Suggestion: Out-of-Combat Perma-Stealth Elite

[wisprr.4612]

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm completely aware this has the potential to start a flame war, so please stay on topic and only post comments of how to implement something like this. It is not our place to decide what should not go in game, that is for the Devs to choose or not.

Rant: It drives me up the flipping wall how the Engineer Scrapper literally has the best stealth skill in-game, and they got an elite Stealth well before Thief did. Futhermore, if you are clever, yes, you can keep stealth up constantly if you don't attack, buuuuut only if you have a flipping rifle equiped. The hell, because a rifle is more sneaky then say two daggers? Or hell, even two pistols?!

I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops. That's it, if the devs wanted to make it more combat relevent give the player 3 secs of stealth at the beginning of combat.

From a programmer's perspective, I can think of multiple ways to implement this easy pleasy. As for other mechanics, using a gathering node drops you from stealth, but if you have the Stealth Gliding mastery unlocked gliding wouldn't. You'd also drop stealth when mounting or interacting with things, as normal. Technically the skill wouldn't even need a cooldown, just lock it's usage in combat. (Think of mounts, there is a sword across them when in combat, can literally do the same exact thing.) If you broke stealth outside of combat, give it like a 5 sec cooldown. Hell, if they really wanted to they could make a signet and just having it equiped generates the effect. As for the Stealth itself, there are plenty of buff-like-effects that have no timer on them, just copy and paste Stealth, give it a different name and icon, and write it without a timer while keeping all the normal interactions stealth has, such as reveal or what not. Call it Prowling or something.

Wrap Up: There is a great number of possible means for implementing something like this, and when/if they eventually come out with Cantha, I would love to see something like this for a Ninja specialization, and I sure as hell don't mind giving up an elite slot to get it. (Personally, I detest thief elites, Thieves' Guild is by far the best and I get /really/ sick of being forced to slot it in almost every build.)

[Kulvar.1239]

Wouldn't the ninja be the daredevil ?

[rdigeri.7935]

Hmmm, the current skill philosophy seems to be that every skill must be usable in combat. But let's say this new elite spec got a skill type that acts differently depending on whether you're in combat or not (kinda like druid glyphs), then i could imagine this being great.

[DeceiverX.8361]

It would require disabling backstab and would still need to apply revealed upon striking. Otherwise it just downright breaks the thief.

[Kulvar.1239]

Or just add it as F3 mechanic to the classF3 that put you in stealth (toggle).Cannot be activated while in combat.Make you invisible to any foe that is out of detection range.Appear with 60% opacity and no visible name tag when detected.Break if you attack or get attacked (even accidentally).Detection rangeFront : 1200Side : 900Back : 300

Hiding the name tag let you hide behind crates or barrels even within detection range.

[Kageseigi.2150]

I would be happy just to allow the tree tonic in PvP and remove the nameplate when transformed.

[wisprr.4612]

@Kulvar: Technically, the Thief is the Ninja class, in beta it was one of two (guardian the other) new classes based upon GW1 classes loosely. Also, I was later thinking it could also be implemented by replacing the Steal Command (is that F3? I'm a leftie so rebind all my keys), so I really like that idea too. Goes to prove the point there are a LOT of ways to implement something like this, and I know I'm not the only sneakie-sneakie character out there that would love to see something like this.

@rdigeri: You are quite correct, and exactly that crossed my mind, and yea, Druid Glyphs came to mind as well. For balance purposes it would need to be able to do something in combat. For personal purposes, I would be more than happy to give up a combat skill to have something like this was a point I wanted to include, even giving up my elite skill which is a character's most powerful. And that is something else you make a good point at, literally all of the mechanics needed to make something like this happen already exists in-game. I'm not saying make this happen now, but it is something I have like to see occur since day 1, but the devs don't know our feelings unless we speak up.

@DeceiverX: Yes, exactly, thank you so much for posting, this is just a very rough concept that needs a great deal of fleshing out, and the Devs would need to, but that doesn't mean we can't suggest possibilities, and the more player input there is the better, since they get our experience as well as there own.

