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New Generation Roamers lack the Bravery of the Old Guards


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@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Strider.7849 said:I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

Becoming on of there persons

So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

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Trouble is that Anet has determined which role each class should play, if you assume one outside your class you are at a disadvantage. I play necro and love to roam, this is the class I always played and it is a challenge but fun. Also I too miss the days when you paid for upgrades and invested the time and effort in an objective, mine was always a NET. The damn workers are on strike again always made me chuckle.

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pretty sure roaming guilds are going to do whatever they want, and don't really care about what anyone else thinks - just as they have since release

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I even once offered and paid a roamer 2 gold to flip an enemy T3 camp that was supplying SMC with speed yaks that we were trying to take.

This is just sad

I don't recall his name but I think he was a white furred charr from the guild HD

Fake news.

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Strider.7849 said:I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

Becoming on of there persons

So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

My guess based on what little you've said thus far is your point is that when you find yourself successful in outnumbered situations you give your skill too much credit and your build too little. The reason I thought it was important to pursue is that it is probably the same mistake our pve friend from earlier in the thread was making as well. Neither of you came right out and said it, but I'm guessing you're both motivated by the fact that winning feels good and losing feels bad, even though intellectually you're both aware that your personal responsibility for those outcomes ended when you selected your build. If the understanding of that reality could become more commonplace then more players might be able to ascend to a place where they can enjoy the fighting itself, rather than the winning, and the game would be better for it since it would no longer be full of players running from even matchups :)

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@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Strider.7849 said:I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

Becoming on of there persons

So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

My guess based on what little you've said thus far is your point is that when you find yourself successful in outnumbered situations you give your skill too much credit and your build too little. The reason I thought it was important to pursue is that it is probably the same mistake our pve friend from earlier in the thread was making as well. Neither of you came right out and said it, but I'm guessing you're both motivated by the fact that winning feels good and losing feels bad, even though intellectually you're both aware that your personal responsibility for those outcomes ended when you selected your build. If the understanding of that reality could become more commonplace then more players might be able to ascend to a place where they can enjoy the fighting itself, rather than the winning, and the game would be better for it since it would no longer be full of players running from even matchups :)

Yeah whatever dude

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Strider.7849 said:I'm a roamer and have been since game release. What's changed? Aside from a reduced population, one of the biggest changes that has affected roaming is mounts and detection. Now enemies can see you coming from quite a ways away. When you get to the T3 camp, not only are you fighting guards (if you don't instantly nuke them) but you also have to deal with people who die and constantly run back over and over and over again - because of the mounts. Solo/Duo roamers used to be able to take towers, now during prime time you'd be lucky to build a guild cata/ram before enemies on mounts can get in the tower. I frequently fight outnumbered and used to love it in the past but these days it can be draining when you don't even get more than a few moments to recover skills, with constant streams of mounted people slamming into you until they win. The way it's changed is you pretty much have to be capping the camp before swords pop, or you may not be able to cap it at all.

Tbf if you're outnumbered you should expect to lose. I too enjoy fighting outnumbered, but if it is harder to succeed at it now than it was in the past I would count that as progress . . ?

Whats the purpose of this game if IT would be Just numbers VS numbers? I guess no1 would play IT, especially in a gamemode on which numbers are balanced by how players want IT (and not rgn)What's the purpose of the game if balance is so broken players can find builds that allow them to expect victory in outnumbered situations . . ?

Becoming on of there persons

So broken builds are okay bc everyone can choose to run broken builds. The trouble with that logic is it works exactly the same for ppl who want to argue that there's nothing wrong with the larger group winning bc everyone can choose to belong to the larger group . . .

I guess we missing my point here...whether its you or me...Lets Just agree to disagree

My guess based on what little you've said thus far is your point is that when you find yourself successful in outnumbered situations you give your skill too much credit and your build too little. The reason I thought it was important to pursue is that it is probably the same mistake our pve friend from earlier in the thread was making as well. Neither of you came right out and said it, but I'm guessing you're both motivated by the fact that winning feels good and losing feels bad, even though intellectually you're both aware that your personal responsibility for those outcomes ended when you selected your build. If the understanding of that reality could become more commonplace then more players might be able to ascend to a place where they can enjoy the fighting itself, rather than the winning, and the game would be better for it since it would no longer be full of players running from even matchups :)

Yeah whatever dude

Lol thx, that def helped :)

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I'm also solo roamed in EBG flipping camps and killing guards, it is much harder now with the Warclaw and the few time a Warclaw has helped me escape being killed the new lance has pretty well ruined that since now I can be knocked off my mount and no amount of evasive maneuvers can get you out of that except sheer luck. Most days I don't mind becoming someones bag but it does get old rather quickly, still it is fun/enjoyable to see just how deep into enemy territory you can get, killing a few supply yaks and capping a supply camp is all the better...lol

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I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.

