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Is reaper a condition spec?


Archivist.8109

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Reaper was designed as a Power spec and has one trait to make it attractive for Condition specs.

It's also still incredibly good as a condition spec with Greatsword seeing use in them. Now, it doesn't hold a candle to Scourge's condition DPS, but it's arguably better against mobile enemies and has superior staying power in a fight.

Condition Reaper is currently the meta for the specialization.

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Scepter/Torch is standard for Condition Scourge. Swaps are Offhand Dagger for the condition transfer, or Staff in wvw/pvp for the trap marks with Staff Life Force generation traited.

Personally I don't like Condition Reaper's gameplay of only really using Greatsword and Reaper Shroud for Chill combos.

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I tried dagger main hand but could not get it to work as well as sceptre. Without a real shroud immunity skill, Scourge does not have enough sustain skills to melee. Also, Scourge is very condition oriented while dagger is relatively bad at conditions.

This does not mean you cannot play Scourge as a hybrid/corruption build rather than pure condi dps for PvP or other game modes or content.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:I tried dagger main hand but could not get it to work as well as sceptre. Without a real shroud immunity skill, Scourge does not have enough sustain skills to melee. Also, Scourge is very condition oriented while dagger is relatively bad at conditions.

This does not mean you cannot play Scourge as a hybrid/corruption build rather than pure condi dps for PvP or other game modes or content.

Yeah mh dagger is a bit disappointing.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Reaper was designed as a Power spec and has one trait to make it attractive for Condition specs.

It's also still incredibly good as a condition spec with Greatsword seeing use in them. Now, it doesn't hold a candle to Scourge's condition DPS, but it's arguably better against mobile enemies and has superior staying power in a fight.

Condition Reaper is currently the meta for the specialization.

So reaper was designer as power with a single condition twist, and in the end the single condition build is meta.. wtf

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There are no condition specs in the game!

Every elite spec is designed to work on power and condition builds.

So every elite spec has three kinds of traits: power, condition and utility.

On Reaper this is a bit more obvious (Reaper chills 24/7 and chill adds condi damage but GS is still the best power weapon). On Scourge it is more hidden but still a fact.

Power Scourges are positively affected by the better LF generation of power weapons which let's them use F-skills more often (=more damage procs, more utility) and on top of that they can use the utility traits for more sustain while condi Scourges lose damage potential if they do so.

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@Jephery.8915 said:Not every spec works in both power and condition builds.

Spellbreaker for example has zero traits or utilities that work or synergize with conditions and its Daggers don't do any condition damage.

When paired with Strenght trait line Spellbreaker is good to apply conditions by stripping stability and CC/interrupt foes.But power kills faster so noone run with a Hammer - Mace/Shield build.But yes, Spellbreaker's only condi trait are tied to CC and Full Counter's copy conditions.

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Reaper is a melee frontliner spec, with emphasis on cleave, fighthing multiple mobs at once and being able to take the punishment.Ppl saying "it was meant to be power" are full of it. Strong poison burst on reaper shroud #4, tons of chills for deathly chill trait, shroud aa that greatly synergizes with dhuumfire and 2 whirl finishers are very condi friendly tools.

Reaper is meant to be whatever you want it to be, as long as you're fine with it being in the thick of things and not a pure healer/boon spammer.

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@Archivist.8109 said:Basically just the title. Does reaper work well with a condition build? I can't really tell from just reading. I'm also new, so that doesn't help.

Yes, it functions best as a condition build.

Keep in mind the condi reaper derives most of it's power from deathly chill trait.

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@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Reaper is a melee frontliner spec, with emphasis on cleave, fighthing multiple mobs at once and being able to take the punishment.Ppl saying "it was meant to be power" are full of it. Strong poison burst on reaper shroud #4, tons of chills for deathly chill trait, shroud aa that greatly synergizes with dhuumfire and 2 whirl finishers are very condi friendly tools.

Reaper is meant to be whatever you want it to be, as long as you're fine with it being in the thick of things and not a pure healer/boon spammer.

It's almost like you don't know how reaper works, or how chill worked. The 'condi freiendly tools' are tools ment to keep the reaper on the target, and keep the target incapacitated. There is a reason it does poison instead of an actual high damaging condition. There is a reason Reaper shoud has stability, and an ice feild, with a low cd slide.

