Foot in the Grave

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

Just a buff idea:

now Foot in the Grave grants a pathetic 1stack of Stability for 3s when entering shroud

what if it also reduced shroud cooldown by 3s?

It of course would make it a strong trait but it wouldnt make necro specs op because they have to make a choice between Foot in the Grave and major damage traits Dhuumfire and Death Perception

[Dadnir.5038]

I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?

In itself, Foot in the grave isn't a bad trait, it's just that it's not an attractive trait. I think it would be smarter to switch it with vital persistence to make it attractive.

[KrHome.1920]

We 've had this discussion a few times before.

Who knows what anet will do next (they usually change things nobody asked for), but it's extremely unlikely because anet is adjusting other sustain aspects of the class for a while now, which they would have to revert.

FitG is a problematic gm trait. It feels weak sometimes but situationally it's extremely strong and a game changer (on core power builds I would even call it mandatory). It's only overshadowed by death perception as this trait is a huge damage boost and therefor favorable for most players.

Dhuumfire is trash. This trait could have the potential to make condi reaper viable without breaking scourge and core if it would deal an additional damaging condition (e.g. torment (poison might be too much regarding the scourge area coverage)). It's a huge missed opportunity.

I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?Fun fact: they removed it because of scourge and one balance patch later they began trait splitting for scourge and other necro specs (path of corruption). I remember that slap in the face feeling.

[Dadnir.5038]

@KrHome.1920 said:

I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?Fun fact: they removed it because of scourge and one balance patch later they began trait splitting for scourge and other necro specs (path of corruption). I remember that slap in the face feeling.

Well, it's not the first slap in the face that ANet gave us and I know it's not the last either.

[Anchoku.8142]

FitG is only available when the shroud transform is activated so it cannot be used independently. That requirement ties all sorts of other things to its use making it a bit complicated.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?

In itself, Foot in the grave isn't a bad trait, it's just that it's not an attractive trait. I think it would be smarter to switch it with vital persistence to make it attractive.

But its still not really that attractive imo when you swap them all you have done is made Vital persistence less attractive. Im also not sure the current version of VP is worthy of a grandmaster slot.FitG is just outdated and could really use a direct buff in terms of power

I would suggest adding more utility even if the activation of that utility requires a trade on the necormancers part as other skills often do. Perhaps the bonus effect only triggers if the trait actually breaks a stun.

Side note i dont consider dhuumfire all that good either personally its decent with scourge, modest with reaper, and very underwhelming with core. To be frank all reaper and core should also have their own versions of how this trait functions imo with reaper keeping the current version and core getting a version that inflicts more than 1 stack per life blast.

[Dadnir.5038]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?

In itself,

Foot in the grave

isn't a bad trait, it's just that it's not an attractive trait. I think it would be smarter to switch it with

vital persistence

to make it attractive.

But its still not really that attractive imo when you swap them all you have done is made Vital persistence less attractive. Im also not sure the current version of VP is worthy of a grandmaster slot.FitG is just outdated and could really use a direct buff in terms of power

I would suggest adding more utility even if the activation of that utility requires a trade on the necormancers part as other skills often do. Perhaps the bonus effect only triggers if the trait actually breaks a stun.

Side note i dont consider dhuumfire all that good either personally its decent with scourge, modest with reaper, and very underwhelming with core. To be frank all reaper and core should also have their own versions of how this trait functions imo with reaper keeping the current version and core getting a version that inflicts more than 1 stack per life blast.

Well, personally I think that:

• FitG: it's a good trait but not attractive when the game revolve mainly around the idea of dealing damage.
• Dhuumfire: I think it should be reworked into something totally different but some player will argue that it is needed in order to open shroud to condi build.
• Deathly perception: This trait give way to much precision and ferocity.

There is no balance between the 3 traits, it's to the point that there is no reason to take anything else than DP and when DP wasn't OP, there were no reason to take anything else than dhuumfire.

Like I said, I wouldn't change FitG, at best I'd switch it with VP. I'd change DP to go back to the 50% crit chance in shroud (to support this change I'd make barbed precision, in curse, have 100% chance to inflict bleed on crit while in shroud) and change dhuumfire into a trait that grant dark aura when entering shroud and give ferocity when under the effect of an aura. This would reduce the difference between the 3 GM traits and even make a nice synergy between the necromancer and elementalist.

[KrHome.1920]

Nerfing death perception would nerf power reaper and put it back to 28k dps.

