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Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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@Lottie.5370 said:I think a better change to Rampage would be to remove the stability granted whilst using it so there is some counterplay, I think nerfing the damage to that extent makes it pretty useless - maybe I'm wrong and it'll have a place in team fights.

Rampage can still hit hard, it just won't be able to hit hard while hard cc'ing at the same time.

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@Lottie.5370 said:I think a better change to Rampage would be to remove the stability granted whilst using it so there is some counterplay, I think nerfing the damage to that extent makes it pretty useless - maybe I'm wrong and it'll have a place in team fights.

IT still has like 50% damage reduction, some hard cc, stability and passive healing is affective

That alone sounds like a good elite to me

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@Lottie.5370 said:I think a better change to Rampage would be to remove the stability granted whilst using it so there is some counterplay,

Nah.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:IT still has like 50% damage reduction, some hard cc, stability and passive healing is affective

Yah.

Rampage gives you 10 seconds of hard cc and immunity to hard cc/resistance against soft cc. It still has significant utility if you NEED to occupy a particular area or keep pressure on an opponent, and both of those situations happen very often in PVP.

The damage was just icing on the cake.

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:Rampage can still hit hard, it just won't be able to hit hard while hard cc'ing at the same time.

This. The balance suggested is for its cc moves. Your auto will still hit like a truck.

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@foste.3098 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Condi thief is strong because of this synergy. Consider making a change to sword 2. @ZDragon.3046 made a suggestion that, if you use sword 2 to port and it misses or gets blocked/interrupted, you shouldn't get the flipover skill to return to where you were for a cooldown.

This sounds fine on paper until you realize it would give sword/x thieves infinite teleports as long as you can target something that is far away and proceed to spam infiltrators strike until you get to it; or run out of initiative. Giving a thief weapon skill a cooldown would go against the class design so that is probably a no.Well then the answer would be just not getting the return skill at all if you dont hit anything. Which means if you go in and miss you are just in.This same concept applies to the sword 3 skill with offhand dagger if you miss the evade stab you dont get the flip over skill at all.The counter argument would be to make sword 2 only usable if you are in range of your target, how steal/swipe works, but that would restrict gap closing combos using sword.This is kind of fine to be honest i dont see issues with this as you still hold major advantage with this kind of mobility to go in and possibly go back out at any time you want. There should be a bit more risk to it. Even more so with the condi setups people are running now where most of the damage can be applied through i frame evades that also deal strikes.

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@Ghos.1326 said:@Arheundel.6451 I disagree that holosmith is a bruiser. It's more intended for higher damages. It can go the bruiser route with some of its utilities and traits, but in general, it's made for damaging roles.

There's a difference between the initial intention of Holosmith by ArenaNet in the expansion description, and live gameplay though. According to that same original description, Scourge would be a support and Firebrand would be a burn focused spec.

Holosmith is a bruiser through and through, it has very straightforward attacks, not a lot of burst, only Photon Wall to allow it to play offensive and defensive simultaneously, no boon rip, or instantaneous movement. It goes all in to high sustained healing, high sutained damage, and hammer Warrior-esque chain-able CC. It's a textbook bruiser.

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@Ghos.1326 said:@"Arheundel.6451" I disagree that holosmith is a bruiser. It's more intended for higher damages. It can go the bruiser route with some of its utilities and traits, but in general, it's made for damaging roles.

The holosmith covers a let's say a 'heavy duty burst bruiser' , it shares the role with warrior while ele remains a ..condi/tanky bruiser sort of and ranger being a "thorn in the side" role; necro and mesmers are more like artillery , thief and rev are "bane of my existence" role and guardian a "not today" role.

If you take away the sustain of holosmith, it won't be able to compete with thief or rev for the hit and run role and will get outsustained by ele and warrior while rangers will simply run circles around it...my it's just an assumption but the call to reduce holo effectiviness during team fight and access to quickness is the right call.

