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Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

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  • ArenaNet Staff

Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at WvW.

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

In particular we’re looking at:

  • Scourge

We’ve identified scourge as the major pain point in WvW right now, and more specifically Sand Savant’s big shade affecting 10 targets. This has pushed scourge far above other options in terms of damage, while also adding to its strong corrupts and solid barrier application. There are other aspects of scourge that we’re looking into for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that reducing their target cap back down to 5 is a significant change and we want to see how the meta adjusts before making any additional changes to shades. We do still have concerns about their corrupt potential, so we’re also making a slight adjustment to Devouring Darkness.

  • Sand Savant: This trait no longer increases the target cap of shade skills in WvW only
  • Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

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Cal is in his new position as the balance lead no more than 20(?) days and already he is wielding the balance sledgehammer like a champ.

On a serious note i don't think this will change the zerging meta much if at all due to the fact that necro, and scourge in particular will still remain the best class for boon removal. If you want to shift the zerging meta to where there is more variety you need to also tone down the amount of aoe boon application and aoe healing; to be blunt the game has too much aoe/spammy skills in general regardless of game modes.

EDIT: when traited for big shade, consider adding a secondary shade skill that removes the active big shade when used. This would make it so the scourge does not have to use up another f1 charge to drop a big shade on himself in the event somone charges him in melee, but could recall his existing shade.

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First: Good to see ‘tweaks’

Second: I have seen it said that reducing the number that scourge hits may only increase the number of scourges, mainly because of the AOE, corrupts and barriers.

It gives damage, and support in the same basic build.

That being said, others will be able to comment better on this.

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Good Afternoon Cal,

I think the changes for Scourge will hopefully help bring some diversity to the game for WvW due to it being oppressive in that particular game mode.

Could you please look into other classes for Support? You have buffed some classes, notably Warrior's support line but left a niche class such as Chronomancer - Support Wells in the dust.

Chronomancer Support wells are the support skills that nobody wants to use because they give out mediocre boons and require targets to stay stationary to benefit from them. This is made even worse when you have classes that give out similar boons and more while running around (such as Firebrand Tomes).

If you want Chronomancer to be more damage orientated then have the wells be more for damage, as it stands now they are pretty useless in almost every game mode.

PLEASE ADJUST THE SUPPORT WELLS.

Thank you.

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Hello,

Thank you for the input. For what it's worth, I expect the main effect of reducing Sand savant's target cap will be to just get more scourges to get the work done... But I'm the pessimistic one, and zergs aren't so much of my playstyle.

I've read the Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP as well, and I was wondering whether some of the issues that are raised there are also valid for WvW (at least, in a near future). I'm especially thinking of the condi mirage question that'll be put on the table, and also :

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage.

I'm emphasizing that one because it's a question that I (amongst others) have raised in a previous post in the WvW section, and I'm thankful that you're considering it.

EDIT : Another question. Is the issue of the insane boon application and re-application (that led to the boon corrupt race) on the table for a later larger more "across the board" update ?

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The main problems...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes

What Scourge, Reaper and core Necros need to fit in with a fast paced combat game, where movement and positioning matters. And considering Necro builds have access to a lot of area skills already, the Scourge didn’t need more AoEs built-in.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58958/eye-on-necromancer-for-august-2019

“Shade Revamp

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shade

Change Manifest Shade to a ground target movement skill, and remove Shades and AoE damage function from the equation. This would provide the much needed mobility for necro and reduce some of the unhealthy AoE ranged damage spam in wvw. Let’s call this new skill “Shifting Sands”...

“Shifting Sands uses some of your life force to move around the battle field... Blah blah blah”Damage: XCripple: (2s)Number of Targets: 1Radius: 130Range: 900*All other shroud skills remain the same, sans the now gone Shades.

Sand Swell Revamp

Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell to 1,200 range. Remove the damage and boon conversion function. Reduce the cooldown. Make it break stun when used. Similar to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink

“Plunge into the ground, creating a portal through Tyria for allied use. Grant allies using this passage a health barrier. Break Stun.”Barrier: 1,618Duration: (8s)Radius: 180Range: 1,200Break StunRecharge: (30s)“

And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

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Devouring Darkness now corrupts 2 boons instead of 3Devouring Darkness now corrupts 1 boon instead of 2

I'm waiting for the day where Devouring Darkness will cleanse and convert 2 conditions into boons on your target.

