Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Unless Joko was directly/indirectly given divine power his story makes no sense. It wasn't all lies


Recommended Posts

Well, Khilbron was also immortal and needed to be slain atop the Ring of Fire Bloodstone in order for heroes to use it to siphon his lifeforce (as souls are basically a form of magic, and Bloodstones were meant to contain magic) off of him and render him vulnerable. I always wondered how Rurik learned this information so he could inform the heroes on how to beat the Undead Lich at Hell's Precipice.

While the Vabbian djinn overseer is certainly one candidate for Joko's lichdom (if the devs thought of making the djinn be a trickster whose wishes tend to be literal or have another hidden twist), I always wondered if Joko possessing some of Abaddon's forbidden scrolls (as suggested by the Ascension Pilgrim dialogue) had something to do with his turn, especially when we remember that Khilbron also invoked Abaddon's forbidden scrolls to cause the Cataclysm and returned as a lich sometime later (and how Fendi Nin was cursed by King Zoran's vizier who could've had access to the forbidden scrolls in Arah similar to Khilbron). It would make sense for the God of Wisdom/Secrets, who likely hoarded knowledge of all kinds similar to the goddess Kormir, to have written down forbidden information on how to cheat death and use souls to sustain an undead body with lifeforce indefinitely, and Joko may have abused this information to his leisure. If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

One of the reasons I wanted there to be an Episode 5.5 in Season 4 was to explore the origin of liches to figure out what grants them such power and how it could be used to Aurene's benefit. It would've been nice to seek out the guidance of Raven as a spirit guide in the Underworld to find Aurene's trapped soul in whatever dragon afterlife she'd end up in and help her, as a newborn lich, in her first resurrection. We could've traversed the Sulfurous Wastes and maybe entered the Great Margonite Temple, Abaddon's intended seat of power had he been able to succeed with Nightfall, to find the Abaddon scrolls that Joko might have hidden there. Perhaps we could've run into the surviving good Margonites like the Apostate and the Lost who could've told us more information about the All, and we'd help Aurene find her path through the afterlife while fending off the Hunter, a Margonite granted lich-like powers by Khilbron and trapped in the Mists, who might mistake the Commander's scent for the GW1 Hero he had been sent to hunt back in Nightfall (as some NPCs have commented on a familiar sensation on speaking with the Commander if the GW2 player has linked Hall of Monuments with GW1) and would act as an obstacle to Aurene's revival that we needed to overcome. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kossage.9072 said:especially when we remember that Khilbron also invoked Abaddon's forbidden scrolls to cause the Cataclysm and returned as a lich sometime later (and how Fendi Nin was cursed by King Zoran's vizier who could've had access to the forbidden scrolls in Arah similar to Khilbron).

It should be noted that the Lost Scrolls are not stated to be Abaddon's. They were kept away by the gods, and predated the Exodus, but that's all we have on their origins.

the Hunter, a Margonite granted lich-like powers by Khilbron and trapped in the Mists,

The Hunter wasn't a Margonite, but a Shiro'ken - a construct created by Shiro Tagachi and empowered by a trapped soul. Which makes the lichdom magic on it even more curious, because it wasn't even a flesh body like normal liches, but an artificial body created of metal and, well, some bone.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kossage.9072 said:If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

Perhaps this defeats my original point. But isn't divine magic and mists magic the same things? Like is there a substantive difference between revenant and divine spellcasting? Maybe it's not Joko that's special but Tyrian magic is restricted by the All. EDs cannot intentionally go outside their spheres because it stresses the system.

Maybe Aurene was allowed to eat Joko. But Jormag had to use persuasion magic with the Havroun. Kralkatorrik could passively absorb parts of Balthazar but not actively consume him.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Kossage.9072" said:If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

Perhaps this defeats my original point. But isn't divine magic and mists magic the same things? Like is there a substantive difference between revenant and divine spellcasting? Maybe it's not Joko that's special but Tyrian magic is restricted by the All. EDs cannot intentionally go outside their spheres because it stresses the system.

Maybe Aurene was allowed to eat Joko. But Jormag had to use persuasion magic with the Havroun. Kralkatorrik could passively absorb parts of Balthazar but not actively consume him.

We're not entirely clear if "Mists magic" and "divine magic" are different.

On one hand, we have this which would imply it's the same (or very similar) as it takes magic of divine origin (e.g., Jade Wind) and tears in the Mists (e.g., Temple of the Ages) and combines them under "energy of the Mists". There is one slight inconsistency in these items though, in that Exalted magic is put on par to Ley Line (aka Tyrian) magic when Exalted magic comes from the Forgotten which is non-Tyrian origins (and thus why the Exalted cannot be corrupted just as Forgotten magic can counter corruption).

On the other hand, the fact that Balthazar twisted Tyrian magic into divine magic implies that it functions far more similarly to dragon magic - which is basically "normal magic" altered into another form.

Normally, Elder Dragons can consume normal magic just fine, and it would seem they can even consume the Mists just fine, but divine magic has some sort of "barrier of understanding" that prevents its consumption unless in a freed state (e.g., Balthazar's death). Tyrian magic can be warped into either dragon or divine magic, and not all divine magic is of Tyrian origin (the implication being that the original divine magic comes from the human homeworld that largely lacks magic except for the Six Gods' divine magic as far as we're currently aware).

Suffice it to say, the answer is: unclear.

The issue is, Jormag ate Owl. That should be as good as Kralkatorrik and Aurene eating Balthazar in regards to becoming capable of consuming "Mists magic" regardless of whether divine magic and Mists magic are the same or not.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Kossage.9072" said:If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

Perhaps this defeats my original point. But isn't divine magic and mists magic the same things? Like is there a substantive difference between revenant and divine spellcasting? Maybe it's not Joko that's special but Tyrian magic is restricted by the All. EDs cannot intentionally go outside their spheres because it stresses the system.

Maybe Aurene was allowed to eat Joko. But Jormag had to use persuasion magic with the Havroun. Kralkatorrik could passively absorb parts of Balthazar but not actively consume him.

We're not entirely clear if "Mists magic" and "divine magic" are different.

