sile.1604 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Basicly what the title says? What would you ideally run for a 10 man havoc/guild squad in this meta? The goal is to be able to fight other groups of same or larger size (blob busting unorganised groups), maybe do some GvGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 2 support Firebrand, 3 condition Scourge, 1 power GS Reaper, 1 Prot Holo, 1 boon share and Focus Chrono, 1 support Scrapper and 1 GS + Axe/Shield Berserker.Enough healing support to maintain each other in a ball + high Protection. Lots of boon rip/corrupt. Reaper, Berserker and Holo extremely deadly in mid-range/melee fights. Scourges provide enough pressure to pirate ship and kite if needed + high mid-range/melee CC from various sources. Chrono and Reaper capable of pulling in small groups of players for lock downs and bombs.I don't GvG so I could see there being far better options than this, but this is what I'd first go for if it were up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgs.6103 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 Condi Daredevils, 3 S/D Thieves, 3 Rifle Deadeyes, 1 Ninja Nurse.Kill the enemy Scrapper first. Then pick-off anyone one-by-one. Take your time. You will eventually win either by sheer cheese or enemy tilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L A T I O N.8923 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 On na?Dead you'll get overrun with 40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @borgs.6103 said:3 Condi Daredevils, 3 S/D Thieves, 3 Rifle Deadeyes, 1 Ninja Nurse.Kill the enemy Scrapper first. Then pick-off anyone one-by-one. Take your time. You will eventually win either by sheer cheese or enemy tilt.In an open field and assuming all the Thieves are relatively competent, I could actually see something like this working. But against a decent group with enough terrain to maneuver I doubt if the Thief squad could down even one.Some comps like this one can have an extreme level of efficiency in the right situations but will always fall short of meta squads due to their versatility.I think a full squad of Engineer's could also be pretty nasty since you can pretty much create a budget version of any of the meta builds with Engi. Have a few support Scrappers, some sword Holos, maybe a few Static Discharge Holo's, a few core condi Engi's with Elixir X and I doubt if anything could provide enough Stability to withstand the amount of CC that would come from that group. Would also have some really strong peel potential, extremely high melee range burst and could counter Stealthed groups with Lock On and Detection Pulse.It's fun to conjure up crazy comps like this but unfortunately most people are too concerned with what others will think of them to try anything new. I'd love to see some people doing a weird comp like this even if at times they get completely obliterated. It'd just be fun if more people had the guts to do something different for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:2 support Firebrand, 3 condition Scourge, 1 power GS Reaper, 1 Prot Holo, 1 boon share and Focus Chrono, 1 support Scrapper and 1 GS + Axe/Shield Berserker.Enough healing support to maintain each other in a ball + high Protection. Lots of boon rip/corrupt. Reaper, Berserker and Holo extremely deadly in mid-range/melee fights. Scourges provide enough pressure to pirate ship and kite if needed + high mid-range/melee CC from various sources. Chrono and Reaper capable of pulling in small groups of players for lock downs and bombs.I don't GvG so I could see there being far better options than this, but this is what I'd first go for if it were up to me.IMO that's too many necros. Most smaller guild havoc teams I see run heavy support to the point where if they loose just 1 player - often the power scourge - they loose like 90% of their dps. So in your group we would probably be talking 3 firebrands and 2 support scrappers, with 2 less necros.The only exception I could imagine is if 2 of of the scourges run barrier support specs, which would make the group pretty much immortal if they also can coordinate downed pulls good (so even if you manage to pull out and down someone, they just pull them back in under the umbrella of perma blocks and heals). it doesnt work so well in zerg vs zerg, but most of the targets this havoc group will face wont be a zerg, but rather small groups of randoms that they just need to down one by one. They often wont be able to coordinate bombs on downed anyway, but will have the solo damage to kill things before the havoc arrive to res. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @"sile.1604" said:Basicly what the title says? What would you ideally run for a 10 man havoc/guild squad in this meta? The goal is to be able to fight other groups of same or larger size (blob busting unorganised groups), maybe do some GvGs.wet noodle groupminstrelfb scrap = 4zerkscourge = 2spell = 1weaver = 1rev = 2easy modeYou can make a team of 50/50 mele range or 40/60 or 60/40 provided that 40% is always heals. and sometimes - when you get good players with you - as long as you can wing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @Dawdler.8521 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:2 support Firebrand, 3 condition Scourge, 1 power GS Reaper, 1 Prot Holo, 1 boon share and Focus Chrono, 1 support Scrapper and 1 GS + Axe/Shield Berserker.Enough healing support to maintain each other in a ball + high Protection. Lots of boon rip/corrupt. Reaper, Berserker and Holo extremely deadly in mid-range/melee fights. Scourges provide enough pressure to pirate ship and kite if needed + high mid-range/melee CC from various sources. Chrono and Reaper capable of pulling in small groups of players for lock downs and bombs.I don't GvG so I could see there being far better options than this, but this is what I'd first go for if it were up to me.IMO that's too many necros. Most smaller guild havoc teams I see run heavy support to the point where if they loose just 1 player - often the power scourge - they loose like 90% of their dps. So in your group we would probably be talking 3 firebrands and 2 support scrappers, with 2 less necros.The only exception I could imagine is if 2 of of the scourges run barrier support specs, which would make the group pretty much immortal if they also can coordinate downed pulls good (so even if you manage to pull out and down someone, they just pull them back in under the umbrella of perma blocks and heals). it doesnt work so well in zerg vs zerg, but most of the targets this havoc group will face wont be a zerg, but rather small groups of randoms that they just need to down one by one. They often wont be able to coordinate bombs on downed anyway, but will have the solo damage to kill things before the havoc arrive to res.Fair observation. I wasn't certain of how much support was necessary, I just know from my own experience with roaming and clouding that sustain comps tend to either stalemate or eventually get overwhelmed, which is why I was going for a more offensive comp. Having support is a must, no doubt, but I think being able to blast through pugs as quickly as possible is a good idea in WvW's current state. It's so easy to get overwhelmed due to mounts that it's unlikely you'll sustain longer than 10 minutes in an open field unless you're mowing people down as quickly as they arrive.I think replacing a Scourge with another Firebrand or some other form of support could be wise so I agree with you there, or at minimum making one of the Scourges a Blood Magic Barrier share as you'd said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:@Dawdler.8521 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:2 support Firebrand, 3 condition Scourge, 1 power GS Reaper, 1 Prot Holo, 1 boon share and Focus Chrono, 1 support Scrapper and 1 GS + Axe/Shield Berserker.Enough healing support to maintain each other in a ball + high Protection. Lots of boon rip/corrupt. Reaper, Berserker and Holo extremely deadly in mid-range/melee fights. Scourges provide enough pressure to pirate ship and kite if needed + high mid-range/melee CC from various sources. Chrono and Reaper capable of pulling in small groups of players for lock downs and bombs.I don't GvG so I could see there being far better options than this, but this is what I'd first go for if it were up to me.IMO that's too many necros. Most smaller guild havoc teams I see run heavy support to the point where if they loose just 1 player - often the power scourge - they loose like 90% of their dps. So in your group we would probably be talking 3 firebrands and 2 support scrappers, with 2 less necros.The only exception I could imagine is if 2 of of the scourges run barrier support specs, which would make the group pretty much immortal if they also can coordinate downed pulls good (so even if you manage to pull out and down someone, they just pull them back in under the umbrella of perma blocks and heals). it doesnt work so well in zerg vs zerg, but most of the targets this havoc group will face wont be a zerg, but rather small groups of randoms that they just need to down one by one. They often wont be able to coordinate bombs on downed anyway, but will have the solo damage to kill things before the havoc arrive to res.Fair observation. I wasn't certain of how much support was necessary, I just know from my own experience with roaming and clouding that sustain comps tend to either stalemate or eventually get overwhelmed, which is why I was going for a more offensive comp. Having support is a must, no doubt, but I think being able to blast through pugs as quickly as possible is a good idea in WvW's current state. It's so easy to get overwhelmed due to mounts that it's unlikely you'll sustain longer than 10 minutes in an open field unless you're mowing people down as quickly as they arrive.I think replacing a Scourge with another Firebrand or some other form of support could be wise so I agree with you there, or at minimum making one of the Scourges a Blood Magic Barrier share as you'd said.you are not wrong. if ur comp are experienced players. you can go 30/703 minstrel fb, and your 7 nasty damagers. 