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Let's Talk About WvW Balance


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Hi everyone, first I would to apologize for my English, its not my mother tongue. Google traduction is my best friend here.

I would like to answer to this post. I play wvw since the beginning (2012) and I've seen the mechanics of this mode changed in the wrong way.So first:The world vs world is not a pvp mode entirely.The wvw is a game mode where good players and averages players are mixed on a supposed strategic and fighting competition.This is what I want to talk about, averages players can't have fun on this mode since the only thing to do is fighting on a imbalance pvp and where roaming is dead or played by gankers, stealth or evade thiefs, Invulnerable warrior or others troll spec'.

A lot of players aren't good on fighting but bring a lot of tips. This is what I want to say :

wvw is not anymore strategic.

Tower and fortifications are upgrading automatically. The mechanics are poor and players have nothing to do if its not zerging, and farming camps. The ruins is the only mechanic but that's require to roam and to be maybe ganked.Just imagine one second the game without fortifications and lets KD Ratio for scoring, its the same game that you are usually playing.

That's for the game mode.

Now lets talk about roaming. Even if the classes are unbalanced and boosted by powercreep more than by good mecanics classes, I think the bonus's guild on fortifications is a bad idea, why ? Because the game is already unbalanced and this bonus unbalance even more on the allies and ennemy's quarters.

For the classes balance :

All classes can be troll, all classes are enjoying powercreep. Stop defend your spec. You are not objective.I play Daredevil staff and I think its completely broken like Daggerbreaker, Holosmith or condiclown.Powercreep and condition duration should be nerfed and the endurance regeneration should be a statistic like Thoughness, Ferocity or concentration.By this way, it's required for a player to choose a new stat among the power, the condition and the survavibility.As a Daredevil, I wish this spec can gift more endurance during fight like a healer (Fist furry and distracting dagger are totally useless so…). But it can also be gift by a Ranger who has no place on zerg with the druid spec.The endurance régénération can be also counter by the chill of a reaper.

All spec must have a place on the battleground.

Sorry again if my English is bad. Have a nice day

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@ThomasC.1056 said:

@Coinhead.7591 said:Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Coinhead.7591 said:Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

Must be new here in the WvW section :p

Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Coinhead.7591 said:Is removing come stat combinations from gear a possibility? Personally I wouldn't mind to see minstrel gear gone :)

To be honest, I think they should just put everyone in exotic celestial gear with superior divinity runes, for a 1 week to 1 month long trial. At first, I thought it as a joke, but I'm considering more and more seriously that it could be useful.

You could see whether the stat choice is that impactful or not, and above all, you could see what part of the issues come from the stat, and what part comes from the skills/traits.

Last but not least, you could also see whether a lower DPS/higher sustain actually increases the TTK, to what extent, and whether it's actually better/funnier.

Or we could just use PvP style stat selection in a PvP mode, and make it fair on everyone regardless of PvE incomes.

Must be new here in the WvW section :p

Ammy system would kill build diversity. PvP has its own problems and special toxicity. To bring that into a grander scale would cause more issues on top of killing diversity.

I agree. My suggestion is only a week-test, and specifically with celestial to equalize the stats of everyone, and see what comes from the stats, and what comes from the rest (passive procs, etc.), in the scope of the big balance rework that's in progress.

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Institute Boon Sickness. Stripping don't cut it, if they hit a single skill, or strike a single target, and they got every boon back on themselves again. Or worse yet, their in a zerg, and split into 5 man squads within the zerg, and a single player in that squad hits a skill and everybody in the party has instant boons, and then the next guy in squad hits a skill and extends the boons time....seriously boon up time should never be 100% for any reason.

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Yeah since they will never fix boons they should get some new conditions, one like torment, but instead of damaging a player when they move it reduces duration on all current boons on the player, or a reverse confusion which has the dot(reduce duration on boon) but also on skill activation. :dizzy:

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@XenesisII.1540 said:Yeah since they will never fix boons they should get some new conditions, one like torment, but instead of damaging a player when they move it reduces duration on all current boons on the player, or a reverse confusion which has the dot(reduce duration on boon) but also on skill activation. :dizzy:

Yes, we need more complexity, the game is far too simple. /s

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  • 4 weeks later...