On one hand, we have
which would imply it's the same (or very similar) as it takes magic of divine origin (e.g., Jade Wind) and tears in the Mists (e.g., Temple of the Ages) and combines them under "energy of the Mists". There is one slight inconsistency in these items though, in that
is put on par to Ley Line (aka Tyrian) magic when Exalted magic comes from the Forgotten which is non-Tyrian origins (and thus why the Exalted cannot be corrupted just as Forgotten magic can counter corruption).

On the other hand, the fact that Balthazar twisted Tyrian magic into divine magic implies that it functions far more similarly to dragon magic - which is basically "normal magic" altered into another form.

Normally, Elder Dragons can consume normal magic just fine, and it would seem they can even consume the Mists just fine, but divine magic has some sort of "barrier of understanding" that prevents its consumption unless in a freed state (e.g., Balthazar's death). Tyrian magic can be warped into either dragon or divine magic, and not all divine magic is of Tyrian origin (the implication being that the original divine magic comes from the human homeworld that largely lacks magic except for the Six Gods' divine magic as far as we're currently aware).

Suffice it to say, the answer is: unclear.

The issue is, Jormag ate Owl. That should be as good as Kralkatorrik and Aurene eating Balthazar in regards to becoming capable of consuming "Mists magic" regardless of whether divine magic and Mists magic are the same or not.

But Owl is a spirit. Doesn't that fall under Preservation magic? Like https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consume_SoulIIRC Dervish and Rangers don't "consume" them. And Revenants only can under the influence of Glint.

If ED are entirely beholden to this system of maintaining magic levels. Why would they actively eat gods?

Kralkatorrik is the first to physically enter the Mists after we released Balthazar's magic for him. And look how much damage it did.

Assuming the All was created under intelligent design, only passive hunger would be tolerated. And an ED can no more choose to eat a god than Jormag can choose to use Bubble's spheres. The war domain does not belong on the planet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Owl wasn't merely a spirit. She's a Spirit of the Wild. While we're unclear on the exact nature of what Spirits of the Wild and nature spirits are, they're far above normal spirits, as they represent entire physical concepts (animals, elements, landscapes). The four schools don't seem relevant to the Elder Dragons, so not sure why you bring that up (and it's definitely not only preservation that deals with souls, as necromancy does too). Also, revenants don't consume spirits, they channel echoes - they don't deal with spirits at all (nor Glint, technically; only Rytlock met Glint).

If ED are entirely beholden to this system of maintaining magic levels. Why would they actively eat gods?

Not sure what you're asking or prefacing here. The Elder Dragons are greedy and relentless in their want to consume magic for their own gains. They do not actively target gods, not even Kralkatorrik did, but when a demigod happens to die in front of them and unleash a bunch of magic, of course they'd consume that magic.

Assuming the All was created under intelligent design, only passive hunger would be tolerated.

That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least some Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

And an ED can no more choose to eat a god than Jormag can choose to use Bubble's spheres. The war domain does not belong on the planet.

This is very much false, as has been proven. Consuming the magic of cosmic beings, such as Elder Dragons and demigods, definitely allows an Elder Dragon to access that magic.

But only that.

Except with Joko for Aurene for some reason beyond asspull "we killed her, we gotta bringer her back while restricting ourselves to 6 episodes".

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Owl wasn't merely a spirit. She's a Spirit of the Wild. While we're unclear on the exact nature of what Spirits of the Wild and nature spirits are, they're far above normal spirits, as they represent entire physical concepts (animals, elements, landscapes). The four schools don't seem relevant to the Elder Dragons, so not sure why you bring that up (and it's definitely not only preservation that deals with souls, as necromancy does too). Also, revenants don't consume spirits, they channel echoes - they don't deal with spirits at all (nor Glint, technically; only Rytlock met Glint).

We were specifically told some dragons are lesser. There is no baseline for spirits. Owl was strong, but not necessarily special. Just as others have said liches are not above normal necromancers.

Regardless of which school you classify it under, "consuming" spirits/ghostly substances is something even mortals can do. It being within the persuasion domain would not be surprising. Ritualist abilities had to go somewhere. And death/shadow wasn't cutting it.

Assuming the All was created under intelligent design, only passive hunger would be tolerated.

That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least
some
Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

What does that have to do with Elder Dragons not intentionally adding imbalance to a system designed to manage native magic levels?

And an ED can no more choose to eat a god than Jormag can choose to use Bubble's spheres. The war domain does not belong on the planet.

This is very much false, as has been proven. Consuming the magic of cosmic beings, such as Elder Dragons and demigods, definitely allows an Elder Dragon to access that magic.

But only that.

Except with Joko for Aurene for some reason beyond asspull "we killed her, we gotta bringer her back while restricting ourselves to 6 episodes".

Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. Jormag cannot randomly start using Bubble's domains while the other is still living. And Balthazar's magic should not be on Tyria. Which one are you contesting?

The Elder Dragons do not eat each other. They do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines. The All probably does not account for Mist entities having their magic thrown in the faces of hungry dragons by mortal heroes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:We were specifically told some dragons are lesser. There is no baseline for spirits. Owl was strong, but not necessarily special. Just as others have said liches are not above normal necromancers.

This is very much not true. It's very clear that nature spirits (not talking about ranger skills here) are special. Forest spirits like Urgoz, sea spirits like Zhu Hanuku, and animal spirits like Nulfastu - these are more than mere souls of the dead.

When Owl died, this death impacted all living owls. The Spirits of the Wild are not some simple dead individual, but is actually connected to the species itself.

And you don't get souls of the dead that are literally the spirit of fire, mountains, darkness, or seasons. Which again, are spirits that encompass the representation of these elements and landscapes.

We have normal souls of the dead, which ritualists summoned and used. Then we have nature spirits, which are diety-like entities that are representations of animals, landscapes, and elements - Bear, Owl, Urgoz, Zhu Hanuku, Nulfastu, Fire. Zintl and Amiyali likely fall under these kinds of spirits.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Regardless of which school you classify it under, "consuming" spirits/ghostly substances is something even mortals can do. It being within the persuasion domain would not be surprising. Ritualist abilities had to go somewhere. And death/shadow wasn't cutting it.