That 300 ferocity would have to be placed somewhere else.

The main reason for the rework away from pure precision to a mix of precision and damage was to bring power reaper to 30k dps with a series of additional damage multipliers: awaken the pain (+250 power), soul barbs (+10%), death perception (+300 ferocity), soul eater (+10%), cold shoulder (+15%) and...

...to make shoud rewarding (increase the dps when in shroud). Shroud was a dps loss before which was absurd.

[Dadnir.5038]

@KrHome.1920 said:Nerfing death perception would nerf power reaper and put it back to 28k dps.

That 300 ferocity would have to be placed somewhere else.

The main reason for the rework away from pure precision to a mix of precision and damage was to bring power reaper to 30k dps with a series of additional damage multipliers: awaken the pain (+250 power), soul barbs (+10%), death perception (+300 ferocity), soul eater (+10%), cold shoulder (+15%) and...

...to make shoud rewarding (increase the dps when in shroud). Shroud was a dps loss before which was absurd.

That's why I say to put the ferocity on a trait that would replace dhuumfire. 33% crit chance + 300 ferocity is over the top for a single trait even if you can only have it on a 50% uptime at best. Make it so that this ferocity is only achievable when the necromancer have a aura and in direct competition with the crit chance, so that he does have to rely on allies to reach reliably it's top dps.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?

In itself, Foot in the grave isn't a bad trait, it's just that it's not an attractive trait. I think it would be smarter to switch it with vital persistence to make it attractive.

Would it really matter if desert shroud had 3 seconds less cd?Not really.

Would it be a great choice for support scourge? - yesMight even be too op cause combined with harbingers shroudWould it be a good choice for dmg scourge? - maybe

but I think dhuumfire in pve and deaths perception in wvw would still be better.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Nerfing death perception would nerf power reaper and put it back to 28k dps.

That 300 ferocity would have to be placed somewhere else.

The main reason for the rework away from pure precision to a mix of precision and damage was to bring power reaper to 30k dps with a series of additional damage multipliers: awaken the pain (+250 power), soul barbs (+10%), death perception (+300 ferocity), soul eater (+10%), cold shoulder (+15%) and...

...to make shoud rewarding (increase the dps when in shroud). Shroud was a dps loss before which was absurd.

That's why I say to put the ferocity on a trait that would replace

dhuumfire

. 33% crit chance + 300 ferocity is over the top for a single trait even if you can only have it on a 50% uptime at best. Make it so that this ferocity is only achievable when the necromancer have a aura and in direct competition with the crit chance, so that he does have to rely on allies to reach reliably it's top dps.

Sorry, but in my opinion, that would be really really bad design, that no other class has.

• well perfect for necro I guess, cause necro can't have nice things.

If you look at it this way:Those raw stats are insane yes.

But what about pve dps? - we have all those stats on necro and necro is still at the lower end of the dps table

What about pvp modes? - in almost every necro build, you need to get defensive stats (Vita/thoughness) to get any defenses, that other classes get for free with utility skills and weapon skills (blocks, evades, invulns)

So in my opinion, these raw stats traits are justified on necro.

Unless the rework the necromancer class as a whole (which will never gonna happen), or give necro like 30% more dmg on all skills, then they could change those traits into something else.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Nerfing death perception would nerf power reaper and put it back to 28k dps.

That 300 ferocity would have to be placed somewhere else.

The main reason for the rework away from pure precision to a mix of precision and damage was to bring power reaper to 30k dps with a series of additional damage multipliers: awaken the pain (+250 power), soul barbs (+10%), death perception (+300 ferocity), soul eater (+10%), cold shoulder (+15%) and...

...to make shoud rewarding (increase the dps when in shroud). Shroud was a dps loss before which was absurd.

That's why I say to put the ferocity on a trait that would replace

dhuumfire

. 33% crit chance + 300 ferocity is over the top for a single trait even if you can only have it on a 50% uptime at best. Make it so that this ferocity is only achievable when the necromancer have a aura and in direct competition with the crit chance, so that he does have to rely on allies to reach reliably it's top dps.

For one necromancers already have to do this both in pvp and pve so there is no reason try and implement it again through a second pointless feature.Reapers and scourges depend very much on alacrity and quickness like most other classes to achive their top dps in end game and in pvp as a necromancer your potential depends on your team to support/ peel for you or the enemy team being oblivious to you.

