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Couldn't Aurene create more scions to replace the other Elder Dragons?


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Hi Daniel! That's a great question. Maybe she needs to reach maturity before she can start laying. The time taken to do so may be thousands of years.

Perhaps part of this story is the idea that the dragons are searching for an evolutionary step that will take them from parthenogenesis to a form of reproduction akin to that with which we are familiar: matings between male and female in the bonds of love.

Aurene may be that next step. Remember, she's a hybrid.

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@Stephen.6312 said:Hi Daniel! That's a great question. Maybe she needs to reach maturity before she can start laying. The time taken to do so may be thousands of years.

Perhaps part of this story is the idea that the dragons are searching for an evolutionary step that will take them fr

She currently exceeds her mother in size. It is possible reproduction maturity is somehow separate from the rest of physical maturity but yeah.

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She's three.

But a bit more seriously: we do not know what prerequisites exist for "high dragon" reproduction. Similarly, Glint's eggs were in hibernation for centuries before they hatched, and we're rather on the clock for fixing things.

Episodes 5 and 6 also made it a bit ambiguous as to whether a crystal dragon could even properly replace the other Elder Dragons, since there were plans made for Aurene to replace Kralkatorrik in the first place, despite evidence suggesting the original plan was for Aurene to replace Mordremoth (and Vlast to replace Zhaitan) based on the nursery cities' locations.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:She currently exceeds her mother in size. It is possible reproduction maturity is somehow separate from the rest of physical maturity but yeah.Size != reproductive growth

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:She's three.

But a bit more seriously: we do not know what prerequisites exist for "high dragon" reproduction. Similarly, Glint's eggs were in hibernation for centuries before they hatched, and we're rather on the clock for fixing things.

Episodes 5 and 6 also made it a bit ambiguous as to whether a crystal dragon could even properly replace the other Elder Dragons, since there were plans made for Aurene to replace Kralkatorrik in the first place, despite evidence suggesting the original plan was for Aurene to replace Mordremoth (and Vlast to replace Zhaitan) based on the nursery cities' locations.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:She currently exceeds her mother in size. It is possible reproduction maturity is somehow separate from the rest of physical maturity but yeah.Size != reproductive growth

Well yes. And as a 3 year old is she is around or past sexual maturity for most reptiles. Not to mention becoming an Elder Dragon is more than a size change. But yes, we would need more information.

Edit: I would say at the rate we are going her scion could replace Bubbles.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Well yes. And as a 3 year old is she is around or past sexual maturity for most reptiles.There's literally nothing to indicate this, and even if so, comparing to reptiles isn't really an adiquate thing to do because reptiles aren't breathing magical creatures.

Not to mention becoming an Elder Dragon is more than a size change.Sure, but nothing shows it changes maturity either.

Aurene may have grown every time she consumed a ton of magic, but that's just size increase and not really biological maturity. Though we don't even know how to establish biological maturity for high dragons since they're more magical than physical beings.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Well yes. And as a 3 year old is she is around or past sexual maturity for most reptiles.There's literally nothing to indicate this, and even if so, comparing to reptiles isn't really an adiquate thing to do because reptiles aren't breathing magical creatures.

I meant "as a 3 year old is she is around or past [the age at which at which most reptiles have reached sexual maturity]" because you felt pointing out she's three was necessary. Her suddenly having scions would only be shocking to us as humans.

Not to mention becoming an Elder Dragon is more than a size change.Sure, but nothing shows it changes maturity either.

Aurene may have grown every time she consumed a ton of magic, but that's just size increase and not really biological maturity. Though we don't even know how to establish biological maturity for high dragons since they're more magical than physical beings.

I would see from a physical standpoint why she might buck the trend for egg-laying creatures. Megafauna usually take longer. I don't see magic impeding this. She can already make crystals that move.

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@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I meant "as a 3 year old is she is around or past [the age at which at which most reptiles have reached sexual maturity]" because you felt pointing out she's three was necessary. Her suddenly having scions would only be shocking to us as humans.

Ignoring the fact that I was pretty clearly making a bit of a joke in the immediate followup, not all reptiles reach reproduction capabilities by three years of age. But those creatures that do tend to live in decades at tops, not millenniums. The longest living reptiles are turtles, averaging 150 year lifespans, and while the maturity rate varies between species of turtles, with some being as short as 10 years, sea turtles take 20-30 years, at least one species taking to 40 years to reach maturity (Galapagos tortoises).

Even then, using RL reptiles is pretty much moot since they're not magically infused creatures living several millennia long lives.

