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Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

Cal Cohen.2358

By Cal Cohen.2358
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ZDragon.3046

ZDragon.3046

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

So you are saying that burst skill is supposed to deal more damage while also being faster, is that correct?I simply tried to translate his words more clearly for you, I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash.

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ZDragon.3046

ZDragon.3046

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

So you are saying that burst skill is supposed to deal more damage while also being faster, is that correct?Yes, Power burst skills are suppose to do deal more "immediate" damage which generally happens quickly in the time it takes for the skill to complete.

This is not how condition damage is suppose to function especially from 1 skill. For condition damage to start outclassing power burst damage you generally need several skills to land applying multiple stacks in some cases of multiple conditions and you will eventually reach a point where (if not cleansed) that damage is doing more damage per tick than what burst damage allows in its short intervals but this damage is generally should not be immediate which is why conditional builds offer more sustain (in most cases) than power builds. Because you need the extra time for your conditions to do damage.

But if the game is reaching a point where that condition damage is acting more like power burst where the damage is ramping quick and immediately being equal to or outclassing power damage while letting the condition user keep the extra sustain thats a problem.

I simply tried to translate his words more clearly for you, I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash.

I dont think confusing images is trash its still got some meat to the skill but its certainly not hitting for 8-10k anymore which it shouldn't be when the confusion potential is there. Necro scepter there use to be very similar in regards to dealing high amounts of power damage the only difference was that it was in a slow single hit. Anet removed this and replace that power damage with torment instead this was in the same patch that initially nerfed ice bow on ele long time ago.

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

So you are saying that burst skill is supposed to deal more damage while also being faster, is that correct?I simply tried to translate his words more clearly for you, I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash.

It's about what it's doing in conjunction with everything else on the class. A Necro axe strike should deal a lot of damage, because he can't combo a ton of other damage sources while using it. A Mirage with w/e weapon he has, already has a gaggle of illusions & phantasms dealing lethal attrition damage at all times. You can't simply compare a single weapon skill to a single weapon skill. It's about what the class is doing as a whole.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

So you are saying that burst skill is supposed to deal more damage while also being faster, is that correct?I simply tried to translate his words more clearly for you, I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash.

It's about what it's doing in conjunction with everything else on the class. A Necro axe strike should deal a lot of damage, because he can't combo a ton of other damage sources while using it. A Mirage with w/e weapon he has, already has a gaggle of illusions & phantasms dealing lethal attrition damage at all times. You can't simply compare a single weapon skill to a single weapon skill. It's about what the class is doing as a whole.

I understand that, this is what i ment by " I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash "when counting scepter 3 damage, compared to rapid/claws you have to account for potential shatters that can be done, for clone autos, for jaunt or mantra.thats why it has to have shit damage.

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Leonidrex.5649

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

So you are saying that burst skill is supposed to deal more damage while also being faster, is that correct?Yes, Power burst skills are suppose to do deal more "immediate" damage which generally happens quickly in the time it takes for the skill to complete.

This is not how condition damage is suppose to function especially from 1 skill. For condition damage to start outclassing power burst damage you generally need several skills to land applying multiple stacks in some cases of multiple conditions and you will eventually reach a point where (if not cleansed) that damage is doing more damage per tick than what burst damage allows in its short intervals but this damage is generally should not be immediate which is why conditional builds offer more sustain (in most cases) than power builds. Because you need the extra time for your conditions to do damage.

But if the game is reaching a point where that condition damage is acting more like power burst where the damage is ramping quick and immediately being equal to or outclassing power damage while letting the condition user keep the extra sustain thats a problem.

I simply tried to translate his words more clearly for you, I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash.

I dont think confusing images is trash its still got some meat to the skill but its certainly not hitting for 8-10k anymore which it shouldn't be when the confusion potential is there. Necro scepter there use to be very similar in regards to dealing high amounts of power damage the only difference was that it was in a slow single hit. Anet removed this and replace that power damage with torment instead this was in the same patch that initially nerfed ice bow on ele long time ago.

I will ask again so that everyone can see and be sure, you are saying that power burst skill, should deal MORE damage instantly, then similar condition skill over LONG duration ?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

So you are saying that burst skill is supposed to deal more damage while also being faster, is that correct?Yes, Power burst skills are suppose to do deal more "immediate" damage which generally happens quickly in the time it takes for the skill to complete.

This is not how condition damage is suppose to function especially from 1 skill. For condition damage to start outclassing power burst damage you generally need several skills to land applying multiple stacks in some cases of multiple conditions and you will eventually reach a point where (if not cleansed) that damage is doing more damage per tick than what burst damage allows in its short intervals but this damage is generally should not be immediate which is why conditional builds offer more sustain (in most cases) than power builds. Because you need the extra time for your conditions to do damage.

But if the game is reaching a point where that condition damage is acting more like power burst where the damage is ramping quick and immediately being equal to or outclassing power damage while letting the condition user keep the extra sustain thats a problem.

