just a reminder: most MMOs u are charged to change traitlines.

[ugrakarma.9416]

as titles says, for example in Neverwinter from PWE(pay to win entertainment), if u mistakenly pickup wrong traitlines u will need pay real money to "reset" the status. in these games free theorycraft is a luxury that only rich guys do.

Free change of traits its one big suprises to me when i come to GW2, at first, im even was thinking its was a bug or a unitended feature "im doing something wrong?theyre not charging me to change it?".

[sigur.9453]

Whataboutism.Thanks for your contributionPS: "Most" is a big word if you tell one example

[Seera.5916]

People aren't made that they are monetizing it in and of itself.

It's a culmination of a few things:

1. They allowed arcdps to have build templates in it for awhile now. Under the stipulation that they be removed once ANet releases their own version. The creator of arcdps has stated that he will comply and arcdps will no longer have build templates once the official ones go live in about a month.
2. Arcdps allowed for practically unlimited number of builds (there is a limit I believe, but it's high enough to not matter)
3. From what I understand arcdps handles some parts of the swapping in a better way than ANet's based on what is known. I believe related around the legendary sigils and runes.
4. The starting base number you get for build and equipment storage is low for those who would actually be using this feature from what I've seen people say.

Just one or maybe 2 of the above were there, maybe people wouldn't be this upset. But all of them and people are understandably upset at this change.

[Strider Pj.2193]

And it was free in the precursor to this game.

Not sure how this (in either case) is relevant.

[Substance E.4852]

You can swap out your class build at any time in standard WoW

You can swap skill/attribute points in ESO for in game currency

You can literally change your character's entire class at any time in FF14

Not sure where this "Most" you speak of is coming from

[SinisterSlay.6973]

Do you mean mobile mmos? Or some of those Korean ones?

I'm pretty sure anet makes changing free because it let's them change skills and balance freely without having to give server wide free resets on every patch that they change something.

[Astralporing.1957]

Well, yeah, Sturgeon's law does say that 90% of anything is kitten. It's no surprise this applies to MMOs as well. I'm not sure if comparing GW2 with those kinds of games does it any favour, though.

[Thornwolf.9721]

1. It was a CORE component of Guild wars 1
2. Its clear they took this long to make it, in order to figure out how to monetize it. (Im sure WvW alliances will be much the same, it is not a good look considering how long this has been blabbed about.)
3. More value out of character slots/new characters as they can be tailor made for a specific niche and build type. This then means people will just stick to that, ontop of birthdays and the ability to clear the maps for black lion keys (Potentially) you will get more bang for your buck with this method.
4. This is a core mechanic in WoW, ESO, Final Fantasy and most other relevant MMO-rpgs have this feature as a core mechanism. So no you're 100% wrong and shilling for them, It's fine you don't see a problem with it but other people have a rite to their opinion.
5. This doesn't look good for other potential features that we have asked for and this is NOT expansion level content. So what are they gonna do E-spec 40$ packs now? Are they gonna charge entrance fees too WvW alliances? This just makes us ask WAAAAY to many questions, everyone told me they wouldn't do this when I said a year ago that this will be moneitized and here we are. So what else will we have to pay to get access too? Bank space, material space, Character slots, Cosmetics, Make-over kits, Unlimited gathering tools are all fine things we can pay for if we want. A core feature from the previous title that we've been asking for since launch, and being told its being looked into for years is not.

I never cared about it, I don't care about it. And more importantly I already intended not to use it, so for me its a non-issue but I Can understand why people are upset and why this looks shady. This also just again makes us ask, "What else " will be given this "Treatment".

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I feel like we need jim sterling on the case. This is clearly an issue of a developer creating an artificial problem to sell an solutions. There is no reason template need to be stored serviver side

[Firebeard.1746]

@"Substance E.4852" said:You can swap out your class build at any time in standard WoW

You can swap skill/attribute points in ESO for in game currency

You can literally change your character's entire class at any time in FF14

Not sure where this "Most" you speak of is coming from

All of those are sub based games. Your QoL in ESO is terribad without craft bags, which is why I quit. In addition to gatcha style cosmetics.

[Cyninja.2954]

snip cause double post

[Cyninja.2954]

Nothing new here.

Most of the popular MMORPGs in the western market are either Pay to Play via a subscription, or maybe pay for a subscription or have severe drawbacks.

