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[Idea] Making Stamina Bars Visible For Enemies


K THEN.5162

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Let's be real, there are a lot of ways to avoid damage in pvp, so much so that it's almost more luck based to actually land anything due to most classes these days (Mesmer, Warrior, Thief being the worst offenders) rotating through damage avoidance skills/dodges constantly. Now keeping track of active defences isn't relatively trivial as I'm pretty sure most recognized when endure pain and distortion is being used. However since we're apparently in a meta where many classes have access to permanent or near permanent vigor, keeping track of when the opponent has dodges available can be quite a challenge (especially for thieves).To solve this, I'm offering the idea of making our endurance bars public such as in the picture below:JEYVuhu.png

I think making this information available will add a little more depth to the pvp gameplay such as knowing when to time your skills or when you have to bait a dodge instead of just chucking your skills and hoping some of them randomly hit

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@"K THEN.5162" said:Let's be real, there are a lot of ways to avoid damage in pvp, so much so that it's almost more luck based to actually land anything due to most classes these days (Mesmer, Warrior, Thief being the worst offenders) rotating through damage avoidance skills/dodges constantly. Now keeping track of active defences isn't relatively trivial as I'm pretty sure most recognized when endure pain and distortion is being used. However since we're apparently in a meta where many classes have access to permanent or near permanent vigor, keeping track of when the opponent has dodges available can be quite a challenge (especially for thieves).To solve this, I'm offering the idea of making our endurance bars public such as in the picture below:JEYVuhu.png

I think making this information available will add a little more depth to the pvp gameplay such as knowing when to time your skills or when you have to bait a dodge instead of just chucking your skills and hoping some of them randomly hit

tbh, while the idea may be favored, it defeats the purpose on situation awareness and lessens the skill required when fighting other players.

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@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

tbh, while the idea may be favored, it defeats the purpose on situation awareness and lessens the skill required when fighting other players.

Thank you for your input but can I ask you mean by situation awareness? Because there are numerous passives and skills that give bonus endurance, such as in these traits, making it nearly impossible to keep track of dodges even when you're paying attention to the number of times an individual dodged. I personally think it would increase the skill levels of everyone because they'd know how to respond to the information given to them rather than wasting your key skills just because your opponent is running sigil of energy.

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@"K THEN.5162" said:Let's be real, there are a lot of ways to avoid damage in pvp, so much so that it's almost more luck based to actually land anything due to most classes these days (Mesmer, Warrior, Thief being the worst offenders) rotating through damage avoidance skills/dodges constantly. Now keeping track of active defences isn't relatively trivial as I'm pretty sure most recognized when endure pain and distortion is being used. However since we're apparently in a meta where many classes have access to permanent or near permanent vigor, keeping track of when the opponent has dodges available can be quite a challenge (especially for thieves).To solve this, I'm offering the idea of making our endurance bars public such as in the picture below:JEYVuhu.png

I think making this information available will add a little more depth to the pvp gameplay such as knowing when to time your skills or when you have to bait a dodge instead of just chucking your skills and hoping some of them randomly hit

I say no, this idea servers absolutely no other purpose that even further lowering players skill level. If more ideas like this came up the PvP would be super boring, it would basically be a PvE only vs Players. (in terms of combat only, PvE is fun too)

Also can you edit out your Asura? Or at least its head? Its freaking me out big time.

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@Alatar.7364 said:I say no, this idea servers absolutely no other purpose that even further lowering players skill level. If more ideas like this came up the PvP would be super boring, it would basically be a PvE only vs Players. (in terms of combat only, PvE is fun too)Also would you mind giving a couple examples or further depth to your statement when you say it would lower skill? Cause I'm having a hard time seeing how in our current state, essentially crossing your fingers and hoping your opponent doesn't dodge your key ability is more skillful than knowing how to adapt to when your opponent has a dodge available

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This is actually the best idea I've heard in years. I hope this idea gets a lot of attention.

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" I disagree with this lowering awareness and skill level. If anything, it encourages paying attention to status parameters which is creating more awareness. With the way it is now "invisible endurance bars" this is more about game experience and raw knowledge than it is skill. A player who well knows meta builds could properly count or "know" rather, when someone has their endurance baited out, which isn't exactly mechanical skill based truth be told.