I mean, yes and no. I don't think the skill "Consume Spirit" is literally eating a spirit. That'd be downright villainous of a skill for players to have. But demons and gods can eat spirits too. And they gain something out of it. But then again, we've never seen them consume a nature spirit - and eating a soul of the dead is a very vastly different thing than eating a nature spirit.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least
some
Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

What does that have to do with Elder Dragons not intentionally adding imbalance to a system designed to manage native magic levels?

Everything.

If the system was created via intellectual design, then either the creator made a massive flaw in designing the Elder Dragons, or the Elder Dragons as we know them are not part of the system design, as with the current Elder Dragons the system is massively broken explicitly because the Elder Dragons are intentionally adding imbalance to the system.

Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. Jormag cannot randomly start using Bubble's domains while the other is still living. And Balthazar's magic should not be on Tyria. Which one are you contesting?

The Elder Dragons do not eat each other. They do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines. The All probably does not account for Mist entities having their magic thrown in the faces of hungry dragons by mortal heroes.

Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic. That's effectively the same thing at this point.

It's possible that eating a dragon champion will allow tapping into the domain, since eating demigods allow tapping into foreign magical domains.

Balthazar's magic shouldn't be on Tyria, but it is.

The Elder Dragons don't actively eat each other because they are more-or-less equals and they're not risk takers. But when the others become weakened, well, we see what Primordus did - he moved across the continent to get at Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic. I would definitely argue against the notion that "they do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines" simply because they seek out magic in all forms, and most importantly all mortals contain magic. Their very act of creating dragon minions is the Elder Dragons "seeking out beings that hold magic".

Just because the Elder Dragons don't personally hunt down creatures, doesn't mean they wouldn't seek their magic. Take djinn for example - they use Abaddon's magic to avoid dragon corruption, and Kralkatorrik sought out enough to have multiple djinn show up during All or Nothing's climax. Or take the Exalted - Mordremoth was actively targeting Tarir and the Exalted's magic, even though he couldn't corrupt them. He instead created two types of special minions for the task - Vinetooths to hunt them down, and Octovines to learn and consume their magic (you can note that Octovines are "chewing" at the bubble in the meta with hidden mouths).

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:We were specifically told some dragons are lesser. There is no baseline for spirits. Owl was strong, but not necessarily special. Just as others have said liches are not above normal necromancers.

This is very much not true. It's very clear that nature spirits (not talking about ranger skills here) are special. Forest spirits like Urgoz, sea spirits like Zhu Hanuku, and animal spirits like Nulfastu - these are more than mere souls of the dead.

When Owl died, this death impacted all living owls. The Spirits of the Wild are not some simple dead individual, but is actually connected to the species itself.

And you don't get souls of the dead that are literally
the spirit of fire, mountains, darkness, or seasons.
Which again, are spirits that encompass the representation of these elements and landscapes.

We have normal souls of the dead, which ritualists summoned and used. Then we have nature spirits, which are diety-like entities that are representations of animals, landscapes, and elements - Bear, Owl, Urgoz, Zhu Hanuku, Nulfastu, Fire. Zintl and Amiyali likely fall under these kinds of spirits.

A high dragon is Elder-like and Lich are no mere necromancers. But being like something, as so many have pointed out to me (including yourself) is not sufficient.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Regardless of which school you classify it under, "consuming" spirits/ghostly substances is something even mortals can do. It being within the persuasion domain would not be surprising. Ritualist abilities had to go somewhere. And death/shadow wasn't cutting it.

I mean, yes and no. I don't think the skill "Consume Spirit" is literally eating a spirit. That'd be downright villainous of a skill for players to have. But demons and gods can eat spirits too.
And they gain something out of it.
But then again, we've never seen them consume a nature spirit - and eating a soul of the dead is a very vastly different thing than eating a nature spirit.

It is no more villanous than consuming life force. As long as you don't take a debilitating or deadly amount it doesn't matter.

Is a thief consuming ectoplasm by putting it in his mouth? Probably not. But that doesn't stop him from destroying it and gaining something.

That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least
some
Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

What does that have to do with Elder Dragons not intentionally adding imbalance to a system designed to manage native magic levels?

Everything.

If the system was created via intellectual design, then either the creator made a massive flaw in designing the Elder Dragons, or the Elder Dragons as we know them are not part of the system design, as with the current Elder Dragons the system is massively broken
explicitly because
the Elder Dragons are intentionally adding imbalance to the system.

The Elder Dragons are not intentionally doing anything. They have uncontrollable hunger and we gave him magic he should never had had access to the first place. Once he gained War he gained access to more food.

Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. Jormag cannot randomly start using Bubble's domains while the other is still living. And Balthazar's magic should not be on Tyria. Which one are you contesting?

The Elder Dragons do not eat each other. They do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines. The All probably does not account for Mist entities having their magic thrown in the faces of hungry dragons by mortal heroes.

Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic. That's effectively the same thing at this point.

Well no. His form is separate from the domains within him. It disintegrated. And then Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed what we released.He was not eaten any more than Kormir ate Abaddon.

It's possible that eating a dragon champion will allow tapping into the domain, since eating demigods allow tapping into foreign magical domains.

Balthazar's magic shouldn't be on Tyria, but it is.

The Elder Dragons don't actively eat each other because they are more-or-less equals and they're not risk takers. But when the others become weakened, well, we see what Primordus did - he moved across the continent to get at Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic. I would definitely argue against the notion that "they do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines" simply because they seek out magic in all forms, and most importantly all mortals contain magic. Their very act of creating dragon minions is the Elder Dragons "seeking out beings that hold magic".

It is not a risk to eat or corrupt another's minions if you are equals. All mortals contain dragon magic, but not divine magic so I don't see how that's relevant. And by all indication Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar, we majorily goofed and put chum in the water.

Just because the Elder Dragons don't personally hunt down creatures, doesn't mean they wouldn't seek their magic. Take djinn for example - they use Abaddon's magic to avoid dragon corruption, and Kralkatorrik sought out enough to have multiple djinn show up during All or Nothing's climax. Or take the Exalted - Mordremoth was actively targeting Tarir and the Exalted's magic, even though he couldn't corrupt them. He instead created two types of special minions for the task - Vinetooths to hunt them down, and Octovines to learn and consume their magic (you can note that Octovines are "chewing" at the bubble in the meta with hidden mouths).

