Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

[Ok I Did It.2854]

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

In particular we’re looking at:

• Scourge

We’ve identified scourge as the major pain point in WvW right now, and more specifically Sand Savant’s big shade affecting 10 targets.

So the pain point is something that Anet changed recently, even though feedback prior to it was like NO dont do this, you want to bring overperforming builds back in line, and out of all the classes Necro was the only one, no mention of perma invis instant kill thieves, or cant be killed boon bot soulbeasts, are take no damage warriors, got it, it doesnt really seem like you h ave identified the problem you have acknowledged that people want 1 class nerfed, it was this type of "balancing" in the past that got us to this point,

Reverting the scourge back to what it was at before wont change anything, nerfing it more than that just removes it from the game mode, like i said in the "feedback" topic you cant fix the balance in WvW by changing a few stats on some classes, as it either makes it massively OP or so bad that no one will touch it again, the entire scourge change that was done recently needs completely undone, it broke the class in PvE but making is to sub par to other classes its not used, and so OP in WvW that you made the problem they had before x10 worse. Its starting to feel that the left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing, alas this was a problem that you have inherited with your new position.

Necro players already know that your fix will remove them from WvW completely, its just what happens around here, dont believe me, go read the necro sub forum.

[Sobx.1758]

@misterman.1530 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@misterman.1530 said:Typical. And typical responses from the typical people. Yea, Scourges are incredible in a zerg. Roaming, not so much. Scourges will not one-shot someone like a SoulBeast or a DeadEye. Scourges have NO defense and are generally running glass. But by all means, nerf us more and give us no retaliation or blocks. Hey, for funsies, why not make the one pathetic port we have take 10 seconds to cast - that'll teach us.

Does Anet even play the class?

"Scourges are incredible in a zerg" and that's what they're targeting, so why are you complaining about roaming here? I don't really get it. Or are you another one of those people that think the single class they're playing should be strong at everything they want to do?

Yes. Because other classes are also incredible in a zerg and also can roam. Is this something you are unaware of? I mean, other people later on in this thread have explained the power other classes bring, so I'll let you go read those. I really thought, however, that I didn't need to mention the skillset of every other class every time I bring up that nerfing Scourges isn't the right thing to do.

With the same builds/specs? No, they're not.It seems you missed "and that's what they're targeting, so why are you complaining about roaming here? I don't really get it.". Was roaming ability targeted here in any meaningfull way? What are you talking about? Is your argument basically "this paticular necro build isn't good at roaming so it should overperform in zerg fights"? Because that's just wrong.

[Agrippa.1693]

I think the Necro is now going to be the only profession that's not META in any of the gamemodes. In PvE (endgame) it has pretty much never been META since 2012, in PvP it's out of META since the last shade change, and now WvW as well ... There's litterally no profession that has that! Well, only one can be the absolute worst, right?!

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I think the Necro is now going to be the only profession that's not META in any of the gamemodes. In PvE (endgame) it has pretty much never been META since 2012, in PvP it's out of META since the last shade change, and now WvW as well ... There's litterally no profession that has that! Well, only one can be the absolute worst, right?!

So u think scourge isnt meta now and hasn't been or do u mean core necro when u say that?

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I think the Necro is now going to be the only profession that's not META in any of the gamemodes. In PvE (endgame) it has pretty much never been META since 2012, in PvP it's out of META since the last shade change, and now WvW as well ... There's litterally no profession that has that! Well, only one can be the absolute worst, right?!

its still gonna be meta in wvw xD

[Famine.7915]

Remember that these changes are locked down. We look forward to your thoughts.

Fixed it for you. <3

[Mordayn.6198]

I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

[GaijinGuy.8476]

I’m no expert in any game mode but I do cruise the forums quite often. The changes mentioned in this post and the PvP post are all things I have see other players talk about as well. How the changes will effect things I cannot say (not experienced enough to comment) but it is promising to see that voices are being heard!

[Sobx.1758]

@Famine.7915 said:Remember that these changes are locked down. We look forward to your thoughts.

Fixed it for you. <3

a-ha! You're trying to make them prove that they're not locked down by not implementing the changes you don't like. That's genius!

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Personally I believe that focusing on balance at the large scale level isn't the right approach as it will likely result in neglect/imbalance at the small scale level.

However, if we things are balanced from the small scale perspective, naturally it will translate into a balanced large scale level.

Balances should be focused at the small scale level (5 players party size) even in WvW.

And this should apply to all classes.

[Sobx.1758]

@miguelsil.6324 said:Too much reward with little to no risk.

How's that vid going btw? (not trying to be a kitten, real question)

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@Mordayn.6198 said:I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

[LetoII.3782]

How many days now since Cal dropped a comment?

