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Since i work in that part of the industry and i know how the sausage is made, some design choices have me worried. Usually i ignore them but after the lay offs things got little bit more pushy with the "Macro" transactions and the design of some content like the Skyscale unlock(bland, boring and unimaginative for the most part like most mobile game practices) and now with build templates (looks like copy of a mobile game feature the only part missing is charging for changing builds, don't get any fucking ideas from that). I don't think GW2 could survive a mobile game flop for pushing too hard. In the mobile space you can always reskin, recycle and reuse a flop into something "new" and it can be churned out quicker, not so much in the PC. Even in the mobile space you don't push way too hard on your crown jewel game that is in the public eye.Now that MO is out and Chris Corry will oversee NCSOFT west and from what i read his experience is in the mobile space from Kabam, that puts some doubt in the future of the game.

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Chris Corry is not a new name at NCSoft West, he's been there a while as what ever his title was...and I highly doubt he's doing anything different with ArenaNet then he did before. Mike Z is the Creative Director and what ever additional responsibilities they give him, and technically, since ArenaNet is a wholly owned subsidiary of NCSoft they don't really need their own CEO, a President...maybe, but definitely a V.P reporting directly to whomever is in charge of NCSoft West(which isn't Chris, it's that lady but I'm to lazy to look up her name from when they announced the layoffs).

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And yet i can smell that smelly smell of mobile game design. Now that i think about it the khan ur helmets seem like something that is done where i work to get more people to shell out cash for potentially worthless things that are artificially hard to get. My concern here is that this is way too obvious and lazy implementation and if people don't poke and prod about it, the design goal post will be moved little by little in a worse direction with the excuse that is "how it was working from before".

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@"Vancho.8750" said:And yet i can smell that smelly smell of mobile game design. Now that i think about it the khan ur helmets seem like something that is done where i work to get more people to shell out cash for potentially worthless things that are artificially hard to get. My concern here is that this is way too obvious and lazy implementation and if people don't poke and prod about it, the design goal post will be moved little by little in a worse direction with the excuse that is "how it was working from before".

The Khan-Ur helmets aren't sold on the gem store though. If it were a cash grab, they'd be sold there directly instead of requiring gem-gold transactions, which aren't going to get as many bites.

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Since taking a 4 year break its insane how much mobile style gaming has been added to this, it feels terrible and not enjoyable at all.. I guess others don't notice because they have been here the whole time to get used to it.. But wow it feels tacked on and nothing like other mmo's i've played..

Money is one thing ruining game flow to get money and to artificially gate customers is another thing entirely.

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@"Dante.1508" said:Since taking a 4 year break its insane how much mobile style gaming has been added to this, it feels terrible and not enjoyable at all.. I guess others don't notice because they have been here the whole time to get used to it.. But wow it feels tacked on and nothing like other mmo's i've played..

Money is one thing ruining game flow to get money is another thing entirely.

"added"

Its always been there, as its always been the DNA of F2P cash shop models. The difference is the level of aggressiveness across the whole industry to back port older designs to fit into the new "live service" paradigm that is the worst of all worlds. GW2 was kind of paradoxical at first, since the Gem store had very little value in the beginning.... but the players have "spoken with their wallets", and shown impulsive behavior is the only way to coax us into spending significant money on anything. Theres no small amount of irony in that Cosmetic upgrades (being the most benign option to offer for cash) just absolutely exploded in light of the current culture's integration of status symbols into the virtual space; where in times past there was a layer of isolation that most games tended to enjoy.

But you're wrong about Vets not noticing the state of things. GW2 was ahead of the curve when it came to cosmetics. And keep in mind, even pre-wardrobe, there was major emphasis on being able to fine tune aesthetics, and had beaten other fashion games (such as BDO and Warframe) to the punch by a couple of years. If anything, GW2 avoided the temptations until the Elemental Sword showed them how wrong they were...... proving we'll pay massively over the odds for something that is even remotely interesting looking. The fact that they haven't gone all-in yet kind of baffles me. But then looking at how they handle the rest of the game, I wonder if their production problems also extend into their monetization attempts. A bit of poetic justice given the game's under-tapped potential in so many areas.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when marketing stuff works, we're not supposed to be aware of it. Looking at Fortnite, that is the Status Quo publishers are looking for now. A pay-into system that has no objective value, so it can exploit every weak point subjectivity allows for, while avoiding a self-considered "objective" legal system. Its like the Variable Pricing thing Amazon has toying with for years, but has no method of comparison that allows it to be caught.