Being uncorruptable does not mean unappetising. Or not containing bloodstone magic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:A high dragon is Elder-like and Lich are no mere necromancers. But being like something, as so many have pointed out to me (including yourself) is not sufficient.

I think the issue you're having is that you're putting everything onto the same scale of "important vs. not important".

Sure, a lich is no mere necromancer, in that their soul is bound to their body, but that doesn't put them on par to Elder Dragons or even demigods. And the so-called "high dragons" include not just Elder Dragons, but dragons that are capable of becoming Elder Dragons (e.g., Glint, Vlast, and Aurene).

It is no more villanous than consuming life force. As long as you don't take a debilitating or deadly amount it doesn't matter.

Is a thief consuming ectoplasm by putting it in his mouth? Probably not. But that doesn't stop him from destroying it and gaining something.

Consuming a sapient soul for the sake of energy is indeed a very morally wrong act, no matter how you spin it. I don't think it's possible not to take a "debilitating or deadly amount" of a soul, since every example we have is "all or none" (even the skill, which will despawn the spirit, leading me to think that the skill is more of an "unsummon to get some energy back" skill that's fanicily named).

Ectoplasm isn't a soul, btw.

The Elder Dragons are not intentionally doing anything. They have uncontrollable hunger and we gave him magic he should never had had access to the first place. Once he gained War he gained access to more food.

If you still think this, you haven't been paying attention to the Elder Dragons' motivations in the plot.

Kralkatorrik was more than just "uncontrollable hunger". He saw a future where mortals and dragons coexisted and he wasn't part of that, and he sought to ensure such a future didn't occur. That was his "intentionally doing something". To ensure this future didn't occur, he consumed magic to gain power, and assaulted mortals. His act of consuming magic to gain power resulted in this still not-fully-defined Torment growing inside him.

Zhaitan is repeatedly stated to have been after creating an eternal nation to rule. Those it corrupted were doing the same things as a risen as they did before death, except for the royalty that were "demoted" to being his eyes across Orr, to demonstrate this. And Zhaitan went about it by consuming magic and forcing people to its reign.

Jormag's even more obvious, with all the promises of power and actively letting go those who refuse it's offerings.

The Elder Dragons are acting with intent, they each have individual goals which require gaining power to fulfill (thus leading to torment, should all be affected as Kralkatorrik was); the whole "mindlessness" was the typical Tyrian view of the Elder Dragons when there were far fewer survivors to talk about interactions with dragon minions (or any face-to-face time with the Elder Dragons themselves) and in all honesty, the mindlessness and force of nature concept faded away with Edge of Destiny novel (as it explicitly told us that Kralkatorrik was a thinking mind).

Well no. His form is separate from the domains within him. It disintegrated. And then Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed what we released.He was not eaten any more than Kormir ate Abaddon.

Dragons eat magic. Magic is life. Eating someone's magic = eating that someone.

I think you're being too nitpicky on exact terms.

The act of Aurene eating Joko's body is fundamentally irrelevant to everything. That first bite where Joko's magic was unbound was the only bite that mattered in that situation.

It is not a risk to eat or corrupt another's minions if you are equals. All mortals contain dragon magic, but not divine magic so I don't see how that's relevant. And by all indication Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar, we majorily goofed and put chum in the water.

Of course it's a risk, since you don't know the outcome if two near-equals fight.

Dragon magic is defined throughout the story (specifically SE, CoE, and Thaumanova fractal) as the corrupting magic of Elder Dragons. No mortal contains that magic, because if they did they'd be dragon minions. But I wasn't saying that mortals contain "divine magic"; I was saying that mortals contain magic - magic which is not in the ley-lines.

Kralkatorrik did not personally seek out Balthazar because Elder Dragons do not personally seek out their targets. We don't know how many branded were sent after Balthazar as Balthazar made his way through the desert, so we cannot say that "Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar". But Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:A high dragon is Elder-like and Lich are no mere necromancers. But being like something, as so many have pointed out to me (including yourself) is not sufficient.

I think the issue you're having is that you're putting everything onto the same scale of "important vs. not important".

Sure, a lich is no mere necromancer, in that their soul is bound to their body, but that doesn't put them on par to Elder Dragons or even demigods. And the so-called "high dragons" include not just Elder Dragons, but dragons that are capable of becoming Elder Dragons (e.g., Glint, Vlast, and Aurene).

There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

It is no more villanous than consuming life force. As long as you don't take a debilitating or deadly amount it doesn't matter.

Is a thief consuming ectoplasm by putting it in his mouth? Probably not. But that doesn't stop him from destroying it and gaining something.

Consuming a sapient soul for the sake of energy is indeed a very morally wrong act, no matter how you spin it. I don't think it's possible
not
to take a "debilitating or deadly amount" of a soul, since every example we have is "all or none" (even the skill, which will
despawn the spirit
, leading me to think that the skill is more of an "unsummon to get some energy back" skill that's fanicily named).

Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

Ectoplasm isn't a soul, btw.

Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

The Elder Dragons are not intentionally doing anything. They have uncontrollable hunger and we gave him magic he should never had had access to the first place. Once he gained War he gained access to more food.

If you still think this, you haven't been paying attention to the Elder Dragons' motivations in the plot.

Kralkatorrik was more than just "uncontrollable hunger". He saw a future where mortals and dragons coexisted and he wasn't part of that, and he sought to ensure such a future didn't occur. That was his "intentionally doing something". To ensure this future didn't occur, he consumed magic to gain power, and assaulted mortals. His act of consuming magic to gain power resulted in this still not-fully-defined Torment growing inside him.

Zhaitan is repeatedly stated to have been after creating an eternal nation to rule. Those it corrupted were doing the same things as a risen as they did before death, except for the royalty that were "demoted" to being his eyes across Orr, to demonstrate this. And Zhaitan went about it by consuming magic and forcing people to its reign.

Jormag's even more obvious, with all the promises of power and
.

The Elder Dragons
are acting with intent,
they each have individual goals which require gaining power to fulfill (thus leading to torment, should all be affected as Kralkatorrik was); the whole "mindlessness" was the typical Tyrian view of the Elder Dragons when there were far fewer survivors to talk about interactions with dragon minions (or any face-to-face time with the Elder Dragons themselves) and in all honesty, the mindlessness and force of nature concept faded away with Edge of Destiny novel (as it explicitly told us that Kralkatorrik was a thinking mind).

Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive. If that doesn't make sense here is the best example I can give from another source of fiction http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-571

An Elder Dragons prime directive:

  1. eat ambient magic.
  2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
  3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
  4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

Well no. His form is separate from the domains within him. It disintegrated. And then Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed what we released.He was not eaten any more than Kormir ate Abaddon.

Dragons eat magic. Magic is life. Eating someone's magic = eating that someone.

I think you're being too nitpicky on exact terms.

The act of Aurene eating Joko's body is fundamentally irrelevant to everything. That first bite where Joko's magic was unbound was the only bite that mattered in that situation.

A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

It is not a risk to eat or corrupt another's minions if you are equals. All mortals contain dragon magic, but not divine magic so I don't see how that's relevant. And by all indication Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar, we majorily goofed and put chum in the water.

Of course it's a risk, since you don't know the outcome if two near-equals fight.

Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

Dragon magic is defined throughout the story (specifically SE, CoE, and Thaumanova fractal) as the corrupting magic of Elder Dragons. No mortal contains that magic, because if they did they'd be dragon minions. But I wasn't saying that mortals contain "divine magic"; I was saying that mortals contain magic - magic which is not in the ley-lines.

The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

Kralkatorrik did not personally seek out Balthazar because Elder Dragons do not personally seek out their targets. We don't know how many branded were sent after Balthazar as Balthazar made his way through the desert, so we cannot say that "Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar". But Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before.

The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything.

An Elder Dragons prime directive:

  1. eat ambient magic.
  2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
  3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
  4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is a means to the end, not the end itself.

A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

"ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic" is indeed native to Tyria since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources".

That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form. And this includes divine magic.

Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

In other words, to make it clear: There is no "native food source under the All". EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a massively flawed system from the start.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

Being close to something is not being something. And having an external origin is contrary to the idea of being a nature spirit.

Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

Ancestral spirits have no life to offer. Whatever Ritualists gain from consuming them or otherwise is taken from their souls.

Just because some souls are devoured whole does not mean all souls are destroyed any time someone slightly drains them.

Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

Rewatch the cinematic. If flew directly into her body. The effect of eating magic does not require the mouth.Humans will not swallow magic. But they will process and use it in ways that achieve the same goals.

Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything

Kralkatorrik's torment has nothing to do with millennia of the entire pantheon eating until they slept.

An Elder Dragons prime directive:
  1. eat ambient magic.
  2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
  3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
  4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is
a means to the end
, not the end itself.

What would their main goal be beyond balancing magic?

A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

Balthazar =/= Bathazar's magic any more than a cow = gelatin. Eating the latter is not the same as eating the former.Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. He ate a part of him.

Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

That is a non-sequitur. Elder Dragons are not gods. The regenerative breaks in a hybrid car can convert electrical into kinetic energy and back. Humans can do that with electrical and chemical energy. It does not stand to reason a hybrid car can perform the same processes as humans.

"ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

Cane toads and crucifix toads are different types of frogs. Chernobyl and sunlight are different forms of radiation. It has no bearing on whether the ecosystem supports its introduction.

The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic"
is indeed native to Tyria
since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources"

Our bestiary is so limited that one+ out of five allied ancient races. Or two+ is far too many.

That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form. And this includes divine magic.

And?As you said: "...Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before."

Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

In other words, to make it clear:
There is no "native food source under the All"
. EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a
massively
flawed system from the start.

Consuming has resulted in madness for one out of six after how many years of successfully preventing the planet from falling into the void or whatever.During which, Kralkatorrik, even as a lunatic, kept the balance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

Being close to something is not being something. And having an external origin is contrary to the idea of being a nature spirit.

Okay? Nothing suggests that the Spirits of the Wild are foreign or have an "external origin". So I don't get what you're trying to argue.

Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

Ancestral spirits have no life to offer. Whatever Ritualists gain from consuming them or otherwise is taken from their souls.

Just because some souls are devoured whole does not mean all souls are destroyed any time someone slightly drains them.Right... but that's not soul reaping like you were pointing out, and your second sentence is exactly what I said - the skill is likely just draining them, not consuming them despite the name.

Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

Rewatch the cinematic. If flew directly into her body. The effect of eating magic does not require the mouth.Humans will not swallow magic. But they will process and use it in ways that achieve the same goals.

I don't even get why you're bringing this all up. If Elder Dragons don't use their mouths to absorb magic, so what. You say "mortals don't have magical stomachs" well, by your very argument as well of the dragons not eating magic via mouths, then neither do dragons.

Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything

Kralkatorrik's torment has nothing to do with millennia of the entire pantheon eating until they slept.

It has everything to do with it. It was literally born from and actively perpetrated the continuation of the millennias of eating too much magic until there was nearly none left causing hibernation.

An Elder Dragons prime directive:
  1. eat ambient magic.
  2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
  3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
  4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is
a means to the end
, not the end itself.

What would their main goal be beyond balancing magic?

Already stated. Each one has a different goal - for Kralkatorrik, his goal was preventing that vision he saw from coming to pass. He acted to prevent this by consuming magic.

The Elder Dragons don't give a damn about balancing magic. They just happen to do so because there were too many overly greedy Elder Dragons active at the same time that they'd consume until they ran out and would be forced into hibernation to let magic levels rise again. Their act of balancing magic from one extreme to the other was coincidental, not intentional nor a goal.

Which was the entire reason the Forgotten and Glint came up with the plan to replace the Elder Dragons with beings who's goals are to balance magic.

A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

Balthazar =/= Bathazar's magic any more than a cow = gelatin. Eating the latter is not the same as eating the former.Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. He ate a part of him.

This is nitpicking beyond belief. Eating "a part of Balthazar" is still "eating Balthazar". It's just not "eating all of Balthazar". If your not a native English speaker that's understandable, but you're nitpicking exact meanings where context exempts such.

Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

Except for, you know, distance.

The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

That is a non-sequitur. Elder Dragons are not gods. The regenerative breaks in a hybrid car can convert electrical into kinetic energy and back. Humans can do that with electrical and chemical energy. It does not stand to reason a hybrid car can perform the same processes as humans.

