No xpacs, no problem! Work on professions!

[Swagger.1459]

It takes forever to produce E-Specs and balance updates are all over the place. And since the team has shifted gears from Xpacs, it’s still very important to refresh professions with regularity. There is a big problem with being able to produce and work on profession stuff, though, and it boils down to the way they were designed.

I put more details in this thread... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/71738/profession-development-path-forward-proposals, but consider and think about this...

The devs had to create roughly 50 skills for the last Elementalist E-spec... If the “formula” was changed, the team could have potentially given Elementalists almost every weapon not available to that profession currently... That was just one example, but the team makes their jobs 10x harder with E-spec production and with the follow up balancing updates as it stands.

*For reference to the above in a quote from my thread...

“PROFESSION MECHANIC CHANGES

Elementalist*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…”

The team should consider sitting down and talking about streamlining profession designs and mechanics so they can...

1- Produce E-specs more regularly.

2- Balance more effectively when core designs and foundations are the same.

3- Some weapons can be released without needing to have an associated E-spec tied to it.

4- The team can produce more balanced E-specs more regularly, and then sell those as profession E-spec pack updates... Which means players get profession updates more often while the team makes money in the process... That’s a win-win for everyone.

Edit- Again, the team makes profession development and balancing way harder than is should be, and is missing opportunities to make more players happier, and more invested into the game, while generating more revenue. These could also mean more balance can be had across profession inside of spvp and wvw modes, while reducing player resentment and cynicism towards the team.

Edit 2- And I was going to start posting quotes from threads and players here, and gaming sites like Massively OP and from their staff, to reinforce some points, but I will instead say the following are common themes and feelings from critics out there... Basically, GW2 has a super great combat system, but profession are completely unbalanced... E-specs and balance updates are too infrequent and do not address real issues... There is a real lack of role variety and professions mostly revolve around doing more DPS...

Long story short, GW2 has a great reputation for the combat system design and a poor one for profession related things. And that's not good because the characters we play are the top most important feature of this game.

[Konrad Curze.5130]

I agree, since there's no expac nor new e-specs on the horizon, the dev team should put aside a bit of their time making cash shop bling and use it to polish/balance/rework the bottom ringers weapons and traits we already have. its almost as good as having new content

[Yumenei.7943]

I have mixed feelings. It seems like a good idea for them to release new e-specs, but ANet tends to flip balance upside down every few months so much that your favorite spec today might become complete garbage tomorrow. Good example is staff ele, which was very powerful in the early days, but mostly in PvE. It traded that power for low mobility and lowest health pool across all available professions. To me that seemed very fair and instanced encounters could always be made more reliant on mobility and quick reflex, if they wanted to counter this build somehow.ANet went with a giant nerf instead, one that made Meteor Shower weaker than most AoE abilities in game and one that made Lava Font weaker than Lesser Lava Font that you cast when downed, which is ridiculous. After years of complains ANet did nothing to fix staff elementalist, which now requires more boons than any other class and still does less damage unless some special conditions are met. Even warrior’s axe whirlwind is way more powerful and so is ranger’s whirlwind, both of which don’t have lengthy casting times, one also allows unhindered movement and the other one reflects projectiles.

At this point I don’t believe in ANet’s ability to balance the game across all game modes. That chaos will only increase in size if they add new e-specs or classes. Also have in mind possibility that you might not like the new e-spec for your class, but it still may ruin your current build that you enjoy playing either by incoming nerf or making it less viable option.

[Knighthonor.4061]

So what do Revenants get?

[Vavume.8065]

I don't need an xpac, but I do need a new race and new elite specs or at the very least unlock more weapons for each profession.

[zealex.9410]

I was away due to navy when did they say they moved away from expansions?

[Healix.5819]

They wouldn't try to sell elite specs separately. It'd cause too much complaining with people calling it P2W. If they were going to do one, they would add hero challenges throughout the season and add the elite halfway or so in. Also, elites are at minimum just a trait line and could reuse or modifying existing weapons and skills, but realistically, that'll never happen.

@zealex.9410 said:I was away due to navy when did they say they moved away from expansions?

They didn't, but there isn't one currently planned.

[kraai.7265]

you guys don't play much pvp/wvw dont you?

[Loosmaster.8263]

@zealex.9410 said:I was away due to navy when did they say they moved away from expansions?