Nerfing corrupts without fixing stuff like Purity of Purpose and FB puking boons 24/7 will only bunker up the meta even more.

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can you pretty please fix Scourge in PVE tho? you destroyed Scourge completely in pve in order to fix him in wvw. right now WvW is the only place where Scourge is still being used. by all means nerf Scourge in WvW cause i agree hes abit too strong there.BUT ! im sorry to say this to you ... you really really have to buff Scourge in PVE ! other wise please jsut delete Scourge from the game and get it done..and if you are at it.. might aswell just delete the whole Necromancer class !right now Scourge isnt used in any game mode aside from WvW your last nerf to shade made Scourge clunky and unplayableScourge is a worthless support and a clunky low tier dps class.. its basically a big nothing in the pve. i understad that this post is about WvW but last patch you did not make the change only for WvW so now if you wanna destroy Scourge in the only game mode where is still playing you must buff him in other modes to still be a class worth playing !

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The problem is that everything has gained access to an obscene amount of boons and Scourge was created as a way to answer that. Now it's getting repeatedly shafted because as I'd said in a thread I created in the Necro sub, it's easier to focus on one spec than it is all of them.

I understand this is the "first" patch and that more are likely to come. But I want to stress before any future updates that support professions are equally, if not greater problems than Scourge. Firebrand is the obvious one for group support while others, like "boonbeast" ( a boon-centric Soulbeast build ) are also heavily over performing on the small scale. I don't expect perfect balance in all areas ( zerg, small scale, solo ) but I do expect all areas to be touched upon.

I propose that Scourge reworked entirely in a similar manner to what Scrapper, Mesmer and Chronomancer have received in the past. I'm not certain what that rework could be just yet, but something that prevents it from being the victim of constant nerfs because it was poorly designed and given far too much power in group fights, while simultaneously being extremely weak on it's own.

I'm trying not to be frustrated about this because I understand Scourge has too much of an impact on groups. But the way it's being completely singled out all the time because it's the only spec that can do what it does just angers me. And I say that as someone who rarely plays Scourge. I may be a Necro main but I've put in a grand total of maybe 50 hours on Scourge ( the rest has been entirely on core and Reaper ). I just hate to see it constantly getting slapped around while everything else gets to keep their obnoxious boon spam. Not being able to kill anything is just as annoying as not being able to melee anything.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:The problem is that everything has gained access to an obscene amount of boons and Scourge was created as a way to answer that. Now it's getting repeatedly shafted because as I'd said in a thread I created in the Necro sub, it's easier to focus on one spec than it is all of them.

I understand this is the "first" patch and that more are likely to come. But I want to stress before any future updates that support professions are equally, if not greater problems than Scourge. Firebrand is the obvious one for group support while others, like "boonbeast" ( a boon-centric Soulbeast build ) are also heavily over performing on the small scale. I don't expect perfect balance in all areas ( zerg, small scale, solo ) but I do expect all areas to be touched upon.

I propose that Scourge reworked entirely in a similar manner to what Scrapper, Mesmer and Chronomancer have received in the past. I'm not certain what that rework could be just yet, but something that prevents it from being the victim of constant nerfs because it was poorly designed and given far too much power in group fights, while simultaneously being extremely weak on it's own.

I'm trying not to be frustrated about this because I understand Scourge has too much of an impact on groups. But the way it's being completely singled out all the time because it's the only spec that can do what it does just angers me. And I say that as someone who rarely plays Scourge. I may be a Necro main but I've put in a grand total of maybe 50 hours on Scourge ( the rest has been entirely on core and Reaper ). I just hate to see it constantly getting slapped around while everything else gets to keep their obnoxious boon spam. Not being able to kill anything is just as annoying as not being able to melee anything.