Straman argument there. Especially given there are an ever increasing number of similarities between the two pantheons. Besides, if divine magic couldn't be converted back, then by rights, Kralkatorrik and Aurene couldn't use it, since they can only use dragon magic. The process of volatile magic literally was "Tyrian magic -> divine magic -> dragon magic".

"ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

Cane toads and crucifix toads are different types of frogs. Chernobyl and sunlight are different forms of radiation. It has no bearing on whether the ecosystem supports its introduction.

You missed the point then. My point has been that nothing outright tells us that divine magic is foreign.

You keep on presuming that it is, just as you presume the Elder Dragons are intentionally balancing magic. These are false or unproven presumptions.

The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic"
is indeed native to Tyria
since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources"

Our bestiary is so limited that one+ out of five allied ancient races. Or two+ is far too many.

More like 1 out of 11.

Forgotten.

Dwarf. Jotun. Mursaat. Seer. Kodan. Tengu. Charr. Giganticus Lupicus. Karka. Djinn.

And that's assuming that all other races somehow came into existence within the past ~3,000 years. Which is highly unlikely.

That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons
will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form.
And this includes divine magic.

And?As you said: "...Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before."

And I'm still saying that. The Elder Dragons will seek out magic, regardless of the type of magic. Hence why Kralkatorrik went into the Mists.

Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

In other words, to make it clear:
There is no "native food source under the All"
. EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a
massively
flawed system from the start.

Consuming has resulted in madness for one out of six after how many years of successfully preventing the planet from falling into the void or whatever.During which, Kralkatorrik, even as a lunatic, kept the balance.

What you said neither adds nor subtracts to what I was saying.

The fact that the Elder Dragons, against all odds, ended up not yet destroying the planet has no bearing on the fact that they're actively trying to do so, nor does it have any bearing on whether or not that was the intended design of The All (be it made by intelligent design or happenstance). Also the devs have heavily suggested during Guild Chat for War Eternal that all the Elder Dragons suffer from the same or similar torment as Kralkatorrik in their own ways, and that Aurene may even fall victim to it in the future.

All of this suggests, as I said, that the current state as of before GW2 was not the "original design" of The All and Elder Dragons. That at some point in the past, things got fucked up, and despite all odds, the world didn't die yet.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

Being close to something is not being something. And having an external origin is contrary to the idea of being a nature spirit.

Okay? Nothing suggests that the Spirits of the Wild are foreign or have an "external origin". So I don't get what you're trying to argue.

Except your entire argument is about comparing them to extraterrestrials.

Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

Ancestral spirits have no life to offer. Whatever Ritualists gain from consuming them or otherwise is taken from their souls.

Just because some souls are devoured whole does not mean all souls are destroyed any time someone slightly drains them.Right... but that's not soul reaping like you were pointing out, and your second sentence is exactly what I said - the skill is likely just draining them, not consuming them despite the name.

Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

Rewatch the cinematic. If flew directly into her body. The effect of eating magic does not require the mouth.Humans will not swallow magic. But they will process and use it in ways that achieve the same goals.

I don't even get why you're bringing this all up. If Elder Dragons don't use their mouths to absorb magic, so what. You say "mortals don't have magical stomachs" well, by your very argument as well of the dragons not eating magic via mouths, then neither do dragons.

They probably don't. We've been inside one and all we found was the heart. But that's another matter that only relates you adding processes where none necessarily exist.

Balthazar was not eaten. Neither was his magic. At best you could say Kralkatorrik appeared to drink or breathe in the power that was sealed in the late demigod. But as Aurene shows that is not a necessity of the process.

Any Ritualist on the plane could have consumed power from Owl. Not enough to deplete it beyond existence. But enough to gain health or some temporary benefit.Would they be digesting parts of owl inside themselves? No. Is that a requirement for destroying a power source. Also no.

Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything

Kralkatorrik's torment has nothing to do with millennia of the entire pantheon eating until they slept.

It has
everything
to do with it. It was
literally born from
and actively perpetrated the continuation of the millennias of eating too much magic until there was nearly none left causing hibernation.

He is one member of an entire pantheon. Unless you are saying they all have torments it has nothing to do with it.

An Elder Dragons prime directive:
  1. eat ambient magic.
  2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
  3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
  4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is
a means to the end
, not the end itself.

What would their main goal be beyond balancing magic?

Already stated. Each one has a different goal - for Kralkatorrik, his goal was preventing that vision he saw from coming to pass. He acted to prevent this by consuming magic.

The Elder Dragons don't give a kitten about balancing magic. They just happen to do so because there were too many overly greedy Elder Dragons active at the same time that they'd consume until they ran out and would be forced into hibernation to let magic levels rise again. Their act of balancing magic from one extreme to the other was
coincidental,
not intentional nor a goal.

Which was the entire reason the Forgotten and Glint came up with the plan to replace the Elder Dragons with beings who's goals
are
to balance magic.

And what do you base it being a coincidence on?

A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

Balthazar =/= Bathazar's magic any more than a cow = gelatin. Eating the latter is not the same as eating the former.Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. He ate a part of him.

This is nitpicking beyond belief. Eating "a part of Balthazar" is still "eating Balthazar". It's just not "eating all of Balthazar". If your not a native English speaker that's understandable, but you're nitpicking exact meanings where context exempts such.

Did Aurene eat Balthazar?Did Balthazar eat a bloodstone?Did Aurene eat Joko?

Only one of those is yes. And that behavior means something entirely different from the context in which the others were absorbed. And from an Elder Dragons eating/drinking/breathing/whatever unbound magic that used to be sealed in an entity. We don't call people who eat their fingernails cannibals. It is disingenuous to compare them. Especially when discussing goals.

Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

Except for, you know,
distance
.

You have already established they send out minions to gather magic. One minion attacks another minion and steals its magic.

The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

That is a non-sequitur. Elder Dragons are not gods. The regenerative breaks in a hybrid car can convert electrical into kinetic energy and back. Humans can do that with electrical and chemical energy. It does not stand to reason a hybrid car can perform the same processes as humans.

Straman argument there. Especially given there are an ever increasing number of similarities between the two pantheons. Besides, if divine magic couldn't be converted back, then by rights, Kralkatorrik and Aurene couldn't use it, since they can only use dragon magic. The process of volatile magic literally was "Tyrian magic -> divine magic -> dragon magic".

