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Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

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@Kanto.2485 said:(...) you get situations in which your stab gets chaincorrupted into fear and you just die. So the problem is that with a coordinated shade spike(and maybe rev spike on top of it) you can lockdown all enemy classes that don't have stuff like evades or skills that make you completely invulnerable to damage(and with low cast time too), corrupt their stab into fear, and then put CC on top of that. And with the amount of damage necroes and rev deal you can melt down even a firebrand in like 1-1.5 seconds sometimes.

Makes sense, but I feel like that stars need to be quite aligned for that to work.

That said, stunlocks have been an issue for ages...

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:In my opinion the only change neccessary on Scourge is: Remove the power damage. It's supposed to be a condi class, not a powerAoE Bomber.

You realise scourges play power because in medium to large scale combat conditions are pretty much completely useless due to the over abundance of condition cleanse int the game at the moment.

And you realise that the oppressive nature of scourge comes from the fact that they can do excessive powerbombs with no meaningfull cooldown on large AoE's from range?The fact that condition builds vs condition cleanse are completely out of balance is an entirely different issue (which of course needs to be adressed as well...).

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This will be a much needed fix to the Scourge.... Scourges were a problem in WvW before they were buffed, buffing them made them way overpowered... scaling it back a tad will help, but Scourge is still going to be too powerful, they were before it was buffed to 10 targets. But I appreciate that you are doing small adjustments to classes and seeing how those adjustments play out instead of doing wide rangey adjustments that can mess up a lot in a lot of ways at once. Very agile of you guys =P

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I think Cal hit the Post Comment button too quickly, because what would make sense would be in addition to reducing the target cap from 10 to 5, they should reduce the 100% cooldown duration increase we see in WvW to compensate.

Less targets hit per shade / more shades can be cast by the player over the same time span.

Btw, the shade rework still sucks for PvE Scourges.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I think Cal hit the Post Comment button too quickly, because what would make sense would be in addition to reducing the target cap from 10 to 5, they should reduce the 100% cooldown duration increase we see in WvW to compensate.

Less targets hit per shade / more shades can be cast by the player over the same time span.

Btw, the shade rework still sucks for PvE Scourges.

yeah the cd increase will be brutal if it remains.

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@bluberblasen.9684 said:we need the pvp changes in WvW too.Small scale is more important than large scale for the majority.

i saw the pvp notes and thought . woooow finally.. and then realized it was PVP and not WVW :(

Agreed...this is incredibly disappointing. I welcome scourge nerfs, but why the still complete refusal to bring all the SPvP changes to WvW? Lowman PvP is a hilarious mobile game tier disaster and so imbalanced that it's simply UNFUN.

C'mon CmC, you're better than this. Give us all the nerfs SPvP. WvW isn't simply zerg vs zerg PvP, there's small scale PvP ALL the time and it's a complete miserable experience due to how badly it's balanced.

Balancing WvW ONLY around zerg pvp is why the mode is so far into the gutter right now.

@miguelsil.6324 said:Cal please address the perma STEALTH, HARD CC STUNLOCKS ( really its not fun and has no skill required ) and one shot builds for all classes in wvw, we ned to have counters for one shots from stealth which in this case means DE and mesmers.

Too much reward with little to no risk.

Stunlocks should have no place in wvw, a ICD of at least 1s after the stun ends or is broken by stunbreak would fix this.Here is a good example of what I mentioned above. These builds only work in WvW and do not function in SPvP, but are very common and incredibly unfun to fight in WvW.

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@"Dahir.4158" said:Waiting for Staff Elementalist to get buffed. Change Lava Font and Meteor Shower back to normal, then buff core traits. Thank you.

There was a time, not too long ago actually, that my CoR would actually travel toward and hit what I was targeting. Just saying - be careful what you ask for ;)

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

Well, so here is the feedback:

Those changes won't solve anything!By reducing sand savant targets you are just making and unneeded change that will shift the issue onto demonic lore. Nothing more nothing less.

To balance the necromancer/scourge in WvW, there is 3 thing that you need to consider:

  • Rethink barriers: The issue with barrier is that they favor stacking source of barriers. You need to change their ability to stack. Even if it mean that all barriers source will need adjustment after such a change, it's a necessary step that you cannot skip.
  • Boon corruption: The necromancer have to much boon corruption. Not to much boon removal, to much boon corruption! Just change back some boon corruption to boon ripping.
  • Sand shade area denial: Please just remove the manifest sand shade proc from the F skills and rework F5 into a non damaging skill.

That is what you need to do since scourge's release. We've got CD increase, skill delay, traits exceptions, QoL butchered... etc. It's time to stop looking right and left and concentrate onto the origin of the problem. Sand savant isn't and have never been the issue, the issue is the damage from the area. Nothing more, nothing less.

Did anyone ever complained about DE support that grant support around the deadeye and it's marked target? No. It's the same radius than what provide sand savant pre QoL butchered. And this is proof enough that you are focusing on the wrong things in your balancing.

