Holographic shockwave range nerf is too much for WvW

[Blackfish.7349]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 I understand the reason for this nerf if I look at how holos dealt in PvP and the capabilities of this skill when fighting a cap with similar radius. The matter here is that WvW is a totally different playstyle and everything is bigger, all distances and fighting spaces are quite large. The 300 range nerf in WvW, together with the long animation to execute this skill makes it extremely easy to avoid now. In WvW you don't have to fight for defending cap areas constantly (structures and camp cap areas ok, but this happens from time to time and cap areas are larger in WvW), so sacrificing distance for security is a good tradeoff in WvW. I have the opinion that a range nerf was necessary for PvP, but the same range leaves the skill really behind in WvW. I suggest you split skill ranges between PvP and WvW. Leave WvW range as it was and keep the reduced distance for PvP.

Also, now the range is so low that, graphically, the skill does not show a shockwave anymore, it just shows a holo pond with no waves...quite disappointing (the previous effect with the waves was visually spectacular). If you keep the skill nerfed like this you should consider change its name to holographic smash or something like that.

[Josif.2015]

You can't have it all. Nobody liked getting CCed by a holosmith who clicks a single button to CC 5 enemies around them and above terrain in a 600 radius. Not even the Big Ol' Bomb from the bomb kit can't do that and it only has a 300 explosion radius and it's 10 times easier to dodge than holographic shockwave because of the 3 second fuse time. The nerf is justified since holosmith is meant to be a glass cannon melee specialization that is easier to play compared to core engineer, yet is nowhere near as vulnerable as a glass cannon nor does it have near as much risk involved in playing it. I say start practicing using holographic shockwave wisely when you're within melee range instead of mindlessly using it at a close enough range thinking that you'll CC everyone.

[Blackfish.7349]

@"Hoodie.1045" said:start practicing using holographic shockwave wisely when you're within melee range instead of mindlessly using it at a close enough range thinking that you'll CC everyone.

Its incredible here how anonymous people think they are pro and others play mindlessly...mate, keep your advices for yourself or your close friends, or at least, give them when people ask for it. My post is a suggestion for developers, you can give your opinion if you like, but please keep your pro advices stored and try to be constructive with the skill definition, not with other players "supposed" playstyle.

[Dawdler.8521]

So low? So low???

SO LOW?!?!?!?

Even at 300 range its just about par with LARGE Aoes such as meteor shower or barrage.

[Blackfish.7349]

@Dawdler.8521 said:So low? So low???

SO LOW?!?!?!?

Even at 300 range its just about par with LARGE Aoes such as meteor shower or barrage.

Both skills you mention are ranged skills, not melee, they cannot be compared. You can cast a barrage or a meteor shower at 1500 range from a safe position, 0 risk. Also both skill have 360 aoe, bigger areas of effect from 1500 range...so yes, I think 300 range for a melee and slow-casting-easy-to-avoid skill is really low to have any impact in large WvW scenarios.

[bluberblasen.9684]

Hi Bro,Holo is STILL over tuned.

1 ) broken healing from healing tower ( area heal, leap heal, area heal ) + regeneration + heat therapy2) broken long time of quickness.3 ) broken long time of protection4 ) too much auto might gain5 ) too much damage ( comes from ALL holo mode skills especially autoattack )6 ) can choose between melee AND range attack7 ) too much CC8) too much stability ( and again its auto stability )9 ) stealth ( can reset the fight over and over and over ) and 10 ) with ONLY one slot skill stealth AND invulnerability...11) can go full zerker / marouder because of medium life and armor.12 ) class with second most auto proccs / jail free cards apart from warrior ( okey to be fair, this comes not from holo traits :D )

[Dawdler.8521]

@Blackfish.7349 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So low?

So low

???

SO LOW?!?!?!?

Even at 300 range its just about par with

LARGE

Aoes such as meteor shower or barrage.