Every time someone says this i laugh and just point at all of the latest patch notes for reaper, in addition to the fact that it applies no damage stacking conditions, and the only reason it even has a condi build is because deathly chill is a broken sack of garbage. It is literally the only reason that build exist. There is a reason QT calls it a 'bad build'.

If you think having traits, a weapon, and runes designed for power damage, isn't 'meant to be power', then you are basically saying that there is never a purpose or stat type in mind when Anet makes a spec. And that is just untrue. Having condi friendly tools doesn't mean condi was an intention during its inception. Thats like saying druid wasn't meant to be a healing spec when literally everything in it alters healing or some type of support function. A dev doesn't need to explicitely say that it is. It's written all over the specs, the wep it gave, its traits, it's runes. And literally every balance patch since the launch of HoT.

If the recent change to cold shoulder doesn't convince some, then i guess some are to dense for their own good.

Just note that when deathly chill gets gutted, don't say i didn't tell you so.

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@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Reaper is a melee frontliner spec, with emphasis on cleave, fighthing multiple mobs at once and being able to take the punishment.Ppl saying "it was meant to be power" are full of it. Strong poison burst on reaper shroud #4, tons of chills for deathly chill trait, shroud aa that greatly synergizes with dhuumfire and 2 whirl finishers are very condi friendly tools.

Reaper is meant to be whatever you want it to be, as long as you're fine with it being in the thick of things and not a pure healer/boon spammer.

It's almost like you don't know how reaper works, or how chill worked. The 'condi freiendly tools' are tools ment to keep the reaper on the target, and keep the target incapacitated. There is a reason it does poison instead of an actual high damaging condition. There is a reason Reaper shoud has stability, and an ice feild, with a low cd slide.

Every time someone says this i laugh and just point at all of the latest patch notes for reaper, in addition to the fact that it applies no damage stacking conditions, and the only reason it even has a condi build is because deathly chill is a broken sack of garbage. It is literally the only reason that build exist. There is a reason QT calls it a 'bad build'.

If you think having traits, a weapon, and runes designed for power damage, isn't 'meant to be power', then you are basically saying that there is never a purpose or stat type in mind when Anet makes a spec. And that is just untrue. Having condi friendly tools doesn't mean condi was an intention during its inception. Thats like saying druid wasn't meant to be a healing spec when literally everything in it alters healing or some type of support function. A dev doesn't need to explicitely say that it is. It's written all over the specs, the wep it gave, its traits, it's runes. And literally every balance patch since the launch of HoT.

If the recent change to cold shoulder doesn't convince some, then i guess some are to dense for their own good.

Just note that when deathly chill gets gutted, don't say i didn't tell you so.

Let's see - grandmaster trait that was a unique, necro only condi (damage on chill, later turned to bleeds), superior condi build output to power one, shroud that by design may be power, but with just a trait or two has crazy good condi output...yeah, you keep telling yourself reaper was to be power and nothing else...

Meanwhile back in the real world everything clearly points to the obvious - reaper's design goal was strong and versatile melee fighter with tools to take the heat and build it into what you need, be it condi or power.

The very tame upgrade to cold shouder, especially after how lots of good foods got heavily gutted (like furious series consumables) says, that they want to bring power necro closer to condi build, but are careful about it, as by default power builds have more sustain then condi ones, so the damage must be kept in check.Least from a-net's point of view, looking at it so far.

Even if it happend all by mistake on supposedly "power only" build (which i doubt), the result was an extremely fun, versatile and more engaging experience then core necro and obviously a keeper. You don't kill a goose that lays golden eggs, and axing condi aspect of reaper would be such a move. You can buff power, without killing off condi, and that's what they seem to be aiming for here.

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@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Reaper is a melee frontliner spec, with emphasis on cleave, fighthing multiple mobs at once and being able to take the punishment.Ppl saying "it was meant to be power" are full of it. Strong poison burst on reaper shroud #4, tons of chills for deathly chill trait, shroud aa that greatly synergizes with dhuumfire and 2 whirl finishers are very condi friendly tools.

Reaper is meant to be whatever you want it to be, as long as you're fine with it being in the thick of things and not a pure healer/boon spammer.