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Aney made a game without dedicated healers, then introduced them in druid then firebrand for the sake of raids. You either need to unhitch PvE and WvW balance (not such a bad idea anyways) or nerf the slippers out of support specs (the main offended being firebrand), and spread that functionality across multiple classes as was originally intended. Combine that with a general decrease in time to kill/damage across the board, and you'll have something approaching balance again.

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thieves: jump in (out of stealth) whenever they want, and if something does not go their way, they can instantly jump away (into stealth).

Either reduce their mobility, hp and damage a lot, or remove stealth altogether. THE WHOLE CLASS IS BROKEN.

Mesmer? Same!Two classes that can engage&disengage at will, must not be able to deal that much amount of damage. Or if you like the stealth-glass cannon so much, make them really glass: 2k hp. Top. A single blow, game over.

Rangers: almost as bad as the two above. But hey, just a little 50% damage nerf and soulbeast&co would be balanced. Same for holo. Core and Scrapper are fine, imho.

warriors&guardians: remove 50% of their blocks&invuls, done. Also nuke the burnguard damage.

necros: too much hp for the damage they dish out. 10k less would be apropriate.

and there you have it, balance.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:We’ve identified scourge as the major pain point in WvW right now, and more specifically Sand Savant’s big shade affecting 10 targets.

You just raised the cap to 10 in the previous balance patch. It was limited to 5-targets prior (with another 5 coming from the area around the necro itself).

Scourge was still a problem with the 5-target cap on the "big" shade so this is a very small step. It's really just fixing what you broke the other month.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:Waiting for Staff Elementalist to get buffed. Change Lava Font and Meteor Shower back to normal, then buff core traits. Thank you.

There was a time, not too long ago actually, that my CoR would actually travel toward and hit what I was targeting. Just saying - be careful what you ask for ;)

Elementalist should be high risk with high reward, like this:

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

Well, so here is the feedback:

Those changes won't solve anything!By reducing
sand savant
targets you are just making and unneeded change that will shift the issue onto
demonic lore
. Nothing more nothing less.

To balance the necromancer/scourge in WvW, there is 3 thing that you need to consider:
  • Rethink barriers:
    The issue with barrier is that they favor stacking source of barriers. You need to change their ability to stack. Even if it mean that all barriers source will need adjustment after such a change, it's a necessary step that you cannot skip.
  • Boon corruption:
    The necromancer have to much boon corruption. Not to much boon removal, to much boon corruption! Just change back some boon corruption to boon ripping.
  • Sand shade area denial:
    Please just remove the
    manifest sand shade
    proc from the F skills and rework F5 into a non damaging skill.

That is what you need to do since scourge's release. We've got CD increase, skill delay, traits exceptions, QoL butchered... etc. It's time to stop looking right and left and concentrate onto the origin of the problem.
Sand savant
isn't and have never been the issue, the issue is the damage from the area. Nothing more, nothing less.

Did anyone ever complained about DE support that grant support around the deadeye and it's marked target? No. It's the same radius than what provide
sand savant
pre QoL butchered. And this is proof enough that you are focusing on the wrong things in your balancing.

I stopped reading after "switching to demonic lore". I mean, demonic lore, on a power build? Really?

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:thieves: jump in (out of stealth) whenever they want, and if something does not go their way, they can instantly jump away (into stealth).

Either reduce their mobility, hp and damage a lot, or remove stealth altogether. THE WHOLE CLASS IS BROKEN.

Mesmer? Same!Two classes that can engage&disengage at will, must not be able to deal that much amount of damage. Or if you like the stealth-glass cannon so much, make them really glass: 2k hp. Top. A single blow, game over.

Rangers: almost as bad as the two above. But hey, just a little 50% damage nerf and soulbeast&co would be balanced. Same for holo. Core and Scrapper are fine, imho.

warriors&guardians: remove 50% of their blocks&invuls, done. Also nuke the burnguard damage.

necros: too much hp for the damage they dish out. 10k less would be apropriate.

and there you have it, balance.

U coulda saved yourself a lot of time by just typing I dislike thief and mesmer design pls delete class.Its messed up that they don't make ur proposed changes to those classes given ur clearly un biased rant post.

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@"Dahir.4158" said:Waiting for Staff Elementalist to get buffed. Change Lava Font and Meteor Shower back to normal, then buff core traits. Thank you.

And PLEASE take a look at the extremely slow flying fireballs for example .. often enough an enemy player doesn´t even have to dodge but avoids damage by simply moving .. fireball don´t hit bcs too slow to catch up :( also the line of sight thing is still a complete mess at a lot of points where i am not able to put up Meteor or else bcs los break.. sometimes even the lawn seems to be too high -.- not to mention blink ... no valid path to target i am often told when there´s NOTHING in the way but impure programmed code ?! Should think about "redesigning" the wvw maps to get rid of this maybe ?

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I think sand savant is fine. The scourge burst comes from the combination of desert shroud and the elite skill. (Or any other combo of skills that can be used along side desert shroud)

All you have to really do is make desert shroud a channeled ability. You’d still be able to burst with it, but now you can be interrupted. This way you don’t compromise the boon/corrupt wars, and you can still keep scourge as a dps/strip class

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