just a reminder: most MMOs u are charged to change traitlines.

[Erasculio.2914]

@Obtena.7952 said:If you think this isn't something people should expect to pay for, your expectations are massively out of whack. I'm not accusing people of being bad or selfish because they don't want to pay; that's a choice people have to decide for themselves. They are bad and selfish because they think they shouldn't have to pay because they got it for free elsewhere ... illegally.

Yeah, arcdps is completely illegal, I heard the guy using it next door has been taken away by the FBI. Watch out, who knows who will be next? ;)

[Obtena.7952]

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:If you think this isn't something people should expect to pay for, your expectations are massively out of whack. I'm not accusing people of being bad or selfish because they don't want to pay; that's a choice people have to decide for themselves. They are bad and selfish because they think they shouldn't have to pay because they got it for free elsewhere ... illegally.

Yeah, arcdps is completely illegal, I heard the guy using it next door has been taken away by the FBI. Watch out, who knows who will be next? ;)

This is cute, but it breaks the TOS ... I mean it's not a capital crime OK .. it's about as illegal as you can get in the context of gaming.

[Erasculio.2914]

@"Obtena.7952" said:This is cute image, but nothing you're going to say changes the fact that it breaks the TOS ...

Then how about something ArenaNet's Chris Cleary said?

Then again, maybe he's a FBI mole under disguise? :o

[perilisk.1874]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm starting to think there needs to be more of what SWTOR does ... BOTH a sub AND a store. I used to think free players were the worst kind of player .. but I'm realizing the worst players are the ones that think they should get the most by giving the least. At least free players aren't delusional about what they get ... they are even thankful they can play for free.

Attempting to shame people into being taken advantage of isn't actually going to go anywhere

If you recognize that as being shamed, then you realize the truth in it.

If you think this isn't something people should expect to pay for, your expectations are massively out of whack.

I recognize it as an attempt to shame. I didn't say it worked, in fact I think it makes people even more angry than they already were, since they know exactly how much they spend and when, and in many cases it's a false accusation from a smug and self-righteous kitten. You think the game is going to be better off if petty little cash grabs drive away people who are already dropping tens or hundreds of dollars on the game a year due largely to goodwill and liking how arenanet runs things versus other companies?

You are acting under the delusion that the people who don't feel it's appropriate to pay for the kingly privilege of accessing a few lines of client-side text in-game (you know, like your options settings), instead of in a notepad, are somehow freeloaders, that people who are about to lose access to feature they have grown accustomed to, that they cannot even get back by paying if they wanted to, should be happy that their gameplay experience has been sacrificed on the altar of Korean profits.

Consider that usually these sorts of cashgrabs fall into a few categories:

1. Random oopsie, where company legitimately does something boneheaded without it really meaning anything bigger. But usually they course correct once the plan fails to survive contact with the enemy.
2. Arrogant new management that (wrongly) thinks it knows the company's market better than the old management. The only difference is that it isn't accidental, and that arrogant new management might prefer to run the company into the ground and float away on their golden parachute, rather than admit that they were wrong and caused the company's problems.
3. Sheer, panicked desperation from a game that is either literally financially unsustainable, or that, while it could trundle along just fine, has received Ultimatums and is waiting for the bullet in the back of the head from Corporate Masters any day.
4. The bullet is already loaded, and corporate is just trying to see how much it more it can squeeze from the marks before it pulls the plug.

Well, let's hope it was just a one-off bad call.

[Iozeph.5617]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.

I don't take your word for it. I have played several of them. Wasn't into playing them anymore doesn't mean they were bad but I'd settled here after leaving lotro in the fiasco that was the 'great mmo migration.' I also mentioned lotro because it's a prime example of what happens when a company(turbine - I won't answer to standing stone games as they're after my time) doesn't listen to its fan base. They also added lootboxes and other one armed bandit -style content to fleece players of their money. If only for these mentions they're a worthy example GW2 would do well to learn from.

And Swotor follows the same model as lotro, buy once go from free to premium and have several basic QOL features permanently unlocked. Both have the appearance of being about the same vintage even though Lotro still looks about the same, if a little better IMO, both of them suffer from terrible rubber banding/lag. One is science fantasy the other is just fantasy.