Do I really need to do the birds and bats example? And what lore says they can only use dragon magic? The only restriction we have seen is they can't use dragon magic from another's sphere. And we have no idea how long War/Fire would have lasted.

The fact there is volatile magic at all, is a symptom of the problem.

"ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

Cane toads and crucifix toads are different types of frogs. Chernobyl and sunlight are different forms of radiation. It has no bearing on whether the ecosystem supports its introduction.

You missed the point then. My point has been that
nothing outright tells us that divine magic is foreign.

And nothing outright tells us it isn't. We have to rely on its usage.

You keep on presuming that it is, just as you presume the Elder Dragons are intentionally balancing magic. These are false or unproven presumptions.'

They balance magic by existing. Anything the fulfills that goal fulfills the other. Whether they are doing it to the best of their ability, or want to be part of the All is another matter entirely.

The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic"
is indeed native to Tyria
since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources"

Our bestiary is so limited that one+ out of five allied ancient races. Or two+ is far too many.

More like 1 out of 11.

Forgotten.

Dwarf. Jotun. Mursaat. Seer. Kodan. Tengu. Charr. Giganticus Lupicus. Karka. Djinn.

And that's assuming that all other races somehow came into existence within the past ~3,000 years. Which is highly unlikely.

That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons
will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form.
And this includes divine magic.

And?As you said: "...Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before."

And I'm still saying that. The Elder Dragons will seek out magic, regardless of the type of magic. Hence why Kralkatorrik went into the Mists.

After. So why didn't he seek out the Djinn before.

Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

In other words, to make it clear:
There is no "native food source under the All"
. EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a
massively
flawed system from the start.

Consuming has resulted in madness for one out of six after how many years of successfully preventing the planet from falling into the void or whatever.During which, Kralkatorrik, even as a lunatic, kept the balance.

What you said neither adds nor subtracts to what I was saying.

The fact that the Elder Dragons, against all odds, ended up not yet destroying the planet has no bearing on the fact that they're actively trying to do so, nor does it have any bearing on whether or not that was the intended design of The All (be it made by intelligent design or happenstance). Also the devs have heavily suggested during Guild Chat for War Eternal that all the Elder Dragons suffer from the same or similar torment as Kralkatorrik in their own ways, and that Aurene may even fall victim to it in the future.

All of this suggests, as I said, that the current state as of before GW2 was not the "original design" of The All and Elder Dragons. That at some point in the past, things got kitten up, and
despite all odds
, the world didn't die yet.

If the point of the All is to prevent Tyria from falling into the void/blowing up/whatever from the extremes of magic. The ED, intentionally or not, have been doing fine until we and the gods messed it up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

  1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
  2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
  3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
  4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

Hi Daniel. I'm back from the naughty corner. I agree with you. Palawa isn't a complete liar. His memory of past lives, coupled with his mastery of wurms and his residence in the Crystal Desert is an allusion to the Kwisatz Haderach of Frank Herbert's Dune series. Identifying the inspiration for this aspect of Joko's character isn't enough to validate his outrageous claims. However, the Orrian History Scrolls, combined with many other indirect forms of evidence from GW1, indicate that Abaddon's domain (water) included mankind's memory of history.

Abaddon's fall has left most of mankind - and many races of Tyria - confused about their past. I maintain that the Margonites carried a gene that allowed them to remember the past in ways that other species of human could not. I believe that Palawa carries either this gene, or a similar gene.

As to when Palawa acquired his power: I believe that Palawa participated in the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven, when the magic of the Six gods was combined in new terrifying ways. This battle Awakened Palawa.

In other words, I think that Palawa Joko is an aspect of Abaddon. My 2 cents :+1:

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Okay? Nothing suggests that the Spirits of the Wild are foreign or have an "external origin". So I don't get what you're trying to argue.

Except your entire argument is about comparing them to extraterrestrials.

Didn't know the Elder Dragons were extraterrestrials.

To be less sarcastic, I compared them to anything that gave the Elder Dragons new powers when consuming the magic of another entity - e.g., the Elder Dragons, Balthazar, and Joko. All of which use native magic, in technicality (or as far as we know for Joko's case).

Balthazar was not eaten. Neither was his magic. At best you could say Kralkatorrik appeared to drink or breathe in the power that was sealed in the late demigod. But as Aurene shows that is not a necessity of the process.

You're being too strict and technical on terminology. Regardless of whether or not they eat magic through their mouths, "eating magic" is the terminology Tyrians and the developers use to denote the Elder Dragons consuming magic, and Balthazar's magic was undeniably consumed by Kralkatorrik and Aurene.

The technicalities of how dragons consume magic is irrelevant to the fact that they consume magic.

And since Balthazar was a literal walking sack of magic, consuming his magic = consuming him. Remember: Balthazar was not a living being:

Scanner: No—life—detected. Only—magic—energy—present.

The Six Gods are not living beings. They are their magic, and their magic is them. This is why Abaddon could survive the destruction of his body before the Exodus, and was able to reform one out of the Realm of Torment itself. This is why Dhuum is literally just enchanted armor in GW2. This is why Balthazar's body breaks up upon defeat. This is why Kormir is said to have died to become a god.

Any Ritualist on the plane could have consumed power from Owl. Not enough to deplete it beyond existence. But enough to gain health or some temporary benefit.Would they be digesting parts of owl inside themselves? No. Is that a requirement for destroying a power source. Also no.

Siphoning power from != consuming the spirit

It has
everything
to do with it. It was
literally born from
and actively perpetrated the continuation of the millennias of eating too much magic until there was nearly none left causing hibernation.

He is one member of an entire pantheon. Unless you are saying they all have torments it has nothing to do with it.

I explicitly stated that given what we know, if it highly likely that is the case. The devs even outright state that it's likely the case.

Already stated. Each one has a different goal - for Kralkatorrik, his goal was preventing that vision he saw from coming to pass. He acted to prevent this by consuming magic.

The Elder Dragons don't give a kitten about balancing magic. They just happen to do so because there were too many overly greedy Elder Dragons active at the same time that they'd consume until they ran out and would be forced into hibernation to let magic levels rise again. Their act of balancing magic from one extreme to the other was
coincidental,
not intentional nor a goal.