I simply tried to translate his words more clearly for you, I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash.

I dont think confusing images is trash its still got some meat to the skill but its certainly not hitting for 8-10k anymore which it shouldn't be when the confusion potential is there. Necro scepter there use to be very similar in regards to dealing high amounts of power damage the only difference was that it was in a slow single hit. Anet removed this and replace that power damage with torment instead this was in the same patch that initially nerfed ice bow on ele long time ago.

I will ask again so that everyone can see and be sure, you are saying that power burst skill, should deal MORE damage instantly, then similar condition skill over LONG duration ?

Yes and No because of how you wrote that statement as it reads a bit of a loaded or misdirecting question.

Yes, power weapons should do more immediate / direct damage over the course of what ever it takes to activate and complete that skill or combo of power skills than condition skills.No, power based skills should not be doing more damage than condition skills with the damaging condition being applied damaging over a "LONG" duration even more so if multiple skills which apply damaging conditions are used. (Long is the key word here.)

The issue is the long duration part. Conditions on quite a few professions right now can be applied in such a way that they damage heavily over a "SHORT" duration even if the conditions are going to last for quite a while and is close to exceeding the damage of power burst. This is also is why people use the terms "insta melting" when they get hit by condi attcks. Because its not happening over a LONG duration but a SHORT one.Its also why peoples kits are loaded with condition clear right now.

BasicallyShould necros axe do more immediate damage thant mesmer scepter confusing images regardless of both of their cast times?Yes

Should necros axe do more damage than the potential the confusion has to do to a player who is attacking over the duration that the confusion will remain assuming it is not clensed?No

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:if they going to nerf llusionary Counter they should at least buff confusing images to deal the same dmg of pve, 2+1/4s to deal 2k dmg is really a joke

5-10k damage on a condi weapon is also a joke sorry can we not revert that change.

it's not really a condi weapon because you going to do low damage if you go full condi, if you go both power and condi even at pve with the full dmg the dps is bad, now on pvp people can just dodge or interrupt, you going to waste 2+1/4s cast to deal like 1k damage so yeah it's a joke, you can compare it to ranger rapid fire, while a rapid fire would crit you for 15k+ damage from 2k range, with mesmers even if you go class cannon power+condi you never going to deal more than 5k with confusing images, actually all the mesmer weapons are bad right now only mirage is viable because of infinite horizon ambush, even if i want and agree with the nerf because of the passive gameplay

lol scepter is not a condi weapon?Auto chain applies damaging conditionscounter applies damaging conditionsskill 3 does direct damage and applies damaging conditionNope not a condition weapon.

Lets compare it to long bowAuto attack does not apply damaging conditionRapid fire not a damaging conditionHunters shot no damaging conditionsPoint blank shot no damaging conditions

I mean i think you see where this is goingNo you cant have 5-10k strike damage on a condition weaponStop comparing a condition weapon, to power weapon thats not how you win the argument

it's not a condi weapon because if you go full condi you going to do very low damage unless you are a mirage doing ambush, it's a weapon of both power and condi, it's more like axe from ranger, i compared it to rapid fire because of similar combo, the multi hits+ cast time, while a full glass cannon ranger will hit for 15k+ damage with 2k range, confusing images with 900 range will hit for like 5k damage even if you go both power and condi, if you go full condi the damage will never pass from 2k.

still a bad comparison imo

if you go full condi with scepter you can't be sure that you going to do any damage at all because of the low duration from torment and confusion plus you are dependant from your opponent actions

So if we take a full condi ranger and give him a axe what do you think is going to happen?The same flaws you just listed with condi scepter. You wont be sure that you are going to do any damage at all because of the low duration of bleeds and unreliable hit box of split blade plus you are depending from your opponents actions to get a melee face full of that spit blade.

Sorry this is not a reason go buff scepter 3Considering scepter is one of mirages or mesmers most used weapons right now in competitive you must be misinformed of its viability.

maybe is bad for you, but condition damage is supposed to do more damage than power damage, power is burst while condition is over time and can be cleansed so it should do more damage what is not the case of scepter, it does less damage than power even over time.

You didnt completely answer this statementYes condition damage is suppose to do more damage than power damage how ever its suppose to do it over time assuming you get your peek ramp achieved other wise no its not suppose to do more damage than a power burst and certainly not in the same amount of time. Power burst are made to litterally do damage immidately vs condition which is damage over time. Any time condition burst start to match or exceed power burst then there is an issue. Thats why conditions stacks were culled the first time and thats why its likely going to happen again soon. Because too many classes ramp conditions at such a speed that its basically acting like power damage burst which should not be happening.

Its people who dont understand the concept of things and keep calling for condi power creep to the game.

condi ranger does bleed damage, if the enemy stay still he going to take the full damage, scepter does confusion if the enemy stay still you do 0 damage that's the difference, so yeah going full condi ranger with axe is viable, while scepter is not.