You mention most of these other games as seeing play next to GW2. It's the other way around. Because if we had put GW2 on a list with them chances are better than good it would be at the absolute bottom or at least tied for the bottom with many of the worst in terms of player satisfaction. These comparisions are wishful thinking and moreover placing this game on a pedestal it doesn't deserve -hasn't done for the last five or more years. I mean yes go ahead compare all those games to this one. Compare what they get, how much of it and how often the updates come.

Compare community interaction with their teams and that of the gw2 community's level of interaction with team leads here. Guild wars two suffers there as well.

Compare the lack of an open testing server. It suffers.

Compare the complete disegard for balance in competitive modes. There's a lot of top community contributors here. Streamers too. At least there used to be but they've left too. But just nod back and forth- fingers well plated in ears and deny the significance of those departures.

Money. I've spent plenty of money on the gem store but that was years ago when it seemed there was a hope that more than one segment here would be heard and rewarded for their loyalty. I've maxed out my collections, maxed out bank space, maxed out bag slots, purchased most of the noveleties I cared for, many many outfits, minis, dyes, and skins - you name it - and that ended when content dried up because it became 'too hard to do.'

Well it didn't become any harder taking my money did it? If anything it became easier for them because they had to do nothing for it- that is until I stopped. I don't spend. I don't get things unless it's something my wife truly wants- because it's worth it for me to make her happy in the game- even if I'm not. If I'm given something as a gift that's probably the only time I'll get something relatively current from the store. I know the price of things and If I had to tot it up it would probably well exceed several lifetime memberships in one of these other games still offering them. And if not that - it it were translated to sub fees only then I'd probably be set for at least five yeard if not the decade to come. As and aside many of those games actually give you their equivalent of gems every month for being lifetime or paying monthly. They also have login awards so that's a wash too.

Here you get nothing.

And somehow. Somehow these others which Guild Wars 2 only wishes it were manage to turn out decent, timely content for their respective modes without whinging, without making excuses, and without hiding from their players as if they've been touched in their no-no places by a serial violater. Nobody's fooled by the recent spate of postings from the development staff here. That shift comes across as little more than bailing water out of the boat for appearance's sake before it sinks.

So yes, when it comes to paying for any of these online games I know how these transactions work. I know the costs, and would wager that for many -including myself- that apart from having a friend- or family as is my case- that what's keeping many people here is that feeling of sunk cost - not the lack of a better place to go. But even that's an illusion. It's pixels, pixels that beyond a bit of initial work are duplicated infinitely for nothing. If we're both being honest here these sort of set ups are a bigger screwing than the mealy mouthed justifications of 'R&D' from Big Pharma. At least they still have to eploy a minimum of closed and open trials and submit their findings for review before selling what is still a physical product(safe or not) to the public.

It only truly sinks in how bad a state this game is in when you stand around a community hub and see all the players AFK- all dressed up and no place to go- rather no place they want to go. Not even one of the recently-introduced living world maps that is mysteriously empty because it's boring.

But go ahead. Continue presuming to condescend to people about what they do or don't know. Or better yet, get mock-offended, report it, and have the post deleted.

Tell more people to leave too afterwards because that'll help so much. I mean it isn't as if they aren't doing just that and haven't been for years. Why else would we need megaservers and alliances(the someday that never comes) to obfuscate true active numbers? Get all the malcontents out of here. Make it safe for whatever ghosts are left rattling their chains through the empty halls so they're free to stay and be kings and queens(or Rulers if a gender-neutral pronoun i demanded) of this Nowhere Land.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.

I don't take your word for it. I have played several of them. Wasn't into playing them anymore doesn't mean they were bad but I'd settled here after leaving lotro in the fiasco that was the 'great mmo migration.' I also mentioned lotro because it's a prime example of what happens when a company(turbine - I won't answer to standing stone games as they're after my time) doesn't listen to its fan base. They also added lootboxes and other one armed bandit -style content to fleece players of their money. If only for these mentions they're a worthy example GW2 would do well to learn from.

LotRO had a ton of issues, many of which went beyond their monetization model too. Obviously their aggresive monetization change hurt the game on top.

The game was also subscritpion based and later optional subscription based with again heavy drawbacks if you didn't subscribe with payed expansions. GW2 is no where near that, on the contrary, all PvE game content continues to get released free of charge for active players.