Thank You for your service!!! Ex squid here also...

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Vavume.8065 said:I don't need an xpac, but I do need a new race and new elite specs or at the very least unlock more weapons for each profession.

There are other things that would be expected with an xpac but the above are core items. New elites keeps older content replayable.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@kraai.7265 said:you guys don't play much pvp/wvw dont you?

Some everyday we are ingame. WvW has its own staleness since we still haven't got a replacement for one the duplicated alpine border maps yet. New elites at least help there and keeps things fresh.

[kraai.7265]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@kraai.7265 said:you guys don't play much pvp/wvw dont you?

Some everyday we are ingame. WvW has its own staleness since we still haven't got a replacement for one the duplicated alpine border maps yet. New elites at least help there and keeps things fresh.

i strongly disagree, right now balance between classes is a joke, in zerg fights you have only 3 or 4 specs outshining everyone else, warclaws killed roaming and gave this players the mentality to just run away from fights, in pvp we have a really narrowed meta that is also outshining every other class or spec, and most classes have 1 or 2 builds that excel and the rest are custom builds tryhards use because they don't like to stick to a meta (my case)

new specs only bring more balancing issues, plus in the current state anet is right now, focusing on sales, they will probably make this new potential specs way stronger than the rest so they can push sales, after that they will forget every other spec and focus balancing between new specs and pof specs like they did in the past.

I think every pvp/wvw oriented player as a customer should demand for better balance and more work in that department, and the one that's in charge of new content for this game modes, right now both modes seem neglected, new specs could only make it worse.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@kraai.7265 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@kraai.7265 said:you guys don't play much pvp/wvw dont you?

Some everyday we are ingame. WvW has its own staleness since we still haven't got a replacement for one the duplicated alpine border maps yet. New elites at least help there and keeps things fresh.

i strongly disagree, right now balance between classes is a joke, in zerg fights you have only 3 or 4 specs outshining everyone else, warclaws killed roaming and gave this players the mentality to just run away from fights, in pvp we have a really narrowed meta that is also outshining every other class or spec, and most classes have 1 or 2 builds that excel and the rest are custom builds tryhards use because they don't like to stick to a meta (my case)

It’s always been 3-4 specs. Even core was Guard, Warrior, Ele, Necro, with 1 Mesmer for veil..

And you are correct on Warclaw.

Prior to the last Balance patch, Scrapper actually had a use in Zergs on a larger scale, giving us a Meta with 5-6 toons, though Ele is mostly a replacement not a need.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

@Swagger.1459 said:Elementalist*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…”

Each Elementalist weapon has at least 8 skills (for an off-hand), so you'd need at least 80 skills for 10 new weapons. In fact, you'd need more than that because there aren't 10 off-hand weapons. Also, 12 of those 50 skills you mention are attack chains for the sword that only make sense as auto-attacks, so really it's 1 main hand weapon, plus 30 other skills, which could give you at most 3 new (off-hand) weapons (with 6 skills left over). So really it would be a maximum of 4 new weapons, at the expense of the Weaver mechanic (which I'm guessing you don't like). And that's ignoring the question of whether there's a sensible way to distribute those skills across weapons like that.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@kraai.7265 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@kraai.7265 said:you guys don't play much pvp/wvw dont you?

Some everyday we are ingame. WvW has its own staleness since we still haven't got a replacement for one the duplicated alpine border maps yet. New elites at least help there and keeps things fresh.

i strongly disagree, right now balance between classes is a joke, in zerg fights you have only 3 or 4 specs outshining everyone else, warclaws killed roaming and gave this players the mentality to just run away from fights, in pvp we have a really narrowed meta that is also outshining every other class or spec, and most classes have 1 or 2 builds that excel and the rest are custom builds tryhards use because they don't like to stick to a meta (my case)

new specs only bring more balancing issues, plus in the current state anet is right now, focusing on sales, they will probably make this new potential specs way stronger than the rest so they can push sales, after that they will forget every other spec and focus balancing between new specs and pof specs like they did in the past.

I think every pvp/wvw oriented player as a customer should demand for better balance and more work in that department, and the one that's in charge of new content for this game modes, right now both modes seem neglected, new specs could only make it worse.

I agree WvW and PvP do need love.