3 good minstrel monks is hard to beat. even a group of 10 will have a hard time beating 3 good guardians.another way to do it. is those 3 minstrel fb is teamed up with 7 selfish damage builds. being selfish, it is self sustaining already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @Sovereign.1093 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:@Dawdler.8521 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:2 support Firebrand, 3 condition Scourge, 1 power GS Reaper, 1 Prot Holo, 1 boon share and Focus Chrono, 1 support Scrapper and 1 GS + Axe/Shield Berserker.Enough healing support to maintain each other in a ball + high Protection. Lots of boon rip/corrupt. Reaper, Berserker and Holo extremely deadly in mid-range/melee fights. Scourges provide enough pressure to pirate ship and kite if needed + high mid-range/melee CC from various sources. Chrono and Reaper capable of pulling in small groups of players for lock downs and bombs.I don't GvG so I could see there being far better options than this, but this is what I'd first go for if it were up to me.IMO that's too many necros. Most smaller guild havoc teams I see run heavy support to the point where if they loose just 1 player - often the power scourge - they loose like 90% of their dps. So in your group we would probably be talking 3 firebrands and 2 support scrappers, with 2 less necros.The only exception I could imagine is if 2 of of the scourges run barrier support specs, which would make the group pretty much immortal if they also can coordinate downed pulls good (so even if you manage to pull out and down someone, they just pull them back in under the umbrella of perma blocks and heals). it doesnt work so well in zerg vs zerg, but most of the targets this havoc group will face wont be a zerg, but rather small groups of randoms that they just need to down one by one. They often wont be able to coordinate bombs on downed anyway, but will have the solo damage to kill things before the havoc arrive to res.Fair observation. I wasn't certain of how much support was necessary, I just know from my own experience with roaming and clouding that sustain comps tend to either stalemate or eventually get overwhelmed, which is why I was going for a more offensive comp. Having support is a must, no doubt, but I think being able to blast through pugs as quickly as possible is a good idea in WvW's current state. It's so easy to get overwhelmed due to mounts that it's unlikely you'll sustain longer than 10 minutes in an open field unless you're mowing people down as quickly as they arrive.I think replacing a Scourge with another Firebrand or some other form of support could be wise so I agree with you there, or at minimum making one of the Scourges a Blood Magic Barrier share as you'd said.you are not wrong. if ur comp are experienced players. you can go 30/703 minstrel fb, and your 7 nasty damagers. 3 good minstrel monks is hard to beat. even a group of 10 will have a hard time beating 3 good guardians.another way to do it. is those 3 minstrel fb is teamed up with 7 selfish damage builds. being selfish, it is self sustaining already.For enemies that's still 7 targets with only 3 healers... and if one of those targets drop, chances are high 1-2 more will be collateral damage. That's why the heavy groups are even nastier against a more experienced counter force - they literally got 2-3 pocket healers for every dps. That single dps is usually enough to kill another random, while he in turn is almost unkillable and cannot be CCd. And if you try to focus the 2-3 healers, well... not exactly easy to down either. And it usually means you are wide open to their dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 ideal...havocThese don't go together in modern WvW since the implementation of mounts, as there's literally no point in playing with anything less than a blob because the blob will be there to defend anything you try and hit with 10.And you don't fight anything larger than maybe 15 pugs because spec mechanics right now count for significantly more than coordination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @Dawdler.8521 said:@Sovereign.1093 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:@Dawdler.8521 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:2 support Firebrand, 3 condition Scourge, 1 power GS Reaper, 1 Prot Holo, 1 boon share and Focus Chrono, 1 support Scrapper and 1 GS + Axe/Shield Berserker.Enough healing support to maintain each other in a ball + high Protection. Lots of boon rip/corrupt. Reaper, Berserker and Holo extremely deadly in mid-range/melee fights. Scourges provide enough pressure to pirate ship and kite if needed + high mid-range/melee CC from various sources. Chrono and Reaper capable of pulling in small groups of players for lock downs and bombs.I don't GvG so I could see there being far better options than this, but this is what I'd first go for if it were up to me.IMO that's too many necros. Most smaller guild havoc teams I see run heavy support to the point where if they loose just 1 player - often the power scourge - they loose like 90% of their dps. So in your group we would probably be talking 3 firebrands and 2 support scrappers, with 2 less necros.The only exception I could imagine is if 2 of of the scourges run barrier support specs, which would make the group pretty much immortal if they also can coordinate downed pulls good (so even if you manage to pull out and down someone, they just pull them back in under the umbrella of perma blocks and heals). it doesnt work so well in zerg vs zerg, but most of the targets this havoc group will face wont be