As far as wishes to the playerbase:

• people have been begging for years for build tempaltes, even telling Arenanet they would be willing to pay for them. Where is the customer honesty here?
• you are assuming as to how many players are affected "negatively", for the vast majority this will be a direct upgrade since the vast majority of players does not use arc build temaplates
• the only alternative currently is a 3rd party addon which is tolerated by Arenanet with a clear stipulation: once the official build templates release, it has to be discontinued

@Iozeph.5617 said:And Swotor follows the same model as lotro, buy once go from free to premium and have several basic QOL features permanently unlocked. Both have the appearance of being about the same vintage even though Lotro still looks about the same, if a little better IMO, both of them suffer from terrible rubber banding/lag. One is science fantasy the other is just fantasy.

Technical isues in other games come from usually 2 places:

• lack of funding for better hardware
• lack of funding for fixing the program issues

Now take a guess where funding comes from?

@Iozeph.5617 said:You mention most of these other games as seeing play next to GW2. It's the other way around. Because if we had put GW2 on a list with them chances are better than good it would be at the absolute bottom or at least tied for the bottom with many of the worst in terms of player satisfaction. These comparisions are wishful thinking and moreover placing this game on a pedestal it doesn't deserve -hasn't done for the last five or more years. I mean yes go ahead compare all those games to this one. Compare what they get, how much of it and how often the updates come.

I do, hence why I mentioned I would love for a subscription model so part of the art team can start working on in game assets. You are literally agreeing with what I said:Heavier monetization leads to more content.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Compare community interaction with their teams and that of the gw2 community's level of interaction with team leads here. Guild wars two suffers there as well.

Sorry, but no. Community interaction accross the board in MMORGPS is low with some exception here and there like Warframe or PoE. People there to get hissy fits.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Compare the lack of an open testing server. It suffers.

Testing servers cost money to maintain and opperate. Testing servers would also not mesh well with this games semi stable economy (one of the onle stable economies in western MMORPGS next to Eve Online). Test servers are an additional service. Additional services cost money.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Compare the complete disegard for balance in competitive modes. There's a lot of top community contributors here. Streamers too. At least there used to be but they've left too. But just nod back and forth- fingers well plated in ears and deny the significance of those departures.

Yes, it is unfortunate that the Pvp and WvW communities see so much lack of developement. Unfortunately resources go where the money is. Money is where players are spending it. In this case, not pvp and wvw.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Money. I've spent plenty of money on the gem store but that was years ago when it seemed there was a hope that more than one segment here would be heard and rewarded for their loyalty. I've maxed out my collections, maxed out bank space, maxed out bag slots, purchased most of the noveleties I cared for, many many outfits, minis, dyes, and skins - you name it - and that ended when content dried up because it became 'too hard to do.'Well it didn't become any harder taking my money did it? If anything it became easier for them because they had to do nothing for it- that is until I stopped. I don't spend. I don't get things unless it's something my wife truly wants- because it's worth it for me to make her happy in the game- even if I'm not. If I'm given something as a gift that's probably the only time I'll get something relatively current from the store. I know the price of things and If I had to tot it up it would probably well exceed several lifetime memberships in one of these other games still offering them. And if not that - it it were translated to sub fees only then I'd probably be set for at least five yeard if not the decade to come. As and aside many of those games actually give you their equivalent of gems every month for being lifetime or paying monthly. They also have login awards so that's a wash too.

Here you get nothing.

So you are currently freeloading. All past content while you were supporting the game is still available to you. You are literally expecting more content for 0 support. Also don't gimme the line: one I'm happy I'll support the game again, because that's what people always love to say, then not follow through. If you are unsatisfied, don't spend money on the game and/or leave but don't come complaining because you are not part of the active supporting structure for the game.

If you'd spend a subscription amount of money on gems monthly (which results in around 1200 gems monthly). You'd have no issue with getting anything you want, even these upgrades.

@Iozeph.5617 said:sinp

Goign to adress the remained of your rant post like this: if you are unhappy, leave. You seem out of touch with the game for a long time building up rage rage and frustration. No point in keeping to a game which you do not enjoy. Be honest with yourself and what you enjoy.

If you do enjoy the game and are just venting, then you are basically a hypocrite because you are drawing enjoyment from other people's work, and those developers deserve to get payed.

[Acheron.4731]

@Seera.5916 said:People aren't made that they are monetizing it in and of itself.