Except no one is going to stand still and not do anything while fighting a mesmer even if they did you have full advantage to do as you please realistically you claim here is not something that actually happens.

tell me how scepter is ok without being a mirage?

scepter has been a weapon used for a long time by core mesmers and bunker chronos the block in itself does a heafty chunk of power damage while inflicting a big chunk of torment why are you trying to down play scepter like its the worst weapon in the game.

the question is about the full damage that skill can do, lets say thats only a condi weapon like you are trying to imply, then you pick a rabid amulet, the skill has a 2s cast time what is really big and make a big difference in dps, then for some reason the enemy get hit by all hits and get 7 stacks of confusion, then you need the enemy to atk to get damage, lets say he dont cleanse it and spam mindless, now you have the factor on what weapon the enemy is using most weapons have the medium cast time of 3/4s lets say that he use 3 skills, he will receive ONLY 3k damage-5k at max for a 2s cast skill, while any other class with channelized skill will hit for 10k-15k with no chance to clean it.

ok but if we look at power damage and lets say the player chooses to cc the attacker or just dodge and evade or go invuln then the power burst also does 0 damage like your claims are faulty and based on situations that you cant say without a doubt will always happen.

1 confusion is not your only source of damage2 most players will likely not stop attacking just because you land confusion on them3 if condi ramp didnt kill so quickly people wouldn't take as many mindless clears in their kits4 your argument going int to cast times gets kind of pointless but ill humor it5 if you look at other channeled power burst skills thats when you are suppose to dodge or something to that nature which also voids the damage completely.

No matter how you spin this i wont ever agree that condi damage should do the same amount of damage as a power burst in the same time frame. Ideally for condi to exceed power damage you need to land conditions from multiple skills not just 1 skill so that your condition ramp meets its peek. A single skill should not have the potential to get you this.

This is also why condition builds generally have more sustain than power builds but when condition builds start reaching the potency of power burst while keeping the sustain as they needed for much longer time for the conditions to kill thats a problem. This is part of why people complain about condi weaver as well.

Its burns kill extremely quickly if they land making it more akin to power burst not condi burst but it has the sustain in its utility and weapon kit as if it needed tons of extra time for the conditions to tick for long periods.

im don't want to condi do the same burst damage of power, i want to the power from confusing images do the same burst of other power weapons based on the cast time.the burst that it does now is based on cast time that it's supposed to be a 1 1/2s cast time at max, not 2 1/4s, the 2s cast is from pve damage

Its not a power weapon though if anything i would ask for swords damage to be improved and give back the old off hand sword swordsman who use to do the 1 tap fencing stab attack for like 6k or more i freaking loved that phantom :C

What he means to say is that reaper will channel ghastly claws, and deal 10k dmg. ( 1,75s channel, even less with quickness )You will channel confusing images ( 2,25s channel it lts longer + less quickness uptime ) confusion will last ¬6,5s if not cleansed.

The point he is trying to make is that reaper with 1-1,75s channel will deal 10k dmg instantly, while you channel for 2,25s then wait 6,5s for enemy to spam skills. and end up dealing LESS damage.So 1,75s -> 10k dmg.2,25s + 6,5s = 8,75s -> 6k dmg.Hopefully its clear what he means now, yes?

it means you are just throwing numbers around while ignoring the fact that its still a power weapon vs condi weapon.Also who lets a necro ghastly claw them for the full duration of the channel its the main non shround power burst that the necro can land from range i fact its the only power weapon burst they can land from range this is litterally the main thing you need to dodge out side of shroud attacks to avoid big dps. Lastly if its hitting for 10k on full channel you prob are already under setup which would imply some vuln stacks and possibly chill + cold shoulder and the necro has some might stacks at this point.

Base though that skill wont auto do 10k on every use.

Channel times dont matter when you look at power vs condiPower damage is made so that burst generally happen in 1 or 2 skills at most so your whole setup is trying to secure landing those skills while making sure they do as much damage as possible in the duration of that skill or skills and that skill/skills alone regardless if its a fifth of a second or one and three quarters of a second.

condition damage skills should never do the same amount of damage as pure burst damage skills and thats the reason why similarly skills that do burst strike damage do not apply conditions that do damage over time. You are not allowed to have both there are very few rare exceptions on classes like elementalist which is a given but even when you look at some of their best potential damage which is focused on air those attacks do not inflict damaging conditions.

Arguing that someone might not (but probably still will) attack under confusion and the channel time of the skill is not a applicable reason to argue that the skills power scaling should be buffed on mesmer scepter when scepter is already doing so well as it is.

If anything ask for the attack to be sped up so that the cast time is shorter but even doing this is a double edged sword as it means people can dodge more of the hits in a single evasive.

So you are saying that burst skill is supposed to deal more damage while also being faster, is that correct?Yes, Power burst skills are suppose to do deal more "immediate" damage which generally happens quickly in the time it takes for the skill to complete.