It's almost like you don't know how reaper works, or how chill worked. The 'condi friendly tools' are tools meant to keep the reaper on the target, and keep the target incapacitated. There is a reason it does poison instead of an actual high damaging condition. There is a reason Reaper shroud has stability, and an ice field, with a low cd slide.

Every time someone says this i laugh and just point at all of the latest patch notes for reaper, in addition to the fact that it applies no damage stacking conditions, and the only reason it even has a condi build is because deathly chill is a broken sack of garbage. It is literally the only reason that build exist. There is a reason QT calls it a 'bad build'.

If you think having traits, a weapon, and runes designed for power damage, isn't 'meant to be power', then you are basically saying that there is never a purpose or stat type in mind when Anet makes a spec. And that is just untrue. Having condi friendly tools doesn't mean condi was an intention during its inception. Thats like saying druid wasn't meant to be a healing spec when literally everything in it alters healing or some type of support function. A dev doesn't need to explicitely say that it is. It's written all over the specs, the wep it gave, its traits, it's runes. And literally every balance patch since the launch of HoT.

If the recent change to cold shoulder doesn't convince some, then i guess some are to dense for their own good.

Just note that when deathly chill gets gutted, don't say i didn't tell you so.

Deathly Chill Was (not is) broken, not because it was overpowered or didn't fit the build, but because in its original form punished you for playing with other players that were running Chill. As for it being the only reason the Condi build exists, this isn't true either. When an entire sub-set of the Reaper traits either improve or give you more ways to use Chill, that implies intentional implementation that not only synergizes within the Specialization itself but with the class as a whole. When Deathly Chill, which started out as a Condi scaling trait, that originally improved against targets low on health, was changed from causing Chill to deal damage to applying bleeds this implied an intentional shift toward improving a Condi focused trait (and even more so when Reaper's Onslaught was changed to be more accommodating for power builds by adding Ferocity). At this point it WAS only deserving of the "bad build" label from qT because of the view that it was some kind of impossible task to consistently get chilling bolts in a fight with other combo fields being thrown around, but a way was found based on combo field prioritization to consistently do this 90% of the time or more when practiced. This is evident in the subtle acknowledgement in the recent benchmark post from qT "It no longer relies on getting whirl finishers in chill fields for good DPS".

As for the tools only being for incapacitation and not for damaging conditions, this isn't true either. Deathly Chill transforms how one approaches the usage of Chill as a whole, and combined with the vulnerability from GS if needed, the ability to stack things together to make cleaving with aoe conditions easier and ability to utilize combo fields to great extent with the whirl finisher from Gravedigger makes it greatly suited to performing as a condi weapon when given the right application. Frankly, when a weapon for a Specialization can be applied to multiple build contexts and perform well indicates great design, and not something that needs to be dumbed down so Reaper can be more "Meta".

"There is a reason it does poison instead of an actual high damaging condition". You're right, there is, and that is one of thematics. Just slapping on the highest damaging condition and calling it a day is lazy design, and there is more depth to it in this case. To fit the lumbering harbinger of death motif Anet was going for, I view the application of poison here as enabling a Reaper to lower the ability for a target to heal, preventing them from escaping the danger of being killed where they stand. The condition applied by a skill can be more than just an indication of how powerful a skill should be.

Furthermore, you can't say "A dev doesn't need to explicitly say that it is" then act as if your own opinion is the only correct one. If I had my way both the Power and Condi builds of Reaper would work to an equal level, and the balance changes have shown that Anet have been slowly but surely trying to improve the state of Power Necro over time. Note that I say Power Necro, and not Reaper, as I believe the problems facing Reaper lie not with its traits (in which it already has some great options in the form of Decimate Defenses and Reaper's Onslaught) but how the base class supports Power damage. You also can't say "If you think having traits, a weapon, and runes designed for power damage, isn't 'meant to be power', then you are basically saying that there is never a purpose or stat type in mind when Anet makes a spec. And that is just untrue. Having Condi friendly tools doesn't mean Condi was an intention during its inception" you're almost immediately going back on what you say, which seems to be that traits, weapons and runes don't equate to what damage type a Specialization SHOULD do. If you can take anything from how Anet have spoken about their new Specializations, its that they aren't made to fit a certain damage type, but to fit a new play style. Much in the way that Reaper allowed Necro to play more of a frontline melee bruiser playstyle, Scourge allows Necro players to forego defensive options for playstyle that allows for more group support and more of a 'glass cannon' identity. To simply take a class design and only make it possible for it to be played one way is lazy design, and as shown so far Anet is capable of a more dynamic design process that allows multiple build varieties to be possible.