So I disagree that everything is tacked on. If anything, its proper co-existence rather then deep integration seen everywhere else. But its that layer of separation that makes the aggressiveness a lot more transparent. Outfits in BDO have the same problem, since no in-game options makes it stand out more. But what gave BDO the leeway it has, comes mostly from its Character Creator; something good enough to get you invested initially, and offers enough catharsis until you're too attached to your character to give it up easily. Yet Fortnite hides what it does by integrating all the cosmetics into its reward system, the same way Overwatch did (and is directly modeled after). Fortnite is also more devious in that your attachment is not grounded to anything static..... the perfect platform to churn seasonal fashions, with the least possibility of any given element causing a conflict. Even Overwatch couldn't get that far, since the distinct character designs creates a hierarchy of Heroes players will want to dress up, and certain designs are wildly more popular then others. D.Va is rarely top tier play-wise, but runs close second to Mercy in dress up value.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

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@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"Dante.1508" said:Since taking a 4 year break its insane how much mobile style gaming has been added to this, it feels terrible and not enjoyable at all.. I guess others don't notice because they have been here the whole time to get used to it.. But wow it feels tacked on and nothing like other mmo's i've played..

Money is one thing ruining game flow to get money is another thing entirely.

"added"

Its always been there, as its always been the DNA of F2P cash shop models. The difference is the level of aggressiveness across the whole industry to back port older designs to fit into the new "live service" paradigm that is the worst of all worlds. GW2 was kind of paradoxical at first, since the Gem store had very little value in the beginning.... but the players have "spoken with their wallets", and shown impulsive behavior is the only way to coax us into spending significant money on anything. Theres no small amount of irony in that Cosmetic upgrades (being the most benign option to offer for cash) just absolutely exploded in light of the current culture's integration of status symbols into the virtual space; where in times past there was a layer of isolation that most games tended to enjoy.

But you're wrong about Vets not noticing the state of things. GW2 was ahead of the curve when it came to cosmetics. And keep in mind, even pre-wardrobe, there was major emphasis on being able to fine tune aesthetics, and had beaten other fashion games (such as BDO and Warframe) to the punch by a couple of years. If anything, GW2 avoided the temptations until the Elemental Sword showed them how wrong they were...... proving we'll pay massively over the odds for something that is even remotely interesting looking. The fact that they haven't gone all-in yet kind of baffles me. But then looking at how they handle the rest of the game, I wonder if their production problems also extend into their monetization attempts. A bit of poetic justice given the game's under-tapped potential in so many areas.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when marketing stuff works, we're not supposed to be aware of it. Looking at Fortnite, that is the Status Quo publishers are looking for now. A pay-into system that has no objective value, so it can exploit every weak point subjectivity allows for, while avoiding a self-considered "objective" legal system. Its like the Variable Pricing thing Amazon has toying with for years, but has no method of comparison that allows it to be caught.

So I disagree that everything is tacked on. If anything, its proper co-existence rather then deep integration seen everywhere else. But its that layer of separation that makes the aggressiveness a lot more transparent. Outfits in BDO have the same problem, since no in-game options makes it stand out more. But what gave BDO the leeway it has, comes mostly from its Character Creator; something good enough to get you invested initially, and offers enough catharsis until you're too attached to your character to give it up easily. Yet Fortnite hides what it does by integrating all the cosmetics into its reward system, the same way Overwatch did (and is directly modeled after). Fortnite is also more devious in that your attachment is not grounded to anything static..... the perfect platform to churn seasonal fashions, with the least possibility of any given element causing a conflict. Even Overwatch couldn't get that far, since the distinct character designs creates a hierarchy of Heroes players will want to dress up, and certain designs are wildly more popular then others. D.Va is rarely top tier play-wise, but runs close second to Mercy in dress up value.

Its gotten far worse in 4 years.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

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@Vancho.8750 said:the design of some content like the Skyscale unlock(bland, boring and unimaginative for the most part like most mobile game practices)To me, the skyscale unlock was one of the most fun content this game has offered in ages. You actually got to play the game, explore, solve clues, and go all over the place, doing all kinds of different activities (including playing a variety of content on all of the season's maps).

There may be bland, boring, and unimaginative content in this game, but the Skyscale quest certainly isn't it.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

They could always go back to how their monetary practices were in 2006-2012, when they had an online shop in GW1, yet all they sold was a handful of storage upgrades, character slots, name/appearance changes, about 10 costumes ("outfits" by GW2 standards) and the gameplay content releases.