This is not how condition damage is suppose to function especially from 1 skill. For condition damage to start outclassing power burst damage you generally need several skills to land applying multiple stacks in some cases of multiple conditions and you will eventually reach a point where (if not cleansed) that damage is doing more damage per tick than what burst damage allows in its short intervals but this damage is generally should not be immediate which is why conditional builds offer more sustain (in most cases) than power builds. Because you need the extra time for your conditions to do damage.

But if the game is reaching a point where that condition damage is acting more like power burst where the damage is ramping quick and immediately being equal to or outclassing power damage while letting the condition user keep the extra sustain thats a problem.

I simply tried to translate his words more clearly for you, I know why ghastly claws hits hard and why confusing images are trash.

I dont think confusing images is trash its still got some meat to the skill but its certainly not hitting for 8-10k anymore which it shouldn't be when the confusion potential is there. Necro scepter there use to be very similar in regards to dealing high amounts of power damage the only difference was that it was in a slow single hit. Anet removed this and replace that power damage with torment instead this was in the same patch that initially nerfed ice bow on ele long time ago.

I will ask again so that everyone can see and be sure, you are saying that power burst skill, should deal MORE damage instantly, then similar condition skill over LONG duration ?

Yes and No because of how you wrote that statement as it reads a bit of a loaded or misdirecting question.

Yes
, power weapons should do more immediate / direct damage over the course of what ever it takes to activate and complete that skill or combo of power skills than condition skills.
No
, power based skills should not be doing more damage than condition skills with the damaging condition being applied damaging over a "LONG" duration even more so if multiple skills which apply damaging conditions are used.
(Long is the key word here.)

The issue is the long duration part. Conditions on quite a few professions right now can be applied in such a way that they damage heavily over a "SHORT" duration even if the conditions are going to last for quite a while and is close to exceeding the damage of power burst. This is also is why people use the terms "insta melting" when they get hit by condi attcks. Because its not happening over a LONG duration but a SHORT one.Its also why peoples kits are loaded with condition clear right now.

BasicallyShould necros axe do more immediate damage thant mesmer scepter confusing images regardless of both of their cast times?Yes

Should necros axe do more damage than the potential the confusion has to do to a player who is attacking over the duration that the confusion will remain assuming it is not clensed?No

then glad we agree, as It stands scepter 3 has lower damage if not cleansed and fully landed then other skills of its type, its a problem for core mesmer and chrono, but mirage can cover it with clone ambushes between attacks.I know It might look like Im bitter, salty or prying to annoy you, but all I want to see is a clear information.I want me and everyone have it plain and simple written, so we can not only read what we say but UNDERSTAND what we mean.What you just wrote painted clearer picture then 10 other posts you made, I have problems with reading intentions of others unless I get better insight on them, due to condition I have.For all its worth sorry if I annoyed you and thank you for taking your time to explain clearly to me and all others that care to read and understand.

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Phoebe Ascension.8437

Phoebe Ascension.8437

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I often hate warriors and whisper to myself they are overpowered. However, Rampage is NOT the issue. Sure there are times it killed me (but so would any well time skill, like prime light beam etc). If you use it enough you know the ins and outs of it. Imo full counter (except maybe if you are an insane pro) is overpowered.

Full counter, evades while it should block (unblockable can counter). You can hit it no matter what, and almost bait a block no matter what. The result of that block is way to strong, with the sending condies back, daze, 15 endurance gain with trait. And 10 sec cd. But what's more warrior has 2 evades, plz greatsword 3 almost a full third evade per 10 sec. Any further vigor/endurance boosting and it becomes unkillable, yet high damage, high hitpoints, hit healing skills class (with often stability and invulnerability to further make themself an unkillable machine).

Rampage has counters: Stability, evade, leap aways, 'weakness+blind' on war, finishing of the warrior before he can use it effective, boon removal (stability). Also the CD is a punishment, and means the skill must be used at potent time or it's wasted. It's punishing enough 2 min! Crazy cd already for what it is (and how short you made it).

And i repeat: i hate warrior in pvp to fight, i know what they do, but i still can't work around their strong assets (block, evade, stun, damage, high hitpoints combo).

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Burnfall.9573

Burnfall.9573

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i will leave this here:

"The fans have a voice in this too" - Sonic movie producer says the new character design will please fans'

“This is a franchise, and it has to be great,” he said. “Look, I was with fans and so was Jeff. When the s–t hit the fan, I went over there and said, “The most important thing to do, man, is say, ‘I f–ked up. He’d already sent a tweet out an hour before I got there. He’s a good man. It was exactly the right way to handle that. The fans have a voice in this too. There’s a right way to listen.”

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FyzE.3472

FyzE.3472

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:i will leave this here:

"The fans have a voice in this too" - Sonic movie producer says the new character design will please fans'

“This is a franchise, and it has to be great,” he said. “Look, I was with fans and so was Jeff. When the s–t hit the fan, I went over there and said, “The most important thing to do, man, is say, ‘I f–ked up. He’d already sent a tweet out an hour before I got there. He’s a good man. It was exactly the right way to handle that. The fans have a voice in this too. There’s a right way to listen.”

How dare you compare Anet decision making with that of a normal company?