We do see it differently for the other. We might need new elites because those classes don't have a variant yet that would help them better fit a zerg, which is why they aren't requested. In some cases players try and use the square peg for the round hole. I never like to plan for a new feature to come out as a failure and can't imagine a designer purposely doing so. That said players will also quite often try and run a build one way whereas the designer planned it would be used in a completely different way. That still doesn't mean we shouldn't have gotten the new content.

I am also coming at this from a roamer/havoc position so I can't talk toward zerg play. To the roamer/havoc side more elites mean more options and more mixes. Zergs have a more fixed roles than havocs or roamers, so I can see where they would want less variants. But with a havoc, it's about the role for the night and the current mix you have and what compliments what, so more choice all the better.

To me, they should be doing both, balancing existing and creating new ones.

[Swagger.1459]

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Elementalist*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…”

Each Elementalist weapon has at least 8 skills (for an off-hand), so you'd need at least 80 skills for 10 new weapons. In fact, you'd need more than that because there aren't 10 off-hand weapons. Also, 12 of those 50 skills you mention are attack chains for the sword that only make sense as auto-attacks, so really it's 1 main hand weapon, plus 30 other skills, which could give you at most 3 new (off-hand) weapons (with 6 skills left over). So really it would be a maximum of 4 new weapons, at the expense of the Weaver mechanic (which I'm guessing you don't like). And that's ignoring the question of whether there's a sensible way to distribute those skills across weapons like that.

This was the proposal on Ele in that thread...

“Elementalist

*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…

Attunements become *self only Toggle Buffs that affect weapon skills. Only 1 can be active at a time…

1. F1 Fire Attunement toggle- Attune to fire and gain a X% chance to cause AoE Fire burst with any weapon attack.
2. F2 Water Attunement toggle- Attune to water and gain a X% chance to heal self with any weapon attack.
3. F3 Air Attunement toggle- Attune to air and gain a X% reduction to weapon swap cooldowns and gain swiftness.
4. F4 Earth Attunement toggle- Attune to earth and gain a X% reduction to Direct Damage.

OR

Alternate Attunement ideas… Summon unique Elemental pets that have various roles and skills. Only 1 pet can be active at any time. These pets have a health bar.

1. F1- Unique Fire Element DPS pet
2. F2- Unique Water Element HEALING SUPPORT pet
3. F3- Unique Air Element NON-HEAL Support pet
4. F4- Unique Earth Element CONTROL pet

• 2 weapon slots• New E-Spec ONLY needs a max 7 new weapon skills now (and obviously 5 slot skills)• Better Condition management”

[Iozeph.5617]

We never needed e-specs. They're a stupid feature and they've wrecked just about every mode the game has.

Instead we could have had a brand new, single profession introduced for each expansion pack, tied directly to the theme of that pack. There'd have been resources to develop a story better explaining why that new profession has been introduced instead of the scattershot approach we were given where all you do is throw points at something and BAM! You're a reaper, or a scrapper, or whatever. Why? Who cares. Just also do this unexplained gathering achievement to get an ascended weapon because reasons that are never given. Does anybody not see the problem with this?

Core specs could have simply been given access to a new weapon per pack that broadens their abilities without over tipping the game's balance. You tailor a short story for each profession explaining why the new weapon is necessary- because it helps that particular profession better fight the creatures found in those new maps/biomes and you allow them to use it from beginning to end similar to the old weapon experience development from launch. Further more you get rid of weapon-specific traits across all professions and instead further develop traits around core specs based on the profession's identity and the role to be fulfilled by those discrete trait lines .

In the long run you end up with a much more stable game because the heart of those professions remains familiar and thematic. Also, you lower the actual workload of balance because instead of going from eight, to nine, then eighteen, then twenty seven separate professions to balance across all modes, you go from eight, to nine, to ten etc.

This way each new addition to the profession roster is free to be unshackled by worries of a core spec over powering it. Power creep becomes if not irrelevant, then at least more manageable.

Imagine if instead of the Revenant, the Druid, renamed the Celestial, was introduced? It has its own set of weapons, staff, mace, shield, dagger. It fits into the theme of the jungle, as well as the story of the exalted and the people writing it have more opportunity to fill in the back story and tie it back better to GW1, but are able to do so within the game instead of having to explain what it is and why it's there via a reddit post or a stream session.