Both skills you mention are ranged skills, not melee, they cannot be compared. You can cast a barrage or a meteor shower at 1500 range from a safe position, 0 risk. Also both skill have 360 aoe, bigger areas of effect from 1500 range...so yes, I think 300 range for a melee and slow-casting-easy-to-avoid skill is really low to have any impact in large WvW scenarios.Ok then what pbaoe does any class have thats larger than 300, does damage and knocks people down so we can compare just how low that radius is?

Just curius.

The blast gyro untraited is 240 and traited 360 so that we already know is similar. But it also have nearly twice the cooldown and 3s delay.

The thumper turret has 240 radius.

Edit: big ol bomb is 300 radius too, forgot that. Same cd as blast gyro.

I dont know all the stuns on other classes.

[Ruufio.1496]

You're objectively just wrong. The radius was ridiculous before.

[Vagrant.7206]

I think the radius might have been better at 400, but it was absurdly large before. It would even hit people the animation donut didn't touch.

[Infusion.7149]

Most people don't run holo in a group environment (projectile hate renders the rifle much less useful , sword holo doesn't have the utility of scrapper hammer) , it's mostly for roaming and trolling. The reason why the range is standardized as much as possible between Wvw and PvP is to minimize skill splitting.

To put it into perspective , spellbreaker's break enchantments is 360 radius & so is Hunter's ward (DH longbow 5) and Barrage (ranger Longbow 5) , necro wells and mesmer chaos storm are 240 radius , static field/eruption on ele staff are 300 and so are necro marks' blast radius.

[Emberheart.8426]

Holographic shockwave can stay at 600 radius as long as churning earth is increased to 1200 radius. You think 3/4ths of a second as a long cast time to stay rooted for, but churning earth has a 2 second cast time while staying still and you can't get self-quickness as ele. This is a pbAoE skill just like holographic shockwave and has a radius of 360. This is not the only example why holographic shockwave was ridiculous. There are many pbAoE skills that had nowhere near the radius.

@Blackfish.7349 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:So low?

So low

???

SO LOW?!?!?!?

Even at 300 range its just about par with

LARGE

Aoes such as meteor shower or barrage.

Both skills you mention are ranged skills, not melee, they cannot be compared. You can cast a barrage or a meteor shower at 1500 range from a safe position, 0 risk. Also both skill have 360 aoe, bigger areas of effect from 1500 range...so yes, I think 300 range for a melee and slow-casting-easy-to-avoid skill is really low to have any impact in large WvW scenarios.

Just so you know, meteor shower is a 3.5 second cast that keeps you rooted. It makes the cast time of your holographic shockwave look instant.

[Blackfish.7349]

@Ganathar.4956 said:Holographic shockwave can stay at 600 radius as long as churning earth is increased to 1200 radius. You think 3/4ths of a second as a long cast time to stay rooted for, but churning earth has a 2 second cast time while staying still and you can't get self-quickness as ele. This is a pbAoE skill just like holographic shockwave and has a radius of 360. This is not the only example why holographic shockwave was ridiculous. There are many pbAoE skills that had nowhere near the radius.

Good eles will flash u at the end of the churning cast so they get on top of you, I mean, you can blink while you cast. Holos can't, and I dont pretend they could. Most of you guys are comparing different skills of different classes with the incorrect argument that nobody else has what holographic shockwave has. All classes are different, and that is the nice thing of it. You build your class and fight against other classes with different things. You say holo does not deserve a 600 range aoe stun because nobody else has it. Well, other classes and specs have other things. If an ele wants to play roaming he/she will not use meteor shower in a havoc situation, he will die instantly if she/he tries to. Meteor showers are used by eles protected, by the zerg or by the structure. I know some of you guys are annoyed by this skill but I repeat you that most of the nerfs are done taking into account PvP data, and this one has been done to reduce holo dominance in PvP meta. WvW is very different, people in WvW tend to run, to escape, and the distances in combat are large. I can agree with some of you that 600 is quite big range, but 300 is very very low range for a skill that has low damage (tell me the damage you get if a good ele puts a churning on top of you and then look at the damage of the shockwave) and a static long casting time and is easy to avoid with a roll.