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Enduronex.4865

Enduronex.4865

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  • Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel

This came up again as we were looking at holosmith quickness but is something we’ve been considering for a long time. Quickness in general is something that we’re looking at for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that this sigil is too easily accessible for the power it provides.

Condi ThiefThe main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

  • Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

I'm totally fine with Sigil of Agility changes, that Sigil should not be in PvP anyway.

Yes, on thieves in general, thieves have passive evade condi cleanse AND a lot of stealth with which they can burst either dmg or condition bomb other players, and there is not very much in the way of counter play for that, by definition - you literally can't see it coming.

I know everyone's going to just call me a "holo enthusiast" and honestly I don't care because exactly what I said would happen happened for the previous holo nerfs and toolbelt skills being disabled on overheat - it just made the holosmith mains manage their heat better, and therefore, MORE effective. Honestly, that change needs to be undone because people who overheat pretty much have to run away anyway or are guaranteed dead. I don't understand how people did not see that coming. Meanwhile, Photonic Blast Module continues to punish holosmith players for USING THE MECHANIC IT REQUIRES OF THEM, aka, overheating. How that has not been changed baffles me.I am actually okay with the nerf to Kinetic Battery, but I am absolutely not okay with the Elixir U stability reduction. I use that to stomp players comfortably without having to pop Elixir S or be forced to add heat with yet ANOTHER Corona burst to get the stability I need. People told me to "Just dodge, ape" when I highlighted the issue with longbow ranger's 4 whole seconds of unblockable at 1500 range being a seriously broken option for longbow rangers - you actually cannot dodge enough (unless you already have excessive endurance like staff daredevils or are a Wilderness Survival Soulbeast). Elixir U needs to stay as is. Warriors already have enough CCs to deal with it, Dragon hunters and Firebrands can hold their own against it, thieves steal the boon or stealth away and kite, rangers and soulbeasts have enough boon access to duel against it, mesmers and mirages already have enough evades or clone baiting to deal with it (chronomancers are kinda dead regardless), scrappers can bunker it (we all know core engi isn't great), Heralds can evade and kite well enough to deal with it, Renegades can just slow and chill, elementalists can either out bunker or kite (if you're continually eating my Light Strikes, that's your own problem, not mine). Like the other classes have means to deal with the quickness, it's no less troublesome than the other one shot buils.

Also, I'm very concerned that Coolant blast and Cauterize have not been buffed yet - their only use is in raids and even that usage is dwarfed by the healing power of all other heal skills.

How the Rune of Resistance + Elixir X bug (aka where players do not get resistance) has not been fixed troubles me. The bug where an extra second is required to disengage photon forge on holosmiths has not been fixed troubles me. These are known bugs. I reported the fact that Elixir U granted a boost of 25% endurance and that was fixed (thank you) and how Spectrum Shield neglected to mention -50% condition damage in its description (thank you), but why so slow on the response to these other bugs?

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ZDragon.3046

ZDragon.3046

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@Phoebe Ascension.8437 said:I often hate warriors and whisper to myself they are overpowered. However, Rampage is NOT the issue. Sure there are times it killed me (but so would any well time skill, like prime light beam etc). If you use it enough you know the ins and outs of it. Imo full counter (except maybe if you are an insane pro) is overpowered.

Full counter, evades while it should block (unblockable can counter). You can hit it no matter what, and almost bait a block no matter what. The result of that block is way to strong, with the sending condies back, daze, 15 endurance gain with trait. And 10 sec cd. But what's more warrior has 2 evades, plz greatsword 3 almost a full third evade per 10 sec. Any further vigor/endurance boosting and it becomes unkillable, yet high damage, high hitpoints, hit healing skills class (with often stability and invulnerability to further make themself an unkillable machine).

Rampage has counters: Stability, evade, leap aways, 'weakness+blind' on war, finishing of the warrior before he can use it effective, boon removal (stability). Also the CD is a punishment, and means the skill must be used at potent time or it's wasted. It's punishing enough 2 min! Crazy cd already for what it is (and how short you made it).

And i repeat: i hate warrior in pvp to fight, i know what they do, but i still can't work around their strong assets (block, evade, stun, damage, high hitpoints combo).

im not sure this is even a good argument you are making

Stability is nice but it wont matter you you might not get cc'ed but if the bolder still hits you for 10k thats still an issue.Evades wont always be available even more so when warriors damage alone (gs 3 for example) can force evades not to mention skills like bull charge and various other cc skills.Not every class will always have option to simply leap away let alone do it in time. Not everyone has the low cd leap of holosmith available.Weakness is not a stable defensive measure as there is a 50% chance you will take full damage and it does not counter the cc aspect of rampage skills. This is not a real counter.Blind is a real counter as it allows the avoidance of the cc and the damage

That said rampage acts more as a insta win button for who ever the warrior is targeting 90% of the time.

