.

That I think is why I rush to humanity's defense, and why it's hard for me to believe, even in the early start of the war, that humanity was entirely at fault for what happened in Ascalon. Cultures of 'Strength' are about anything but, they are not about being strong, they are about a fear of other people, of change, of anyone controlling your destiny but you that isn't a healthy way to live. To gorge oneself of meaningless violence past the point of whats sane for no other reason then to prove your dominance and communicate it to others. Meanwhile a culture of the 'vulnerable' truly knows what it is to be strong, to confront their fears and tell others about them, to find strength in each other and hope for a better tomorrow even when the world seems nihilistic and cruel. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is a key part to adulthood, if you never progress past that point you'll never grow up even fifty years later, you'll still be the same child terrified of the dark.

Say what you will about human religion, say what you will about religion in general, but the spirituality and compassion taught there certainly allowed humans to raise better kids in my eyes. That was my take away from Bound by Blood.

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@"Loesh.4697" said:Joking aside, to add a bit more meat to this conversation, there is a running theme under this episode that i'd actually love to hear the developers thoughts on, because I feel like it's going to color the rest of the Icebrood Saga. In terms of Rytlock, of Crecia, and now we know even Bangar.

Historical wrongs or rights aside, you can tell a lot about the health of a society based on the children that are present within it. One of the most striking things to me about humans and Charr even back as far as the core game were the differences that their parenting techniques created om the children under their care. One of the reasons why I am on the humans side in a lot of tis is because of how they treat their children and the sort of people that it tends to produce. Humans clearly have a much different perception of race relations even on at an early age, the kids in Divinity's Reach roleplay as old Ascalonian heroes but when you talk to them they are readily accepting of the fact there is a difference between the 'Bad Charr' of ages past and the good Charr now, that the worlds changed a lot and that the Charr were not a monolithically evil people In the Fields of Ruin this is different of course, a lot of people there had been fighting with Charr who had tried to kill them since early childhood, but even then there are kids like Olia in Forlorn Hope who wonder why they must fight with the Ogres. To them they see this fighting and don't always just default to killing their enemies, but try to understand the circumstances that make sharing the land impossible.

Say what you will about human spirituality, but it's considerably different from the typical comparison seem to make between Christianity and it. There is, after all, a world of difference between a Cross and an Ankh. Part of the reason I really like playing my human Guardian is it's like playing a Paladin that was into Greek Stoicism and Wicca. They are more like primordial elements of the universe that, while capable of immense cruelty as per the parables, are also capable of extreme kindness in their scriptures. Indeed the primary values of human faith are compassion, empathy, and protection. Even Balthazar, the most ruthless of the gods, had a philosophy that revolved around fighting to protect another rather then fighting for the sake of fighting.

I'm not saying that religion produces objectively better children, after all one of the mist striking things you can find in Divinity's Reach is a human child who is being pressured into liking Grenth and learning about necromancy with his father dismissing it as just a phase. However what I AM saying is that spirituality can have a strong influence on what values a culture holds close to it's heart. Humans are in Guild Wars, a defensive people, and when I think of the kind of values their best teach I think of Gandalf speaking to Frodo in Moria. 'Many that live deserve death, and some that die can deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement.' The gods themselves may fluctuate between good, evil, and somewhere inbetween, but the actual values they taught their people were good.

However the children of the Charr are much the opposite.

Cubs in the Black Citadel would scoff at that kind of commentary, for violence and destruction are not only taught to be good things, but their wish fulfillment fantasies of enacting violence on their enemies are taught as a good thing. Exceptions may exist but by and large their children are fed on a steady diet of altered sanctioned history and a belief that only through violence can they gain respect from the people around them. In truth all it creates is fear, the same fear that Bangar Ruinbringer feels keeps them safe, fear that Shaman Ninukab points out has turned their homeland into a hellscape, fear that a cub expresses towards a Vigil soldier trying to calm them about Aurene, it's a fear of the other and it's encouraged. Children go out to the Stormcaller monument fed on such stories and wonder to their Primus why they don't kill all the humans already. Such fear is indeed, likely what drove Ajax Anvilburn to madness, he was as one of the Iron Legion soldiers say, a coward.

That's a very specific word to use to describe someone, and when I saw it I thought of all the times fear had come up in the last episode, and also how Jormag offers Bangar a way to escape his fear.

