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Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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if nerfing scourge makes boons to strong, well I think boons and cleanses need nerfs regardless. The game has definitely power crept like crazy, there's too much damage and people die too fast to really bring out much depth to the combat. I think boons should be nerfed overall anyways since a lot of it just feels built in, rather then consciously achieved (holo,Guardian,Mesmer chaos trait line). Nerfing boons will definitely help bring down the power level. It just needs to be done carefully to not make core classes unviable.

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Most of these changes are pretty good.

Sigil of agility especially had to get nerfed. One of the rare instances of a PvP sigil being more powerful in some ways than its PvE counterpart for seemingly no reason.

-I think people asking for additional holo nerfs may have forgotten that there was a small window of time after crystal config got nerfed and before elixer U got added stab where Holo was very balanced. Being able to reliably interrupt forge spam greatly reduces the most annoying part about the spec.-Condi thief is mainly just too passive carried. Reducing poison duration is a step in the direction of bringing it down, but really the number of different condis that can be inflicted with passives needs a look at.-Mirage just needs a rework.-Rampage changes are interesting. Seems like the damage will now have come from auto-cleaving instead of just spamming CCs and getting free kills from doing so. Will change how it is played for sure.-Staff thief was in all honesty a "hidden build". It has always been good and it's kind of funny people are just now realizing this.

On the classes not touched:-Core guardian is very balanced right now, but firebrand especially the symbol version seems a bit too strong. That a support build is also capable of taking 1v1s is a bit much.-Rev is also in a better spot. High damage, but easy to interrupt. I think Herald damage mods could use a slight nerf ( Forceful persistence is a bit much ) and cleansing channel really should be 2 condis.-Ranger is mostly fine. Soulbeast has slightly too much stab ( In general it seems that an answer to a lot of power creep has been to give too many classes free stability, which really just adds to the spam. ), that's about it.-Ele, same problem as Ranger. The 70%+ stab uptime is out of hand. There is a fine line between popping stab in anticipation of a CC and just always having it for easymode freecasting.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:You can kite pets. Rock Gazelle hurts but I don't think ranger is as egregious as you're claiming now, especially with the unblockable synergy soulbeast had being trimmed.

I have to say i dont agree with you here which is strange.Pets can be kited only if the ranger does not run beast mastery which most do run.

Otherwise the pet has far-greater mobility passively than you do as a player in combat let alone ones that have dashes, leaps, blinks, etc There is no realistic kiting them at general in combat speeds.

The only way you avoid pets generally is if you have constant access to superspeed or stealth which breaks their targeting causing them to run back to the pet owner or to another target till you re appear this might be enough of a gap to make pets seem avoidable. But generally on most professions that cannot stealth often there is no kiting the pet. The pet is going to get you how much it gets you depends on the situation.

The pets are viable mostly at point blank range even with beastmastery traited because 80% of pet attacks are 1s+ cast time and with stop animation , the more skilled the opponents the harder to land any pet attack as you need to find gaps in the enemy defensive rotations and even if manage that..the rock gazelle is the only one that can deal huge power burst due to a bug when it happens...other pets can deal as much dmg as an AA from a warrior or thief..which is still good in my opinion.

The main reason why rangers are forced to get beastmastery is because Anet (apologetically) said that increasing attck/speed of core pets would cause problems with the same models used in the core game hence why HoT/PoF pets are better overall.

Pets are the ranger mechanic and they're part of the dmg not a separate entity like people want to believe, without the pets the overall dmg of rangers drop by a lot...almost by 70% , outside couple heavy hitting skills ( maul and rapid fire ) the DPS of ranger is rather lacklustre ; considering the fact that PvP offers a more controlled DPS environment, a PvE benchmark can be used more effectively to demonstrate what I am saying.

My only gripe about ranger pets is that attempting to kill the pet is not a viable strategy to reduce the rangers effectiveness (currently). The pets that are not the birds are generally as tanky as another player and can be swapped too easily on demand or revived via soul beast fusion with no punishment. In pvp or wvw if you are under attack by a ranger killing the pet should be a viable option to reducing the rangers effectiveness. But you dont really have that choice so you have to ignore the pet and just avoid its key skills for the most part.

