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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

So what you are saying is that you don’t understand how a business works, particularly an online game business.

How do you suppose Anet make money to pay staff, bills, taxes, health benefits and continue to develop the game? Let me guess, by growing money trees?

Do you also think there to be magical coding fairies that create everything overnight while the staff are sleeping?

Edit- You don’t pay a monthly fee to play and you can get gems by exchanging gold so you can get anything off the gemstore... yet you are still complaining about optional stuff being on the gemstore... silly.

I don't know about the magical coding fairies but I'm pretty sure the actual coders only see a pitiful fraction of those gem store profits.

The same coders who are being laid off because the seemingly satisfactory earnings are not enough to satisfy a shareholder's greed.

The same coders who are getting burnt out working crunch, while execs who haven't played a game their whole life enjoy the fruits of their labor. Check out wage distribution in the gaming industry, particularly AAA studios. The data is really interesting.

That's how an online gaming business works. And if this game had a monthly fee, the store would still be there and just as annoying. No need for delusions.

What I find silly is supporting a business built on anti-consumer practices while being a consumer yourself. And doing so while arguing it's all for the benefit of the poor devs. "Gotta pay the bills". If the arguement was "gotta pay an exec's new yacht", it would be far more legitimate.

So go complain to NCsoft, right?

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

So what you are saying is that you don’t understand how a business works, particularly an online game business.

How do you suppose Anet make money to pay staff, bills, taxes, health benefits and continue to develop the game? Let me guess, by growing money trees?

Do you also think there to be magical coding fairies that create everything overnight while the staff are sleeping?

Edit- You don’t pay a monthly fee to play and you can get gems by exchanging gold so you can get anything off the gemstore... yet you are still complaining about optional stuff being on the gemstore... silly.

I don't know about the magical coding fairies but I'm pretty sure the actual coders only see a pitiful fraction of those gem store profits.

The same coders who are being laid off because the seemingly satisfactory earnings are not enough to satisfy a shareholder's greed.

The same coders who are getting burnt out working crunch, while execs who haven't played a game their whole life enjoy the fruits of their labor. Check out wage distribution in the gaming industry, particularly AAA studios. The data is really interesting.

That's how an online gaming business works. And if this game had a monthly fee, the store would still be there and just as annoying. No need for delusions.

What I find silly is supporting a business built on anti-consumer practices while being a consumer yourself. And doing so while arguing it's all for the benefit of the poor devs. "Gotta pay the bills". If the arguement was "gotta pay an exec's new yacht", it would be far more legitimate.

So go complain to NCsoft, right?

In a sense, I am. I'm not seeing a distinction at this point. I'd wager Anet and NCwest are practically the same thing at the top level. At least when it comes to decision-making over monetization and how the game is developed around it.

Nobody blames coders and artists, the actual game devs, for monetization decisions.

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@Swagger.1459 said:@Vancho.8750 You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

When I am playing a game, though, I don't won't to be constantly reminded that 'we are a business trying to make money' with each and everything implemented. At least try to fool me that I am here for fun. That is the huge difference between the GW2 i use to play and the GW2 that is here now.

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Maybe Anet should start charging a mandatory monthly fee and put a few free skins in the game for you peeps. Perhaps then we won’t see complaints about the optional items on the gemstore that go to fund the company and game...

Edit- And of course the gold to gem exchange should go away too in this new model.

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@"Vancho.8750" said:Since i work in that part of the industry and i know how the sausage is made, some design choices have me worried. Usually i ignore them but after the lay offs things got little bit more pushy with the "Macro" transactions and the design of some content like the Skyscale unlock(bland, boring and unimaginative for the most part like most mobile game practices) and now with build templates (looks like copy of a mobile game feature the only part missing is charging for changing builds, don't get any kitten ideas from that). I don't think GW2 could survive a mobile game flop for pushing too hard. In the mobile space you can always reskin, recycle and reuse a flop into something "new" and it can be churned out quicker, not so much in the PC. Even in the mobile space you don't push way too hard on your crown jewel game that is in the public eye.Now that MO is out and Chris Corry will oversee NCSOFT west and from what i read his experience is in the mobile space from Kabam, that puts some doubt in the future of the game.

And since you work in the “industry”, I’m sure you have better ideas on how to monetize the game? Still haven’t answered that one.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:They could make real content people are happy to pay for?