This also defeats the whole purpose of the trait rework that happened some months ago that lowered the overly insane amount of crit chance DP had which was kind of a waste. Overall DP is in its best form that its ever been in and should not be changed. The other traits should be changed to match its strength instead of cutting it down back to its outdated version. The crit boost is moderate but reasonable and still feels like a power up for when shroud is activated.I also dont like this idea because you are splitting two stats that work well together between 2 traits which makes no sense while all other professions off the top of my head keep crit chance + ferocity boost under the same traits and not two different ones where they cant take both at the same time overall your idea is lowering the effectiveness of both traits for the sake of making an outdated trait like Foot in the Grave look more appealing which is just bad design imo. Just update the outdated trait to be more competitive and tempting to take.

As for condi builds make the curses (Barbed Precision) crit on bleed chance 100% anyways, increase its bleed duration to maybe 4 seconds, then just put a short icd on it perhaps 1 second to keep it under control which makes the trait more consistent by lowering its rng factor by 1 mechanic instead of it currently hinging on 2 rng mechanics (your crit chance + another % chance after that to inflict bleed) The game could use less rng across the board.And lets be real there is no way they wouldn't put icd on it if it had 100% chance to activate on crits knowing you could easily cap your crit chance on necro.

If you really want to help condi builds on other forms of shroud necormancers then we would look at giving Dhumfire split boost for core / reaper and leaving it as is on scourge

• Core skill one inflicts 1 stack of burning for a moderate duration 3-4s + 1 stack for additional conditions on the target (max 5) (very short duration1-2s)
• Reaper skill one inflicts 1 stack of burning for a moderate duration 3-4s and slightly increases skill one's attack range (short wave of green fire with each swing)
• Scourge (stays as is)

[ZDragon.3046]

I think overall the best solution for foot in the grave is just adding more utility to it. Anet is not going to give pulsing stab so why not go another route.

Foot in the graveBreak stun on shroud entry (still standard)Gain 1 stack of stab on entry 3s

New AdditionsWhen Breaking a stun by entering shroud gain additional boons while inflicting hindering conditions on nearby foes for a short duration.

• Additional boons: 1 more stack of Stab, Retaliation, Vigor, Resistance (5s of each)
• Slows (3s) and Blinds (5s) foes

I think personally the above could provide enough additional utility to the trait to make it proper for a defensive/ utility based shroud boost trait making it a more tempting trait to take when more defense or utility is needed. I think that if it was more like the suggestion above it would be a good bit closer to being on par with DP and and possibly a better option than Dhuumfire on anything thats not scourge.

Right now i think the additional boons and blind/slow would be a good start. It brings a few rare boons in light usage to the necromancer as well as just a slight bit of sustain through conditional pressure using more effective conditions thats not just more weakness splatter. I didnt want to suggest some boons necro already has too much off like might, swiftness, Considering the traits defensive nature i also didn't want to suggest offensive boons like fury or quickness. I also felt like a boon such as aegis would be a bit off fitting for the overall look of the trait line (as a whole its not THAT defensive) and should ideally be aimed more twoard the utility side in terms of effectiveness.

Like many other necromancer tools its biggest reward only comes after the necromancer is already getting hit or is already cc'ed in some way rather than something thats gained before hand. Thus ideally it wont be something that always triggers ever 10 seconds on shroud use with the idea of shroud flashing. It rewards quick reaction time and quicker cleaver thinking (baiting someone into using a cc on you letting that spell breaker pull you with his magebane for example) vs just Press f1 for reward at any given time.

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

@Dadnir.5038 said:I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?

In itself, Foot in the grave isn't a bad trait, it's just that it's not an attractive trait. I think it would be smarter to switch it with vital persistence to make it attractive.

it was removed because of scourge despite a simple rename solution was there:back then it reduced shroud cooldown by 33% (which was broken on scourge only)

if they just worded it differently to reduce cd by 3s we would still have this trait

[KrHome.1920]

@Dadnir.5038 said:That's why I say to put the ferocity on a trait that would replace dhuumfire.Soul reaping is the class mechanic traitline (= should be useful for any build) and should offer options for sustain (FitG), direct damage (death perception) and condi damage (dhuumfire). ANet should not touch this mechanic as it's a good basis for balancing. The reaper and scourge spec traitlines follow the same logic. Every trait category (adept, master, grand master) focuses more or less on these three options.

The remaining traitlines are for further specialisation, like curses for conditions and and spite for direct damage (while any of these also offer options for corruptions as another class mechanic). Blood magic is for support and death magic is for self sustain.