GW2 is pretty much the cheapest, least intrusive MMORPG where you get pretty much the entire content for free after an initial (by now hilariously cheap) game purchase. Also one of the only ones which allows in game currency into delux currency exchanges.

Net result is:While most gamers/customers spend a minimum amount on their MMORPG constantly, GW2 gets the big free to play crowd which expects everything to be free and more. People get hissy fits over ever little thing here.

It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

[Substance E.4852]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Substance E.4852" said:You can swap out your class build at any time in standard WoW

You can swap skill/attribute points in ESO for in game currency

You can literally change your character's entire class at any time in FF14

Not sure where this "Most" you speak of is coming from

All of those are sub based games. Your QoL in ESO is terribad without craft bags, which is why I quit. In addition to gatcha style cosmetics.

You get $15 worth of cash shop fun bux with your sub and GW2 also has "gatcha style cosmetics" my dude

try harder

And seriously, get out of here with this "ew sub fees" bullshitPaying $15+ a month because you "choose to" isnt better than a compulsory $15 flat fee just because your favorite game does the former

[Cyninja.2954]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.

[Dante.1508]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.Thats why we are here, and not playing those games anymore..

[Cyninja.2954]

@Dante.1508 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.Thats why we are here, and not playing those games anymore..

Then keep playing GW2 and start complaining once monetization here reaches industry standards, which we are far off still.

Or accept that the game might close shop, there is enough "maintanance mode" and "end of game doom" threads around currently which point in that direction.

Last I checked, no company or employees live off of love and air only.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Substance E.4852 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:You can swap out your class build at any time in standard WoW

You can swap skill/attribute points in ESO for in game currency

You can literally change your character's entire class at any time in FF14

Not sure where this "Most" you speak of is coming from

All of those are sub based games. Your QoL in ESO is terribad without craft bags, which is why I quit. In addition to gatcha style cosmetics.

You get $15 worth of cash shop fun bux with your sub and GW2 also has "gatcha style cosmetics" my dude

try harder

And seriously, get out of here with this "ew sub fees" kittenPaying $15+ a month because you "choose to" isnt better than a compulsory $15 flat fee just because your favorite game does the former

It's still compulsory nonetheless. I don't see how you're disproving my main point. Also the sub is the most expensive way to buy cash shop rewards, there's usually sales that are 40-50% off crowns at least once a year, so you're still getting ripped off. Also the last time i played eso the only mounts you could directly buy were horribly dull. Like you could still buy the princess monoke jackal if you wanted. So at least as far as my experience goes, you're still underplaying Bethesda's greed, that would have only been a gatcha mount in ESO.

And yes, opting to pay is better than not, i was spending more than a sub fees' worth on cash shop in eso, which is why i was so angry about craft bags. Right now, i'm paying 20 a month at anet. I haven't even decided what i'm spending it on yet, but at least i get to choose instead of having what I get forced on me. Anet is kitten compared to Bethesda's tactics. If we voluntarily throw more cash at anet they don't have to actively think about how to milk us so they can spend dev resources on actually making the game good.

[Obtena.7952]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Nothing new here.

Most of the popular MMORPGs in the western market are either Pay to Play via a subscription, or maybe pay for a subscription or have severe drawbacks.

GW2 is pretty much the cheapest, least intrusive MMORPG where you get pretty much the entire content for free after an initial (by now hilariously cheap) game purchase. Also one of the only ones which allows in game currency into delux currency exchanges.

Net result is:While most gamers/customers spend a minimum amount on their MMORPG constantly, GW2 gets the big free to play crowd which expects everything to be free and more. People get hissy fits over ever little thing here.

It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

I'm starting to think there needs to be more of what SWTOR does ... BOTH a sub AND a store. I used to think free players were the worst kind of player .. but I'm realizing the worst players are the ones that think they should get the most by giving the least. At least free players aren't delusional about what they get ... they are even thankful they can play for free.

[Aylpse.6280]

Because some Korean goobley gloop company is pay 2 win doesn't excuse any other company to do it. In the golden age, you paid a bit of in game currency to respec and unlock skill tree slots. The people playing Gw2 right now have stuck by Anet in their time of need. This is the equivalent of sticking a knife into the wound of their hemorrhaging playerbase. I can smell NCsoft's hand in this a mile away...