Good idea! They should charge for every update too!

lol, i sense your sarcasm. o7No, what I am saying is that the game is BTP..updates are included in that but make a worthwhile expansion and people will happily pay.But if you are just gonna go LWSagas and nickel and dime everything in b/w it is not gonna go over well.You know they could do better...everyone knows they can do better. I am just waiting for them to show it.

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@Acheron.4731 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:They could make real content people are happy to pay for?

Good idea! They should charge for every update too!

lol, i sense your sarcasm. o7No, what I am saying is that the game is BTP..updates are included in that but make a worthwhile expansion and people will happily pay.But if you are just gonna go LWSagas and nickel and dime everything in b/w it is not gonna go over well.You know they could do better...everyone knows they can do better. I am just waiting for them to show it.

And what are your better ways to monetize the game?

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I am honestly not sure. I actually find it to be quite monetized as it is. QoL improvements that already existed in a better fashion before is probably not the route I would take. But, yeah, personally I would not have taken the LW approach and I still think they need to refocus on expansion delivery. I would address the community and say 'Hey, we realize we are not performing at the standards you have come to expect out of us and we are now all hands on deck in getting you that next level of gw2 you expect every two years." Not, the 'we are still here doing stuff after layoffs and here, buy this while you wait' approach they are taking.That is just my thoughts. I might be a vocal minority but still think it is a valid opinion.Yours is too though :)

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:They could make real content people are happy to pay for?

Good idea! They should charge for every update too!

lol, i sense your sarcasm. o7No, what I am saying is that the game is BTP..updates are included in that but make a worthwhile expansion and people will happily pay.But if you are just gonna go LWSagas and nickel and dime everything in b/w it is not gonna go over well.You know they could do better...everyone knows they can do better. I am just waiting for them to show it.

And what are your better ways to monetize the game?

They don't need us to tell them that, Anet knows of better ways already. The gem store and its effect on the game has changed a lot over the years. Pretending it's the same now as it was back then, seems ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Acheron.4731 said:They could make real content people are happy to pay for?

Good idea! They should charge for every update too!

lol, i sense your sarcasm. o7No, what I am saying is that the game is BTP..updates are included in that but make a worthwhile expansion and people will happily pay.But if you are just gonna go LWSagas and nickel and dime everything in b/w it is not gonna go over well.You know they could do better...everyone knows they can do better. I am just waiting for them to show it.

And what are your better ways to monetize the game?

Let me see here...

WoW charges a monthly fee and releases paid expansions every two years. Has been going strong for 15 years. Players generally know what to expect of each expansion when it comes to content (3 tiers of raids, story updates every X months, etc). We don't have any data on sub numbers but the closest thing to accurate data we have put them at around 2.5mil subs pre-Classic.

FF14 charges a monthly fee and releases paid expansions every two years. Has been taking more and more space in the market ever since the relaunch. They're consistent to a fault in their update schedule, to the point where people can accurately guess what content will drop when throughout the expansion. They have an average number of daily active players at 1.5mil. So sub numbers are probably a bit higher than that.

GW2 actually started out with a bang. Had over 1mil requests for participation in the Betas. Has since pretty much fallen into obscurity. The only consistent thing about it are the cash shop updates. Always a stream of those. Updates to PvP and WvW generally remain unkept promises. PvE updates are few and far in between. Balancing patches are usually the dev team breaking things in one patch and unbreaking them on the other.

Not that any of this info is gonna pierce your shill heart, ofc.

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Since we apparently can't use swear words of any kind, here's my comment version 2.0:

So you're comparing GW2s to WoW's (which has a dozen pets and mounts) and FF14's (which is mostly cosmetic. Buy them emotes, yo)? That's disingenuous at best. But you know what?Yeah, I much rather pay for the base game, pay for the expansion, and pay a monthly fee SO LONG as ANet has a store similar to WoW's: a very limited number of items. I'll GLADLY pay $15-20 bucks every month + $60-80 every couple of years for an expansion, so long as 90% of all mount skins are implemented into the game. So long as 90% of all the weapon skins, armor skins and costumes are implemented into the game. So long as 90% of the infinite tools and their glyphs are implemented into the game. So long as all the character, bank, bag, and template slots are put into the game. So long as the cash shop receives 1 or 2 items every semester like we see in WoW. And everything else they create is obtainable in-game, and not through my wallet.