[Strider.7849]

@Blackfish.7349 said:

@"Ganathar.4956" said:Holographic shockwave can stay at 600 radius as long as churning earth is increased to 1200 radius. You think 3/4ths of a second as a long cast time to stay rooted for, but churning earth has a 2 second cast time while staying still and you can't get self-quickness as ele. This is a pbAoE skill just like holographic shockwave and has a radius of 360. This is not the only example why holographic shockwave was ridiculous. There are many pbAoE skills that had nowhere near the radius.

Good eles will flash u at the end of the churning cast so they get on top of you, I mean, you can blink while you cast. Holos can't, and I dont pretend they could. Most of you guys are comparing different skills of different classes with the incorrect argument that nobody else has what holographic shockwave has. All classes are different, and that is the nice thing of it. You build your class and fight against other classes with different things. You say holo does not deserve a 600 range aoe stun because nobody else has it. Well, other classes and specs have other things. If an ele wants to play roaming he/she will not use meteor shower in a havoc situation, he will die instantly if she/he tries to. Meteor showers are used by eles protected, by the zerg or by the structure. I know some of you guys are annoyed by this skill but I repeat you that most of the nerfs are done taking into account PvP data, and this one has been done to reduce holo dominance in PvP meta. WvW is very different, people in WvW tend to run, to escape, and the distances in combat are large. I can agree with some of you that 600 is quite big range, but 300 is very very low range for a skill that has low damage (tell me the damage you get if a good ele puts a churning on top of you and then look at the damage of the shockwave) and a static long casting time and is easy to avoid with a roll.

It's already been touched upon in: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89019/engineer-changes#latest

While I agree with you on the holographic shockwave and it's necessity in environments like WvW, most people disagree with us due to it's interaction with quickness. To be honest, after I saw the overwhelming determination to completely kill holo, I think it's best we focus towards killing it's sustain - then people will realize that without it's ability to control group fights, bring CC support that differs from other abilities, and counter bullshit builds like constantly stealthing deadeyes or extreme bunker condi builds, that it doesn't really have a place. I'm saying this specifically after it gets its sustain toned down siginifcantly, cooldowns increased/access to forge. I feel that Anet should have significantly toned down the sustain first - reducing the shockwave to 400-450, and reduced the 1 skill in forge with the 3 skill, adjusting heat therapy - THEN balance it. With how they nerfed shockwave first and left it's sustain, the result will ultimately be turning holo into a single target core-warrior like elite spec.

[Blackfish.7349]

@Strider.7849 said:While I agree with you on the holographic shockwave and it's necessity in environments like WvW, most people disagree with us due to it's interaction with quickness. To be honest, after I saw the overwhelming determination to completely kill holo, I think it's best we focus towards killing it's sustain - then people will realize that without it's ability to control group fights, bring CC support that differs from other abilities, and counter kitten builds like constantly stealthing deadeyes or extreme bunker condi builds, that it doesn't really have a place. I'm saying this specifically after it gets its sustain toned down siginifcantly, cooldowns increased/access to forge. I feel that Anet should have significantly toned down the sustain first - reducing the shockwave to 400-450, and reduced the 1 skill in forge with the 3 skill, adjusting heat therapy - THEN balance it. With how they nerfed shockwave first and left it's sustain, the result will ultimately be turning holo into a single target core-warrior like elite spec.

I agree with you that the real problem with holo is the sustain (weaver sustain, warrior sustain, and other specific builds have enormous sustain in this game compared to others). I did not want to mention it because nerfing damage and nerfing sustain will burn holo to the ground and leave it useless, but maybe, as you suggest, destroy a spec is the only way to rebuild it.

[Blackfish.7349]

@Infusion.7149 said:Most people don't run holo in a group environment (projectile hate renders the rifle much less useful , sword holo doesn't have the utility of scrapper hammer) , it's mostly for roaming and trolling.