I did complain about holo sustain but really it was more a problem with how good it was during teamfights , I have noticed that the reduced radius of shockwave has been enough for me to limit their overall pressure because it's easier to kite them and avoid their big hits, let's say that my initial impression was wrong.

If we really must reduce holo sustain than it's imperative that healing turret or alchemy/toolbet lines are not touched , we want to increase build diversity not decreasing it , without heat therapy they're not overwhelming at average level of skill....let's keep it that way and focus entirely on the elite traitline

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@bravan.3876 said:

@bravan.3876 said:the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes.

I'm fine with the condi ambushes getting redone instead, as long as the end result is a non braindead playstyle, but is that actually doable without upsetting pve?

It should be, because in theory Condimirages dmg output should be nearly the same only the application should be more active and for that with higher risk for the Mesmer and less abilities to play defensive all the time. But even if it would lead to underperfroming PvE builds, Cal mentioned that they can compensate in PvE for dmg loses through mechanic changes by adjusting numbers.

I think this is a bit off putting for one i dont think staff damage output should be what it is period no matter how you shift it. Axe should be the go to tool for hard condi dps from mirage but very few mirages use this because of the ease of staff.

Axe mirage actually applies the things you just listed. Its more active with good damage output and has higher risk and requires the mesmer to play offensively. Also the conditions are pretty limited 2 main damaging conditions which is good because its easier to know what you should avoid and what you dont need to avoid vs staff autos which are slightly rng. With the ambush attacks just being boosted af. Getting hit by a few staff autos might not do much damage while in other moments a few hits from staff autos might cause tons of damage. All of this while boasting a passive defensive play style with hard defensive tools on top of it that you need to force out. There is also the matter of the fact that staff attack bounce around meaning there is potentially no end to the condition application so long as you are trying to engage the mirage it just is constant application.

Ideally swapping to staff should lead to a dps drop for the utility and defensive play style it provides.

As far as ambushes anet should really consider removing the ties that IH gives as far as caster to clone ambush attacks even more so while the caster is disabled. Clones should only cast ambush attacks when the caster actually uses an ambush attack. if the caster is cc'ed and dodges even with IH clones should not perform ambush attacks ideally. One is already being allowed to potentially evade some if not all of potential follow up damage while disabled which is something no other class can do while its disabled without first breaking the effect causing the disable.Shatters should be changed to be unique to mirage too.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@bravan.3876 said:the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes.

I'm fine with the condi ambushes getting redone instead, as long as the end result is a non braindead playstyle, but is that actually doable without upsetting pve?

It should be, because in theory Condimirages dmg output should be nearly the same only the application should be more active and for that with higher risk for the Mesmer and less abilities to play defensive all the time. But even if it would lead to underperfroming PvE builds, Cal mentioned that they can compensate in PvE for dmg loses through mechanic changes by adjusting numbers.

I think this is a bit off putting for one i dont think staff damage output should be what it is period no matter how you shift it. Axe should be the go to tool for hard condi dps from mirage but very few mirages use this because of the ease of staff.

Axe mirage actually applies the things you just listed. Its more active with good damage output and has higher risk and requires the mesmer to play offensively. Also the conditions are pretty limited 2 main damaging conditions which is good because its easier to know what you should avoid and what you dont need to avoid vs staff autos which are slightly rng. With the ambush attacks just being boosted af. Getting hit by a few staff autos might not do much damage while in other moments a few hits from staff autos might cause tons of damage. All of this while boasting a passive defensive play style with hard defensive tools on top of it that you need to force out. There is also the matter of the fact that staff attack bounce around meaning there is potentially no end to the condition application so long as you are trying to engage the mirage it just is constant application.

Ideally swapping to staff should lead to a dps drop for the utility and defensive play style it provides.

As far as ambushes anet should really consider removing the ties that IH gives as far as caster to clone ambush attacks even more so while the caster is disabled. Clones should only cast ambush attacks when the caster actually uses an ambush attack. if the caster is cc'ed and dodges even with IH clones should not perform ambush attacks ideally. One is already being allowed to potentially evade some if not all of potential follow up damage while disabled which is something no other class can do while its disabled without first breaking the effect causing the disable.Shatters should be changed to be unique to mirage too.