Yeah, that's what I'm advocating, brother.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

So what you are saying is that you don’t understand how a business works, particularly an online game business.

How do you suppose Anet make money to pay staff, bills, taxes, health benefits and continue to develop the game? Let me guess, by growing money trees?

Do you also think there to be magical coding fairies that create everything overnight while the staff are sleeping?

Edit- You don’t pay a monthly fee to play and you can get gems by exchanging gold so you can get anything off the gemstore... yet you are still complaining about optional stuff being on the gemstore... silly.

I don't know about the magical coding fairies but I'm pretty sure the actual coders only see a pitiful fraction of those gem store profits.

The same coders who are being laid off because the seemingly satisfactory earnings are not enough to satisfy a shareholder's greed.

The same coders who are getting burnt out working crunch, while execs who haven't played a game their whole life enjoy the fruits of their labor. Check out wage distribution in the gaming industry, particularly AAA studios. The data is really interesting.

That's how an online gaming business works. And if this game had a monthly fee, the store would still be there and just as annoying. No need for delusions.

What I find silly is supporting a business built on anti-consumer practices while being a consumer yourself. And doing so while arguing it's all for the benefit of the poor devs. "Gotta pay the bills". If the arguement was "gotta pay an exec's new yacht", it would be far more legitimate.

So go complain to NCsoft, right?

In a sense, I am. I'm not seeing a distinction at this point. I'd wager Anet and NCwest are practically the same thing at the top level. At least when it comes to decision-making over monetization and how the game is developed around it.

Nobody blames coders and artists, the actual game devs, for monetization decisions.

Except you'd be wrong in your assumption...until the layoffs ArenaNet had complete control over the game, including the Gem Shop, marketing, sales and distribution...and based on statements made from NCSoft West around the time of the layoffs the only thing that change is that NCSoft is taking over publishing from ArenaNet, everything else is still under their control, which is why they have a marketing team and Gem Store people that you contact for problems in the first place.

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@Swagger.1459 said:Both those games have stores too. So are you advocating for anet to charge a game fee plus xpac fee plus monthly access fee and have an online store too?

If the sub fee will mean more earnable ingame content like it does for those games, as well as a stronger content cadence then ye. Its just one additional cost after all.

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@Dante.1508 said:Since taking a 4 year break its insane how much mobile style gaming has been added to this, it feels terrible and not enjoyable at all.. I guess others don't notice because they have been here the whole time to get used to it.. But wow it feels tacked on and nothing like other mmo's i've played..

Money is one thing ruining game flow to get money and to artificially gate customers is another thing entirely.

Money has always been a thing of need within gaming, we all just got used to shelling out subs all those years.ANET dared to be different and for a long time it worked, but times change, products get older and new things cost.. so it is imperative the business finds new ways to combat mother time and keep making money in order to develop the product further and/or development something new.As for time gating.. heck that is as old as the arc in terms of MMO's.. time gating is used primarily to provide oxygen in the development cycle. We gamers want content and we want it yesterday.. I wish it could work within JIT space but that just isn't going to happen when you consider just how fast we can tear through content these days.There is a reason expansions take years to develop, test and launch.. money and through that development cycle they have to make money in order to spend money, otherwise ANET would have to continually keep holding out the prayer pot to shareholders.. that might work for awhile, but it only goes so far and the slightest hitch in the revenue stream can have profound effects on your viability. So ANET have to look at ways to support not just its own financial viability long term, but that of NCSoft as well and that is no mean feat.

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

So what you are saying is that you don’t understand how a business works, particularly an online game business.

How do you suppose Anet make money to pay staff, bills, taxes, health benefits and continue to develop the game? Let me guess, by growing money trees?

Do you also think there to be magical coding fairies that create everything overnight while the staff are sleeping?

Edit- You don’t pay a monthly fee to play and you can get gems by exchanging gold so you can get anything off the gemstore... yet you are still complaining about optional stuff being on the gemstore... silly.

I don't know about the magical coding fairies but I'm pretty sure the actual coders only see a pitiful fraction of those gem store profits.

The same coders who are being laid off because the seemingly satisfactory earnings are not enough to satisfy a shareholder's greed.