So roaming (1-5 ppl) or havoc (around 10), is not group environment for you? Holo used for trolling? Please, don't talk with so disrespect about a class that you obviously don't know. ALL classes and specs in this game can be used for trolling, because trolling does not depend on the class or spec, depends on the player, if he or she is a troll. Please use accurate words when you talk to the community, and please, show some respect to holos here.

[Infusion.7149]

5 people is technically a party not a squad. It is a fact that projectile hate is high in group settings (i.e. 11-20 or above with scrappers and firebrands) and low utility on sword mainhand, which is why rangers and rifle warriors are out of favor despite soulbeast being a common roamer (due to rapidfire dismounts). Also it seems you just want an echo chamber (despite many posts to the contrary) and are unwilling to accept that one skill's range doesn't make a class. If ONE minor skill change breaks your entire gameplay then there's clearly something wrong with your party composition.

Trolling = using an emergency waypoint when inner walls are down and they're camping the WP, defending a camp vs roamers or camping it, hitting people that are off tag or on the way to tag/objectives, etc.

Also Irenio is the main man for balance as he's System Teams Lead, you're pinging the person mainly responsible for competitive game modes.

You should follow your own advice since I've been playing engineer since launch. Your response thus far to peoples' rebuttals is "no you're wrong and don't know engineer".

@"Blackfish.7349" said:

Its incredible here how anonymous people think they are pro and others play mindlessly...mate, keep your advices for yourself or your close friends, or at least, give them when people ask for it. My post is a suggestion for developers, you can give your opinion if you like, but please keep your pro advices stored and try to be constructive with the skill definition, not with other players "supposed" playstyle.

P.S. Outside of the game REAL engineers need to rationalize and check their work and not just shoot down any differing opinion with "you're wrong".

[Exalted Quality.8534]

450 range would have been fair. Holos suffer from noobs that don’t know how to dodge super obvious animations and then cry on the forum.

[phirefox.2568]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Ok then what pbaoe does any class have thats larger than 300, does damage and knocks people down so we can compare just how low that radius is?

Warriors Earthshaker is somewhat similar, at least.

• It stuns foes for 1|1.5|2 seconds, depending on the adrenaline level. Since Level 1 is trivial to archive for a Warrior, it's at least as effective as HSWave in that department
• the damage modifier is (1.0), slightly above that of HSWave (0.96). Basically no difference
• Both are blast finishers
• Earthshaker got a 8 second cooldown. In normal combat situations (and especially if the warrior is fighting a minion user or mesmer) a warrior should be able to reach at least level 1 adrenaline during the 8 second cooldown, enabling frequent use. Whether the player actually does it, or switches weapons instead, is another question of course, but it beats HSWave in the cooldown department.
• Casting time is ¾, just like HSWave
• The radius is "just" 240, but unlike the nerfed HSWave it comes with a 600 range, aimable gapcloser over the ¾ seconds cast. If your aim is hitting a group of players, the inbuilt gapcloser makes it superior to it's nerfed engineer pendant - the latter would force you to "walk up" to the groups center of mass, and then activate a ¾ second ability. Against single targets the gapcloser increases it's range to a maximum of 720, which beats even the old HSWave.
• Unlike HSWave, the Knockdown effect is instant, and not timed to match a wave animation, meaning HSWave gives opponents at the edge additional time to react by dodging after the cast.

Really, the only situation in which Earthshaker is less effective than the nerfed HSWave is given, if a group of foes are distributed evenly (at least some foes more than 120 units away from the group's center-of-mass) in the 240-300 range ring area around the player. Then there is Rupturing Smash, Earthshakers primal cousin. It replaces the originals Stun with Immobilize (2s) and Daze (1s), but increases the damage by 50% (1.5) and the Radius to 360 (!) units, making it even stronger than the nerfed form of HSWave.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for nerfing that skill (hell, I left the game for 3 years because all the cheese introduced by a-net turned dueling and roaming into "join the cheese train or die"), but I would have done it differently:

• Either separate the skills into PvE, WvW and PvP (leave it as is in PvE, since it doesn't really bother anyone over there), with ranges fitted to each mode (maybe keep it at 600 in PvE, put it to something between 300 to 400 in WvW, and 300 - or even less than that - in PvP)
• Or make use of the Wave-Attack mechanics that a-net already possesses for Bosses - the ones allowing players to jump over the attacks in order to avoid their effects. I would have defined a threshold for the wave (e.g. 300 units) up to which it may not be avoided by jumping, leaving the rest of it's range dodge-able by jumping. It would dampen the nerf, allow for easy counterplay against mindless usage on range, and - as a side effect - leave the spell untouched for PvE (since mobs don't jump, aside from cosmetic animations).