a zerg, but rather small groups of randoms that they just need to down one by one. They often wont be able to coordinate bombs on downed anyway, but will have the solo damage to kill things before the havoc arrive to res.Fair observation. I wasn't certain of how much support was necessary, I just know from my own experience with roaming and clouding that sustain comps tend to either stalemate or eventually get overwhelmed, which is why I was going for a more offensive comp. Having support is a must, no doubt, but I think being able to blast through pugs as quickly as possible is a good idea in WvW's current state. It's so easy to get overwhelmed due to mounts that it's unlikely you'll sustain longer than 10 minutes in an open field unless you're mowing people down as quickly as they arrive.I think replacing a Scourge with another Firebrand or some other form of support could be wise so I agree with you there, or at minimum making one of the Scourges a Blood Magic Barrier share as you'd said.you are not wrong. if ur comp are experienced players. you can go 30/703 minstrel fb, and your 7 nasty damagers. 3 good minstrel monks is hard to beat. even a group of 10 will have a hard time beating 3 good guardians.another way to do it. is those 3 minstrel fb is teamed up with 7 selfish damage builds. being selfish, it is self sustaining already.For enemies that's still 7 targets with only 3 healers... and if one of those targets drop, chances are high 1-2 more will be collateral damage. That's why the heavy groups are even nastier against a more experienced counter force - they literally got 2-3 pocket healers for every dps. That single dps is usually enough to kill another random, while he in turn is almost unkillable and cannot be CCd. And if you try to focus the 2-3 healers, well... not exactly easy to down either. And it usually means you are wide open to their dps.In my experience, clouds farm those groups. My experience may not be the standard but my point is that from observation, comps with higher sustain have lower success. They can't kill anything before they get overwhelmed and all they end up doing is backpedaling until they can't heal anymore. At least with a group that has a bit higher damage they can wipe out any targets called almost immediately. I don't believe the comp I've suggested is the absolute best by any means, I'm sure there would be better ways to go about a more offensive one, but I still feel it would be better than having more support.My idea of "success" is being able to full wipe equal or larger numbers, or farm a cloud until enough have given up that you can leave or full wipe the remainder. Sustaining forever and boring people until they leave or sustaining until you can get to a tower isn't a win in my book. And that's usually all a tankier comp can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 @Dawdler.8521 said:@Sovereign.1093 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:@Dawdler.8521 said:@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:2 support Firebrand, 3 condition Scourge, 1 power GS Reaper, 1 Prot Holo, 1 boon share and Focus Chrono, 1 support Scrapper and 1 GS + Axe/Shield Berserker.Enough healing support to maintain each other in a ball + high Protection. Lots of boon rip/corrupt. Reaper, Berserker and Holo extremely deadly in mid-range/melee fights. Scourges provide enough pressure to pirate ship and kite if needed + high mid-range/melee CC from various sources. Chrono and Reaper capable of pulling in small groups of players for lock downs and bombs.I don't GvG so I could see there being far better options than this, but this is what I'd first go for if it were up to me.IMO that's too many necros. Most smaller guild havoc teams I see run heavy support to the point where if they loose just 1 player - often the power scourge - they loose like 90% of their dps. So in your group we would probably be talking 3 firebrands and 2 support scrappers, with 2 less necros.The only exception I could imagine is if 2 of of the scourges run barrier support specs, which would make the group pretty much immortal if they also can coordinate downed pulls good (so even if you manage to pull out and down someone, they just pull them back in under the umbrella of perma blocks and heals). it doesnt work so well in zerg vs zerg, but most of the targets this havoc group will face wont be a zerg, but rather small groups of randoms that they just need to down one by one. They often wont be able to coordinate bombs on downed anyway, but will have the solo damage to kill things before the havoc arrive to res.Fair observation. I wasn't certain of how much support was necessary, I just know from my own experience with roaming and clouding that sustain comps tend to either stalemate or eventually get overwhelmed, which is why I was going for a more offensive comp. Having support is a must, no doubt, but I think being able to blast through pugs as quickly as possible is a good idea in WvW's current state. It's so easy to get overwhelmed due to mounts that it's unlikely you'll sustain longer than 10 minutes in an open field unless you're mowing people down as quickly as they arrive.I think replacing a Scourge with another Firebrand or some other form of support could be wise so I agree with you there, or at minimum making one of the Scourges a Blood Magic Barrier share as you'd said.you are not wrong. if ur comp are experienced players. you can go 30/703 minstrel fb, and your 7 nasty damagers. 