I will concede that the changes to cold shoulder were bad for Condi, but not because it is some harbinger for Condi being swept away and leaving only Power behind, but because it was a great defensive boost for a Condi build that had a far easier time of maintaining chill on a target due to being able to boost the length of the chill condition, and generally apply more of it, especially since the Condi build gets very little benefit from the new offensive identity of the trait (in my testing a noted a less than 5% dps increase).

But hey, I could be wrong. Anet may very well remove Deathly Chill in its current form and "gut" the Condi Reaper playstyle. But I believe this is a grievous error, because minimizing diversity of play is not good balance. What happens forward heavily depends on how careful Anet is with balance so as to buff Power Necro builds but also not do so in such a way that pushes Condi Necro builds over the edge of being OP.

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@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Reaper is a melee frontliner spec, with emphasis on cleave, fighthing multiple mobs at once and being able to take the punishment.Ppl saying "it was meant to be power" are full of it. Strong poison burst on reaper shroud #4, tons of chills for deathly chill trait, shroud aa that greatly synergizes with dhuumfire and 2 whirl finishers are very condi friendly tools.

Reaper is meant to be whatever you want it to be, as long as you're fine with it being in the thick of things and not a pure healer/boon spammer.

It's almost like you don't know how reaper works, or how chill worked. The 'condi freiendly tools' are tools ment to keep the reaper on the target, and keep the target incapacitated. There is a reason it does poison instead of an actual high damaging condition. There is a reason Reaper shoud has stability, and an ice feild, with a low cd slide.

Every time someone says this i laugh and just point at all of the latest patch notes for reaper, in addition to the fact that it applies no damage stacking conditions, and the only reason it even has a condi build is because deathly chill is a broken sack of garbage. It is literally the only reason that build exist. There is a reason QT calls it a 'bad build'.

If you think having traits, a weapon, and runes designed for power damage, isn't 'meant to be power', then you are basically saying that there is never a purpose or stat type in mind when Anet makes a spec. And that is just untrue. Having condi friendly tools doesn't mean condi was an intention during its inception. Thats like saying druid wasn't meant to be a healing spec when literally everything in it alters healing or some type of support function. A dev doesn't need to explicitely say that it is. It's written all over the specs, the wep it gave, its traits, it's runes. And literally every balance patch since the launch of HoT.

If the recent change to cold shoulder doesn't convince some, then i guess some are to dense for their own good.

Just note that when deathly chill gets gutted, don't say i didn't tell you so.

Even if it happend all by mistake on supposedly "power only" build (which i doubt), the result was an extremely fun, versatile and more engaging experience then core necro and obviously a keeper.

Watching the paint dry is more engaging experience than core necro, so that's not saying much. Actual result of said mistake was clunky, unreliable mess that ended up unwelcome in most of PVE. Before said mistake was made, it was clunky unreliable mess that didn't work in amounts more than 1. Don't both of those situations just scream "dedicated condi spec" to you?

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@Wintermute.5408 said:Watching the paint dry is more engaging experience than core necro, so that's not saying much. Actual result of said mistake was clunky, unreliable mess that ended up unwelcome in most of PVE. Before said mistake was made, it was clunky unreliable mess that didn't work in amounts more than 1. Don't both of those situations just scream "dedicated condi spec" to you?

You can paint any playstyle in a bad light if you take a negative tone. I could describe Power Reaper as one that is only about auto-attacking with Shroud until you get a target below 50% hp, at which point you hold down one button till it dies, but if I were to do so it would be unfair to the playstyle because it can have more depth than that. In the same vein, Condi Reaper has that same level of depth, and is more than just whirling in ice fields (which is more reliable than you give it credit for) that was far less reliable before Deathly Chill applied bleeds due to the hard cap of 5 stacks of chill for targets, but now very much accommodates amounts more than 1 both for allies using chill and allies using different kinds of combo fields.

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