P.S I don't justify bugged attacks like rock gazelle and with that said I believe that tanky pets should offer support option for the player and only rock gazelle remains outside the spectrum and possibly bristleback, but I do expect squishy pets, that die in a couple aoe , to deal as much dmg as other profession auto-attacks in the 1-2k range ..anything less would be completely unreasonable

Any pet that can perform a Disabling attack even more so attacks that are not commanded by the ranger do need to be made more visible imo. Some pets have these kind of things others dont.

I'd love to see more DPS oriented pets like bird/felines where they're squishy but do hit hard or utility pets like bears/moa and some canine that do far less dmg but arguably ( need some buffs here ) offer more support utility . As I have explained pets are the ranger mechanic and asking to disable another profession mechanic for a limited amount of time it's not really an option..unless you allow ranger to effectively stop mesmers from casting clones for 60s or prevent a thief from restealthing or stopping a warrior from gaining adrenaline.

I can understand people asking to remove tanky pets with DPS as that should not be allowed but asking to easily kill pets and leave rangers helpless for 20s+ it's not really an argument, it sounds more like a bad joke than a good idea

well people kill mesmer clones in one hit and they can't shatter, mesmer can only resummon it easy if they trait for it, why rangers should be different and pets can't die having 40k hp? rangers have a backup pet already and they should put a cd of 60s after the pet dies to ress.

today i was playing pvp and i killed the ranger and he left me with 20% of my life, i was trying to finish him and the pet was stunning me while the ranger was downed, the pet killed me then the pet ressed him because my class don't have a stun while downed, but he could only do that because in the middle of the fight i was not able to kill the pet because he would ress just be changing it, tell me how is that fair?

1) no pet has 40k HPThis is true but they have enough where in most cases the ranger can swap it out the moment they see someone attempting to kill it or fuse with it which completely invalidates the idea of even attempting to do so.2) there is already a 60s CD for dead petsNot when used with soul beast which is an odd ball factor3) comparing pets to clones is absurd...maybe they should add a 60s CD for each clone destroyed alsoI do agree with this though pets should not be compared to clones. Cones have a wider number of effects they can be used for on command of the caster where as pets are pretty standard from the moment you see it you know mostly what it can potentially do even if you cant always read when it will do it. That said pets are in my personal opinion too tanky in general.The birds are fine as far as damage goes and they are super squishThe felines some of which are ok i think they are just under used in general thoughBears are not tanky enough to draw peoples attention out side of soulbeast for damage immunitiesSmokescale despite it supposedly being equivalent to a bear in terms of stats has far more damage due to its skill kit and offers much more utility if not too much utility to rangers in general with they damage they have. Its why the pet is so over used almost every ranger build uses it.Wolves/canines are a nice mix but need more tells on their non command cc attacksPigs are good idea of a utility type pet that come with big risk for the reward. (as anyone can pick up your plasma if you are careless)The deer is a bullet bil that needs to be removed from the game. LOL

It's very easy for thieves/mesmer/revs and generally any class with high evasion to completely kite the pet in the vast majority of cases, you keep forgetting what I have stated before about buffing pet movement speed, the
devs cannot do it because it would affect the core game and reason why HoT pets are more resilient
....there was an old thread in the ranger forum where the devs acknowledge the fact that path issue is a critical issue , rangers have been waiting for fix on pets since launch..if anything you should expect buffs to core pets as they're in shamble

But beast mastery does exactly this through a trait. The beast mastery line improves all ranger pets base movement speed (unless you mean attacking speed) which swiftness can be stacked ontop of. Ive watched pets move around with basically perma super speed the only thing that kites them is something that teleports a ton or has stealth which all the things you listed have plentiful access too.

Smokescale has seen its damage nerfed by well over 70% already...really the thing does a total of 2k dmg when you count all the hits on a medium armor target

Its damage is still pretty solid considering it has a shdowstepping attack and the smoke aoe which is massive utility to the ranger overall smoke scale is technically meta or too good it has been for a long while now. Im not saying it should be nerfed im just saying it does ALOT more than most pets even most of the new PoF pets are not equal in terms to it. I suppose if you count the buggy deer.