3 good minstrel monks is hard to beat. even a group of 10 will have a hard time beating 3 good guardians.another way to do it. is those 3 minstrel fb is teamed up with 7 selfish damage builds. being selfish, it is self sustaining already.For enemies that's still 7 targets with only 3 healers... and if one of those targets drop, chances are high 1-2 more will be collateral damage. That's why the heavy groups are even nastier against a more experienced counter force - they literally got 2-3 pocket healers for every dps. That single dps is usually enough to kill another random, while he in turn is almost unkillable and cannot be CCd. And if you try to focus the 2-3 healers, well... not exactly easy to down either. And it usually means you are wide open to their dps.7 selfish builds who know how to dodge, cc, blast, and selfish sustain will not be an easy kill.of course if you stand and let them hit you, you die >.< heheexamples would be spell breakers, soul beasts holos, mirages, revenants, daredevils. these are beasts in self sustain and can take many if the player is good. 1 v x selfish classes and with their own pocket healers can make you pull your hair.realistic of course, the fights must be. enemies bad and not coordinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Funny about theres guys is that they "claim" that they fight outnumbered when it's mostly them farming pigs until they do get over run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 How many commenters have actually played in a 10-15 guild now, for comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 @LetoII.3782 said:How many commenters have actually played in a 10-15 guild now, for comparison3-7 here. Might max our guild out on an evening when everyone is on that plays and hit 10. But that is less often than a blue moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 @LetoII.3782 said:How many commenters have actually played in a 10-15 guild now, for comparisonMax for me is 5, however recently joined a guild thats building their WvW army so that may change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 @LetoII.3782 said:How many commenters have actually played in a 10-15 guild now, for comparisonive played in 10 to 15. and i lead a group of 5 to 10.its not easy. my guys get demoralized quick. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 You should probably go sustain/support heavy with at least 2-3 support per party, assuming you are playing stacked up following a commander, and not looking for more of a roaming playstyle. With this many supports you should be able to fight larger, less skilled groups without much trouble, but your dps need to be performing well or you wont kill anything. Coordination, and especially player skill is more important in smaller groups so its best to use what your players are good at.I used to play in 10-15 man squads where 2-4 dps were enough to kill larger, less coordinated groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God.2708 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 10 Man party1 Mesmer - Mass Invis, Portal, IoL. Ideally a power mirage to add some supplementary burst.2 Standards FBs - Stab, quickness, MI1 Immob Support Tempest - 10 Man cleanses, strong passive heals, overpowered soft CC3 Power Glass Scourges - 10 Target bombs, extra cleanses, boon strip, and single target spike1 Herald - 10 man fury and pre-fight might, RotGD, AoE Cleave for downs1 Renegade - 10 man Alacrity, RotGD1 Spellbreaker - Tactics DPS. Job is to support tempest at cleansing and get a good winds off then cleave/run.Could possibly drop a scourge for a holo or berserker, but meh. Against clouds you manuever into chokes and counter bomb, then spike. Abuse RotGD and let scourges do the work.Against very large clouds you mass invis and run the fuck away.Same sized groups you have a very strong initial bomb, and all necessary boons to get it off. Don't suck.Larger coordinated groups you have enough of a bomb to downstate and finish 5+ players, but you have to do it from surprise and GTFO because 10 man is never big enough to tank a coordinated bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 no glass holo mentions? for shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 I dont play havoc per-say, but I run in 12-15 man with my guild and we defeat other guild groups up to 40 players.You need at least 1 or 2 spellbreakers, 2 Firebrands, 2 scrappers a Fulll Healbot Ele, some scourges for corrupts and then the remainder being high damage, either Ranged or melle.You need the warriors for bubbles, and you need the high burst damage to kill enemies in those bubbles. Scourges are for general corrupting after the bubble, for barriers, pressure and area denial. Full heal bot ele is needed for the sustain. Realistically, you will have people getting caught in enemy bubbles or getting stripped of boons, and the healer needs to provide raw heals to keep people alive long enough to recast boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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