Allowing us to see the endurance bars would spur much more skillful play in all seriousness. It would create a lot of new intel to consider in a team fight when you're choosing who to target next. Target the Necro who has full endurance or target the hard to kill Scrapper who's low on endurance? It honestly would open up much stronger counter play options spvp/wvw wide. It would also allow new baiting tactics such as a Thief who has Signet Of Agility, he could make himself look prone as if he were close to being defeated, to draw an attacker or two, then pop Sig of Agi for a full endurance regen.

At any rate, this is a great idea that would provide a lot of new dynamic to a very old game mode. I certainly don't think that this idea should be dismissed so quickly. Some slight addition like this could change a lot about how conquest is played. Just a little bit of something extra to keep things interesting.

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@Alatar.7364 said:

Because counting your enemy dodges and evading-skills is one of the things that makes a difference between an average player and a good player.Your idea would blur that line, average/bad players would gain advantage and good players would suddenly become indistinguishable from the average ones plus on a very hypothetical level would also lose the investment they put in to becoming better than the others.I can see where you're getting at if it were simply as counting 2 dodges for the enemy player. But I think 2013 is well behind us now as numerous skills and traits influence the dodge meter, heck there's even a WvW food that increases dodge regeneration in addition to vigor (Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew). Although adding the stamina bar would certainly lower in game knowledge if somehow a player can identify and keep track of the dozen skills and traits for a single class influencing the endurance bar, or we can display the display the endurance bar and like Trevor Boyer.6524 said, introduce new tactical play and decision making into pvpI could swear I encountered this picture/gif before on the Forums, possibly even as a reaction to the very same thing I said to you.You probably have! It's one of my favourite photos

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@K THEN.5162 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:

Because counting your enemy dodges and evading-skills is one of the things that makes a difference between an average player and a good player.Your idea would blur that line, average/bad players would gain advantage and good players would suddenly become indistinguishable from the average ones plus on a
very hypothetical
level would also lose the investment they put in to becoming better than the others.I can see where you're getting at if it were simply as counting 2 dodges for the enemy player. But I think 2013 is well behind us now as numerous skills and traits influence the dodge meter, heck there's even a WvW food that increases dodge regeneration in addition to vigor (Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew).

Oh well, ye in WvW it is such an extreme that there it would make sense.

Although adding the stamina bar would certainly lower in game knowledge if somehow a player can identify and keep track of the dozen skills and traits for a single class influencing the endurance bar, or we can display the display the endurance bar and like Trevor Boyer.6524 said, introduce new tactical play and decision making into pvp

But that won't introduce a new tactical play and decision making. It is already there, only now it takes skill and knowledge, with your idea no new tactics would come to be. I don't think there is that many non-dodge evade-skills for each profession to not be able to keep track of them (even though it is only natural that sometimes one can not always keep track of it but that is inevitable part of playing a "real" PvP). I think this idea is only one step away from "Lets display Thief Initiative bar" which I think was already once brought up which I know is not what you had in mind but I am almost sure it would encourage such posts to come up if your idea with the Endurance bar was successful.

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@"Alatar.7364" said:

But that won't introduce a new tactical play and decision making. It is already there, only now it takes skill and knowledge, with your idea no new tactics would come to be. I don't think there is that many non-dodge evade-skills for each profession to not be able to keep track of them (even though it is only natural that sometimes one can not always keep track of it but that is inevitable part of playing a "real" PvP). I think this idea is only one step away from "Lets display Thief Initiative bar" which I think was already once brought up which I know is not what you had in mind but I am almost sure it would encourage such posts to come up if your idea with the Endurance bar was successful.

Guild Wars 2 Conquest had a steep learning curve to begin with. But now that there are 7+ year veterans going against Gold 1s in matches who've only been playing a couple months, the learning curve is even more ridiculous that it used to be for new players entering the scene. This is not helping propagate player base at all. Often new players leave and don't come back because there is no isolated learning grounds like there was 3 or even 2 years ago, where Gold 1s played with Gold 1s and Gold 2s. No, we all play in the legendary division now. That's the problem.