That is the trap of Charr society. Humans have built a culture of vulnerability where people are encouraged to be compassionate to one another, even beyond the boundaries of race. It is why when the Skritt came to the surface of Tyria the Sylvari and humans were open to negotiating with them, where the Charr were all too happy to aid in the Asura's extermination campaign. The Charr by contrast built a society of strength, a Darwinian nightmare where only the 'strongest' live and the weak are discarded like refuse. The weak, the infirm, and elderly are consigned to huddling in farmsteads with their cattle while the youth taunt them about how they were basically sent out there to die.

Real Charr are badasses, real Charr are defined by their ability to fight and kill with a completely blank emotionless expression, real Charr are also apparently defined by their deep seated insecurities of both themselves and the others around them.

That I think is why I rush to humanity's defense, and why it's hard for me to believe, even in the early start of the war, that humanity was entirely at fault for what happened in Ascalon. Cultures of 'Strength' are about anything but, they are not about being strong, they are about a fear of other people, of change, of anyone controlling your destiny but you that isn't a healthy way to live. To gorge oneself of menaingless violence past the point of whats sane for no other reason then to prove your dominance and communicate it to others. Meanwhile a culture of the 'vulnerable' truly knows what it is to be strong, to confront their fears and tell others about them, to find strength in each other and hope for a better tomorrow even when the world seems nihilistic and cruel. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is a key part to adulthood, if you never progress past that point you'll never grow up even fifty years later, you'll still be the same child terrified of the dark.

Say what you will about human religion, say what you will about religion in general, but the spirituality and compassion taught there certainly allowed humans to raise better kids in my eyes. That was my take away from Bound by Blood.

I have always been of the opinion that, by completely rejecting religion and/or spirituality in their culture with the ousting of the Flame Legion, the charr unknowingly crippled themselves. The reason why they did it is understandable--their religious leaders had become so corrupt, the charr of Kalla Scorchrazor's time couldn't see any good in religion/spirituality. Their only examples of religion were corrupted Flame Legion, and the God worship of their enemies. Parents who lived those horrors taught rejection of spirituality to their cubs, and thus modern charr culture was born.

I find it interesting that Flame Legion is re-joining the charr as a nation. With the corruption removed from Flame Legion spirituality, we see them talking about concepts like the flame representing the strength and hope of the charr; of praying and using rituals to, in essence, repent of past evil. The "purified" Flame Legion spirituality could--in years to come--return something to charr society that was lost hundreds of years ago.

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Looking back on my own post made me realize how atrocious my grammar and spelling can be when making something that long, goodness.

But uh, in regards to that and the developments of Bound by Blood. That's kind of what I feel this whole thing with Rytlock is leading up to. I watched a lot of videos from Wooden Potatos about everything since season four, and I have to say it's very revealing about how people look at the Charr. This focus on the Olmakhan is seen as distinctly un-Charr like, that real Charr should be constantly fighting and killing. It's actually somewhat telling that people were advocating for them to return to their roots in Guild Wars 1 as violent antagonists, and disparaging the idea that at the end of all this the Charr might learn to better live with other people, that they might find value in the power of love.

But that seems like nonsense to me, isn't the whole point of Guild Wars 2 learning to overcome through love despite our differences?

Why would the Charr regress back to Pyre Fierceshot and the Shaman Caste after all this? Why would we focus on Rytlock if this entire story was about how he doesn't care for his cubs or his cubs about their father? I already guessed in the trailer it was talking to a Charr, I just guessed the wrong one. It wasn't Rytlock, it was talking to Bangar, and if even he, if even the personification of Charr violence cares about his children why wouldn't everyone else? it's a topic that's hammered into our head over, and over, and over again since the start of the episode. But Bangar is our antagonist because he's made himself in a way, the ultimate personification of what Guild Wars story fights against, he's made himself an avatar of fear.

That's the repeating theme of this episode, how fear has infested the hearts of Charr at their core. Become so overwhelming even that it's made them rail against the avatar of hope in Aurene. They have fallen into despair and nihilism without the capability to believe in something greater then themselves as humans had. That's not to say that Charr culture should be erased, but much like the Djinn in Ahdhasham it needs to be reorganized. More so then any of the nations of Tyria the Charr Legions beliefs and philosophies grate against the core values that Guild Wars has. Bangar has made himself the symbol of that fear and hatred, but perhaps Efram and Rytlock will be what proves that they don't have to be this way.

I think that's what the Icebrood Saga will be about.

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