Zero lootboxes. Zero biweekly gemstore products. Sure, no bi/trimonthly temporarily-free DLCs (excluding Beyond) but instead annual expansion-level releases. They never had a money issue then. Granted they were about a hundred employees smaller back then too, but ~100 employees don't require the predatory tactics of the BLCs or the majority of cosmetics brought by microtransactions.

I used to not mind the gemstore, but the more time goes on, the more I see that it was never a needful thing.

And don't both with that "exchanging gold for gems" stuff - the exchange rate is ludicrous, and it was no doubt intended to be so to promote purchases with money instead.

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@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:Here is a novel idea to make money. Make expansions....Not triple dip monetizing a system many games gives for free.

It costs money to make expansions, or didn’t you know that?

What games give things for free? Gimme some examples of this magical free game development?

Edit- And you probably can’t explain what you mean by “triple dip”... And what does Anet force players to buy to play gw2?

Edit 2- Oh wait, "triple dip" like mandatory box/dl fee PLUS mandatory monthly access/play fee PLUS mandatory gem store items so you can progress in the game and be competitive with other players?

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@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?The companies get payed, the one that crafts it gets fuck all. The "Macro" transactions are not there to put food on the table they are there to pay the suits. My issue is that i saw how it goes, something nice over time got more and more about making as much money as it can and not about enjoyable entertainment which is supposed to be the main thing in a game.And don't pull that bullshit on me about stuff for "free" they are making money, but not the money that NCSOFT wants which will never be achievable cause the goal post is constantly moving. The suits do not care about the quality of the game, they care about the numbers and if the numbers drop from before they jump shit to vulture away something else.And what has me worried the most is that at some point Arenanet will push too hard and it will have the opposite effect and they will lose money, and since NCSOFT has the habit of cutting studios down and then the GW servers will poof out of existence.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?The companies get payed, the one that crafts it gets kitten all. The "Macro" transactions are not there to put food on the table they are there to pay the suits. My issue is that i saw how it goes, something nice over time got more and more about making as much money as it can and not about enjoyable entertainment which is supposed to be the main thing in a game.And don't pull that kitten on me about stuff for "free" they are making money, but not the money that NCSOFT wants which will never be achievable cause the goal post is constantly moving. The suits do not care about the quality of the game, they care about the numbers and if the numbers drop from before they jump kitten to vulture away something else.And what has me worried the most is that at some point Arenanet will push too hard and it will have the opposite effect and they will lose money, and since NCSOFT has the habit of cutting studios down and then the GW servers will poof out of existence.

So you don't want anet to make money to keep the lights on for years to come... Gotcha.

Since you are in the "industry", I'm sure you can come up with an amazing list of game monetization options that are better than GW2? Do you want monthly user fees to replace certain gemstore items, so then you can get them for "free" in-game? Let's see how much you understand how a business stays in business?

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?The companies get payed, the one that crafts it gets kitten all. The "Macro" transactions are not there to put food on the table they are there to pay the suits. My issue is that i saw how it goes, something nice over time got more and more about making as much money as it can and not about enjoyable entertainment which is supposed to be the main thing in a game.And don't pull that kitten on me about stuff for "free" they are making money, but not the money that NCSOFT wants which will never be achievable cause the goal post is constantly moving. The suits do not care about the quality of the game, they care about the numbers and if the numbers drop from before they jump kitten to vulture away something else.And what has me worried the most is that at some point Arenanet will push too hard and it will have the opposite effect and they will lose money, and since NCSOFT has the habit of cutting studios down and then the GW servers will poof out of existence.

So you don't want anet to make money to keep the lights on for years to come... Gotcha.

Since you are in the "industry", I'm sure you can come up with an amazing list of game monetization options that are better than GW2? Do you want monthly user fees to replace certain gemstore items, so then you can get them for "free" in-game? Let's see how much you understand how a business stays in business?Money made now will not be reinvested in the same project if it is dwindling it will be shifted somewhere else. I understand that is pointless to discuss anything with you ,cause it circling back to the first statement, you are arguing for the sake of it, with nothing to add.
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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?The companies get payed, the one that crafts it gets kitten all. The "Macro" transactions are not there to put food on the table they are there to pay the suits. My issue is that i saw how it goes, something nice over time got more and more about making as much money as it can and not about enjoyable entertainment which is supposed to be the main thing in a game.And don't pull that kitten on me about stuff for "free" they are making money, but not the money that NCSOFT wants which will never be achievable cause the goal post is constantly moving. The suits do not care about the quality of the game, they care about the numbers and if the numbers drop from before they jump kitten to vulture away something else.And what has me worried the most is that at some point Arenanet will push too hard and it will have the opposite effect and they will lose money, and since NCSOFT has the habit of cutting studios down and then the GW servers will poof out of existence.