The amount of time that it actually takes to develop the kind of experience level, raw time invested, and knowledge that we are talking about concerning being able to properly gauge how much endurance something may or may not have left, is unlikely for newer players to ever do now. You've got to understand that when most of us entered the scene, it was back when match making actually worked, or during year 1 when everyone was new. We entered a scene where we were against largely & mostly people of our own skill levels. Now when players enter games during their first week of play, they're going against Plat 2+ players or even sometimes Team USA. Ask yourself this, and I'm going to assume you were around about 5 years ago: If you were relatively new to the scene and wanted to learn pvp, would you have stuck around for very long if every other game you queued was a blinding 500 to 20 or worse loss to ESL Pro players that happened so fast that you didn't even have time to learn anything? Really think about that one, because that's exactly what the game feels like now for new or casual players. It isn't worth the sweaty try hard required to get invested in the game mode, when they are being expected to stand up to 7+ years of experience & knowledge. I felt like the suggestion made by @K THEN.5162 was a solution to this problem. I feel like what we need now, is a way to shorten that margin of difference between the raw knowledge that 7+ year veterans possess and that which new players posses, so that mechanical skill factor actually becomes more important again.

Aside from that, even Plat 3+ players are never really SURE if someone does or does not have endurance left, unless they are against something they themselves main and know very well within the current given meta patching. And even then, a lot of their reactions are simply intuitive conditioning that is formed over a long process of osmosis sort of, from playing a ton of matches to get used to a new meta. I think that the truly good players in this game, would argue that it would bring more skill value into this game, to be able to see endurance bars. This way we can plan ahead of exactly how we are going to bait, how much we are going to bait, how long we can stay before we run, and again, they could delay the use of things like Sig of Agi to purposely bait others.

I believe you are taking a very narrow initial stance on this suggestion without stopping to seriously consider the pros that this would bring into competitive modes.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:

But that won't introduce a new tactical play and decision making. It is already there, only now it takes skill and knowledge, with your idea no new tactics would come to be. I don't think there is that many non-dodge evade-skills for each profession to not be able to keep track of them
(even though it is only natural that sometimes one can not
always
keep track of it but that is inevitable part of playing a "real" PvP)
. I think this idea is only one step away from
"Lets display Thief Initiative bar"
which I think was already once brought up which I know is not what you had in mind but I am almost sure it would encourage such posts to come up if your idea with the Endurance bar was successful.

Guild Wars 2 Conquest had a steep learning curve to begin with. But now that there are 7+ year veterans going against Gold 1s in matches who've only been playing a couple months, the learning curve is even more ridiculous that it used to be for new players entering the scene. This is not helping propagate player base at all. Often new players leave and don't come back because there is no isolated learning grounds like there was 3 or even 2 years ago, where Gold 1s played with Gold 1s and Gold 2s. No, we all play in the legendary division now. That's the problem.

The amount of time that it actually takes to develop the kind of experience level, raw time invested, and knowledge that we are talking about concerning being able to properly gauge how much endurance something may or may not have left, is unlikely for newer players to ever do now. You've got to understand that when most of us entered the scene, it was back when match making actually worked, or during year 1 when everyone was new. We entered a scene where we were against largely & mostly people of our own skill levels. Now when players enter games during their first week of play, they're going against Plat 2+ players or even sometimes Team USA. Ask yourself this, and I'm going to assume you were around about 5 years ago: If you were relatively new to the scene and wanted to learn pvp, would you have stuck around for very long if every other game you queued was a blinding 500 to 20 or worse loss to ESL Pro players that happened so fast that you didn't even have time to learn anything? Really think about that one, because that's exactly what the game feels like now for new or casual players. It isn't worth the sweaty try hard required to get invested in the game mode, when they are being expected to stand up to 7+ years of experience & knowledge. I felt like the suggestion made by @K THEN.5162 was a solution to this problem. I feel like what we need now, is a way to shorten that margin of difference between the raw knowledge that 7+ year veterans possess and that which new players posses,
so that mechanical skill factor actually becomes more important again.