I would see from a physical standpoint why she might buck the trend for egg-laying creatures. Megafauna usually take longer. I don't see magic impeding this. She can already make crystals that move.

I feel that corrupting and creating scions are two vastly different things for Elder Dragons, otherwise we should be considering any minion to be a scion, or at least the "hand-forged" ones like The Shatterer and Wraithbringer. But we've not yet received any indication that they count as scions.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I meant "as a 3 year old is she is around or past [the age at which at which most reptiles have reached sexual maturity]" because you felt pointing out she's three was necessary. Her suddenly having scions would only be shocking to us as humans.

Ignoring the fact that I was pretty clearly making a bit of a joke in the immediate followup, not all reptiles reach reproduction capabilities by three years of age. But those creatures that do tend to live in
decades
at tops, not millenniums. The longest living reptiles are turtles, averaging 150 year lifespans, and while the maturity rate varies between species of turtles, with some being as short as 10 years, sea turtles take 20-30 years, at least one species taking to 40 years to reach maturity (Galapagos tortoises).

Even then, using RL reptiles is pretty much moot since they're not magically infused creatures living several millennia long lives.

I would see from a physical standpoint why she might buck the trend for egg-laying creatures. Megafauna usually take longer. I don't see magic impeding this. She can already make crystals that move.

I feel that corrupting and creating scions are two vastly different things for Elder Dragons, otherwise we should be considering any minion to be a scion, or at least the "hand-forged" ones like The Shatterer and Wraithbringer. But we've not yet received any indication that they count as scions.

Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

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@derd.6413 said:

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

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@Psientist.6437 said:

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

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@Palador.2170 said:

Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

Very true.

@derd.6413 said:1) that'd be creepy

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

Very true.

@derd.6413 said:1) that'd be creepy

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

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@derd.6413 said:

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

I was being facetious with the more efficient pregnancy and possibly marsupial comment. I think solving the stability of the All problem by making Aurene a mother would be creepy, lazy and unfulfilling.

We don't know what the requirements are for replacing an Elder dragon except that you need to be a dragon though. Is there any evidence that the job could be done by non Elder dragons without re-engineering the structure of the All? That is where I think the story is going. The current representation of the All with six balancing spheres is only one possible configuration for a stable All. Tyria's configuration is the unique result of its history and ecology that can be altered. I think the question is whether Aurene ends up being the solely responsible for the integrity of the All (which would be very dangerous since there is a single point of failure) or if the structure becomes more complex with more and smaller spheres representing things such as the races of Tyria, a stable but messy configuration.

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@derd.6413 said:

Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

Very true.

@derd.6413 said:1) that'd be creepy

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

They are already in that quadrant.

  • Aurene eats Joko at the end of Be My Guest. Taimi retches, Canach is "utterly disturbed," etc. Quaggans and several other races lay eggs. It is a step down in creepiness from eating humanoids.
  • The PC and now Gorrik have spent a good deal of time hatching and rapidly raising dragons. First Aurene and now the Skyscale.

@Psientist.6437 said:

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

I was being facetious with the more efficient pregnancy and possibly marsupial comment. I think solving the stability of the All problem by making Aurene a mother would be creepy, lazy and unfulfilling.

There is a difference between laying eggs and becoming a mother. Glint had two scions we know of. Through whatever circumstance Aurene could end up with 0. Or 1+ but too late, and the dragons had to be replaced/put into stasis/etc.

We don't know what the requirements are for replacing an Elder dragon except that you need to be a dragon though. Is there any evidence that the job could be done by non Elder dragons without re-engineering the structure of the All? That is where I think the story is going. The current representation of the All with six balancing spheres is only one possible configuration for a stable All. Tyria's configuration is the unique result of its history and ecology that can be altered. I think the question is whether Aurene ends up being the solely responsible for the integrity of the All (which would be very dangerous since there is a single point of failure) or if the structure becomes more complex with more and smaller spheres representing things such as the races of Tyria, a stable but messy configuration.

We don't know you have to be a dragon. We know you have to be able to absorb and release magic, which is why the Pale Tree is often mentioned.Regardless of configuration, it is implied Aurene cannot become solely responsible without going insane. Whether we get more dragons like Kuunavang, or more dragon champions to do it, we need to share the burden.

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@Psientist.6437 said:

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

I was being facetious with the more efficient pregnancy and possibly marsupial comment. I think solving the stability of the All problem by making Aurene a mother would be creepy, lazy and unfulfilling.