[Obtena.7952]

@Aylpse.6280 said:Because some Korean goobley gloop company is pay 2 win doesn't excuse any other company to do it. In the golden age, you paid a bit of in game currency to respec and unlock skill tree slots. The people playing Gw2 right now have stuck by Anet in their time of need. This is the equivalent of sticking a knife into the wound of their hemorrhaging playerbase. I can smell NCsoft's hand in this a mile away...

That statement makes little sense ... templates aren't pay 2 win features. They are actually features that people DEMONSTRATED to want ingame.

[Aylpse.6280]

They are actually features that people DEMONSTRATED to want ingame.

Your misreading, my reply was in response to OP. Just because PerfectPay2win charges for respecs and the like, doesn't mean we should suffer this kind of monetization on a BASIC QOL FEATURE. Sure, it's not p2w, but it's some kitten and incredibly underhanded.

[perilisk.1874]

@"Obtena.7952" said:I'm starting to think there needs to be more of what SWTOR does ... BOTH a sub AND a store. I used to think free players were the worst kind of player .. but I'm realizing the worst players are the ones that think they should get the most by giving the least. At least free players aren't delusional about what they get ... they are even thankful they can play for free.

Attempting to shame people into being taken advantage of isn't actually going to go anywhere -- it doesn't make a serious attempt to address the idea that things are being monetized in a scummy way, so it just sounds fatuous.

"I think all these stupid little fees my bank charges are sleazy and ridiculous!""Oh, so you think banks should just work for free, huh? Gosh, you sure are selfish."

Understand this -- in any business, there are things people expect to pay for, and things they expect to get for free, within reason, and that doesn't make them selfish or bad people. The same people who are pissed off about build templates might well shell out $30 for a mount skin. People go to a fancy restaurant, they can be perfectly fine paying $15 for a nice dessert, but if they saw on their receipt that they got charged a small surcharge for napkins, or utensils, or water, they would be ticked off.

Also, understand that Arenanet is providing a version of this feature which is deliberately, massively crippled, solely to be able to profit from it. There's no other explanation that fits the facts we know so far. They showed that you can easily import/export to a text string. Effectively, a build template is a text string. There's absolutely no harm in keeping that list of text strings client side, they can validated against game data as needed, and the list could be... maybe not unlimited, but very very big. But if they did that, they couldn't directly nickel and dime you to use it. So instead, not only do you have to pay out the wazoo for something with zero marginal cost to them, but even if you decided to pay the absolute maximum, you would have access to a library comprising a grand total of... 24 builds. Twenty. Four. Across 9 professions. Slightly less than three builds per profession. That's a joke for a free version of the feature, much less the be all and end all of paid versions. And it's all because they had to justify improving their game to some bean counter, in all likelihood.

[Obtena.7952]

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm starting to think there needs to be more of what SWTOR does ... BOTH a sub AND a store. I used to think free players were the worst kind of player .. but I'm realizing the worst players are the ones that think they should get the most by giving the least. At least free players aren't delusional about what they get ... they are even thankful they can play for free.

Attempting to shame people into being taken advantage of isn't actually going to go anywhere

If you recognize that as being shamed, then you realize the truth in it.

If you think this isn't something people should expect to pay for, your expectations are massively out of whack. I'm not accusing people of being bad or selfish because they don't want to pay; that's a choice people have to decide for themselves. They are bad and selfish because they think they shouldn't have to pay because they got it for free elsewhere ... illegally.

You're big problem is that you set the standard of what you expect to get based on a non-competitive and illegal offering. That's a ridiculous standard to hold any service provider to.

[Obtena.7952]

@Aylpse.6280 said:

They are actually features that

people

DEMONSTRATED to

want ingame

.

Your misreading, my reply was in response to OP. Just because PerfectPay2win charges for respecs and the like, doesn't mean we should suffer this kind of monetization on a

BASIC QOL FEATURE

. Sure, it's not p2w, but it's some kitten and incredibly underhanded.

Just because you feel it's a basic QOL feature doesn't mean you should get it for free (in fact, you ARE getting some for free in case you didn't know). That's just some made up rule to victimize yourself and criminalize Anet for essentially running their business. That's ridiculous.

Don't like it? Don't use them ... or don't play. Why patronize a company that you think takes advantage of you by offering products you deem basic QOL features.