Imagine the introduction of a Sunspear profession for POF, Where it introduces the use of land-based spears with shields. A medium armour wearing profession that is a more offensive oriented counterpart to the guardian. Giving up the defencive aspects of the guardian for desert based magics centering around application of offencive, fire based attacks and groups shields for the party in combat. Playing through the expansion the story of the Sunspears, their revival, and their refuge becomes more a journey of discovery and important to the player instead of just another faction the player has to appease in order to get from point A to point B.

Imagine not knowing where Rytlock was for all this time and only seeing him revealed when he reemerges from the mists, in the borderlands of the north, between Norn territory and old Ascalaon -at a time when his people are once again threatening to tear each other apart. He returns changed. Not only his attitudes but his whole demeanor, because he no longer walks alone. He's somber, quieter, wiser because he carries with him the perspectives and recollections and minds of those who've gone before. People who strove with the best intentions and, for whatever reasons there were, also saw the destruction or perversion of their people in their respective quests to solve an ancient problem/riddle. These are the things he brings to his people in order to try and steer them from the same terrible course. Imagine players making this journey with Rytlocke, seeking a personal weapon of legend as a focus, channeling the spirits of Legends as Revenants, disciples of a new order dedicated to warning the people of the present against the follies of the past. Exposing the natures of false prophets old enough to have either witnessed these disasters or even to have helped bring them about in some way - Jormag.

This is the squandered potential of Guild Wars. 2. It's a shame we didn't get it.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Elementalist*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…”

Each Elementalist weapon has at least 8 skills (for an off-hand), so you'd need at least 80 skills for 10 new weapons. In fact, you'd need more than that because there aren't 10 off-hand weapons. Also, 12 of those 50 skills you mention are attack chains for the sword that only make sense as auto-attacks, so really it's 1 main hand weapon, plus 30 other skills, which could give you at most 3 new (off-hand) weapons (with 6 skills left over). So really it would be a maximum of 4 new weapons, at the expense of the Weaver mechanic (which I'm guessing you don't like). And that's ignoring the question of whether there's a sensible way to distribute those skills across weapons like that.

This was the proposal on Ele in that thread...

“Elementalist

*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…

Attunements become *self only Toggle Buffs that affect weapon skills. Only 1 can be active at a time…

1. F1 Fire Attunement toggle- Attune to fire and gain a X% chance to cause AoE Fire burst with any weapon attack.
2. F2 Water Attunement toggle- Attune to water and gain a X% chance to heal self with any weapon attack.
3. F3 Air Attunement toggle- Attune to air and gain a X% reduction to weapon swap cooldowns and gain swiftness.
4. F4 Earth Attunement toggle- Attune to earth and gain a X% reduction to Direct Damage.

OR

Alternate Attunement ideas… Summon unique Elemental pets that have various roles and skills. Only 1 pet can be active at any time. These pets have a health bar.

1. F1- Unique Fire Element DPS pet
2. F2- Unique Water Element HEALING SUPPORT pet
3. F3- Unique Air Element NON-HEAL Support pet
4. F4- Unique Earth Element CONTROL pet

• 2 weapon slots• New E-Spec ONLY needs a max 7 new weapon skills now (and obviously 5 slot skills)• Better Condition management”

Oh, I see. That sounds like it would lead to a much blander version of Elementalist than we currently have - in fact it sounds basically like a Guardian that can only have one virtue active at once. Don't get me wrong, I agree that there are a lot of problems with Elementalist, but making it more like the other professions doesn't appeal to me as a way of fixing them.

[Swagger.1459]

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Elementalist*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…”

Each Elementalist weapon has at least 8 skills (for an off-hand), so you'd need at least 80 skills for 10 new weapons. In fact, you'd need more than that because there aren't 10 off-hand weapons. Also, 12 of those 50 skills you mention are attack chains for the sword that only make sense as auto-attacks, so really it's 1 main hand weapon, plus 30 other skills, which could give you at most 3 new (off-hand) weapons (with 6 skills left over). So really it would be a maximum of 4 new weapons, at the expense of the Weaver mechanic (which I'm guessing you don't like). And that's ignoring the question of whether there's a sensible way to distribute those skills across weapons like that.

This was the proposal on Ele in that thread...