Full counter is literally fine if anything its slightly too weak as far as its damage goes.First off its not an evade. Full counter absorbs the hit, aka its basically a barrier with unlimited hit points for the application of 1 hit. The application of stability gives the illusion that cc's cannot stop full counter.

The most op thing about spellbreaker even related to full counter is that it can apply magebane and how magebane tether combos with other traits like might makes right rapidly pulsing health and endurance because of the rapid might gen. Full counter just happens to be one of the most common ways its applied.

Rampage on the other hand needed a shave in terms of damage on the cc skills as that is rather overpowered.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Phoebe Ascension.8437 said:I often hate warriors and whisper to myself they are overpowered. However, Rampage is NOT the issue. Sure there are times it killed me (but so would any well time skill, like prime light beam etc). If you use it enough you know the ins and outs of it. Imo full counter (except maybe if you are an insane pro) is overpowered.

Full counter, evades while it should block (unblockable can counter). You can hit it no matter what, and almost bait a block no matter what. The result of that block is way to strong, with the sending condies back, daze, 15 endurance gain with trait. And 10 sec cd. But what's more warrior has 2 evades, plz greatsword 3 almost a full third evade per 10 sec. Any further vigor/endurance boosting and it becomes unkillable, yet high damage, high hitpoints, hit healing skills class (with often stability and invulnerability to further make themself an unkillable machine).

Rampage has counters: Stability, evade, leap aways, 'weakness+blind' on war, finishing of the warrior before he can use it effective, boon removal (stability). Also the CD is a punishment, and means the skill must be used at potent time or it's wasted. It's punishing enough 2 min! Crazy cd already for what it is (and how short you made it).

And i repeat: i hate warrior in pvp to fight, i know what they do, but i still can't work around their strong assets (block, evade, stun, damage, high hitpoints combo).

im not sure this is even a good argument you are making

Stability is nice but it wont matter you you might not get cc'ed but if the bolder still hits you for 10k thats still an issue.Evades wont always be available even more so when warriors damage alone (gs 3 for example) can force evades not to mention skills like bull charge and various other cc skills.Not every class will always have option to simply leap away let alone do it in time. Not everyone has the low cd leap of holosmith available.Weakness is not a stable defensive measure as there is a 50% chance you will take full damage and it does not counter the cc aspect of rampage skills. This is not a real counter.Blind is a real counter as it allows the avoidance of the cc and the damage

That said rampage acts more as a insta win button for who ever the warrior is targeting 90% of the time.

Full counter is literally fine if anything its slightly too weak as far as its damage goes.First off its not an evade. Full counter absorbs the hit, aka its basically a barrier with unlimited hit points for the application of 1 hit. The application of stability gives the illusion that cc's cannot stop full counter.

The most op thing about spellbreaker even related to full counter is that it can apply magebane and how magebane tether combos with other traits like might makes right rapidly pulsing health and endurance because of the rapid might gen. Full counter just happens to be one of the most common ways its applied.

Rampage on the other hand needed a shave in terms of damage on the cc skills as that is rather overpowered.

Few things you seem to not realize about full counter.1 After the block, you DO evade for 0,5s. meaning that its low cooldown extra evade.2 Damage of fullcounter itself is low ( biggest I have seen on me was 2,1k. so compared to other warrior hits of 10k+ its really low ), BUT it dazes, and CC deals damage and removes boons.So in the end, its extra evade that dazes, damages, removes boons gives adrenaline and gives power and ferocity due to Attacker's Insight.1 Evade2 CC3 Boon remove4 Damage ( but low )5 Adrenaline gain6 Damage boostAnd then it also procs tether :D

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ZDragon.3046

ZDragon.3046

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Phoebe Ascension.8437" said:I often hate warriors and whisper to myself they are overpowered. However, Rampage is NOT the issue. Sure there are times it killed me (but so would any well time skill, like prime light beam etc). If you use it enough you know the ins and outs of it. Imo full counter (except maybe if you are an insane pro) is overpowered.

Full counter, evades while it should block (unblockable can counter). You can hit it no matter what, and almost bait a block no matter what. The result of that block is way to strong, with the sending condies back, daze, 15 endurance gain with trait. And 10 sec cd. But what's more warrior has 2 evades, plz greatsword 3 almost a full third evade per 10 sec. Any further vigor/endurance boosting and it becomes unkillable, yet high damage, high hitpoints, hit healing skills class (with often stability and invulnerability to further make themself an unkillable machine).

Rampage has counters: Stability, evade, leap aways, 'weakness+blind' on war, finishing of the warrior before he can use it effective, boon removal (stability). Also the CD is a punishment, and means the skill must be used at potent time or it's wasted. It's punishing enough 2 min! Crazy cd already for what it is (and how short you made it).