It's a culmination of a few things:

1. They allowed arcdps to have build templates in it for awhile now. Under the stipulation that they be removed once ANet releases their own version. The creator of arcdps has stated that he will comply and arcdps will no longer have build templates once the official ones go live in about a month.
2. Arcdps allowed for practically unlimited number of builds (there is a limit I believe, but it's high enough to not matter)
3. From what I understand arcdps handles some parts of the swapping in a better way than ANet's based on what is known. I believe related around the legendary sigils and runes.
4. The starting base number you get for build and equipment storage is low for those who would actually be using this feature from what I've seen people say.

Just one or maybe 2 of the above were there, maybe people wouldn't be this upset. But all of them and people are understandably upset at this change.

not to mention that build templates was mentioned in the Aug 30th announcement and the whole premise of the announcement was based off of what was being brought to you 'FREE'

[Despond.2174]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.

I love GW2 but this is apples vs orange. If you're a moderate to above player in GW2 you will end up spending nearly a sub a month anyway for extras and QOL stuff. Even more if you want to jump start getting a legendary etc.

Games with SUBS and p2w cash shops are ofc not ok, but people don't support that very well. Just a pure sub = you have access to everything and never have to pay any more. Sub MMOs actually are much cheaper than most cash shop MMOs. A lot of people would rather play a flat small fee than pay nearly double that a month for a cash-shop system that has uncapped P2W - not saying GW2 is but you have plenty of MMOs like this.

I think B2P model with a sensible cash shop is a very good system and GW2 cash shop isn't P2W because the gear system isn't linear, you can easily attain the best gear with in-game farming in a like a month. However, there are many things like character slots, bank bags etc you are compelled--not technically forced--if you want to have a better time. Which is fine, but when you start adding it to every QOL you are going to get disgruntled people because if you average what you are spending it works out to a sub anyway.

Remember also those MMOs you listed are under pressure to constantly update their gear and pve/pvp tiers. Subs basically demand they have to, otherwise you can't get away with a sub. GW2 for many has been slow burning, and they can get away with that because we are basically playing for free now; but you can't compared content updates from like let's say FF14 compared to GW2.

GW2 could not be a sub MMO with how it's laying out content atm, people would unsub at fast rates - hence why it's not following a sub model but that's my point.

Also for those using ARC I can see how this is actually a step backwards but I have no idea what the current stance on ARC usage is from AANET etc so I can't really expand on that anymore. If it's officially legal then this update is definitely worse for those players.

At the end of the day I think it's more because people have wanted this QOL for so long and maybe even some people are returning because of this update but feel it's something that shouldn't be a part of a pay wall. We had technically 3 templates for all 3 modes anyway, so the 3 free ones feels less of an impact.

I mean for me personally 3-4 would be plenty but I can definitely understand how this announcement has lost it's punch for those wanting more. Couple that with some uncertainty/concerns with future content, people are kind of excused in feeling this way.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

On the sub thing, I remeber the excuse for sub fees were, some years ago, the server costs. ANerf proved with GW1 this was bs, and the server costs are tiny. So what are the excuses now?In other forum there was this girl that used to work in an mmorpg with cash shop company, and according to her, some people spend a ton (we're talking thousands here) each month.Of course there are people out there that refuse to waste money in game stuff (such as me), but in the end I don't think the lose that much in having a no-sub product.The biggest advantage of gw2 is having no-sub, if they started having it people would jump the ship.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Despond.2174 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.

I love GW2 but this is apples vs orange. If you're a moderate to above player in GW2 you will end up spending nearly a sub a month anyway for extras and QOL stuff. Even more if you want to jump start getting a legendary etc.

Games with SUBS and p2w cash shops are ofc not ok, but people don't support that very well. Just a pure sub = you have access to everything and never have to pay any more. Sub MMOs actually are much cheaper than most cash shop MMOs. A lot of people would rather play a flat small fee than pay nearly double that a month for a cash-shop system that has uncapped P2W - not saying GW2 is but you have plenty of MMOs like this.

True, but with enough players and "guaranteed" subs, we would see different content here too. The way it works right now: a vast majority of players do not pay for the content they consume. As far as subscription and cash shop (even WoW has cash shop mounts at 25$ per mount) is quite succesful in other games.