“Elementalist

*Something to consider… As of now, Elementalist has a GRAND TOTAL of 146 weapon skills across 8 weapons. Weaver alone added a WHOPPING 50 WEAPON SKILLS… If changes to Elementalist were made, those 50 skills from that 1 Elite could have covered giving Elementalist 10, out of a potential pool of 14, weapons that are not accessible as of yet (see weapon stuff below for what I mean)… This is what I would do with this profession (yes, I would blow it up and rebuild)…

Attunements become *self only Toggle Buffs that affect weapon skills. Only 1 can be active at a time…

1. F1 Fire Attunement toggle- Attune to fire and gain a X% chance to cause AoE Fire burst with any weapon attack.
2. F2 Water Attunement toggle- Attune to water and gain a X% chance to heal self with any weapon attack.
3. F3 Air Attunement toggle- Attune to air and gain a X% reduction to weapon swap cooldowns and gain swiftness.
4. F4 Earth Attunement toggle- Attune to earth and gain a X% reduction to Direct Damage.

OR

Alternate Attunement ideas… Summon unique Elemental pets that have various roles and skills. Only 1 pet can be active at any time. These pets have a health bar.

1. F1- Unique Fire Element DPS pet
2. F2- Unique Water Element HEALING SUPPORT pet
3. F3- Unique Air Element NON-HEAL Support pet
4. F4- Unique Earth Element CONTROL pet

• 2 weapon slots• New E-Spec ONLY needs a max 7 new weapon skills now (and obviously 5 slot skills)• Better Condition management”

Oh, I see. That sounds like it would lead to a much blander version of Elementalist than we currently have - in fact it sounds basically like a Guardian that can only have one virtue active at once. Don't get me wrong, I agree that there are a lot of problems with Elementalist, but making it more like the other professions doesn't appeal to me as a way of fixing them.

There is nothing in that hypothetical that’s like guardian at all. And the premise of the entire idea is to get rid of the design “fat” that drastically slows profession development and gets rid of unnecessary designs that make professions extremely unbalanced.

Also, I played a game where frameworks were the same, even offering sets of similar optional skills to choose from, yet that game had more unique builds and roles to play, and more balance. Go figure.

A quote to further explain...

@Swagger.1459 said:This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

"Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Concealment
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Fighting
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Flight
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leadership
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leaping
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Medicine
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Presence
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Speed
• https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Teleportation

ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

Also a quote from that interview...

"Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

"Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

"Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

"Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

"Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Iozeph.5617 said:We never needed e-specs. They're a stupid feature and they've wrecked just about every mode the game has.

Instead we could have had a brand new, single profession introduced for each expansion pack, tied directly to the theme of that pack. There'd have been resources to develop a story better explaining why that new profession has been introduced instead of the scattershot approach we were given where all you do is throw points at something and BAM! You're a reaper, or a scrapper, or whatever. Why? Who cares. Just also do this unexplained gathering achievement to get an ascended weapon because reasons that are never given. Does anybody not see the problem with this?

Core specs could have simply been given access to a new weapon per pack that broadens their abilities without over tipping the game's balance. You tailor a short story for each profession explaining why the new weapon is necessary- because it helps that particular profession better fight the creatures found in those new maps/biomes and you allow them to use it from beginning to end similar to the old weapon experience development from launch. Further more you get rid of weapon-specific traits across all professions and instead further develop traits around core specs based on the profession's identity and the role to be fulfilled by those discrete trait lines .

In the long run you end up with a much more stable game because the heart of those professions remains familiar and thematic. Also, you lower the actual workload of balance because instead of going from eight, to nine, then eighteen, then twenty seven separate professions to balance across all modes, you go from eight, to nine, to ten etc.

This way each new addition to the profession roster is free to be unshackled by worries of a core spec over powering it. Power creep becomes if not irrelevant, then at least more manageable.

Imagine if instead of the Revenant, the Druid, renamed the Celestial, was introduced? It has its own set of weapons, staff, mace, shield, dagger. It fits into the theme of the jungle, as well as the story of the exalted and the people writing it have more opportunity to fill in the back story and tie it back better to GW1, but are able to do so within the game instead of having to explain what it is and why it's there via a reddit post or a stream session.

Imagine the introduction of a Sunspear profession for POF, Where it introduces the use of land-based spears with shields. A medium armour wearing profession that is a more offensive oriented counterpart to the guardian. Giving up the defencive aspects of the guardian for desert based magics centering around application of offencive, fire based attacks and groups shields for the party in combat. Playing through the expansion the story of the Sunspears, their revival, and their refuge becomes more a journey of discovery and important to the player instead of just another faction the player has to appease in order to get from point A to point B.