+1 agree. more than this.. it is only now that they started to split the game modes.. but up untill now in order to try balance Scourge in WvW they kept nerfing him to the group on all game modes.. i agree that Scourge is still very strong on WvW and he is a problem . but WvW is the only game mode Scourge can still perform decent and thats only in big group fights. more nerfs to Scourge just going to make the class vanish.. while guard is just op broken in all game modes. i just dont know why nothing is done in PVE to bring Scourge back up abit.. i agree that Scourge need a complate rework but this will be true for all game modes

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@"Swagger.1459" said:And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

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I feel a lot of the nerfs scourge got recently has completely massacred the class in roaming/small parties in favor of zerging. Specifically the shade made playing the class in small parties a literal suicide, because now not only you lack all the condi corrupt/and condi pressure, you are a sitting duck if you ever pop your shade. It is clunky, confusing and made a lot of people unhappy in PvE as well. Also, a grandmaster gonna convert only one boon out of someone if they are alone? Why must this class and core traits continue to suffer in wvw because of zergs? Like someone here said, it is gonna reach a point it will convert a condi into a boon from the target. If being aoe is an issue, then get rid of the issue, and not dance it around, revert back to 3 corrupts and make single target only.

The issue is the shade, so that should be the only focus, isn't possible to just revert back to the old way, and just spread number people when you pop your shade? Let say if you have no shade on, you affect 5 people around you, but if you have a shade on, you affect 2 around and 3 on the shade, or vice versa. This would really fix all the PvE complaints while making the class less useless outside zerging, all the while completely nerfing them in zerg play only. Or just get rid of sand savant and bring back the old sand shroud.

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Feels surreal to see you up there CMC. Miss your streams. :)

I agree with sand savant changes. Scourge is pretty broken in WvW for almost only this reason.

I dont think devouring needs nerfed too. I think thats a good skill and deserves to be 2 corrupts. I think the sand svant change is so significant that scourge should at least keep that, for now.

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@Nebilim.5127 said:I feel a lot of the nerfs scourge got recently has completely massacred the class in roaming/small parties in favor of zerging. Specifically the shade made playing the class in small parties a literal suicide, because now not only you lack all the condi corrupt/and condi pressure, you are a sitting duck if you ever pop your shade. It is clunky, confusing and made a lot of people unhappy in PvE as well. So a grandmaster gonna convert only one boon out of someone if they are alone? Why must this class and core traits continue to suffer in wvw because of zergs?

The issue is the shade, so that should be the only focus, isn't possible to just revert back to the old way, and just spread number people when you pop your shade? Let say if you have no shade on, you affect 5 people around you, but if you have a shade on, you affect 2 around and 3 on the shade, or vice versa. This would really fix all the PvE complaints while making the class less useless outside zerging, all the while completely nerfing them in zerg play only

the change should never have effected the PVE . the change should've been only reducing the number of targets in PVP/WVW

in pve we need our shade back to how they were.. PVE Scourge is now a melee dps class but with low dps and clunky game play.and even if playing support why must i only heal 2 around me and 3 around the shade? or why must i chose to barrier my self or the group?the change just doesnt make sense in PVE .. nor to mention DPS scourge is so clunky and uncomfortable to play now we lost the defensive of having second life bar for what? a barrier we cant really apply to our selves? and lets face it.. no matter what site you check or group of raids .. Scourge is barely accepted and barely take the medicore.. if as sup.. Scourge and necromancer generally is doing awfully bad in PVE and they werent so good even before this nerf.

if anything Scourge should've been buffed in PVE both as dps and support. but nope.. they had a weird logic of giving us new death magic with 600 toughness will make Scourge good pve class even if they nerf shade .. shades must be reverted back to how they were in PVE or at the very least a list of following buffs to Scourge in PVE to bring him to a better spot. both as DPS and support.

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@noiwk.2760 said:

@Nebilim.5127 said:I feel a lot of the nerfs scourge got recently has completely massacred the class in roaming/small parties in favor of zerging. Specifically the shade made playing the class in small parties a literal suicide, because now not only you lack all the condi corrupt/and condi pressure, you are a sitting duck if you ever pop your shade. It is clunky, confusing and made a lot of people unhappy in PvE as well. So a grandmaster gonna convert only one boon out of someone if they are alone? Why must this class and core traits continue to suffer in wvw because of zergs?