I think B2P model with a sensible cash shop is a very good system and GW2 cash shop isn't P2W because the gear system isn't linear, you can easily attain the best gear with in-game farming in a like a month. However, there are many things like character slots, bank bags etc you are compelled--not technically forced--if you want to have a better time. Which is fine, but when you start adding it to every QOL you are going to get disgruntled people because if you average what you are spending it works out to a sub anyway.

See and that's where opinions differ. I think the cash shop here is very sensible, especially when compared to other popular MMOs.

@Despond.2174 said:Remember also those MMOs you listed are under pressure to constantly update their gear and pve/pvp tiers. Subs basically demand they have to, otherwise you can't get away with a sub. GW2 for many has been slow burning, and they can get away with that because we are basically playing for free now; but you can't compared content updates from like let's say FF14 compared to GW2.

No you can't, true. Hence why I wish we had a subscription here so more content and less resources on monetization are required. As is right now, players who are complaining are doing so while comparing GW2 to those other games AND demanding it be free.

@Despond.2174 said:GW2 could not be a sub MMO with how it's laying out content atm, people would unsub at fast rates - hence why it's not following a sub model but that's my point.

True, at current content it couldn't. Then again, that is also a direct result of less resources for game content and more on cosmetic monetization. You can't argue that you want more things for free AND more content. The way it works is: more money buys more things, even content.

@Despond.2174 said:Also for those using ARC I can see how this is actually a step backwards but I have no idea what the current stance on ARC usage is from AANET etc so I can't really expand on that anymore. If it's officially legal then this update is definitely worse for those players.

It is tolerated under the conditions that it was discontinued once the feature is implemented in game and as long as it complies with the rules.

@Despond.2174 said:At the end of the day I think it's more because people have wanted this QOL for so long and maybe even some people are returning because of this update but feel it's something that shouldn't be a part of a pay wall. We had technically 3 templates for all 3 modes anyway, so the 3 free ones feels less of an impact.

I mean for me personally 3-4 would be plenty but I can definitely understand how this announcement has lost it's punch for those wanting more. Couple that with some uncertainty/concerns with future content, people are kind of excused in feeling this way.

I fully understand players, I simply disagree with the outrage. In the past many of us have been asking for this kind of update and were more than willing to pay for this QoL feature as to incentivize it's development. Now some players decide to flip on their past stane because it is meta to complain and whine on the forums.

[Konrad Curze.5130]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:as titles says, for example in Neverwinter from PWE(pay to win entertainment), if u mistakenly pickup wrong traitlines u will need pay real money to "reset" the status. in these games free theorycraft is a luxury that only rich guys do.

Free change of traits its one big suprises to me when i come to GW2, at first, im even was thinking its was a bug or a unitended feature "im doing something wrong?theyre not charging me to change it?".

Comparing gw2 to freemium piece of shit games

How low the mighty have fallen.

Yeah, if you compare gw2 to the predatory shit that currently plagues the industry, gw2 looks good. But for many of us that was a given and not even worthy of mention, I never understood why idiots played that type of games, they are completly atrocious

But I guess it's true tho, slowly but surely GW2 has been losing its spot in the selected group of good MMOs with wow/ff14/eso, and now the best it can muster is comparing favorably to the bulk of awful, predatory sorry excuses for games that simply exist for hammering their cash shop down people's throat.

Maybe your happy with that, I'm not

[Cyninja.2954]

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:as titles says, for example in Neverwinter from PWE(pay to win entertainment), if u mistakenly pickup wrong traitlines u will need pay real money to "reset" the status. in these games free theorycraft is a luxury that only rich guys do.

Free change of traits its one big suprises to me when i come to GW2, at first, im even was thinking its was a bug or a unitended feature "im doing something wrong?theyre not charging me to change it?".

Comparing gw2 to freemium piece of kitten games

How low the mighty have fallen.

Yeah, if you compare gw2 to the predatory kitten that currently plagues the industry, gw2 looks good. But for many of us that was a given and not even worthy of mention, I never understood why idiots played that type of games, they are completly atrocious

But I guess it's true tho, slowly but surely GW2 has been losing its spot in the selected group of good MMOs with wow/ff14/eso, and now the best it can muster is comparing favorably to the bulk of awful, predatory sorry excuses for games that simply exist for hammering their cash shop down people's throat.

Maybe your happy with that, I'm not

Complains about GW2, then compares it to 3 MMOs which all have subscriptions (and the one where the sub is voluntary has been losing ground for a while). Where you trying to prove other people's points?