They should just move the dmg from pets to ranger and change pets into utility skills...something the rangers have been requesting for years

With the way the game is right now i dont agree. Ranger dps is already quite high even with just base core ranger as its probably the 3rd best core profession in the game behind guardian and warrior.

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@bravan.3876 said:

Reflect kitten you over hard.condi cleanse kitten you over hard.proj block kitten you over hard.no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

This is what i was thinking how can one complain about projectile reflects/blocks when that effects every projectile including staff projectiles which kind of negates the whole purpose as to calling them out.

I dont understand how someone can be so justified to tell me i dont know anything about x profession and should not respond by someone who is ideally passively suggesting that their weapons projectiles should not be reflectable or blockable per is the standard for most projectiles in the game. As well as the fact that they dont have time to wait out conditions while playing one of the best high pressure high application condition set ups the game has to offer in competitive right now. This is a bit mind numbing to me.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Confession: I never stopped playing axe, even after it was heavily nerfed and made clunkier (not only did they severely nerf damage, they made it so you have to turn and face your target for the ambush to activate). Still playing axe today, mostly because I find the active, though riskier playstyle 100x more fun than passive staff play which I find extremely boring. Fun > rating for me.

Just bumping this in agreement. I respect active mirage mains that can use Axe fearlessly, doubly so if they're power oriented.

@shadowpass.4236 said:Please look at the double proc reveal from Lock On. Keep the cc proc and remove the on-hit proc. It currently gives 12 seconds of reveal + fury + 20 stacks of vulnerability every 25 seconds and is completely insane. The cooldown should also be increased to 30 seconds with the single reveal proc.

Agrees in thief

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@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:I respect active mirage mains that can use Axe fearlessly, doubly so if they're power oriented.Axe is not bad as you can think (condi with condi duration) and absolutely trash as power weapon (it even was nerfed in power portion because aneD know it did so much power damage! /s) and inferior in every single way compared to sword and has no synergy with IH... its like if u would "respect" powernecromancer using scepter

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

This is great, absolutely great. Finally! Thanks Cal and balance team!

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@Ovark.2514 said:Holo is only able to really be as obscene as it is because utilities like elixir s allow it to rarely, if ever, be vulnerable.

@reikken.4961 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:Holo is only able to really be as obscene as it is because utilities like elixir s allow it to rarely, if ever, be vulnerable.

That and heal turret, which I think is an even bigger offender. Shorter cast time than almost any other heal skill in the game, making it virtually impossible to interrupt, while being actually even stronger than average and with a shorter than average cooldown. It's always enabled engineer to get away with things other classes can't.

Everyone is focusing on the core engi sustain skills, but those skills were in the game for years and years and were mostly balanced. They certainly weren't game-breaking (elixir, turret), and they already faced nerfs.

Why are they suddenly a problem on Holo? Simple. Holo gets ridiculous damage + CC for free with its elite spec and gives up basically nothing to get it.

When core engi or scrapper had above-average sustain, it was fine because they didn't have much damage pressure for the opponent. Thus, fights were a more drawn-out affair where the engi tried to gradually win through CC and attrition. Holo gets to have all that sustain and damage too.

So is the problem with Healing Turret and Elixir S?

No!

The problem is Photon Forge and its lack of any meaningful tradeoff.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Confession: I never stopped playing axe, even after it was heavily nerfed and made clunkier (not only did they severely nerf damage, they made it so you have to turn and face your target for the ambush to activate). Still playing axe today, mostly because I find the active, though riskier playstyle 100x more fun than passive staff play which I find extremely boring. Fun > rating for me.

Just bumping this in agreement. I respect active mirage mains that can use Axe fearlessly, doubly so if they're power oriented.

I just hope all the soon-to-be-nerfed staff Mirages don't bandwagon and get my axe nerfed more or make the playerbase wise to it. Right now its main advantage might be the element of surprise.^^

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Ah, I have to comment.