Everyone: Thank you all for your posts and great ideas, thank you more for remaining respectful. One of the many things I love about GW, our community tends to be much more respectful and mature towards each other than many other communities. Please, keep the posts coming if you like this idea or have suggestions on how to make something like this work. The Devs will do what they need to, but again, doesn't mean we can't lighten the load a lil bit for them.

[Kulvar.1239]

@wisprr.4612 said:@Kulvar: Technically, the Thief is the Ninja class, in beta it was one of two (guardian the other) new classes based upon GW1 classes loosely. Also, I was later thinking it could also be implemented by replacing the Steal Command (is that F3? I'm a leftie so rebind all my keys), so I really like that idea too. Goes to prove the point there are a LOT of ways to implement something like this, and I know I'm not the only sneakie-sneakie character out there that would love to see something like this.

Steal : F1Stolen spell : F2So... stealth => F3 ^^

[derd.6413]

stealth would need a complete rework for something like that to work

[Kulvar.1239]

@derd.6413 said:stealth would need a complete rework for something like that to work

I'm talking about true stealth, not 3s invisibility as currently. So no need to change anything else.

[derd.6413]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:stealth would need a complete rework for something like that to work

I'm talking about true stealth, not 3s invisibility as currently. So no need to change anything else.

it'd need it especially in that case

[wisprr.4612]

Heh, holy hell, they actually have what we are discussing here in a very limited bases in-game already. I just did S4, Kourna, Forarmed is Forwarned, I won't go into too many details to avoid spoilers for those whom have not done it, but it has proximity, and it has something we have not mentioned but would also be perfect, it raises the chance of detection when you are moving.

Something else from that that would be awesome, and is already setup, is certain creatures have cones in front of them that auto-detect you. From a coder's perspective it would be easy pleasy to replicate the same exact thing on pre-existing creatures that make sense having it, such as guards, canines, etc. That would be such an awesome feature to have on Krytan Drakehounds, considering they are literally trained to find things.

I thought of another possible way to do this also, it's be possible to have a Thief Kit skill that replaces all weapon skills, like the ones Engineers have, hell, you can already get Whisper Disguise Kits like that that anybody can use, and use grants a brief period of combat stealth.

@derd: I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

Everyone: I would please like to remind everyone, please stay on topic. I'd appreciate it if people refrained from posts such as "this is great" (you can simply thumb this up to denote such) as well as "this sucks" (this is a suggestion thread for adding a feature, thus giving a list of reasons /not/ to add it is the exact opposite and as such you could not be more off topic, on top of which it is inflammatory which is against forum usage policy which you had to agree to simply to post here. In addition, only the Devs decide what goes in or does not, I personally find it quite insulting to them when players state "this has to go in" or "this can't go in", I did very clearly state this is something me and others I've spoken to would enjoy seeing something like this.)

[Kulvar.1239]

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:stealth would need a complete rework for something like that to work

I'm talking about true stealth, not 3s invisibility as currently. So no need to change anything else.

it'd need it especially in that case

We misunderstood. I mean that both stealth and 3s invisibility can coexists. Stealth would be an out of combat thing that give the thief the "initiative" of the fight.

[derd.6413]

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd: I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

[Kulvar.1239]

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

[derd.6413]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

i love how your answer didn't even mention stealth like "yeah stealth has no counter play but you can survive burst damage."

[rdigeri.7935]

I have a simple suggestion which'd satisfy both views

-Using this stealth skill disables every other skill until you deactivate it.-Deactivation has 1-3sec cast time.-you are revealed for 3 seconds upon deactivation.

That way it's truly a passive, non-combat stealth that is all about spying or positioning.

And yeah proximity based revealing would be interesting.

[Virdo.1540]

Its perma-stealth elite is the sniper... again

[Kulvar.1239]

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

i love how your answer didn't even mention stealth like "yeah stealth has no counter play but you can survive burst damage."

The counter to stealth is seeing the thief approaching by not showing your back and waiting.