The same coders who are getting burnt out working crunch, while execs who haven't played a game their whole life enjoy the fruits of their labor. Check out wage distribution in the gaming industry, particularly AAA studios. The data is really interesting.

That's how an online gaming business works. And if this game had a monthly fee, the store would still be there and just as annoying. No need for delusions.

What I find silly is supporting a business built on anti-consumer practices while being a consumer yourself. And doing so while arguing it's all for the benefit of the poor devs. "Gotta pay the bills". If the arguement was "gotta pay an exec's new yacht", it would be far more legitimate.

So go complain to NCsoft, right?

In a sense, I am. I'm not seeing a distinction at this point. I'd wager Anet and NCwest are practically the same thing at the top level. At least when it comes to decision-making over monetization and how the game is developed around it.

Nobody blames coders and artists, the actual game devs, for monetization decisions.

Except you'd be wrong in your assumption...until the layoffs ArenaNet had complete control over the game, including the Gem Shop, marketing, sales and distribution...and based on statements made from NCSoft West around the time of the layoffs the only thing that change is that NCSoft is taking over publishing from ArenaNet, everything else is still under their control, which is why they have a marketing team and Gem Store people that you contact for problems in the first place.

I guess you missed the "practically" part.

It's common knowledge that publishers have considerable pull over development in the industry today. It's not even that recent, I remember an editorial from Kotaku in 2013 with a developer source detailing the abusive relationship.

In our case we are not even talking about a simple developer-publisher relationship, but a parent-subsidiary one on top of that. A parent company that enforced a major restructuring of the subsidiary and a merger with their western publishing branch. Their PR can spin it however they want, but it doesn't take much to put two and two together. All one has to do to see NCsoft's growing influence over the years, is compare the gem store of early years with today's. As long as they are willing to see.

Big publishers are often major investors. In our case they actually own the studio. The publisher doesn't even have to intervene directly in development. More often than not, developers know what's expected by the higher ups and act accordingly.

EA never explicitly asked Bioware to make a live-service looter shooter. But Bioware management knew too well that EA prefers live service trends over single-player story-driven games. So they made a live-service looter shooter in Anthem and majorly sucked at it.

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@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

So what you are saying is that you don’t understand how a business works, particularly an online game business.

How do you suppose Anet make money to pay staff, bills, taxes, health benefits and continue to develop the game? Let me guess, by growing money trees?

Do you also think there to be magical coding fairies that create everything overnight while the staff are sleeping?

Edit- You don’t pay a monthly fee to play and you can get gems by exchanging gold so you can get anything off the gemstore... yet you are still complaining about optional stuff being on the gemstore... silly.

I don't know about the magical coding fairies but I'm pretty sure the actual coders only see a pitiful fraction of those gem store profits.

The same coders who are being laid off because the seemingly satisfactory earnings are not enough to satisfy a shareholder's greed.

The same coders who are getting burnt out working crunch, while execs who haven't played a game their whole life enjoy the fruits of their labor. Check out wage distribution in the gaming industry, particularly AAA studios. The data is really interesting.

That's how an online gaming business works. And if this game had a monthly fee, the store would still be there and just as annoying. No need for delusions.

What I find silly is supporting a business built on anti-consumer practices while being a consumer yourself. And doing so while arguing it's all for the benefit of the poor devs. "Gotta pay the bills". If the arguement was "gotta pay an exec's new yacht", it would be far more legitimate.

So go complain to NCsoft, right?

In a sense, I am. I'm not seeing a distinction at this point. I'd wager Anet and NCwest are practically the same thing at the top level. At least when it comes to decision-making over monetization and how the game is developed around it.

Nobody blames coders and artists, the actual game devs, for monetization decisions.

Except you'd be wrong in your assumption...until the layoffs ArenaNet had complete control over the game, including the Gem Shop, marketing, sales and distribution...and based on statements made from NCSoft West around the time of the layoffs the only thing that change is that NCSoft is taking over publishing from ArenaNet, everything else is still under their control, which is why they have a marketing team and Gem Store people that you contact for problems in the first place.

I guess you missed the "practically" part.

It's common knowledge that publishers have considerable pull over development in the industry today. It's not even that recent, I remember an editorial from Kotaku in 2013 with a developer source detailing the abusive relationship.