[coro.3176]

@Exalted Quality.8534 said:450 range would have been fair. Holos suffer from noobs that don’t know how to dodge super obvious animations and then cry on the forum.

The problem wasn't that people didn't know how to dodge it, it's that it was a must-dodge skill on a very short cooldown on a spec with an abundance of other must-dodge abilities also on short cooldowns. Shortening the range allows movement as counterplay, which frees up dodges for other high impact skills (eg. corona burst to deny stability).

[Dawdler.8521]

@"phirefox.2568" said:

• The radius is "just" 240, but unlike the nerfed HSWave it comes with a 600 range, aimable gapcloser over the ¾ seconds cast. If your aim is hitting a group of players, the inbuilt gapcloser makes it superior to it's nerfed engineer pendant - the latter would force you to "walk up" to the groups center of mass, and then activate a ¾ second ability. Against single targets the gapcloser increases it's range to a maximum of 720, which beats even the old HSWave.Yeah... Its not like the holo got anything similar.

Oh wait, holo leap, 600 range on 2s cd.

In addtion to a 600 radius knockback.

Again, your numbers only further show the fact of why it was insane.

[phirefox.2568]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Yeah... Its not like the holo got anything similar.

Oh wait, holo leap, 600 range on 2s cd.

In addtion to a 600 radius knockback.As far as I understood, the post you were answering complained about the nerfed HSWave "300r being too low", thus I interpreted your answer as you looking for an pbaoe example of anything higher or at least similar - obviously there wouldn't be any other knockdown with more than 300r - to the nerfed variant, which is what Earthshaker is. Of course you can take HL (which pretty overpowered in it's current form) into consideration to increase the range, which puts the two skills closer to another in terms of maximum range: 600+240=840 for Earthshaker vs. 480+300=780 for HL+HSV. If HL's Tooltip was actually correct, the Engineer would beat the Warrior by 60units, but the actual range of HL is pretty much the same as the radius of Healing turret (Flame Blast reaches further, for reference), while Earthshaker's range is the same as each of the supposedly 600-ranged banners (tested both again on a flat surface, just to be sure if I remembered that right). In terms of damage, HL+HSV would blow Earthshaker out of the water against a single target due to HL's stupidly high 1.6er modifier, although that doesn't mean much if you aim at empty space between several foes. All in All, Earthshaker/HL+HSV are pretty similar in strength - the former may be spammed almost two times as often, while the latter gives a slight edge in covered Area and single target damage. To be fair though, a Warrior could lead Earthshaker with another Gapcloser (e.g. Greatsword or Sword) as well.

Again, your numbers only further show the fact of why it was insane.That's probably because a multi-target-force-to-dodge knockdown with a 600u radius is insane :p

[ParadoX.3124]

People now have so much stability and stun break that this nerf was really not necessary.This skill now is useless except if you wanna have more heat faster or if you need to combo into an area.

[ParadoX.3124]

Btw do we talk about rev hammer KD + damage + huge radius from miles away

[Dawdler.8521]

@ParadoX.3124 said:Btw do we talk about rev hammer KD + damage + huge radius from miles awayYes lets do talk.

Drop the hammer had 1s longer activation time and shorter radius at 240 so...

Nerf holo shockwave even more? Or what are we talking about?

[ParadoX.3124]

No I mean, this skill lost its main purpose : KD multiple targets around you.They should even replace it by something else or allow us to move when using it like they've done in the past on shield 4