The issue is the shade, so that should be the only focus, isn't possible to just revert back to the old way, and just spread number people when you pop your shade? Let say if you have no shade on, you affect 5 people around you, but if you have a shade on, you affect 2 around and 3 on the shade, or vice versa. This would really fix all the PvE complaints while making the class less useless outside zerging, all the while completely nerfing them in zerg play only

the change should never have effected the PVE . the change should've been only reducing the number of targets in PVP/WVW

in pve we need our shade back to how they were.. PVE Scourge is now a melee dps class but with low dps and clunky game play.and even if playing support why must i only heal 2 around me and 3 around the shade? or why must i chose to barrier my self or the group?the change just doesnt make sense in PVE .. nor to mention DPS scourge is so clunky and uncomfortable to play now we lost the defensive of having second life bar for what? a barrier we cant really apply to our selves? and lets face it.. no matter what site you check or group of raids .. Scourge is barely accepted and barely take the medicore.. if as sup.. Scourge and necromancer generally is doing awfully bad in PVE and they werent so good even before this nerf.

if anything Scourge should've been buffed in PVE both as dps and support. but nope.. they had a weird logic of giving us new death magic with 600 toughness will make Scourge good pve class even if they nerf shade .. shades must be reverted back to how they were in PVE or at the very least a list of following buffs to Scourge in PVE to bring him to a better spot. both as DPS and support.

They could keep 2 around you and 3 on shade in wvw only, while keeping 5-5(total 10 traited) in pve. These are all only number changes while keeping the functionality, i really wish the dev listened to this. PvE needs the old shade back not matter what. They already said themselves before, a mode should NEVER suffer because of others.

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@Nebilim.5127 said:

@Nebilim.5127 said:I feel a lot of the nerfs scourge got recently has completely massacred the class in roaming/small parties in favor of zerging. Specifically the shade made playing the class in small parties a literal suicide, because now not only you lack all the condi corrupt/and condi pressure, you are a sitting duck if you ever pop your shade. It is clunky, confusing and made a lot of people unhappy in PvE as well. So a grandmaster gonna convert only one boon out of someone if they are alone? Why must this class and core traits continue to suffer in wvw because of zergs?

The issue is the shade, so that should be the only focus, isn't possible to just revert back to the old way, and just spread number people when you pop your shade? Let say if you have no shade on, you affect 5 people around you, but if you have a shade on, you affect 2 around and 3 on the shade, or vice versa. This would really fix all the PvE complaints while making the class less useless outside zerging, all the while completely nerfing them in zerg play only

the change should never have effected the PVE . the change should've been only reducing the number of targets in PVP/WVW

in pve we need our shade back to how they were.. PVE Scourge is now a melee dps class but with low dps and clunky game play.and even if playing support why must i only heal 2 around me and 3 around the shade? or why must i chose to barrier my self or the group?the change just doesnt make sense in PVE .. nor to mention DPS scourge is so clunky and uncomfortable to play now we lost the defensive of having second life bar for what? a barrier we cant really apply to our selves? and lets face it.. no matter what site you check or group of raids .. Scourge is barely accepted and barely take the medicore.. if as sup.. Scourge and necromancer generally is doing awfully bad in PVE and they werent so good even before this nerf.

if anything Scourge should've been buffed in PVE both as dps and support. but nope.. they had a weird logic of giving us new death magic with 600 toughness will make Scourge good pve class even if they nerf shade .. shades must be reverted back to how they were in PVE or at the very least a list of following buffs to Scourge in PVE to bring him to a better spot. both as DPS and support.

They could keep 2 around you and 3 in wvw only, while keeping 5-5(total 10 traited) in pve. These are all only number changes while keeping the functionality, i really wish the dev listened to this. PvE needs the old shade back not matter what.

i agree with you completely.. but it seems like the PVE team isnt working and not really caring about what we say.. i never seen a word from PVE balance team.

the new shade just doesnt work in PVE and it completely destroyed an already medicore class.. i quit my Scourge after the last patch and now im playing ele..

i only play my scourge on WvW now.. and now they gonna destroy it in the only game mode its still vailble pick..

i just really hope they listen and fix Scourge PVE. id be sad to say goodbye to my Scourge.

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