That's why people complain about condi mirages ...people have been complaing about Infinite Horizon even before they'd nerf Elusive Mind...it's same thing with druid, instead than nerfing Celestial shadow and Ancient seed as I suggested in a thread long time ago...they nerfed everything around it ...they seem to always do that but I have hope for the new team with Cal and Ben because they seem to go directly for the throat

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What is this 'burst' that Anet thinks condi thief has?

Going full-on ape Panic Strike - dodge - Steal will just get your condis cleased by Shake it Off! or water attunement or Consume Conditions in the matter of seconds. The build is already grind 'em out -style as it stands. Unless, of course, you're +1'ing someone who's already blown their cooldowns - but in that case, Fresh Air Ele, DE, Revenant; all these builds kill people faster.

What I'm feeling here, is the slow gutting of dagger mainhand damage until all you got is chip damage.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@bravan.3876 said:the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes.

I'm fine with the condi ambushes getting redone instead, as long as the end result is a non braindead playstyle, but is that actually doable without upsetting pve?

It should be, because in theory Condimirages dmg output should be nearly the same only the application should be more active and for that with higher risk for the Mesmer and less abilities to play defensive all the time. But even if it would lead to underperfroming PvE builds, Cal mentioned that they can compensate in PvE for dmg loses through mechanic changes by adjusting numbers.

I think this is a bit off putting for one i dont think staff damage output should be what it is period no matter how you shift it. Axe should be the go to tool for hard condi dps from mirage but very few mirages use this because of the ease of staff.

Axe mirage actually applies the things you just listed. Its more active with good damage output and has higher risk and requires the mesmer to play offensively. Also the conditions are pretty limited 2 main damaging conditions which is good because its easier to know what you should avoid and what you dont need to avoid vs staff autos which are slightly rng. With the ambush attacks just being boosted af. Getting hit by a few staff autos might not do much damage while in other moments a few hits from staff autos might cause tons of damage. All of this while boasting a passive defensive play style with hard defensive tools on top of it that you need to force out. There is also the matter of the fact that staff attack bounce around meaning there is potentially no end to the condition application so long as you are trying to engage the mirage it just is constant application.

Ideally swapping to staff should lead to a dps drop for the utility and defensive play style it provides.

As far as ambushes anet should really consider removing the ties that IH gives as far as caster to clone ambush attacks even more so while the caster is disabled. Clones should only cast ambush attacks when the caster actually uses an ambush attack. if the caster is cc'ed and dodges even with IH clones should not perform ambush attacks ideally. One is already being allowed to potentially evade some if not all of potential follow up damage while disabled which is something no other class can do while its disabled without first breaking the effect causing the disable.Shatters should be changed to be unique to mirage too.

That's why people complain about condi mirages ...people have been complaing about
Infinite Horizon
even before they'd nerf Elusive Mind...it's same thing with druid, instead than nerfing
Celestial shadow and Ancient seed
as I suggested in a thread long time ago...they nerfed everything around it ...they seem to always do that but I have hope for the new team with Cal and Ben because they seem to go directly for the throat

More proof of the fact that anet does not simply listen to every thing we say they should nerf so i dont get the idea of people coming here who say anet nerf things because players say they should be nerfed. When in most cases its things that people never suggest that are the things that get nerfed. With very few exceptional cases and in those cases there is usually something very busted realistically.

I cant stand how people should say that anet will never do a good job if they only listen to players when most of the time they dont listen to players in the first place ?

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:You can kite pets. Rock Gazelle hurts but I don't think ranger is as egregious as you're claiming now, especially with the unblockable synergy soulbeast had being trimmed.

I have to say i dont agree with you here which is strange.Pets can be kited only if the ranger does not run beast mastery which most do run.