We don't know what the requirements are for replacing an Elder dragon except that you need to be a dragon though. Is there any evidence that the job could be done by non Elder dragons without re-engineering the structure of the All? That is where I think the story is going. The current representation of the All with six balancing spheres is only one possible configuration for a stable All. Tyria's configuration is the unique result of its history and ecology that can be altered. I think the question is whether Aurene ends up being the solely responsible for the integrity of the All (which would be very dangerous since there is a single point of failure) or if the structure becomes more complex with more and smaller spheres representing things such as the races of Tyria, a stable but messy configuration.

i was more insinuating that becoming an ED turns whatever it is that replaces one into a dragon but doesn't need to be a dragon prior to "ascending". (like a benevolent fafnir)

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@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

THIS right here is a very good question to ask. Even more so since we now know that there's some kind of higher power that created the Elder Dragons (as evident from Kralki saying, "mother" before he dieded) so once we sort things out with Bangar and his BRILLIANT plan for trying to tame Jormag (I mean WHY DIDN'T CAUDECUS THINK OF THAT, IT'S 100% GONNA WORK WITHOUT THINGS GOING SOUTH FASTER THEN WHEN THE PACT ATTACKED MORDY WITH AIRSHIPS!!! xD), we might have to look into what this means. :D

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I'm hoping will have to go out into the unknown to find more replacements.

Aurene can handle magics that Kralkatorrik could not, so it doesn't seem that she's limited to a certain type of magic, but I don't think Aurene can replace 3 elder Dragons worth of magic all on her own for too long.
So the Commander should start looking for candidates for more replacements sooner or later.

Likely Caithe will contact the commander on Aurene's behalf, explain that she under too much strain. Then send us back to our roots on a old style exploratory quest to find more replacements. Possibly other dragons or friendly entities and corresponding 'champions' to complete the cycle of magic sharing.

What could the replacements possibly be?

  • We do not know how elder dragons reproduce. We know that Glint had eggs, but we do not know how they were created. Did they gave bith to them? How did Kralkatorrik begot Glaust? Even if Aurene did create eggs, we would still need to go out there and infuse them with magic to make them hatch, like with Aurene's egg, so we'd probably need to find suitable leyline hubs and places of power for it. Maybe even go and find all the other four Bloodstones and crack them open. We have seen and the Maguuma bloodstone destroyed, and we more or less know the location of the ring of fire and shiverpeaks bloodstones, but we have no idea about the fourth bloodstone piece and the keystone.
  • The pale tree probably has her hands full managing the Sylvari connection to the Dream, so she's probably out of the question as a replacement candidate.
  • Mordrem Guard have reverted back to sylvari after Mordremoth died, and Malyck's tree was offcamera since it had to be cut from HoT. But it doesn't seem like her tree had conscience or a connection to the Dream. So maybe his tree survived and reverted from a blighting tree, and we can figure a way to fix her, give it conscience like we did with Mawdrew, and make Malyck her champion. And make them take care of Mordremoth's share of magic. There's room for a new map for it south of Tarir and east from Tangled Depths.
  • Tthe Djinn are also sharing magic too. But I do not know if it's just Adhashim's magic between each other only or with the world. A flame djinn was corrupted by Kralkatorrik after getting a boost from Balthazar, but we do not know why. It could just be all the extra power overpowering the djinn defenses, or because godly fire magic from Balthazar giving him an extra edge against a fire djinn, or maybe Djinn are actually some form of undead spirit imbued with elemental magic like their skull-like faces suggest, and Zhaitan's magic allowed Kralkatorrik to death-brand him. Could we have the entire djinn community act as a replacement for an elder dragon?
  • Cantha had countless Saltspray dragons that were corrupted by the Jade Wind, includding Kuunavang. The corruption began to revert after Abaddon was defeated, and most of the Jade Sea should be water again by now. Maybe one of the surviving Canthan dragons could help for that.
  • Orr had lots of undead dragons that were turned into dragon zombies by the Cataclysm, then risen by Zhaitan. Could there be any survivors of the original race of dragons that preceded dragon zombies and risen dragons out in the world?
  • And there's many unknown lands we've never visited before, far to the east and west, north of the far Shiverpeaks and south from Cantha.
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@derd.6413 said:

Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

Very true.

@derd.6413 said:1) that'd be creepy

2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

I will rephrase to be more family friendly.Creepiness is what you make it. School children watch butterflies hatch from pupa, lay eggs, and die.

The seven year old Sylvari PC has killed more people than seven year old humans do in our reality. If you want to count years in the pod, then apply the same to Aurene. She is hundreds of years old.

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