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@Opal.9324 said:I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

How does it ever reach T3?

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Opal.9324 said:I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

How does it ever reach T3?

Because taking camp is PvE and mounts are only used by zerglings to go back to their herd of course ! ;)

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@Gop.8713 said:I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

What you ask it's simply not possible...the players themselves make the game toxic to play. Permastealth trolls and gankgroups are rampant in WvW atm, in the past people used to /bow before any fight ...now they'll chase you while being in groups..then they'll drop siege on you, with time I adapted my builds and playstyle to deal with such toxic behaviour.

With that said..I don't run away from an immininent defeat out of respect for myself and the enemy...I take the lesson and come back stronger, that's how I got to this point

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I had the pleasure of seeing one of the OP's pve heroes solo flip t2 nnc on alpine tonight. I arrived literally one tick too late to contest, then stood in the newly enemy camp and laughed at the other player as he cowered outside on his mount, refusing the 1v1. I thought of this thread and wondered if this was the kind of forgotten courage the OP is longing for lol . . .

What roaming needs is not players as 'bold' as the one described above, but rather something that will cause players to understand that losing fights is a crucial part of enjoying the game. We can't blame anet, they've already made fighting as free from consequence as possible. So what can we, as players, do to discourage this reluctance . . ?

What you ask it's simply not possible...the players themselves make the game toxic to play. Permastealth trolls and gankgroups are rampant in WvW atm, in the past people used to /bow before any fight ...now they'll chase you while being in groups..then they'll drop siege on you

Yeah, I mean.. That's how it was in my dreams too

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:For the past few weeks, I have logged into WvW to see Tier 3 enemy supply camps in EBG and Borderlands.

This would have been a rare sight in the past when roamers would have gone deep into enemy lands to take their camps.It wasn't easy to tier up a supply camp.

Now? Tier 3 Supply Camps are everywhere.We got them, enemies got them, everyone got them.

And the reason is because our new generation roamers lack the bravery to roam in enemy lands.Whether solo, duo or party, they mostly roam in home owned territories only.Enter the enemy lands? Rare.

I even once offered and paid a roamer 2 gold to flip an enemy T3 camp that was supplying SMC with speed yaks that we were trying to take.

This is just sad.

Just earlier I watched an old guard roaming guild QQ bravely roaming in enemy territories and fighting outnumbered.This is what it means to roam bravely and freely.

New Generation roamers need to learn this from the old guards.

It has nothing to do with quality of roamers.

It has to do with everything is balance disease and most of us have left, or log in just to complete wood and ignore it for another week in favor of other games that don't feel like chores.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:For the past few weeks, I have logged into WvW to see Tier 3 enemy supply camps in EBG and Borderlands.

This would have been a rare sight in the past when roamers would have gone deep into enemy lands to take their camps.It wasn't easy to tier up a supply camp.

Now? Tier 3 Supply Camps are everywhere.We got them, enemies got them, everyone got them.

And the reason is because our new generation roamers lack the bravery to roam in enemy lands.Whether solo, duo or party, they mostly roam in home owned territories only.Enter the enemy lands? Rare.

I even once offered and paid a roamer 2 gold to flip an enemy T3 camp that was supplying SMC with speed yaks that we were trying to take.

This is just sad.

Just earlier I watched an old guard roaming guild QQ bravely roaming in enemy territories and fighting outnumbered.This is what it means to roam bravely and freely.

New Generation roamers need to learn this from the old guards.

It has nothing to do with quality of roamers.

It has to do with everything is balance disease and most of us have left, or log in just to complete wood and ignore it for another week in favor of other games that don't feel like chores.Feel like chores?

Kind of the same as when a fight commander yells "eyes on the enemy zerg this is boooooooring we get no fights" and when you point out they could attack a T3 keep to get the enemy zergs full attention its like "kitten PPT kittenty kitten". Probably because they know they'll loose that fight. Only fights they win is a good fight after all. Everything else is a chore.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Opal.9324 said:I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

How does it ever reach T3?

idk I haven't had any problems getting to camps in time to defend stuff

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I read through this thread alot but didn't see anyone mention this, the most obvious reason that people stopped roaming (pre-Warclaw) is ArenaNet removed XP gain from WvW which also removed all the newbie upscaled levellers that roamers were going after?

Roaming was always about quick and easy kills, never about harassing enemies specifically..

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Opal.9324 said:I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

How does it ever reach T3?