The most predatory industry standards are not present in western MMORPGs but rather Sport games, cellphone games and some shooters. Please don't mention predatory monetization which plagues the industry if you do not intend to distinguish from those games.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@Substance E.4852 said:

You can literally change your character's entire class at any time in FF14

OMG you can do it LITERALLY? Holy SHIT, I mean imagine it was just figuratively. Don't overuse this damn word and don't use it wrong like 99% of the cases. I can't see this damn word anymore.

[Konrad Curze.5130]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:as titles says, for example in Neverwinter from PWE(pay to win entertainment), if u mistakenly pickup wrong traitlines u will need pay real money to "reset" the status. in these games free theorycraft is a luxury that only rich guys do.

Free change of traits its one big suprises to me when i come to GW2, at first, im even was thinking its was a bug or a unitended feature "im doing something wrong?theyre not charging me to change it?".

Comparing gw2 to freemium piece of kitten games

How low the mighty have fallen.

Yeah, if you compare gw2 to the predatory kitten that currently plagues the industry, gw2 looks good. But for many of us that was a given and not even worthy of mention, I never understood why idiots played that type of games, they are completly atrocious

But I guess it's true tho, slowly but surely GW2 has been losing its spot in the selected group of good MMOs with wow/ff14/eso, and now the best it can muster is comparing favorably to the bulk of awful, predatory sorry excuses for games that simply exist for hammering their cash shop down people's throat.

Maybe your happy with that, I'm not

Complains about GW2, then compares it to 3 MMOs which all have subscriptions (and the one where the sub is voluntary has been losing ground for a while). Where you trying to prove other people's points?

The most predatory industry standards are not present in western MMORPGs but rather Sport games, cellphone games and some shooters. Please don't mention predatory monetization which plagues the industry if you do not intend to distinguish from those games.

I assume you arent acquainted with NWO or PWE which OP (not me) use in his initial comparison. every single bit I said fits like a glove, they are in no way or shape better than your average mobile scam. if you really think that PC games are any different than mobiles, all I can say is that you really lack experience in the MMO genre, there's a huge world out there and its mostly fileld with asian pay to win crap

P.S: I wish GW2 was a sub MMO

[Cyninja.2954]

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:as titles says, for example in Neverwinter from PWE(pay to win entertainment), if u mistakenly pickup wrong traitlines u will need pay real money to "reset" the status. in these games free theorycraft is a luxury that only rich guys do.

Free change of traits its one big suprises to me when i come to GW2, at first, im even was thinking its was a bug or a unitended feature "im doing something wrong?theyre not charging me to change it?".

Comparing gw2 to freemium piece of kitten games

How low the mighty have fallen.

Yeah, if you compare gw2 to the predatory kitten that currently plagues the industry, gw2 looks good. But for many of us that was a given and not even worthy of mention, I never understood why idiots played that type of games, they are completly atrocious

But I guess it's true tho, slowly but surely GW2 has been losing its spot in the selected group of good MMOs with wow/ff14/eso, and now the best it can muster is comparing favorably to the bulk of awful, predatory sorry excuses for games that simply exist for hammering their cash shop down people's throat.

Maybe your happy with that, I'm not

Complains about GW2, then compares it to 3 MMOs which all have subscriptions (and the one where the sub is voluntary has been losing ground for a while). Where you trying to prove other people's points?

The most predatory industry standards are not present in western MMORPGs but rather Sport games, cellphone games and some shooters. Please don't mention predatory monetization which plagues the industry if you do not intend to distinguish from those games.

I assume you arent acquainted with NWO or PWE which OP (not me) use in his initial comparison. every single bit I said fits like a glove, they are in no way or shape better than your average mobile scam. if you really think that PC games are any different than mobiles, all I can say is that you really lack experience in the MMO genre, there's a huge world out there and its mostly fileld with asian pay to win kitten

P.S: I wish GW2 was a sub MMO

No, I was talking about the mainstream and played MMORPGS, which you decided to mention, which in turn all monetize heavier than GW2 and have subscriptions.

Agreed, if GW2 was sub based, some of these discussions would not be necessary.

[perilisk.1874]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Agreed, if GW2 was sub based, some of these discussions would not be necessary.

Sure, because it would be abandoning its niche of grown gamers with okay access to money and variable access to time, and would be competing in an arena where it is out of its depth, and it would fail as a game. Then these discussions would certainly be unnecessary.