Honestly, either nerf elite specializations and their boon output or put in damage and boon caps. Damage and sustain as a whole is ridiculously out of control and has been causing the game to bleed players for years.> @Bish.8627 said:

I would really like of block actually blocked, seems every profession can bypass it and even CC it now

Yes, there's also way too many AoEs or skills that bypass blocks, and not just the condition stuff either. It's like what is even the point of blocking an attack?

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@"Bish.8627" said:I would really like of block actually blocked, seems every profession can bypass it and even CC it now

Can you offer some more context here? Cause i constantly see "blocked!" in blobs. And some skills (eg necro warhorn 5, wail of doom) have had an unblockable effect for a long time (in the aforementioned case, since 6/2013).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

Cal Cohen, Game Designer—Competitive Update“The big thing we have coming down the line for both PvP and WvW is a major balance update. We’ve talked a little about it on the forums and on the WvW weekly stream, but to reiterate: our main goal is to reevaluate the desired power level for competitive game modes. We’re reviewing every skill and trait in the game to bring them more in line with our goals. This update will be a large step in the direction we want to move, but there will certainly be more work that follows and more problems to address. This balance update is currently targeted for Q1 of 2020, assuming everything goes according to plan.

On the PvP side of things, we’ve made some great progress with Swiss tournaments. We’re looking at running a beta event to test the system at a larger scale. Players who participate in Swiss tournaments during the event will earn a unique title. The beta is targeted for early next year, and the full release will follow after any outstanding bugs are squashed.

For WvW, we’re planning to address some of the problems introduced by the warclaw, namely its overall movement speed and elusiveness via evades. We’ll be removing the increased movement speed in owned territory and replacing it with a new Mastery that we’re still working out. We’ll also be reducing the warclaw’s endurance to give players more opportunities to chase it down and force a dismount.”

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@"XenesisII.1540" said:Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

Balance passes, and little else are also par for the course. New guy always pops in, disappears shortly thereafter, half a year later we get a (something).

Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

Balance passes, and little else are also par for the course. New guy always pops in, disappears shortly thereafter, half a year later we get a (something).

Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

It's not crazy, I laughed every time they posted stuff on reddit and they stated the reason was the old officials forums weren't good enough in function, then comes the new forums and yet still the same thing, then they let go the head community manager, who really didn't engage with the wvw section very much either, but meh. Most companies don't have devs directly talking with the players often other than the small indie companies, or a major issue needs discussing. And yeah wvw always seem to lose their devs to something else without even a word.

I'm just content that Cal came out and has already mentioned many areas that need balancing, more than any others have done in the past, I mean has any of the balance team members ever posted in the wvw forums before? They're already working on it and planned for a q1 release, normally they don't even say anything until like a week before release. Maybe it's fluff words as usual, maybe it won't be much done and boons will still be crazy good, but he at least posted in here for discussion and they already have a target release time, I'm gonna cut him a little slack for now before I bring the pitchfork back out.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

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@Chorazin.4107 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

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@blackgamma.1809 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

Which is why I am holding out a sliver of hope that Cal will make a difference. What we have heard is that he actually plays the game with some fairly significant time in PvP. He is new to the balance team and I believe he came from the player base, though I could be wrong.

Of course, it still remains to be seen and I would bet either in game or real life gold on in.

Might be a couple of coppers in both though..

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Not to defend anet for their many years of neglect... but they already talked more about the balancing in the wvw stream they had a few weeks ago, plus it's mentioned again in the looking ahead post.

Is it crazy to think a company with it's own forum might use it?

It seems to be. Not sure why. We only bring the torches and pitchforks out after three or four posts...

But seriously, I just want some engagement from them.

Im only here to bring out the pitch forks :(

Lets be fair the balance team really do not have much of a clue. Look at the changes to Chrono, pretty much nuked the class into the ground in one patch. And it's not like it was outperforming Mirage, it had 1 glass cannon blow you up from stealth meme build. That can be executed just as efficiently with core mesmer. They nerfed boon share ages ago, so why the changes?

I think at the end of the day balance is just not a priority for this game. Unless it is something game breaking, the devs load up the skill and animation, do some superficial bug testing to make sure it is working as intended then roll it out.