Which was the entire reason the Forgotten and Glint came up with the plan to replace the Elder Dragons with beings who's goals
are
to balance magic.

And what do you base it being a coincidence on?

As I said, the fact that the Elder Dragons don't give a shit about balancing magic. Their goals are not to balance magic, they each have their own goals. "Balancing magic" from one extreme to the other is an unintended side-effect of how they're going about obtaining their goals, and the number of them.

Kralkatorrik and Season 4 is proof of this. If Kralkatorrik's goal was to balance magic, he would never have begun invading the Mists, since the Mists is separate from The All (as Taimi said, if Kralkatorrik's magic was released in the Mists, Tyria was done for, which is why we had to lure him to Dragonfall to kill and replace him - because even just replacing him in the Mists breaks The All). If Kralkatorrik's goal and intention was to balance magic, then he wouldn't outright tell us that his goal was:

Kralkatorrik: It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.

Kralkatorrik never cared about balance of magic - at least not in the scope of the known history of Thyria. And he tells us this himself.

That's what I base it on being a coincidence. The fact we're told it is.

This is nitpicking beyond belief. Eating "a part of Balthazar" is still "eating Balthazar". It's just not "eating all of Balthazar". If your not a native English speaker that's understandable, but you're nitpicking exact meanings where context exempts such.

Did Aurene eat Balthazar?Did Balthazar eat a bloodstone?Did Aurene eat Joko?

Only one of those is yes. And that behavior means something entirely different from the context in which the others were absorbed. And from an Elder Dragons eating/drinking/breathing/whatever unbound magic that used to be sealed in an entity. We don't call people who eat their fingernails cannibals. It is disingenuous to compare them. Especially when discussing goals.

If you crack open an egg and eat the yoke, are you eating the egg?

Yes.

If you crack open a bloodstone, and consume the magic inside, are you eating the bloodstone?

Yes.

If you crack open a demigod, and consume the magic inside, are you eating the demigod?

Yes.

Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

Except for, you know,
distance
.

You have already established they send out minions to gather magic. One minion attacks another minion and steals its magic.

And then you antagonize what you perceive to be one of the five creatures in the world capable of ending your existence.

The Elder Dragons aren't stupid, and there's plenty of magic to go around without antagonizing their peers. They likely also know the importance they have to The All and would avoid destroying the world (unless their goal was exactly that, but even Kralkatorrik's goal under his torment was ultimately self-preservation).

Straman argument there. Especially given there are an ever increasing number of similarities between the two pantheons. Besides, if divine magic couldn't be converted back, then by rights, Kralkatorrik and Aurene couldn't use it, since they can only use dragon magic. The process of volatile magic literally was "Tyrian magic -> divine magic -> dragon magic".

Do I really need to do the birds and bats example? And what lore says they can only use dragon magic? The only restriction we have seen is they can't use dragon magic from another's sphere. And we have no idea how long War/Fire would have lasted.

The fact there is volatile magic at all, is a symptom of the problem.

The very definition of dragon magic is "magic dragons use". Just replay Sorrow's Embrace and Crucible of Eternity story modes, and it should be clear. They consume magic, they convert magic into draconic energy, then they use explicitly that converted magic.

It wasn't until Taimi came along and attempted to redefine it in Season 3 that it ever changed perceptions throughout the PS or S1.

You missed the point then. My point has been that
nothing outright tells us that divine magic is foreign.

And nothing outright tells us it isn't. We have to rely on its usage.

Yes, it's usage by a native race to contain native magic.

We have usage telling us that some divine magic is native. Unless you're assuming the Seers and their "divine resources" were also foreign, in which case you have zero support for the claim, and therefore you're not "relying on its usage".

After. So why didn't he seek out the Djinn before.

Who said he didn't? He literally flew over their home and corrupted a swath of it.

That sounds like seeking out the djinn to corrupt them. And this was done before PoF's events.

If the point of the All is to prevent Tyria from falling into the void/blowing up/whatever from the extremes of magic. The ED, intentionally or not, have been doing fine until we and the gods messed it up.

"Doing fine" by coincidence != the point of the All though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"Stephen.6312" said:As to when Palawa acquired his power: I believe that Palawa participated in the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven, when the magic of the Six gods was combined in new terrifying ways. This battle Awakened Palawa.

Joko was a living being in the late 700s/early 800s, same as Mad King Thorn. He isn't 1,300 years old, merely 500 by the time of GW2.

Source: Palawa Ignacious Joko's own personal diary from his youth

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Kossage.9072 said:especially when we remember that Khilbron also invoked Abaddon's forbidden scrolls to cause the Cataclysm and returned as a lich sometime later (and how Fendi Nin was cursed by King Zoran's vizier who could've had access to the forbidden scrolls in Arah similar to Khilbron).

It should be noted that the Lost Scrolls are
not
stated to be Abaddon's. They were kept away by the gods, and predated the Exodus, but that's all we have on their origins.

the Hunter, a Margonite granted lich-like powers by Khilbron and trapped in the Mists,

The Hunter wasn't a Margonite, but a Shiro'ken - a construct created by Shiro Tagachi and empowered by a trapped soul. Which makes the lichdom magic on it even more curious, because it wasn't even a flesh body like normal liches, but an artificial body created of metal and, well, some bone.

Whoops; I did intend to write Shiro'ken, but apparently my mind was still dwelling on the mysteries of the Margonites so I ended up using one over the other.

Given how souls are tied to magic, though, one wonders how easy it would be to create artificial souls, plant such in constructs, use whatever causes someone to become a lich, and start mass producing liches if given enough time and knowledge. It could lead to a fascinating plot.

The Lost Scrolls' mystery could indicate that if in one scenario the knowledge of lich magic didn't come from Abaddon given the ambiguity, he might have discovered this knowledge from somewhere else--whether from some corner in Tyria or somewhere else in the Mists--before taking that knowledge to his safekeeping and study. It's a shame that we haven't had that many updates on the Priory's findings in Arah beyond some suggestions here and there. Revisiting Arah and entering the Great Margonite Temple in the Sulfurous Wastes might provide us with some juicy answers if we're lucky and give the writers a nice plot hook should they ever wish to explore this corner of lore. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...