I agree with most to all of the proposed changes. Some of the Mirage nerfs may be pushing Miages into an even more bunker-oriented role, though. You guys might want to be careful and maybe give compensation on previously done nerfs to active shatters.

Good communication, good comprehension from the team, good job guys!

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"DrClutchMcSwagDaddy.9072"

You're missing a few of them.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_finisherhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_finisher

The Prot Holo build also has access to Rumble, Acid Bomb, and Detonate Thumper Turret as well.

The build can do upwards of 6-8 or so leaps/blasts in a single water field iirc with most of them on a cycle time of less than 20 seconds.

6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field that lasts 3 seconds, wow, OP! My only question is how do you fit 6-8 seconds of casts & aftercasts into 3 seconds?

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"DrClutchMcSwagDaddy.9072"

You're missing a few of them.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_finisherhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_finisher

The Prot Holo build also has access to Rumble, Acid Bomb, and Detonate Thumper Turret as well.

The build can do upwards of 6-8 or so leaps/blasts in a single water field iirc with most of them on a cycle time of less than 20 seconds.

I don't think prot holo can do 6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field, it's not possible with cast times and the like. And that's not what makes prot holo strong. What makes it strong are a couple things.1) the protection up time per interval (which is 2s uptime per 1s interval of application).2) The amount of proccs due to the duration of the field (8s uptime of the arena field with 1s intervals for boon application, 12s due to the 4s increase to its base interval at or above 50% heat).

These 2 things above coupled together is what makes prot holo a strong node holder as well as an anti-condition type of build, thanks to anti-corrosion plating synergy with hard light arena alone.The fix for this would be to decrease protection uptime as well as decrease the amount of time the arena field is up. I think a sweet spot would be 5-6s base, 2s more at or above 50% heat.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi again,Updates to the previous list:

  • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:

  • Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.
  • Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.
  • Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.
  • Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.
  • Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.
  • Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.
  • Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.
  • Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.
  • Purity of Purpose: Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is nuts.
  • Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.
  • Lock On: Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.
  • Overcharged Shot: Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up. Reducing the Heat Loss on Vent Exhaust will also make Photon Forge as a mechanic an actual mechanic that requires more attention to use.

The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

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@bravan.3876 said:

Reflect kitten you over hard.condi cleanse kitten you over hard.proj block kitten you over hard.no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

@"ZDragon.3046" said :Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.so itssupper whammed.1 its melee2 its prjectile based3 its multi hit ( retal )4 its condi.its just asking to get fucked over

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi again,Updates to the previous list:
  • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:
  • Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.
  • Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.
  • Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.
  • Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.
  • Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.
  • Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.
  • Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.
  • Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.
  • Purity of Purpose: Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is
    nuts
    .
  • Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.
  • Lock On: Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.
  • Overcharged Shot: Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up.

The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

This honestly seems like a more thought out holo tune down imo

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"DrClutchMcSwagDaddy.9072"

You're missing a few of them.

The Prot Holo build also has access to Rumble, Acid Bomb, and Detonate Thumper Turret as well.

The build can do upwards of 6-8 or so leaps/blasts in a single water field iirc with most of them on a cycle time of less than 20 seconds.

6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field that lasts 3 seconds, wow, OP! My only question is how do you fit 6-8 seconds of casts & aftercasts into 3 seconds?

"I said a single water field"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

At least that's how I see this twisted logic going. Also by this logic quite simply holo is one of the best healers in the game because each blast can heal 5 people for 1,320*5 = 6,600 and you multiply this by 3 blasts on a 20s CD to get 990hp/s!!!!!1

Crazy strong!

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

Reflect kitten you over hard.condi cleanse kitten you over hard.proj block kitten you over hard.no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

@"ZDragon.3046" said :Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.so itssupper whammed.1 its melee2 its prjectile based3 its multi hit ( retal )4 its condi.its just asking to get kitten over

I can only repeat, i thought axe is bad after last nerfs but from lately trying it was better than expected. I mean you cannot just switch from staff to axe with everything else the same, you need to adjust the build a little bit and your playstyle too but after a bit of training it felt like a decent choice.