So you don't want anet to make money to keep the lights on for years to come... Gotcha.

Since you are in the "industry", I'm sure you can come up with an amazing list of game monetization options that are better than GW2? Do you want monthly user fees to replace certain gemstore items, so then you can get them for "free" in-game? Let's see how much you understand how a business stays in business?Money made now will not be reinvested in the same project if it is dwindling it will be shifted somewhere else. I understand that is pointless to discuss anything with you ,cause it circling back to the first statement, you are arguing for the sake of it, with nothing to add.

No, no... You claimed you work in the "industry", so it's your responsibility to show us "common folk" what a better idea is, since you are more knowledgeable. You should easily be able to pop off a list of better mmo monetization models, since this is your "industry".

"Since i work in that part of the industry and i know how the sausage is made"... back it up then.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?The companies get payed, the one that crafts it gets kitten all. The "Macro" transactions are not there to put food on the table they are there to pay the suits. My issue is that i saw how it goes, something nice over time got more and more about making as much money as it can and not about enjoyable entertainment which is supposed to be the main thing in a game.And don't pull that kitten on me about stuff for "free" they are making money, but not the money that NCSOFT wants which will never be achievable cause the goal post is constantly moving. The suits do not care about the quality of the game, they care about the numbers and if the numbers drop from before they jump kitten to vulture away something else.And what has me worried the most is that at some point Arenanet will push too hard and it will have the opposite effect and they will lose money, and since NCSOFT has the habit of cutting studios down and then the GW servers will poof out of existence.

So you don't want anet to make money to keep the lights on for years to come... Gotcha.

Since you are in the "industry", I'm sure you can come up with an amazing list of game monetization options that are better than GW2? Do you want monthly user fees to replace certain gemstore items, so then you can get them for "free" in-game? Let's see how much you understand how a business stays in business?Money made now will not be reinvested in the same project if it is dwindling it will be shifted somewhere else. I understand that is pointless to discuss anything with you ,cause it circling back to the first statement, you are arguing for the sake of it, with nothing to add.

No, no... You claimed you work in the "industry", so it's your responsibility to show us "common" folk" what a better idea is, since you are more knowledgeable. You should easily be able to pop off a list of better mmo monetization models, since this is your "industry".

"Since i work in that part of the industry and i know how the sausage is made"... back it up then.I'm not getting payed for that, but you can check my posts some ideas got implemented, which is nice.You seem to be really pissed that i work for mobile gaming company, all i said is that they are pitching their tent in that area which is not a great idea for large games even large mobile ones.
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Expansion cost money, and make a ton of money, just look at the quarterly reports after a Xpac drops. Notice, something that can be back up by facts and not a straw man. And their employees get paid the same if they are making an Xpac or not.Triple dip means they are selling the equipment template slots, skills template slots, AND skill template bank all in one QoL update that 2/3 could have been stored client side, but they made the design choice to make it server side to monetize it. This makes me very wary about alliances and swiss, I can only assume they are this late is because they haven't found a way to monetize them. And yes I understand they do this with inventory/bank/shared inventory slots, but those have to be stored server side. Those justify the cost because you are buying server space.

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@Shadowmoon.7986 said:all in one QoL update that 2/3 could have been stored client side, but they made the design choice to make it server side to monetize it.Or maybe they've decided to offer a server side storage for those of us that play on different machines? We have several gaming pc in our household for example, and who plays on which machine changes from day to day. Storing the information client-side wouldn't be much of a qol update for me, since I'd have to sync them manually between the clients I play on every time I change something.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

So what you are saying is that you don’t understand how a business works, particularly an online game business.

How do you suppose Anet make money to pay staff, bills, taxes, health benefits and continue to develop the game? Let me guess, by growing money trees?

Do you also think there to be magical coding fairies that create everything overnight while the staff are sleeping?

Edit- You don’t pay a monthly fee to play and you can get gems by exchanging gold so you can get anything off the gemstore... yet you are still complaining about optional stuff being on the gemstore... silly.

By doing what they are doing except the predatory lootbox practices. Oh also invest even a 5th of what they make back into the game in areas that arent lw.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

technically the elite specs are more powerful and better in general than anything in core and guess the only way you can get them?so yes, it's P2W.

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