In our case we are not even talking about a simple developer-publisher relationship, but a parent-subsidiary one on top of that. A parent company that enforced a major restructuring of the subsidiary and a merger with their western publishing branch. Their PR can spin it however they want, but it doesn't take much to put two and two together. All one has to do to see NCsoft's growing influence over the years, is compare the gem store of early years with today's. As long as they are willing to see.

Big publishers are often major investors. In our case they actually own the studio. The publisher doesn't even have to intervene directly in development. More often than not, developers know what's expected by the higher ups and act accordingly.

EA never explicitly asked Bioware to make a live-service looter shooter. But Bioware management knew too well that EA prefers live service trends over single-player story-driven games. So they made a live-service looter shooter in Anthem and majorly sucked at it.

Actually, EA did explicitly tell BioWare to make a live service game...just what do you think saying "we want you to make a game like Destiny" tells a studio?

As a long time ArenaNet follower(like since the early days when it was called Triforge, Inc., before they got involved with NCSoft) and as someone that has is own opinion, which these are, they're our opinions of what is happening at ArenaNet, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and see what happens before making any judgments. I still think it's foolish for any business to try and not attract the 3 Billion mobile game market to the PC, seeing as the projected revenue for mobile gaming is expected to be almost $70 billion for 2019, imagine what a company could do with just $1b of that $70b in revenue.

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@"Vancho.8750" said:Since i work in that part of the industry and i know how the sausage is made, some design choices have me worried. Usually i ignore them but after the lay offs things got little bit more pushy with the "Macro" transactions and the design of some content like the Skyscale unlock(bland, boring and unimaginative for the most part like most mobile game practices) and now with build templates (looks like copy of a mobile game feature the only part missing is charging for changing builds, don't get any kitten ideas from that). I don't think GW2 could survive a mobile game flop for pushing too hard. In the mobile space you can always reskin, recycle and reuse a flop into something "new" and it can be churned out quicker, not so much in the PC. Even in the mobile space you don't push way too hard on your crown jewel game that is in the public eye.Now that MO is out and Chris Corry will oversee NCSOFT west and from what i read his experience is in the mobile space from Kabam, that puts some doubt in the future of the game.Their approach with the gem store noticeably changed around the time when mount skins started coming out. Not having another expansion in the pipeline also creates a problem for revenue because PoF brought back players and spending went up, also gem store spending for quite a while after the expansion came out. LS chapters or Sagas as they are rebranded do not have that impact.

Sure, an expansion also costs money/resources to make but PoF was succesful but over time sales will go down again and that has started happening again, which means they need more gem store spending and this is pretty much the only way they can. That's why I was not surprise to see their welcome back sale earlier this year. They need people to have PoF for the Sagas I guess and they need an influx in sales. It of course helps from a cost perspective that they had to cut 35% of their staff but at some point a down trend is still a down trend and for their long term survival it needs to be at least slowed down.

So really, considering they are not to keen on doing another expansion (which sounds to me they care more about what they want than the customers), I fully expect the gem store to become more and more of a focus. I guess I'm also not surprised at reading that people have to pay for template slots.

This wasn't how things were done in GW1 and I think MO remembers that those times weren't necessarily easy but definitely more honest and that might mean something to a person.

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Vancho.8750" You should know game companies, just like every other business, need to make money to survive and grow if “you work in that part of the industry”. Or do you happen to work for free with a company that gives everything for free?

I dont think anyone is asking for free stuff. Just a more tasteful business model.

“Tasteful”? You mean the “business model” that doesn’t charge a monthly user fee and allows players to get gems for free to buy stuff off the gemstore by exchanging game gold. That one? And the one where non-pay to-win and convenience items are sold on the gemstore?

Yeah, the one that had doubled the gemstore updates while all other areas have slowed down, the one that has pushed lootboxes/gambling predatory tactics now harder than it ever had, the one that falsly advertises chairs then changes the art after ppl have bought said chairs and complained. The one that tied cooking 500 to the gemstore and now has split and monetised build templates in 3 diff ways. The one that you will have a much better time playing the game if you fork over some cash to buy the necessary qol (because if you are a new player all the best farms are money gated to you and farming without bags and salvage omatics is hell). The one that god forbit would lose out on a mount or a glider being a drop from a raid, dungeon, world boss, fractal, pvp or wvw as oposed to charging for it.

And finally that one which sold you the 30 mount lootbox and then 100smth dollar bundle to get them all.