Otherwise the pet has far-greater mobility passively than you do as a player in combat let alone ones that have dashes, leaps, blinks, etc There is no realistic kiting them at general in combat speeds.

The only way you avoid pets generally is if you have constant access to superspeed or stealth which breaks their targeting causing them to run back to the pet owner or to another target till you re appear this might be enough of a gap to make pets seem avoidable. But generally on most professions that cannot stealth often there is no kiting the pet. The pet is going to get you how much it gets you depends on the situation.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:You can kite pets. Rock Gazelle hurts but I don't think ranger is as egregious as you're claiming now, especially with the unblockable synergy soulbeast had being trimmed.

I have to say i dont agree with you here which is strange.Pets can be kited only if the ranger does not run beast mastery which most do run.

Otherwise the pet has far-greater mobility passively than you do as a player in combat let alone ones that have dashes, leaps, blinks, etc There is no realistic kiting them at general in combat speeds.

The only way you avoid pets generally is if you have constant access to superspeed or stealth which breaks their targeting causing them to run back to the pet owner or to another target till you re appear this might be enough of a gap to make pets seem avoidable. But generally on most professions that cannot stealth often there is no kiting the pet. The pet is going to get you how much it gets you depends on the situation.

The pets are viable mostly at point blank range even with beastmastery traited because 80% of pet attacks are 1s+ cast time and with stop animation , the more skilled the opponents the harder to land any pet attack as you need to find gaps in the enemy defensive rotations and even if manage that..the rock gazelle is the only one that can deal huge power burst due to a bug when it happens...other pets can deal as much dmg as an AA from a warrior or thief..which is still good in my opinion.

The main reason why rangers are forced to get beastmastery is because Anet (apologetically) said that increasing attck/speed of core pets would cause problems with the same models used in the core game hence why HoT/PoF pets are better overall.

Pets are the ranger mechanic and they're part of the dmg not a separate entity like people want to believe, without the pets the overall dmg of rangers drop by a lot...almost by 70% , outside couple heavy hitting skills ( maul and rapid fire ) the DPS of ranger is rather lacklustre ; considering the fact that PvP offers a more controlled DPS environment, a PvE benchmark can be used more effectively to demonstrate what I am saying.

P.S I don't justify bugged attacks like rock gazelle and with that said I believe that tanky pets should offer support option for the player and only rock gazelle remains outside the spectrum and possibly bristleback, but I do expect squishy pets, that die in a couple aoe , to deal as much dmg as other profession auto-attacks in the 1-2k range ..anything less would be completely unreasonable

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:What is this 'burst' that Anet thinks condi thief has?Its a wide spread condi burst and its effective against a good number of professions that dont have great optional burst condi clear. The poison gets covered by several other condis which are not heavily damaging but most people cant slow clear enough to not get rapidly melted to death before hand. I dont think its more so the condis that are applied its more so how they are applied. Super safely with minimal risk while playing keep away.

Going full-on ape Panic Strike - dodge - Steal will just get your condis cleased by Shake it Off! or water attunement or Consume Conditions in the matter of seconds. The build is already grind 'em out -style as it stands. Unless, of course, you're +1'ing someone who's already blown their cooldowns - but in that case, Fresh Air Ele, DE, Revenant; all these builds kill people faster.

I think shake it off with 2 charges is a bit much but at the same time you have things like staff mirage so.... till that gets fixed i cant see the reason to change shake it off.Water attune clear is kind of fine imo because it requires investment its not exactly free.Consume conditions is the necromancers only burst clear with a modest cd. I mean for a class thats suppose to be the master of conditions it would be silly not to have at least one dependent self burst clear thats not an xfer that has the potential to miss or be blinded, needs a target, etc.