Imagine not knowing where Rytlock was for all this time and only seeing him revealed when he reemerges from the mists, in the borderlands of the north, between Norn territory and old Ascalaon -at a time when his people are once again threatening to tear each other apart. He returns changed. Not only his attitudes but his whole demeanor, because he no longer walks alone. He's somber, quieter, wiser because he carries with him the perspectives and recollections and minds of those who've gone before. People who strove with the best intentions and, for whatever reasons there were, also saw the destruction or perversion of their people in their respective quests to solve an ancient problem/riddle. These are the things he brings to his people in order to try and steer them from the same terrible course. Imagine players making this journey with Rytlocke, seeking a personal weapon of legend as a focus, channeling the spirits of Legends as Revenants, disciples of a new order dedicated to warning the people of the present against the follies of the past. Exposing the natures of false prophets old enough to have either witnessed these disasters or even to have helped bring them about in some way - Jormag.

This is the squandered potential of Guild Wars. 2. It's a shame we didn't get it.

Will have to disagree. ANet's architecture here has raised the bar when I consider future games. Take ESO, one class an expansion feels way too little too late. Take prior games. When a new class was introduced everyone would be the new class until the shiny wore off, so trying to tell balance was lost because everyone was the new class so how could tell it was out of balance. If anything I would fault them on either sharing the direction they were going or helping us understand their roadmap. Example if we are talking archetypes and they are planning on each class having one then let us know that. General role engi is: core, condi engi is: y, power engi is: a, support engi is:b, healing engi is: c. No I see it as they aimed higher than other game but that does mean more challenge and for people that don't alt even more angst.

I do agree that more links to the elites within the story gives them more background and footing into the wider world. Take the introduction of the deadeye in PoF, that gave us more of framework and give more meaning to the class.

[Teratus.2859]

@Swagger.1459 said:

4- The team can produce more balanced E-specs more regularly, and then sell those as profession E-spec pack updates... Which means players get profession updates more often while the team makes money in the process... That’s a win-win for everyone.

E-specs need to come with expansions because they need heavy testing and balancing to avoid flat out breaking the game.I maintain the stance that introducing elite specs in anything but an expansion would be a seriously bad idea and likely would screw up so much of the games balance.

To add to that the idea of selling E-specs as pack updates on the gemstore would be a monumentally bad idea.There's already some voices saying expansions are pay 2 win because of E-specs.Selling future ones on the store would be like throwing rocketfuel on that fire.. not to mention it may even drive a large number of players away from the game if their characters are locked out of new meta's and therefore unwatend in many modes PvP, Raids and other content.

There's no way players would be ok with that.

[Swagger.1459]

@Teratus.2859 said:@Swagger.1459 said:

4- The team can produce more balanced E-specs more regularly, and then sell those as profession E-spec pack updates... Which means players get profession updates more often while the team makes money in the process... That’s a win-win for everyone.

E-specs need to come with expansions because they need heavy testing and balancing to avoid flat out breaking the game.I maintain the stance that introducing elite specs in anything but an expansion would be a seriously bad idea and likely would screw up so much of the games balance.

To add to that the idea of selling E-specs as pack updates on the gemstore would be a monumentally bad idea.There's already some voices saying expansions are pay 2 win because of E-specs.Selling future ones on the store would be like throwing rocketfuel on that fire.. not to mention it may even drive a large number of players away from the game if their characters are locked out of new meta's and therefore unwatend in many modes PvP, Raids and other content.

There's no way players would be ok with that.

Well, we aren’t getting xpacs, but they aren’t “ruled out”. And you’re wrong, completely wrong, or just not paying attention to the past around here.

[Teratus.2859]

@Swagger.1459 said:And you’re wrong, completely wrong, or just not paying attention to the past around here.

Elaborate?

[Hashberry.4510]

So spend 7 more years looking for balance you won't be satisfied with.

[Thornwolf.9721]

New elite specs at least bring the high potential of being good on their own, If the upcoming death-magic rework is anything to go by then Id rather them just continue making new stuff and not rework anything. Their reworks are like a flip of a coin they are either massively impressive or horribly disappointing and Id rather spare myself the worry and just have them continue forward.

Im kinda tired of each class in a specific area getting destroyed, and further pigeon-holing us into specific niche/gimicky builds.