[derd.6413]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

i love how your answer didn't even mention stealth like "yeah stealth has no counter play but you can survive burst damage."

The counter to stealth is seeing the thief approaching by not showing your back and waiting.

how would i see the thief coming when he's perma-stealthed.

I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops.

did you even read OPs post?

[Kulvar.1239]

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

i love how your answer didn't even mention stealth like "yeah stealth has no counter play but you can survive burst damage."

The counter to stealth is seeing the thief approaching by not showing your back and waiting.

how would i see the thief coming when he's perma-stealthed.

I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops.

As said, by having him in detection range

[derd.6413]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

i love how your answer didn't even mention stealth like "yeah stealth has no counter play but you can survive burst damage."

The counter to stealth is seeing the thief approaching by not showing your back and waiting.

how would i see the thief coming when he's perma-stealthed.

I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops.

As said, by having him in detection range

i'm not talking about your post, i'm talking about OPs

[draxynnic.3719]

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

i love how your answer didn't even mention stealth like "yeah stealth has no counter play but you can survive burst damage."

The counter to stealth is seeing the thief approaching by not showing your back and waiting.

how would i see the thief coming when he's perma-stealthed.

I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops.

As said, by having him in detection range

i'm not talking about your post, i'm talking about OPs

Well, the OP is talking about looking for ways to implement it, and one step to doing so is finding some way of making it fair.

Permanent stealth while out of combat, using the existing stealth mechanics, would be unfair. However, if there was something similar to what happens in some personal story instances involving stealth, where entities have a "zone of awareness" within which they'll see you regardless, that probably would serve to remove 90% of the problems while offering some counterplay. "Skips" in PvE would still require dodging zones of awareness, and in sPvP and WvW, you could actually reasonably hunt someone down rather than having to rely on flailing randomly and hoping for a lucky hit or long-recharge reveal utilities.

I would be inclined to think that every hostile entity should have a detection zone, rather than just some, and there might be some zones where you just can't use this sort of stealth (inside towers and forts in WvW, near capture points and other significant locations in sPvP), but it's probably not something to be discarded out of hand.

If implemented as a signet, it could also be made so that if activated, it gives an extended period of regular stealth (allowing for more opportunity to set up a stealth attack than the current 3s duration often does) to give it a combat functionality - keeping in mind that if this was to be implemented, it would probably be as part of a new elite specialisation and not something that can be combined with malice-fueled Deadeye stealth attacks. Something like a 60s recharge for active usage might be suitable.

[derd.6413]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

GW2 do have something to counter that.Thief is limited by initiative when other classes have cooldowns. This make thief bursty, but then he's starved. So it's a matter of surviving the initial burst.By having defensive cooldowns and stunbreak/stability, you can handle the initial burst.

i love how your answer didn't even mention stealth like "yeah stealth has no counter play but you can survive burst damage."

The counter to stealth is seeing the thief approaching by not showing your back and waiting.

how would i see the thief coming when he's perma-stealthed.

I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops.

As said, by having him in detection range

i'm not talking about your post, i'm talking about OPs

Well, the OP is talking about looking for ways to implement it, and one step to doing so is finding some way of making it

fair.

Permanent stealth while out of combat, using the existing stealth mechanics,

would

be unfair.

yes, thank you for agreeing with me because that's what i was saying from the start.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

Revealed is supposed to be a counter to stealth, however it is poorly implemented. They should really just get rid of Revealed.

I once suggested a counterplay to give Thieves, and only Thieves, the ability to detect all things hidden - stealth players, traps, preparations, etc. Since the Thief is proficient in Shadow Arts, they should have the innate ability to detect anything hidden. The stealth player will appear as smokey figure lurking around that can be targeted by the Thief. The range of this ability will be 600, so any stealth player who enters within 600 range of the Thief will appear as a targetable smokey figure. In addition, the Thief will also be able to target traps/preparation and attack it to disarm it. The traps will appears as a targetable smokey camp fire. This will make Thief a good roaming buddy.