Fresh air ele just has slightly too much instant damage reduce it a bit and its fine.DE mostly the same problem but perhaps some stealth also needs to be looked into or stealth as a whole game wide tool needs to be reworked for competitive play. Maybe add more reveals to skills throughout the game.Rev just has too much instant damage and the this mostly only applies to herald which leaves me believe the boons are the problems here more than anything.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:@"Arheundel.6451" I disagree that holosmith is a bruiser. It's more intended for higher damages. It can go the bruiser route with some of its utilities and traits, but in general, it's made for damaging roles.

There's a difference between the initial intention of Holosmith by ArenaNet in the expansion description, and live gameplay though. According to that same original description, Scourge would be a support and Firebrand would be a burn focused spec.

Holosmith is a bruiser through and through, it has very straightforward attacks, not a lot of burst, only Photon Wall to allow it to play offensive and defensive simultaneously, no boon rip, or instantaneous movement. It goes all in to high sustained healing, high sutained damage, and hammer Warrior-esque chain-able CC. It's a textbook bruiser.

Bruiser is a useless term that at best only means having a mix of physical defense and physical offense.

And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that both Scrapper very explicitly designed to be a Bruiser and Holosmith ending up being a bruiser will always cause issues in design and giving both specializations a role/niche until holosmith is forced into a glass canon role.

Holosmith isn't a bruiser. It's a Master-Of-All.

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@"mortrialus.3062" said:Bruiser is a useless term that at best only means having a mix of physical defense and physical offense.

No, it's a useful term that actually differentiates bursty and glassy damage dealers from sustained damage & defense brawlers.

And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that both Scrapper very explicitly designed to be a Bruiser and Holosmith ending up being a bruiser will always cause issues in design and giving both specializations a role/niche until holosmith is forced into a glass canon role.

Scrapper and Holo are the exact same role, that's my entire point. The design intent is not to be that way, bro, I know. Holo will never be forced into a glass cannon role, that's nonsense. Holo damage isn't even high-reward enough by nature, such as power mesmer or deadeye. It's just such high sustain so that you can reliably overwhelm people over time with spam. If Holo was as glass cannon defensively as Deadeye or Power Mesmer, without a reliable high burst combo it'd be trashcan. Holo will never be glass cannon without extreme reworks to increase burst and decrease sustain. (EDIT: Possibly forcing Holos into Photonic Blasting Module playstyles could achieve this, instead of spammy vent exhaust assaults.) Therefore, Holo is not even fundamentally built to be a mandatory high risk high reward, it's very foundation is contrary to the intent, it's meta build is a bruiser archetype, neither high risk nor high reward.

Holosmith isn't a bruiser. It's a Master-Of-All.

You're just jumping in on a conversation only about the glass cannon vs. bruiser archetypes and inserting more "Holo is overtuned." Yeah bro, we know it's among the best bruisers.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:You can kite pets. Rock Gazelle hurts but I don't think ranger is as egregious as you're claiming now, especially with the unblockable synergy soulbeast had being trimmed.

I have to say i dont agree with you here which is strange.Pets can be kited only if the ranger does not run beast mastery which most do run.

Otherwise the pet has far-greater mobility passively than you do as a player in combat let alone ones that have dashes, leaps, blinks, etc There is no realistic kiting them at general in combat speeds.

The only way you avoid pets generally is if you have constant access to superspeed or stealth which breaks their targeting causing them to run back to the pet owner or to another target till you re appear this might be enough of a gap to make pets seem avoidable. But generally on most professions that cannot stealth often there is no kiting the pet. The pet is going to get you how much it gets you depends on the situation.

The pets are viable mostly at point blank range even with beastmastery traited because 80% of pet attacks are 1s+ cast time and with stop animation , the more skilled the opponents the harder to land any pet attack as you need to find gaps in the enemy defensive rotations and even if manage that..the rock gazelle is the only one that can deal huge power burst due to a bug when it happens...other pets can deal as much dmg as an AA from a warrior or thief..which is still good in my opinion.

The main reason why rangers are forced to get beastmastery is because Anet (apologetically) said that increasing attck/speed of core pets would cause problems with the same models used in the core game hence why HoT/PoF pets are better overall.

