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Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP


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I know that these aren't the final posts and I say what I saw is perfectly fine even though I am a warrior player I understand that rampage was off the hooks. But I think you need to go look at power Mesmer its so close to being able to be played and not feeling like a handy cap and maybe do something similar to what you guys did for ele and buff the miners and 0 power Mesmer could be played again. But when doing so don't accidentally buff Condi mes its already in its Owen place that is a bit op but can be easy to tip into the trash can and I don't want that I just want something like buffs to domination, dueling, and mirage minors to boost the viability of a power spec for PVP

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If mirage cloak gets voted out of PVP(I sure hope not), PLEASE please please just make it for PVP solely. Mirage cloak as an active dodge in PVE is the backbone of its class mechanic, mobility and weapon interactions. I entirely understand the frustration of fighting mesmers in general, especially a mirage, but that is why I play one lol I wanted to learn how to kill them so I played the class thoroughly. I do not struggle fighting them now because I know how they function. Some of the frustration that some people feel is simply not knowing game mechanics and timing strategies. Clones definitely need to be toned down though.

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WHY ARE WE NERFING CORE MESMER AGAIN WHEN MIRAGE IS OVERPERFORMING????Do you understand that staff will become unplayable for core and chrono even though it's not even good bvut people enjoy those builds?Why can't you nerf mirage traits for once?The mesmer as a whole keeps suffering because mirage keeps getting nerfed yet we're not touching the mechanics of mirage itself.How about infinite horizoon nerf instead?Adjust ambush skills to do less damage?Why does this keep happening and how is it good design?YET AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Condi ThiefThe main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

  • Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

I still believe you guys should stop "dodging" the issue and just nerf the condi application on doge spam once and for all.Nerfing those skill not only nerf condi S/D, but also every other Condi build, like P/D, for example.

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

IMO. Keep the stability and nerf the quickness.You guys had already nerfed other sources of stability before, didn't solve the problem, why nerf more?

RampageRampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

  • Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
    • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

Isn't that too big of a nerf hammer?Mind me but those are the only usefull skills that Rampage even has. Nerf those 3 and we might as well just use banner or signet.

Imo, nerf boulder and kick only. Keep Seismic as it is for at very LEAST some burst damage. As AA on rampager is just terrible.

Warrior’s CunningWe’re making an adjustment to bring Warrior’s Cunning more in-line with other damage traits.

  • Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.

That's also a heavy hand. Nerf a little now and a bit more later if needed.

Staff ThiefAs mentioned the other day, we want to revisit the recent change to Debilitating Arc for the next balance update. There are still concerns about putting it back to 4 initiative, but it doesn’t really make sense for it to coexist with Vault at 6. We’re reducing the cost to 5 while making some minor adjustments to Quick Pockets and Staff Master.

  • Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only
  • Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only

Seems good.You could also remove the dodge frames from Vault. Its already a very strong leap with damage and AoE, it never needed the dodge frames.

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Keep up the good work. Exactly what is needed gets nerfed. This is a step in the direction to make ALL classes viable again.I still miss fb getting tuned down but we’ll see.

And if some changes are not good, they can get changed again. At least something is happening more frequently than every few months and the CMs communicate with us beforehand!

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Can Prime Light Beam be skillshot and not track people

@Ajaxx.3157 said:Nerfing Rampage into the ground is fine ( even if its way to much imo ), but it still going to be the ONLY elite to take.When is elite signet getting looked at? its SOOOO dated and worse by a long long way compared to any of the other signets that aren't elite.

You are right on that one. Before everyone was running rage signet just to have something and was weak passive, the boons on that one are pointless everyone is trowing around boons anyway, maybe it should give the effects of the other signets when activated and the passive needs some oomph. Banner and WoD seem to be more suited for group play and dont fit the role of dueler, banner boons are kinda bad also.Headbutt is okish ish, maybe it should be unblockable just for the lolz and it stuns you anyway so.

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@SoulSin.5682 said:Seems good.You could also remove the dodge frames from Vault. Its already a very strong leap with damage and AoE, it never needed the dodge frames.Absolutely not! Vault was never an issue at all for the last 4+ years and it was not the issue in the staff/staff setup that won the last at.This suggestion is akin to saying warrior gs 3 could stand to have its evade frames removed because it is a fine skill that moves you a distance and is a whirl finisher; or ele dagger 3 in fire could stand to lose evasion frames because it is a fine skill without it.

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Looks like a good start to some of the worst offenders.

I like the approach of reducing Holo stability rather than damage. Having Holo be high risk, high reward, is good to distinguish it from Scrapper.

99% nerf to Rampage damage seems a bit harsh, 50% would have been a respectable first pass I think.

The one outlier I'm disappointed not to see addressed is the perma-25-might warriors are running around with while requiring basically no setup/combo on their part. It's frustrating to mitigate, kite, mitigate, kite their hits, and then a single whirldwind attack with 25 might is 90% my hp bar gone.

I really don't think any class should be able to achieve 25 might by itself. Or at least not without having to go heavy into combo'ing fire-fields.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi Everyone,General

  • Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel

I'm glad it's going way. Something like 70% of builds were running it to cheese out one animation or another.

Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

  • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Phantasmal Warlock:
    • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
    • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
  • Chaos Vortex:
    • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
    • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
    • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

I'm glad Phantasmal Warlock and Illusionary Counter are going down to 1 Phantasm and Clone respectively.