I personally consider the business model anet has to be better than that of other devs but still theres alot to be desired and alot that leave a sour taste in my mouth.

So what you are saying is that you don’t understand how a business works, particularly an online game business.

How do you suppose Anet make money to pay staff, bills, taxes, health benefits and continue to develop the game? Let me guess, by growing money trees?

Do you also think there to be magical coding fairies that create everything overnight while the staff are sleeping?

Edit- You don’t pay a monthly fee to play and you can get gems by exchanging gold so you can get anything off the gemstore... yet you are still complaining about optional stuff being on the gemstore... silly.

I don't know about the magical coding fairies but I'm pretty sure the actual coders only see a pitiful fraction of those gem store profits.

The same coders who are being laid off because the seemingly satisfactory earnings are not enough to satisfy a shareholder's greed.

The same coders who are getting burnt out working crunch, while execs who haven't played a game their whole life enjoy the fruits of their labor. Check out wage distribution in the gaming industry, particularly AAA studios. The data is really interesting.

That's how an online gaming business works. And if this game had a monthly fee, the store would still be there and just as annoying. No need for delusions.

What I find silly is supporting a business built on anti-consumer practices while being a consumer yourself. And doing so while arguing it's all for the benefit of the poor devs. "Gotta pay the bills". If the arguement was "gotta pay an exec's new yacht", it would be far more legitimate.

So go complain to NCsoft, right?

In a sense, I am. I'm not seeing a distinction at this point. I'd wager Anet and NCwest are practically the same thing at the top level. At least when it comes to decision-making over monetization and how the game is developed around it.

Nobody blames coders and artists, the actual game devs, for monetization decisions.

Except you'd be wrong in your assumption...until the layoffs ArenaNet had complete control over the game, including the Gem Shop, marketing, sales and distribution...and based on statements made from NCSoft West around the time of the layoffs the only thing that change is that NCSoft is taking over publishing from ArenaNet, everything else is still under their control, which is why they have a marketing team and Gem Store people that you contact for problems in the first place.

I guess you missed the "practically" part.

It's common knowledge that publishers have considerable pull over development in the industry today. It's not even that recent, I remember an editorial from Kotaku in 2013 with a developer source detailing the abusive relationship.

In our case we are not even talking about a simple developer-publisher relationship, but a parent-subsidiary one on top of that. A parent company that enforced a major restructuring of the subsidiary and a merger with their western publishing branch. Their PR can spin it however they want, but it doesn't take much to put two and two together. All one has to do to see NCsoft's growing influence over the years, is compare the gem store of early years with today's. As long as they are willing to see.

Big publishers are often major investors. In our case they actually own the studio. The publisher doesn't even have to intervene directly in development. More often than not, developers know what's expected by the higher ups and act accordingly.

EA never explicitly asked Bioware to make a live-service looter shooter. But Bioware management knew too well that EA prefers live service trends over single-player story-driven games. So they made a live-service looter shooter in Anthem and majorly sucked at it.

Actually, EA did explicitly tell BioWare to make a live service game...just what do you think saying "we want you to make a game like Destiny" tells a studio?

As a long time ArenaNet follower(like since the early days when it was called Triforge, Inc., before they got involved with NCSoft) and as someone that has is own opinion, which these are, they're our opinions of what is happening at ArenaNet, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and see what happens before making any judgments. I still think it's foolish for any business to try and not attract the 3 Billion mobile game market to the PC, seeing as the projected revenue for mobile gaming is expected to be almost $70 billion for 2019, imagine what a company could do with just $1b of that $70b in revenue.

EA did no such thing. It was Bioware's choice to go for a Destiny clone (even if the project didn't start with that intention). Of course they knew EA pushes for the live-service model and chose to try and satisfy their corporate masters.

You are right, from a business perspective, it makes sense to try and tap into the lucrative mobile market by copying some of their money-making schemes.

But I'm not a business, I'm a player/consumer. And as such, I know that mobile gaming is synonymous with exploitative practices, low investment for max return, lack of quality control and full of money grabbing scams.

A shareholder who just got involved with gaming because they smelled profit, would salivate at the prospect of turning the PC market into an imitation of that toxic cesspool. As a gamer since the mid 90s, I can only see it as a nightmarish future and the death of my favourite hobby. And from the looks of it (this game included), that future is not that distant.

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