Because on the equation ontime flipping=time respondingMovement speed (warclaw) is An important variable

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@lare.5129 said:Example from real game-play:80% time I play on wvw solo. I can't solo T3 camp. Sometimes npc kill me. So there is no any point solo run and be killed by npc.If you cant handle it... Then dont. Kill a guard to tag it, run away. Let the larger roaming groups and havocs take it, maybe the guilds and failing all that a 50+ zerg.

Theres no magical rule that says X amount of players have to be able to take an objective and that 1 player always apply to a T3 camp or something is broken. If you cant do it alone, you're meant to group up. Thats the very point of WvW, its the essence of the game mode. If you dont want that thats your choice... but dont kitten blaim the game for your choice.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@"Opal.9324" said:I don't think bravery is the only issue here. I miss when I could flip T3 camps without a mounted gank squad zooming over before I have a chance to finish. Now that only seems to work if I log in when most people are sleeping. Towers are even worse. Feels like trying to solo roam is slowly becoming pointless.But attackers have mounts and everyone claim they arrive at the camps too fast in order for defenders to defend T0.

How does it ever reach T3?

Because on the equation ontime flipping=time respondingMovement speed (warclaw) is An important variableIn my experience map awareness and thinking ahead of your opponent far outweigh movement speed.

I bet that in many situations when a solo roamer try take a camp and suddenly see a defender they might go "kitten speed kittenty OP kitten!" sure, but that defender prolly saw him coming a mile away.

As a roamer I will often run past friendly camps that are ripe for the taking just because I know that if I where the enemy, I'd already have tried to cap it. And what do you know, I often randomly run into nearby enemies.

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How does it ever reach T3?

Because on the equation ontime flipping=time respondingMovement speed (warclaw) is An important variableIn my experience map awareness and thinking ahead of your opponent far outweigh movement speed.

I bet that in many situations when a solo roamer try take a camp and suddenly see a defender they might go "kitten speed kittenty OP kitten!" sure, but that defender prolly saw him coming a mile away.

As a roamer
I will often run past friendly camps that are ripe for the taking just because I know that if I where the enemy, I'd already have tried to cap it. And what do you know, I often randomly run into nearby enemies.I mean yeah, defending is half the job and reading the map is of essence, its of fun play of chess to outsmart the enemy this way!

Still my equasion ain't wrong... Yet the human brains a factor not in account because its a personal variable

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Old school roaming has fallen off partially due to a shrinking population and also due to mounts. With mounts, roaming far from a WP is often a death sentence because players can respond so quickly to swords on a camp and few roamers can escape a pack of players able to break combat and mount up while others keep the roamer in combat.

@XECOR.2814 said:Roamers? You mean gankers?

Exactly. QQ are not roamers and it is difficult to even argue they are skirmish. Nothing wrong with running gank but don't confuse roamers (players that solo roam, scout, flip) with gankers (players that hunt in groups for other players exclusively typically using OP builds, numbers and comms to overwhelm).

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In light of another reply I posted on relinking, I will tell you why I don't go deep into enemy territory to get their camps.

I cannot move, am on a linked server, not a Host... I love playing WvW, but every 2 months I face a new main server to deal with...

Due to that, and due to the "demanding" power of most host servers, that their linked need to "adapt" to their prefered playstyle, I honestly no longer care about who wins or looses. I couldn't care less if "Our" keep was sieged because by now it doesn't feel like "our" keep but "Their" (the host server's) Keep.

So why would I go out of my way deep into enemy territory to get their camps? Why, if I no longer care about any winning or loosing? It is much easier to wait for our centuries and camps to get capped and then take them back... quicker XP, less risk of being ganked...

Before you judge me on that attitude... ArenaNet is responsible for the development of that attitude.

On one of the links (I am not going to disclose which host) I was spewed out and isolated for not playing a Meta classfyi: Due to disabilities, I CAN NOT play a meta class...Pathetic attitude from that host right?

So... why should I take enemy camps deep in enemy territory for them?

I was a roamer, and was (despite my disabilities) quite succesful in taking those enemy camps, but... I no longer feel ANY need to do so... I fight for THEIR stuff, not OUR stuff... so I decided, I fight for my OWN XP AND LOOT and no longer care about anything else... that is unfortunately the ONLY WAY I can somewhat enjoy WvW these days...

Just my 2 cents... something to think about

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Depends how much people have played. I still roam solo 95% of the time so that means outnumbered, and if I see a wall down on a tower or keep I'm definitely going to sneak in and try to cap it or kill any players in it. That said, stuff like the thief portal is pretty dumb, and there's dumb stuff on every class now that just makes playing feel like you're being slapped by trout wielding circus clowns over and over again. Sooner or later you get tired of smelling like fish, and go somewhere else with more culinary variety.

I made myself hungry now, dammit.

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