Aside from that, even Plat 3+ players are never really SURE if someone does or does not have endurance left, unless they are against something they themselves main and know very well within the current given meta patching. And even then, a lot of their reactions are simply intuitive conditioning that is formed over a long process of osmosis sort of, from playing a ton of matches to get used to a new meta. I think that the truly good players in this game, would argue that it would bring more skill value into this game, to be able to see endurance bars. This way we can plan ahead of exactly how we are going to bait, how much we are going to bait, how long we can stay before we run, and again, they could delay the use of things like Sig of Agi to purposely bait others.

Those are all very good points.However I would blame most of them on balance, the abundance of vigor and overall powercreep that makes such a blatant difference between veterans and new players. I remember when I began playing that I had more trouble understanding and fulfilling the roles rather than having issues with mechanical part of PvP hence why I'd blame the difference on the Balance.It is indeed very likely I would not stick around if the matches back then looked as they do now, but if (big IF) we could focus Ideas on Balancing rather then this idea then I would invest my time in the balancing. (by which I mean if there was a choice between de-powercreeping the game or adding "utility"/QoL indicators/stuff)As I said, you made good points so at this time perhaps @K THEN.5162 's idea should be implemented, but I dare say only temporarily until such bar/indicator should no longer be needed as is now.

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It’s interesting but I feel it could be too cluttered. As a thief main my endurance could go from none to full very quickly. This could be 2 edged sword in my opinion- while it would be nice to see it would change so much that it would hurt ppls eyes. Feel free to give your opinion though because it might be different than mine.

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@knite.1542 said:I think it's a bad idea. It's not very difficult to follow your opponents dodges after fighting them for a pretty short period of time. This will just promote less skillful gameplay.

Like I said to the previous comments claiming it will lower skill, how does increasing a player's judgement of how many defences the person they're fighting has lowers skill level? How can you know for sure how many dodges the person has available when there are numerous skills, traits, sigils, and runes that influence the skill bar that you won't even know that they're running (ex: rune of the adventurer). Also seeing the dodges would reduce the spamfest that is pvp as people would know when or when not to use skills rather than fire off as many as they can and hoping some hit.

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@K THEN.5162 said:

@knite.1542 said:I think it's a bad idea. It's not very difficult to follow your opponents dodges after fighting them for a pretty short period of time. This will just promote less skillful gameplay.

Like I said to the previous comments claiming it will lower skill, how does increasing a player's judgement of how many defences the person they're fighting has lowers skill level?

Because it takes more skill to keep track of how many times someone has dodged and how often they are dodging than to have the answer handed to you.

How can you know for sure how many dodges the person has available when there are numerous skills, traits, sigils, and runes that influence the skill bar that you won't even know that they're running (ex: rune of the adventurer).

You can't. And in my opinion you shouldn't be able to. That's the point of paying attention in combat.

I do think that this change would make combat easier for a lot of players but to me it just seems like an idea designed to hold peoples hands. Either way, I don't want to argue with you over a hypothetical change that probably isn't going to happen.

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As a plat 3 player I support this idea.

Don't think it would require any lower skill, as most people just hit their skills out of "feeling" these days (yes, veterans included - they just have better "feelings").

This is another thing to keep an eye on and also helps punish "mindless" dodging, as the enemy will have better information of when you are actually more vulnerable.

Honestly, i feel stupid that i never thought of this, it is really a simple and elegant solution that will for sure help mitigate some of the so recurrent frustration that plagues this game mode. Most good ideas are like this though, Well done.

I feel like everyone who is saying this would promote lower skill level are a bunch of plebs. Yep.

Guild Wars 2 is a hard enough of a game that it forces people to play off muscle memory and, as Trevor mentioned, condition-built intuition, forged over experience. It does not promote much RACIONAL thinking and decision-making, as it is too fast paced for that. More info about your enemy's situation would help a lot to change that.