Pets are the ranger mechanic and they're part of the dmg not a separate entity like people want to believe, without the pets the overall dmg of rangers drop by a lot...almost by 70% , outside couple heavy hitting skills ( maul and rapid fire ) the DPS of ranger is rather lacklustre ; considering the fact that PvP offers a more controlled DPS environment, a PvE benchmark can be used more effectively to demonstrate what I am saying.

My only gripe about ranger pets is that attempting to kill the pet is not a viable strategy to reduce the rangers effectiveness (currently). The pets that are not the birds are generally as tanky as another player and can be swapped too easily on demand or revived via soul beast fusion with no punishment. In pvp or wvw if you are under attack by a ranger killing the pet should be a viable option to reducing the rangers effectiveness. But you dont really have that choice so you have to ignore the pet and just avoid its key skills for the most part.

P.S I don't justify bugged attacks like rock gazelle and with that said I believe that tanky pets should offer support option for the player and only rock gazelle remains outside the spectrum and possibly bristleback, but I do expect squishy pets, that die in a couple aoe , to deal as much dmg as other profession auto-attacks in the 1-2k range ..anything less would be completely unreasonable

Any pet that can perform a Disabling attack even more so attacks that are not commanded by the ranger do need to be made more visible imo. Some pets have these kind of things others dont.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Bruiser is a useless term that at best only means having a mix of physical defense and physical offense.

No, it's a useful term that actually differentiates bursty and glassy damage dealers from sustained damage & defense brawlers.

And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that both Scrapper
to be a Bruiser and Holosmith ending up being a bruiser will always cause issues in design and giving both specializations a role/niche until holosmith is forced into a glass canon role.

Scrapper and Holo are the exact same role, that's my entire point. The design intent is not to be that way,
bro, I know.
Holo will never be forced into a glass cannon role, that's nonsense. Holo damage isn't even high-reward enough by nature, such as power mesmer or deadeye. It's just such high sustain so that you can reliably overwhelm people over time with spam. If Holo was as glass cannon defensively as Deadeye or Power Mesmer, without a reliable high burst combo it'd be trashcan. Holo will never be glass cannon without extreme reworks to increase burst and decrease sustain. Therefore, Holo is not even fundamentally built to be high risk high reward, it's very foundation is contrary to the intent, it's meta build is a bruiser archetype, neither high risk nor high reward.

Holosmith isn't a bruiser. It's a Master-Of-All.

You're just jumping in on a conversation only about the glass cannon vs. bruiser archetypes and inserting more "Holo is overtuned."
Yeah bro, we know it's among the best bruisers.

Yeah I definitely don't think holo was meant for or should be a glass cannon by design intent. Though it probably could go that way with the that photonic blasting module trait, it doesn't see use because currently with it locking you out of toolbelt skills, it's highly flawed and definitely not a good choice to take compared to its other GM traits. But I agree with you that, in practicality and in the current use scenario, holo is definitely a more offensive bruiser, and the current iteration of scrapper is....well kind of the same, which saddens me. FeelsBadMan.

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@ZDragon.3046 said :I think this is a bit off putting for one i dont think staff damage output should be what it is period no matter how you shift it. Axe should be the go to tool for hard condi dps from mirage but very few mirages use this because of the ease of staff.Can you stop posting things on which you don't know please, like really.I'm not an other class main, I don't post other class change/suggestion like if I know their gameplay.It will be really enjoyable if people stop posting biased suggestions about things they don't know.

Mirage don't use axe not because staff is better but because axe get overnerfed and bad designed :The 3rd skill have plenty of ground bugs and half time positionnate you too far of your target to hit them while doing average direct damage and lol condi damage.The 2nd skill don't do much damage/soft cc, need to be in melee and you are a free target when you use it.The first skill has average cast to little damage, is melee.The ambush can be reflected and was nerfed hard.So the day staff do 0 damage, people will just go GS direct damage or leave mirage but if you thing they will use axe, you clearly never play an axe mirage.