If you mess that up you are going to have a hard time blancing specific mechanics as you are always touching other mechanics too.

[Anchoku.8142]

With the announcement that there will be separate PvE and PvP/WvW balance teams, expect more hard splits.

[killfil.3472]

Couldn't it be made to pulse a 3 second stability every 3 seconds..?That would make it so much more attractive as a grandmaster trait.

[WilnerGW.3275]

If Foot in the Grave statys in the state it is, I think its more worthy to use Death Perception even on the Condi Core Necro build, right?

I use Carrion amulet, so i have a decent Power damage. I think the %crit chance plus the Ferocity would be so much more useful than this pathetic 3s os stab.

What you guys think?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@WilnerGW.3275 said:If Foot in the Grave statys in the state it is, I think its more worthy to use Death Perception even on the Condi Core Necro build, right?

I use Carrion amulet, so i have a decent Power damage. I think the %crit chance plus the Ferocity would be so much more useful than this pathetic 3s os stab.

What you guys think?

I think you are so close to getting it, but aren't there. The issue is that it's not worth using Foot in the Grave, unlike its competitors. The other two are fine, Foot in the Grave needs a buff to be competitive.

[Mikhael.2391]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@WilnerGW.3275 said:If Foot in the Grave statys in the state it is, I think its more worthy to use Death Perception even on the Condi Core Necro build, right?

I use Carrion amulet, so i have a decent Power damage. I think the %crit chance plus the Ferocity would be so much more useful than this pathetic 3s os stab.

What you guys think?

I think you are so close to getting it, but aren't there. The issue is that it's not worth using Foot in the Grave, unlike its competitors. The other two are fine, Foot in the Grave needs a buff to be competitive.

Maybe make it pulse stability and blind around 400uni for 5s.

[Anchoku.8142]

FitG was developed for core before PoF. Originally, Necro was not supposed to have any stability but power creep way back then kind of made Necro's QQ so the profession got stab.

Now, power creep has left FitG behind, again. Thank you, Arenanet, for keeping your balance teams busy.

Jusy make it proc 1 second of AoE Fear on top of Stability and it should be good for another year.

[Nimon.7840]

@Anchoku.8142 said:FitG was developed for core before PoF. Originally, Necro was not supposed to have any stability but power creep way back then kind of made Necro's QQ so the profession got stab.

Now, power creep has left FitG behind, again. Thank you, Arenanet, for keeping your balance teams busy.

Jusy make it proc 1 second of AoE Fear on top of Stability and it should be good for another year.

This would be kinda interesting:Gain stab when you enter shroud or when you inflict fear on an enemy (only make it to give 1 stack of stab even if you hit 5 targets with the fear. Else it will be too strong)

[KrHome.1920]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:FitG was developed for core before PoF. Originally, Necro was not supposed to have any stability but power creep way back then kind of made Necro's QQ so the profession got stab.

Now, power creep has left FitG behind, again. Thank you, Arenanet, for keeping your balance teams busy.

Jusy make it proc 1 second of AoE Fear on top of Stability and it should be good for another year.That's a free "terrify" on every shroud entering. Too strong as a reaper burst setup in a time where "onslaught" and "dread" exist.

Stunbreak on shroud entering, gain stability, fear for 1s (which means: apply chill: +10% damage) and deal another +33% damage witch your quickness soul spiral.

Yeah why not.. lol

(edit: added illustration)

[Shroud.2307]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:FitG was developed for core before PoF. Originally, Necro was not supposed to have any stability but power creep way back then kind of made Necro's QQ so the profession got stab.

Now, power creep has left FitG behind, again. Thank you, Arenanet, for keeping your balance teams busy.

Jusy make it proc 1 second of AoE Fear on top of Stability and it should be good for another year.That's a free "terrify" on every shroud entering. Too strong as a reaper burst setup in a time where "onslaught" and "dread" exist.

Stunbreak on shroud entering, gain stability, fear for 1s (which means: apply chill: +10% damage) and deal another +33% damage witch your quickness soul spiral.

Yeah why not.. lol

(edit: added illustration)

How about this:

Gain stability and break stuns when you enter shroud. Gain Stability again and gain Super Speed when exiting Shroud.Stability on enter: 3sStability on exit: 6sSuper Speed on exit: 3s

[KrHome.1920]

3s superspeed on exit could be an interesting option. It would fit the utility/defensive nature of the trait and defnitely add some value.

An alternative could be a blind aoe on entering or exiting.