[God.2708]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Mordayn.6198 said:I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

[Kent.7865]

How about looking into Merciful Intervention? It is still broken and applies a heal to downed in addition to the revival percentage. Insta-revives 70+% on any target

[Emberheart.8426]

@God.2708 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Mordayn.6198 said:I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

[God.2708]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@God.2708 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Mordayn.6198 said:I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

[arenta.2953]

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at WvW.

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

In particular we’re looking at:

• Scourge

We’ve identified scourge as the major pain point in WvW right now, and more specifically Sand Savant’s big shade affecting 10 targets. This has pushed scourge far above other options in terms of damage, while also adding to its strong corrupts and solid barrier application. There are other aspects of scourge that we’re looking into for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that reducing their target cap back down to 5 is a significant change and we want to see how the meta adjusts before making any additional changes to shades. We do still have concerns about their corrupt potential, so we’re also making a slight adjustment to Devouring Darkness.

• Sand Savant: This trait no longer increases the target cap of shade skills in WvW only
• Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

HURRAY. finally!

ok you've got my attention and optimism now =D

i look forward to the next.

[eXruina.4956]

Boon spam and high defensive boon uptime is a problem in WvW.. and ANET's solution.. further nerf boon corruption after nerfing it in previous patch... AMAZING.. GENIUS.. CLAP CLAP CLAP!! ("(>___<)")

[eXruina.4956]

Just to be fair.. I look forward to the rest of this future patch.. ^^

[Emberheart.8426]

@God.2708 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@God.2708 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Mordayn.6198 said:I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

Did you completely skip the entire post you quoted before? FB is responsible for quite a few professions and specs not being good in zergs. It's way better than other supports, so it makes those redundant. It spams reflects and retal, which serve as a major restriction to what damage specs you can bring.

[wisebear.9176]

@Cal Cohen.2358Please consider integrating your pvp-specific changes into wvw aswell, they won't affect blob vs blob too much but they might make small groups/roaming experience a little less miserable.

[subversiontwo.7501]

The amount of people here complaining about things that provide mobility or survivability is jaw-dropping when we have had 2 years or more of an all-time low of time-to-kill and and all-time high of crowd-control. It's like they don't want to balance out the game and just keep going in a boring meta that locks every melee build out of inclusion. Those stupid comments really seethes me. If anything, the game needs more stability and protection deeming by how most content plays out at the moment. It is nowhere near as prevalent as the might and fury that seems to be leaking out of everything these days because PvE is balanced around a 100% uptime of them.

As far as the topic of the thread goes. Any change is probably a good change at this point but alot of things have been done to beat around the bush of the issue that I fear that alot of new imbalances have been created for when the big pink elephant has been properly adressed. I've never understood why they couldn't just drop the range of the Shades down to 600 so the reach of them stayed at 900. That was always the real problem and never the damage or the ability to project them in two places at once. The real issue has always been that Shades project to 1200 (despite supposedly being a 900-ability) and that no one can produce any other form of damage without the risk of getting stuck in a shade-bomb that rip-cc-damages you at once. I don't mind Shades being strong, they should just never have been the all-purpose solution. They were supposed to be mid-range.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:The amount of people here complaining about things that provide mobility or survivability is jaw-dropping when we have had 2 years or more of an all-time low of time-to-kill and and all-time high of crowd-control. It's like they don't want to balance out the game and just keep going in a boring meta that locks every melee build out of inclusion. Those stupid comments really seethes me. If anything, the game needs more stability and protection deeming by how most content plays out at the moment. It is nowhere near as prevalent as the might and fury that seems to be leaking out of everything these days because PvE is balanced around a 100% uptime of them.

As far as the topic of the thread goes. Any change is probably a good change at this point but alot of things have been done to beat around the bush of the issue that I fear that alot of new imbalances have been created for when the big pink elephant has been properly adressed. I've never understood why they couldn't just drop the range of the Shades down to 600 so the reach of them stayed at 900. That was always the real problem and never the damage or the ability to project them in two places at once. The real issue has always been that Shades project to 1200 (despite supposedly being a 900-ability) and that no one can produce any other form of damage without the risk of getting stuck in a shade-bomb that rip-cc-damages you at once. I don't mind Shades being strong, they should just never have been the all-purpose solution. They were supposed to be mid-range.

*Every meleebuild that is not permadodge or perma invuln longer then 10s

[fresh.5041]

The real issue has always been that Shades project to 1200 (despite supposedly being a 900-ability) and that no one can produce any other form of damage without the risk of getting stuck in a shade-bomb that rip-cc-damages you at once. I don't mind Shades being strong, they should just never have been the all-purpose solution. They were supposed to be mid-range.

this