And i repeat: i hate warrior in pvp to fight, i know what they do, but i still can't work around their strong assets (block, evade, stun, damage, high hitpoints combo).

im not sure this is even a good argument you are making

Stability is nice but it wont matter you you might not get cc'ed but if the bolder still hits you for 10k thats still an issue.Evades wont always be available even more so when warriors damage alone (gs 3 for example) can force evades not to mention skills like bull charge and various other cc skills.Not every class will always have option to simply leap away let alone do it in time. Not everyone has the low cd leap of holosmith available.Weakness is not a stable defensive measure as there is a 50% chance you will take full damage and it does not counter the cc aspect of rampage skills. This is not a real counter.Blind is a real counter as it allows the avoidance of the cc and the damage

That said rampage acts more as a insta win button for who ever the warrior is targeting 90% of the time.

Full counter is literally fine if anything its slightly too weak as far as its damage goes.First off its not an evade. Full counter absorbs the hit, aka its basically a barrier with unlimited hit points for the application of 1 hit. The application of stability gives the illusion that cc's cannot stop full counter.

The most op thing about spellbreaker even related to full counter is that it can apply magebane and how magebane tether combos with other traits like might makes right rapidly pulsing health and endurance because of the rapid might gen. Full counter just happens to be one of the most common ways its applied.

Rampage on the other hand needed a shave in terms of damage on the cc skills as that is rather overpowered.

Few things you seem to not realize about full counter.1 After the block, you DO evade for 0,5s. meaning that its low cooldown extra evade.Its not a block its technically an absorption and yes i know it evades after but only after you trigger it. IF you dont trigger it then it does nothing.This falls into the same concept that you call out of "People wont attack under confusion argument" with a twist. This is the same concept of how it feels to say just stop attacking or "its bad because people dont attack while its up."2 Damage of fullcounter itself is low ( biggest I have seen on me was 2,1k. so compared to other warrior hits of 10k+ its really low ), BUT it dazes, and CC deals damage and removes boons.Yes but this is avoidable and also is in line with my previous statement that its only if full counter is triggered.So in the end, its extra evade that dazes, damages, removes boons gives adrenaline and gives power and ferocity due to Attacker's Insight.1 Evade2 CC3 Boon remove4 Damage ( but low )5 Adrenaline gain6 Damage boostAnd then it also procs tether :DIdeally a lot of the things you are listing and pointing out are traits that can trigger several times from other sources not just with a successful FC proc and hit. Many of those things are also not directly products the FC skill itself so..... technically speaking FC is not op. IT might seem stronger with traits stacked on top of it though. It is indeed a loaded skill but considering it requires you to take a hit and something be in melee range to make the most of it im not so sure i would call it op in its current form.

Most of warriors power creep issues right now are based around might generation (mage bane, for great justice, possibly the gs trait) + might makes right and menders might synergies etc. Lots of boosted dps, healing, and endurance restoration.

I really think zeroing in on FC is looking in the wrong spot personally. I feel like if anet nerfed FC some more it wouldn't make any difference so there is no reason to start pointing at the idea of doing so.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Phoebe Ascension.8437" said:I often hate warriors and whisper to myself they are overpowered. However, Rampage is NOT the issue. Sure there are times it killed me (but so would any well time skill, like prime light beam etc). If you use it enough you know the ins and outs of it. Imo full counter (except maybe if you are an insane pro) is overpowered.

Full counter, evades while it should block (unblockable can counter). You can hit it no matter what, and almost bait a block no matter what. The result of that block is way to strong, with the sending condies back, daze, 15 endurance gain with trait. And 10 sec cd. But what's more warrior has 2 evades, plz greatsword 3 almost a full third evade per 10 sec. Any further vigor/endurance boosting and it becomes unkillable, yet high damage, high hitpoints, hit healing skills class (with often stability and invulnerability to further make themself an unkillable machine).

Rampage has counters: Stability, evade, leap aways, 'weakness+blind' on war, finishing of the warrior before he can use it effective, boon removal (stability). Also the CD is a punishment, and means the skill must be used at potent time or it's wasted. It's punishing enough 2 min! Crazy cd already for what it is (and how short you made it).

And i repeat: i hate warrior in pvp to fight, i know what they do, but i still can't work around their strong assets (block, evade, stun, damage, high hitpoints combo).

im not sure this is even a good argument you are making

Stability is nice but it wont matter you you might not get cc'ed but if the bolder still hits you for 10k thats still an issue.Evades wont always be available even more so when warriors damage alone (gs 3 for example) can force evades not to mention skills like bull charge and various other cc skills.Not every class will always have option to simply leap away let alone do it in time. Not everyone has the low cd leap of holosmith available.Weakness is not a stable defensive measure as there is a 50% chance you will take full damage and it does not counter the cc aspect of rampage skills. This is not a real counter.Blind is a real counter as it allows the avoidance of the cc and the damage

That said rampage acts more as a insta win button for who ever the warrior is targeting 90% of the time.

Full counter is literally fine if anything its slightly too weak as far as its damage goes.First off its not an evade. Full counter absorbs the hit, aka its basically a barrier with unlimited hit points for the application of 1 hit. The application of stability gives the illusion that cc's cannot stop full counter.