There is a model that works just fine for GW2: paid expansions on a regular basis, supplemented by a non-predatory cash shop with cosmetics and non-essential conveniences.

[Cyninja.2954]

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Agreed, if GW2 was sub based, some of these discussions would not be necessary.

Sure, because it would be abandoning its niche of grown gamers with okay access to money and variable access to time, and would be competing in an arena where it is out of its depth, and it would fail as a game. Then these discussions would certainly be unnecessary.

Grown gamers with access to money are not the issue and not the people who would abandon a move to a subscription model. It's the large part of the player base which is very price sensitive which would get hit first and foremost.

I'd wager most less price sensitive gamers would love to have more content instead of gem store moneitzation and would gladly pay a subscription for that.

@perilisk.1874 said:There is a model that works just fine for GW2: paid expansions on a regular basis, supplemented by a non-predatory cash shop with cosmetics and non-essential conveniences.

Which we have right now last I checked even if some people enjoy complaunikg about every small detail.

[perilisk.1874]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Which we have right now last I checked even if some people enjoy complaunikg about every small detail.

That's weird, I thought the complete lack of plans for an expansion and the ability to provide "expansion-level" features through living world were big points of contention recently. Especially now that the implementation of build templates seems to indicate that "provide expansion-level features through living world" means selling those expansion-level features bit by bit so that the total price tag is an order of magnitude higher.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:The game was also subscritpion based and later optional subscription based with again heavy drawbacks if you didn't subscribe with payed expansions. GW2 is no where near thatBut it's getting closer and closer. In fact, the current template monetization is something i'd fully expect from one of those "optional subscription" games. And i wouldn't be surprised if we heard next that an optional subscription is in the works, and the full template functionality will be open (for "free") to subscribers. I mean, i wouldn't expect that (as far as i know no game actually succesfully migrated from f2p/b2p to "optional" subscription system, if a transition happened it always came from the other direction), but i definitely would't be surprised.

• people have been begging for years for build tempaltes, even telling Arenanet they would be willing to pay for them. Where is the customer honesty here?Find the people that actually said that, and ask them.

• you are assuming as to how many players are affected "negatively", for the vast majority this will be a direct upgrade since the vast majority of players does not use arc build temaplatesFor those players it won't be an upgrade, because they will still continue to use their only build. Nothing will change for them. Come on, you know it as well as i do.

• the only alternative currently is a 3rd party addon which is tolerated by Arenanet with a clear stipulation: once the official build templates release, it has to be discontinuedIndeed, it is a shame, since it is still superior.

I do, hence why I mentioned I would love for a subscription model so part of the art team can start working on in game assets. You are literally agreeing with what I said:Heavier monetization leads to more content.Ironically, subscription systems aren't "heavier monetization". Well, not unless we're talking about "optional" subscriptions, because those almost uniformly are really bad.It's just a different business sustem that leads to different design choices.Basically, gemshop-based games incentivize their developers to introduce content that influences people to make gemshop purchases. That often leads to releasing contant that is intentionally crippled without said gemshop purchases.Subscription business on the other hand mainly incentivizes developers to making content that keep people playing. In many games this degenerates into releasing what is basically an extended, continuous grind.In both cases, being too greedy (going for minumum effort in subscription model, or trying to rip off as much as possible in gemshp one) will eventually kill the game. It will not lead to more content.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Complains about GW2, then compares it to 3 MMOs which all have subscriptions (and the one where the sub is voluntary has been losing ground for a while). Where you trying to prove other people's points?Notice, how you could have compared GW2 to those games few years ago. Now you no longer can.

@perilisk.1874 said:There is a model that works just fine for GW2: paid expansions on a regular basis, supplemented by a non-predatory cash shop with cosmetics and non-essential conveniences.Too bad they gave up on that model.

[Cyninja.2954]

@perilisk.1874 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Which we have right now last I checked even if some people enjoy complaunikg about every small detail.

That's weird, I thought the complete lack of plans for an expansion and the ability to provide "expansion-level" features through living world were big points of contention recently. Especially now that the implementation of build templates seems to indicate that "provide expansion-level features through living world" means selling those expansion-level features bit by bit so that the total price tag is an order of magnitude higher.