As for Holo, most things are mentioned already i would like to see too (not everything that got ever mentioned should be done ofc) but what i miss until now is a better animation on Rifle knockback. It is barely avoidable right now.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

Reflect kitten you over hard.condi cleanse kitten you over hard.proj block kitten you over hard.no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

@"ZDragon.3046" said :Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.so itssupper whammed.1 its melee2 its prjectile based3 its multi hit ( retal )4 its condi.its just asking to get kitten over

But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisinglyGuardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

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So.... To nerf Holosmith, we nerf core skills and traits....

CLAP CLAP CLAP

Definetly this helps to bulld diversity (irony off), removing Elixir U stab leaves Non-Holo builds with any reliable source of that boon while holo still have strong Stability uptime.... That change kick out any chance to come back for other Engi specs.

Not the best way approach to the problem. Holo need nerfs, but that can be done without hit core and scrapper that are far down on the ladder.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi again,Updates to the previous list:
  • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:
  • Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.
  • Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.
  • Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.
  • Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.
  • Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.
  • Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.
  • Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.
  • Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.
  • Purity of Purpose: Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is
    nuts
    .
  • Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.
  • Lock On: Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.
  • Overcharged Shot: Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up. Reducing the Heat Loss on Vent Exhaust will also make Photon Forge as a mechanic an actual mechanic that requires more attention to use.

The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

  • Nerfing Healing Turret would hurt core engi too much.
  • Nerfing Elixir S would hurt core engi too much.
  • I somewhat agree with Overcharged Shot though. Animations are good - but take the precast animation time off the self-knockdown CC time to balance it out. The trade-off for OC-shot being instant is supposed to be the self-knockdown. Alternatively, make it so that stability doesn't prevent the self-CC.

I get that no one even bothers to think about non-meta specs any more, but if this game is ever going to have build diversity again, these things have to be considered. Otherwise everything is just balanced around the OP-Elite-Spec-Du-Jour..

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@coro.3176 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi again,Updates to the previous list:
  • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:
  • Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.
  • Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.
  • Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.
  • Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.
  • Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.
  • Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.
  • Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.
  • Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.
  • Purity of Purpose: Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is
    nuts
    .
  • Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.
  • Lock On: Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.
  • Overcharged Shot: Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up. Reducing the Heat Loss on Vent Exhaust will also make Photon Forge as a mechanic an actual mechanic that requires more attention to use.

The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

  • Nerfing Healing Turret would hurt core engi too much.
  • Nerfing Elixir S would hurt core engi too much.
  • I somewhat agree with Overcharged Shot though. Animations are good - but take the precast animation time off the self-knockdown CC time to balance it out. The trade-off for OC-shot being instant is supposed to be the self-knockdown. Alternatively, make it so that stability doesn't prevent the self-CC.

I get that no one even bothers to think about non-meta specs any more, but if this game is ever going to have build diversity again, these things have to be considered. Otherwise everything is just balanced around the OP-Elite-Spec-Du-Jour..

Core Engineer needs serious, serious kit reworks and some tweaks to pistol. That's no justification for certain extremely overtuned skills and traits.

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@coro.3176 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi again,Updates to the previous list:
  • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:
  • Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.
  • Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.
  • Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.
  • Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.
  • Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.
  • Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.
  • Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.
  • Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.
  • Purity of Purpose: Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is
    nuts
    .
  • Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.
  • Lock On: Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.
  • Overcharged Shot: Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up. Reducing the Heat Loss on Vent Exhaust will also make Photon Forge as a mechanic an actual mechanic that requires more attention to use.

The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

  • Nerfing Healing Turret would hurt core engi too much.
  • Nerfing Elixir S would hurt core engi too much.
  • I somewhat agree with Overcharged Shot though. Animations are good - but take the precast animation time off the self-knockdown CC time to balance it out. The trade-off for OC-shot being instant is supposed to be the self-knockdown. Alternatively, make it so that stability doesn't prevent the self-CC.

I get that no one even bothers to think about non-meta specs any more, but if this game is ever going to have build diversity again, these things have to be considered. Otherwise everything is just balanced around the OP-Elite-Spec-Du-Jour..

I get that core engi needs love but that does not mean it can not have overperforming skills or traits.

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