The most op thing about spellbreaker even related to full counter is that it can apply magebane and how magebane tether combos with other traits like might makes right rapidly pulsing health and endurance because of the rapid might gen. Full counter just happens to be one of the most common ways its applied.

Rampage on the other hand needed a shave in terms of damage on the cc skills as that is rather overpowered.

Few things you seem to not realize about full counter.1 After the block, you DO evade for 0,5s. meaning that its low cooldown extra evade.Its not a block its technically an absorption and yes i know it evades after but only after you trigger it. IF you dont trigger it then it does nothing.This falls into the same concept that you call out of "People wont attack under confusion argument" with a twist. This is the same concept of how it feels to say just stop attacking or "its bad because people dont attack while its up."2 Damage of fullcounter itself is low ( biggest I have seen on me was 2,1k. so compared to other warrior hits of 10k+ its really low ), BUT it dazes, and CC deals damage and removes boons.Yes but this is avoidable and also is in line with my previous statement that its only if full counter is triggered.So in the end, its extra evade that dazes, damages, removes boons gives adrenaline and gives power and ferocity due to Attacker's Insight.1 Evade2 CC3 Boon remove4 Damage ( but low )5 Adrenaline gain6 Damage boostAnd then it also procs tether :DIdeally a lot of the things you are listing and pointing out are traits that can trigger several times from other sources not just with a successful FC proc and hit. Many of those things are also not directly products the FC skill itself so..... technically speaking FC is not op. IT might seem stronger with traits stacked on top of it though. It is indeed a loaded skill but considering it requires you to take a hit and something be in melee range to make the most of it im not so sure i would call it op in its current form.

Most of warriors power creep issues right now are based around might generation (mage bane, for great justice, possibly the gs trait) + might makes right and menders might synergies etc. Lots of boosted dps, healing, and endurance restoration.

I really think zeroing in on FC is looking in the wrong spot personally. I feel like if anet nerfed FC some more it wouldn't make any difference so there is no reason to start pointing at the idea of doing so.

If you use evade, and evade nothing. You still used evade, just wasted it. yes?I dont care what skill does on its own, end result is what matters,and end result is aoe, damage, heal, might, power, ferocity, reveal, damage bonus, CC,boonstrip, adrenaline gain and propably many others I have missed.You cant just say FC is not an extra evade, if anything its better version of evade,

Normal evade, roll -> evade attacks for 0,75s.FC -> hold shield for 1,5s if hit, absorb it and evade for 0,5s.Low cooldown means you just chain it alongside normal dodge, and gs 3 for high evade uptime.Im fine with that, personally I think SPB missed the spot as a magekiller kinda spec, all they did is insane CC, insane DMG and good boon removal with good survivability, they slapped everything and called it a day.What is overpowered with warrior is might generation and healing throught might gen, nothing else ( and rampage ). but if might generation would get fixed even rampage could potentially stay, no 10k rocks if war doesnt have 25 permamight.

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Axelwarrior.9084

Axelwarrior.9084

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A bit late, but here's my 2 cents about these changes:

Sigil of Agility: Good riddance. Global and easy access to quickness is unhealthy for the game, messing with the opponent's ability to properly react to your key abilities.

Condi Thief: Great changes, and I agree with the thought process behind them. Condi Daredevil is a low-risk build with limited counterplay - it should not have high burst on top of that.

Holosmith: Speaking of Quickness, this is the worst offender. A build with such decisive finishers and high-damage CC skills should not have such a high quickness uptime. As for the Elixir U stability - just remove it if you're gonna keep the Quickness on it. It will still be a good skill, and if the Holo really feels like they're lacking stability, they can run Elixir B or Elixir X. Honestly, Holosmith is just a badly designed class IMO, but that's not something that can be fixed with a minor balance update.

Condi Mirage: All around bad changes, in my opinion. They affect more builds than just the problematic Condi Mirage. The more you try to nerf around the problem, the more new problems you create. To me, the solution to Mirage is quite simple - disable Mirage Cloak while CC'd, just like a normal dodge. Would make Elusive Mind more appealing while encouraging counterplay and build diversity (if you can't take Infinite Horizon, you'll be forced into a condi shatter build, which is much healthier imo). I doubt this is a ground-breaking idea, so I'm curious why you're not doing that. Someone might enlighten me.

Rampage: Just... why? Why the overnerfing mania? Yes, I hate Rampage as a player, whether I'm getting stomped by it or I use it to stomp my enemies. But if you practically remove it from the game with a huge nerf (like you have done with many things), then it will just feel bad for many people. I'm hoping that the intention is that the base damage will be decent without power scaling, but if not, then that's disappointing.

Warrior's Cunning: An expected change. Might be a bit too much, though.

Staff Thief: Was this really a problem? I doubt it. Again, the mistake of nerfing more builds than intended. Quick Pockets is a fine trait out of Staff Thief context, so leave it as is. I really, really doubt Staff Thief deserves nerfs at this stage of the process anyway, especially when you compare it to the much more popular Condi Thief. If you must proceed with the changes, I believe the Staff Master nerf will be enough.

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