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@"K THEN.5162" said:Let's be real, there are a lot of ways to avoid damage in pvp, so much so that it's almost more luck based to actually land anything due to most classes these days (Mesmer, Warrior, Thief being the worst offenders) rotating through damage avoidance skills/dodges constantly. Now keeping track of active defences isn't relatively trivial as I'm pretty sure most recognized when endure pain and distortion is being used. However since we're apparently in a meta where many classes have access to permanent or near permanent vigor, keeping track of when the opponent has dodges available can be quite a challenge (especially for thieves).To solve this, I'm offering the idea of making our endurance bars public such as in the picture below:JEYVuhu.png

I think making this information available will add a little more depth to the pvp gameplay such as knowing when to time your skills or when you have to bait a dodge instead of just chucking your skills and hoping some of them randomly hit

You're just making the game even more ez mode please don't give anet any more dumb ideas. All you're really doing with this is making it easier for classes which don't rely on dodges to kill classes which do rely heavily on dodges to fight properly. You will also be opening up faster kills again. I really don't think this kind of idea is going to help pvp, the game needs heavily balancing and cheese taken out immediately not ways to see what cooldowns the other players have...

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@"K THEN.5162" said:Let's be real, there are a lot of ways to avoid damage in pvp, so much so that it's almost more luck based to actually land anything due to most classes these days (Mesmer, Warrior, Thief being the worst offenders) rotating through damage avoidance skills/dodges constantly. Now keeping track of active defences isn't relatively trivial as I'm pretty sure most recognized when endure pain and distortion is being used. However since we're apparently in a meta where many classes have access to permanent or near permanent vigor, keeping track of when the opponent has dodges available can be quite a challenge (especially for thieves).To solve this, I'm offering the idea of making our endurance bars public such as in the picture below:
JEYVuhu.png

I think making this information available will add a little more depth to the pvp gameplay such as knowing when to time your skills or when you have to bait a dodge instead of just chucking your skills and hoping some of them randomly hit

tbh, while the idea may be favored, it defeats the purpose on situation awareness and lessens the skill required when fighting other players.

Mean while we got stealth insta gib, instant skills, one shot builds and a ton of other shenanigans that has nothing with skill.

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Awesome idea. And to those who say it will lower a skill level of pvp... nope. It won't. It will actually up the skill of players. Cuz instead of just "kind of trying" to keep track of your enemies dodges and skills u'll concentrate even more on his dodges. And same goes for other side. If you know your enemy can keep track of your endurance bar.. u'll be more careful with those dodges and will make them count even more. In some other MMOs you can see endurance bar and it actually makes things alot more interesting and tactical. (for example a simple tactic is baiting enemy even further until he's done a mistake. and then go for the kill full on rage mode when endurance bar is empty) We need these and even more changes cuz now gw2s pvp is really at the rock bottom when it comes to skill. It's just overtuned elite specs smashing their buttons with their cheese builds.. we need serious overhaul anyway if we want to go back to gw2 being atleast somewhat skillful. Some would argue that gw2 never had a skillful pvp tho. I'd agree with that. Compared to other games.. it's really a cheese fiesta.

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@"K THEN.5162" said:Let's be real, there are a lot of ways to avoid damage in pvp, so much so that it's almost more luck based to actually land anything due to most classes these days (Mesmer, Warrior, Thief being the worst offenders) rotating through damage avoidance skills/dodges constantly. Now keeping track of active defences isn't relatively trivial as I'm pretty sure most recognized when endure pain and distortion is being used. However since we're apparently in a meta where many classes have access to permanent or near permanent vigor, keeping track of when the opponent has dodges available can be quite a challenge (especially for thieves).To solve this, I'm offering the idea of making our endurance bars public such as in the picture below:
JEYVuhu.png

I think making this information available will add a little more depth to the pvp gameplay such as knowing when to time your skills or when you have to bait a dodge instead of just chucking your skills and hoping some of them randomly hit

tbh, while the idea may be favored, it defeats the purpose on situation awareness and lessens the skill required when fighting other players.

Then again it also makes combat in pvp more viewable and acessible. Dont take thst as disagreeing with you just that this could also have some nice benefits.

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@phokus.8934 said:This won’t help anyone except those who watch the UI.

How often does someone use a CC skill on an enemy with stacks of stability? And you think they’re going to pay attention to an endurance bar?It's even not guaranteed to land a cc if you know your opponent doesn't have a dodge cause anet even implemented passive stunbreaks such as for warrior and ranger that just state that they're immune automatically without any indication that they're running the trait

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