Axe mirage actually applies the things you just listed. Its more active with good damage output and has higher risk and requires the mesmer to play offensivelyWho play a high risk, no reward tools ?

Also the conditions are pretty limited 2 main damaging conditions which is good because its easier to know what you should avoid and what you dont need to avoid vs staff autos which are slightly rng.Staff clone auto has a 1.75 sec delai + slow projectile moving animation for approximatively 1000 condi damage (counting the bounce). On every PvP map, it's more than easy to bait them considering the setup before they start doing some pressure.Getting hit by a few staff autos might not do much damageIt's the case. Who consider 1700 dps ((3*1000) / 1.75.) as a high pressure (less in practise because I didn't count it as condi duration.).while in other moments a few hits from staff autos might cause tons of damage.Tons of damage = how much ?Give me details please as you are a pro mesmer with data behind.

All of this while boasting a passive defensive play style with hard defensive tools on top of it that you need to force out.We haven't choice than to play passive as they over-nerfed the active (aka condi application with shatter.).

There is also the matter of the fact that staff attack bounce around meaning there is potentially no end to the condition application so long as you are trying to engage the mirage it just is constant application.I counted the bounce in my calculations.

Ideally swapping to staff should lead to a dps drop for the utility and defensive play style it provides.Thanks for proving again you have no clue about this class.What will left if you drop the utility and defensive play ?You hope to kill someone with 3 confusion stacks during 4.5 sec on a 25 sec CD or with only an obvious animation from pistol fantasm ?

It's good to everyone, please don't make suggestion for thing you don't know anything apart from the fact that they kill you someday.

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Hello,For Bias... I play a non-meta Holo and am typically a low plat solo player. Not that the tier means much given the crapshoot that match making is.

I have only ever played engineer in PVP since game begin. Most seasons, if I don't get totally hosed by match making, I end up around the same place. So Holo was no more successful for me than core, or scrapper, etc.

I think that removing stability as a means of balance is a poor choice.

1) You will exacerbate the complained about behaviour -

If your plan is to limit a holo to having to use corona burst to get stability, and it is still required that it hit the target at relatively close range, then what you've done is just made Holo's play to the hated play style of hit and run even more. Because they will have to be even more opportunistic to avoid ranged CC which they won't have a means of defending against.

You will push holo's to an even higher YOLO damage output style to compensate.

2) You will reduce general enjoyment by leveraging a known MMO no-no

Being CC juggled is not fun. Generally things that might as well have you take your hands off the keyboard and wait for 10 seconds for it to be over.... is not fun. Balancing by forcing this onto a class is just going to reduce game play enjoyment.

If you ask my opinion, it is the combination of rifle and Holo that make for the problem. The combination of jump shot, and the knock back available, blunderbuss and Then Holo mode allow the holo to do too much juggling, with a big 5k jump shot area finish.

To do what holo does is a large risk, they melt under focused attention, they can't stand on a point in general mele, the meta build isn't great at dealing with a serious condition applier. Essentially what annoys people is that these attributes force a meta Holo to run off, reset and ambush again. The thief has the same sort of pattern and draws similar ire.

As for the effectiveness of a holo, when I deal with them I basically have to get out of the way of the first big barrage, if I have cooldowns and reflexes up to do it I then have to chase them down. The problem being they often pick a time when I'm on cool down to attack and then I'm toast. A warrior is currently a tough match up off node against a holo, a thief is quite difficult to deal with, Mesmers can drop you, a good Ele can kite but not usually kill. I do well against guards. I do passably against revs having a slight advantage. With Necros its very one sided. If the reaper gets the drop on me, it's game over and vice versa.

I know there's a lot of holo hate, but I'm not seeing more than 1 on the opposing team typically and they aren't seeming to draw the best stats. The meta version is very annoying though because of its gank and run nature... and if I want to deal with one I pretty much have to specifically bait and hunt it. A well done thief I haven't got a chance against.

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