No expansions was announced more than 6 months early and while that is no idication that an expansion is being designed or worked on, it's also no evidence to the contrary.

If the monetization becomes more desperate, then obviously the money is needed to fund something. Given the alternative to that is the game closing down, I'm happy with monetization I can live with. If it gets to much for me, I will simply let my wallet speak and stop supporting the game. A choice I have repeatedly advised people on doing.

As far as Living World Content, last I checked the PROLOGUE was received quite well. Not sure how this will continue, but so far, the content is of high quality.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I do, hence why I mentioned I would love for a subscription model so part of the art team can start working on in game assets. You are literally agreeing with what I said:Heavier monetization leads to more content.Ironically, subscription systems

aren't

"heavier monetization". Well, not unless we're talking about "optional" subscriptions, because those almost uniformly are really bad.

They do if viewed from a per player perspective since not paying the subscriptions automatically locks a player out of access. Given a big part of this player base gets away with 0 payment or monetary spending, that is in fact infinately more monetization. That is without counting the cash shop items which are present in EVERY game today, even the ones with subscription (and often at a higher price than in GW2).

@Astralporing.1957 said:It's just a different business sustem that leads to different design choices.Basically, gemshop-based games incentivize their developers to introduce content that influences people to make gemshop purchases. That often leads to releasing contant that is intentionally crippled without said gemshop purchases.Subscription business on the other hand mainly incentivizes developers to making content that keep people playing. In many games this degenerates into releasing what is basically an extended, continuous grind.In both cases, being too greedy (going for minumum effort in subscription model, or trying to rip off as much as possible in gemshp one) will eventually kill the game. It will not lead to more content.

Exactly, if we had a subscription system, certain incentives and requirements from the developers would be different.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Complains about GW2, then compares it to 3 MMOs which all have subscriptions (and the one where the sub is voluntary has been losing ground for a while). Where you trying to prove other people's points?Notice, how you

could

have compared GW2 to those games few years ago. Now you no longer can.

I've NEVER compared GW2 to any subscription based game. Not ever, not even during Living World Season 1. Anyone who says they did is lying or willfully oblivious of the huge content draughts which have hit this game periodically (pre HoT, pre PoF, post PoF, etc.)

[Maikimaik.1974]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:

You can literally change your character's entire class at any time in FF14

OMG you can do it LITERALLY? Holy kitten, I mean imagine it was just figuratively. Don't overuse this kitten word and don't use it wrong like 99% of the cases. I can't see this kitten word anymore.

This is not how language works, but let's stay on topic please.

[Substance E.4852]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:

@Substance E.4852 said:

You can literally change your character's entire class at any time in FF14

OMG you can do it LITERALLY? Holy kitten, I mean imagine it was just figuratively. Don't overuse this kitten word and don't use it wrong like 99% of the cases. I can't see this kitten word anymore.

Sir, please calm down

[Substance E.4852]

@Firebeard.1746 said:And yes, opting to pay is better than not, i was spending more than a sub fees' worth on cash shop in eso, which is why i was so angry about craft bags. Right now, i'm paying 20 a month at anet. I haven't even decided what i'm spending it on yet, but at least i get to choose instead of having what I get forced on me.

I fail to see how your inability to control your personal spending is a valid criticism of a system

[zealex.9410]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

Or as full as ff14, eso or wow.

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's moments like these where I wish the game went full on subscription mode. Get rid of part of the entitled no revenue generating player base, reduce and move staff from gemstore skins to ingame skins. A win-win for any player who spends around a typical subscription worth of money per month on the game.

So that it's as empty as lotro?

Did I mention lotro? Currenty top tier western MMORPGs which see play next to GW2

• WoW
• FF14
• ESO
• BDO
• SWToR
• Eve Online

All of which demand a far higher monthly monatery investment than GW2, either in form of a mandatory subscription or via "optional" subscriptions to reduce penalties (with premium currency shops without the ability to exhange ingame currency for premium currency).

But don't take my word for it. Please leave GW2 and try out some other MMORPGs. If you are happier there, win for you. If not you'll be back and have some more sympathy for how much stuff here is actually free.

You can exchange gold for battlenet balance in the case of wow tho.

Also how much stuff is free depends on what type of player are you, if you are a regular who logs in once a week sure, if you are a new player just starting out you basically have a pretty big pay wall to get all the content in the game, far bigger than you'd find in eso, wow or ff14.