Though I think it makes more sense for for Infinite Horizon Ambush clones on Chaos Vortex to have 50% reduced duration, but not the Mirage itself. This makes it consistent with other Mirage Ambush attacks like the Axe and the Scepter, which have 50% reduced stacks and 50% reduced duration from the clones respectively. I think that's overkill. At it's maximum potential not counting silliness like Torment and Burning duration sigils, it's a 3,539 damage attack with a full 1s cast time, and only .5s can be covered with Mirage Cloak.

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

I feel like you guys are still REALLY bizarrely gun shy about nerfing Holosmith compared to what other over performing builds receive. Which is baffling because there's a solid argument to be made that it's the single best build for Ranked Conquest right now.

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While we are reducing efficacy of skills by over 99% let's take a look at firebrand, core necro, and power mirage too; who could all do with some reduction in power. Additionally, if we are sharply reducing the damage output (which I think is a good idea) then we had absolutely better be looking at the defensive output of some builds that regularly see use.

Super appreciate the balance preview, this is infinitely more interaction with the dev team than we have had in months and months and months.

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I totally understand, that with removing the "Sigil of Agility" but the problem is, it will hit Builds that are depending on this Sigill and they are not meta.When u going to do it look to buff those build to safe them. Espaciley Boonbeast, a Soulbeast Build what deppends on Boons us that Sigill in combi with own of the trait.

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@foste.3098 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:Seems good.You could also remove the dodge frames from Vault. Its already a very strong leap with damage and AoE, it never needed the dodge frames.Absolutely not! Vault was never an issue at all for the last 4+ years and it was not the issue in the staff/staff setup that won the last at.This suggestion is akin to saying warrior gs 3 could stand to have its evade frames removed because it is a fine skill that moves you a distance and is a whirl finisher; or ele dagger 3 in fire could stand to lose evasion frames because it is a fine skill without it.

Did u really think the community would ever stop with their nerf thief whine's? lol

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So you are going to destroy Mirage like you did Chrono? I don't know why are going out of your way to try and make so many classes unfun to play rather then actually trying to balance things but you are just driving people away from the game.

No this isn't whine about "op classes" being nerfed, this is a PvE player asking you to stop ruining PvE for no reason.

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@Levetty.1279 said:If you destroy mirage cloak like you did Chrono, I'm done with the game. I'm a PVE player and Mesmer is the only class I have fun with anymore and every patch feels like they are going out of their way to make the Mesmer and one random other class mechanically unfun to play.

Bro, this changes are for pvp only i think O_o

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Regarding Staff - sure I can get behind damage nerfs.

But when you say "pushing it more toward a utility kit" - I'm sorry but there's not much on this weapon that can be considered utility anymore - mobility on 2 and a ground target single aoe daze now on 5.

Staff has always been carried by 2 and 5, otherwise being a 1 spam weapon. Now 5 doesn't offer much in terms of control either as one can just facetank the minor condis after the initial daze tick.

I'm all for it being moved further towards utility - but what kind of utility? Because it doesn't provide much utility right now.

Probably the main problem here is Staff 4 - this is a complete waste of a skill slot since chaos armour got nerfed ages ago, and really should be reworked in some kind of additional utility for the weapon - whether control or support of some kind.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

RampageRampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

  • Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
    • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

I'm sorry, but are you really still working at eradicating engineers from PvP? Elixir U is the only usable stability there is for a drunken scrapper (which actually lets you still use skills while it's up), which you forced engineers into with the reduction to paper thin nothings two balance patches ago. Rampage is the ONLY mildly usable elite that a drunken scrapper has, and on top of that it is triggered randomly and therefor completely unreliable - you usually get twister mode which is as useful as a paper bag. And that's supposed to be an elite. Rampage isn't a "win button" either, you're not invulnerable while rampaging, and most classes know how to counter it. It's super easy to counter it even. So bringing that elite... "Elite" randomly triggered skill to 0.01 is just... dumb. And Holosmiths, I used to play one before being forced into drunken scrapper. Sure the class can be annoying, but they're no brutes either these days, not like they were two balance patches ago - and even then, if you know what you're doing, they're not hard to counter either, just annoying. I just can't believe you're going after engineers again. Again. Good grief.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

  • Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP onlyHow about making this trait only apply when swapping to a different weapon set? So for example it would give the full 3 initiative when used to swap from staff to dagger, but would give nothing when swapping from staff to staff. It's already rarely used outside of very niche builds. I don't think it needs a nerf in normal cases. It might even stand to be buffed with this proposed restriction. It would also be a heavier and much more targeted nerf, which is typically much better.

  • Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.I really think this trait would be fine if the 50% barrier damage increase were just made to apply to the barrier only instead of being a raw damage multiplier anytime someone has barrier of any amount. i.e. a 7k damage attack hitting a 2k barrier does 8k damage (2k + 5k --> 3k + 5k (6k damage to health)). Alternatively, to nerf it further, capping the increased damage to the barrier value. so 2k to the barrier + 5k to health --> 2k to the barrier (1333 of the unboosted damage) + 5667 to health = 7667 total damage

we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

  • Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP onlyIf the goal is making it more grindy rather than bursty, I'd think reducing the maximum number of spider venom stacks would be better. Also gives people more time to counter by throwing out their cleanses. After 4-5 seconds (3 seconds + extra poison duration) you've usually already cleansed it anyway, if you haven't already died to a few seconds of 18 stacks of poison or whatever. Plus it would nerf the burst without impacting builds that use the shadow arts trait to repeatedly stack spider venom and apply it to wear people down over time.

Also +1 to the suggestion of making the chaos vortex nerf clone-only. It's pretty inconsistent that it's the only one where clones do the full damage.

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