And the balance is glacially slow in GW2, which I am kind of ok with given this is not a subscription game. You are paying a sub you expect constant updates and balancing. Devs are not cheap, so they probably have like 2 devs they flog to death while the rest of the team sit around and sip organic almond milk rain forest friendly latte's in the office.

months ago, devs removed stealth reveal from gyro, creating a displeasing 3 month zerg meta where the zerg that had the shorter stealth duration first lost the fight.i straight up stopped playing gw2 at that point. the devs had no idea that they made a balance so bad that it screwed over a core part of the game mode. every wvw player knew it was a bad balance patch, every player knew it was bad balance patch because we as players actually played the game to know it was a bad balance patch. the fact that players knew, and devs that should of known better to not make that change is giant big red flag about the disconnect that devs have from understanding their own game mode. [at the time anyways]

the devs definitely has dropped the ball multiple times, because they had no reason or rhyme when they implements a change, because they had no direction. in hopes that they have finally found a direction, an understanding the path they want to make a wvw a good game mode, maybe a simplistic balance patch with a direction is what they need so they can make the appropriate steps forward to create more room for a better game mode.

Which is why I am holding out a sliver of hope that Cal will make a difference. What we have heard is that he actually plays the game with some fairly significant time in PvP. He is new to the balance team and I believe he came from the player base, though I could be wrong.

Of course, it still remains to be seen and I would bet either in game or real life gold on in.

Might be a couple of coppers in both though..

But his work/actions are probably limited to just damage up and down, wich is redundanct way of not solving the real issue arround what is creating the unbalance in the game.

Damage up and down wont solve the current class and combat mess game is suffering.The main reason we are in this state of a game is due how classes were designed and Anet devs mentality behind it and how players should be carried by the class gameplay....if they keep adding every class lots of spam and redundanct gameplay but just with more damage or plenty more boons, Cal work m8 be unnoteceable has much he can try to put the game in the right direction, and IMO he does not deserve it to backfire while during 7years Anet was completelly ignorant about decent class creation andbalance fixes...

IMO mainlly Anet needs to see what classes due and not, mesmer for example feels pretty much the same wahever elite or core speck im playing i have access to the "same burst" combos being trough condi or damage wont change much cause the main mechanics stand equal and redundanct just with a diferent name and animation and intead of hitting 3, hits 5.

As for mesmer as example, they need to think and avaliate what core does, what mirage does and what chronomancer does even if means remove or add mechanics on its gameplay.For example, mesmer needs to loose access to stealth, it has clones, and needs some new mechanic added as compensation, mirage could have the stealth and gameplay arround clones/mirages, chronomancer would loose stealth but could save positions like thief and return to its inital position due time control,could become a hexer, chrono means time, class should be about slow and aste allies, make conditions on enemy pulse faster ticks and slower on allies, it could also end allie boons faster with is hexes, what we have now kinda feels themewise weak :\ its gameplay could be better than find gimmicks based on damage output, just like any other mesmer build or class.

To many classes doing the same:ResistanceCondi spamCleanse spamBoon spam and stackAoe's...its a messfest.

Each class should be themed andlimited to control that its theme sets to it.

TDRL, Anet lacked vision when making the classes now we are all paying for that, all classes are just a buffed version from previous versions....IMO that need to get fixed changed ASAP before any balance change wich are just damage up and dow, and since classes use salvaged mechanics and skills to feel different with just higher damage it didnt helped at all the game.

To many classes doing the same, wil be impossible or make combat better.

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The non-Damage times for such Chars like Warriors and Archers is way to high. Four seconds plus of non-Damage is they Live and Death for others. For example, when playing with my Necro I attack them I just see Zero’s popping up for Damage, so I have to run because if you stand and Fight your Dead. Even if you wait the time till you can do Damage you can’t even cast enough damage in the time given before you see Zero’s popping again. Same Thing with Archers and there holding. They capture you send their pets and shoot, bam your dead and you can’t do a thing and if you get loose to attack, you’re not going to see them because they disappear. Just like thieves. If you see one 10 seconds in a fight you did well. 90% of the time you can’t see them and if they play dead eye, BAM One Hit, your dead if you didn’t manage to hit more life or roll at the second they shot. Sure Necors and others have longer Life or healing and the Wells which say can’t be blocked( Don’t work) you see zero’s and not Damage.Ok the new trades were added so that you can run around with different armor and traits but here you have to click all over and Really, when running with a group/Guild who switches when you running alone to catch back up with the group. If you do then you forget to change when you’re back with the group from your 1vs1 to Guild Build. Ooops.

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