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New nerfs to Mirage


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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

staff 4 is trash becouse it has antisynergy with the weapon itself, using 4 refreshes it. meanwhile with staff you go chaos so you have 2 storms to leap from. its bad.staff 3 after nerfs will be horrible too, staff 5 will be ok. leaving us with auto, ambush and staff 2. entire weapon will be trash, move on to different ones as usual.sad to see, expecially since scepter ambush is just better then staff, lol

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The Chaos Vortex nerfs are okay if they were just clone only. I knew it was only so long for this skill to be an outlier in terms of Infinite Horizon and having clones do the full condition power of the real mirage's ambush.

But we're looking at a skill that's a costs a dodge roll, has a lengthy cast time that can only be 50% covered with Mirage Cloak, is a projectile and doesn't home and thus you need to either set up your shot so that they're unlikely to be able to maneuver or stun them into it because otherwise you can just circle strafe it. For all of that plus taking 12 seconds for the condition damage to fully role out, 4,000 damage in total Chaos Vortex from the main mesmer is more than fair I think. There are two main problems and neither is Chaos Vortex from the Mirage themselves.

First is that the clones don't have the 50% reduced duration you see on the scepter ambushes. So if the Mirage and all four clones hit you're looking at 14,500 condition damage from one skill that can be fired pretty rapidly. Now if clones had similar reduced damage like with Scepter and Axe clones, the passivity you see people complain about would be a loss less of an issue. Trying to chase down a mirage and getting pot shot from off sceen because a clone lobbed a 3.6k pot shot at you is pretty unpleasant.

The second is that clones from Deceptive Evasion spawn automatically doing their ambush attack. It just gives too much value onto the dodge roll all in one go. Infinite Horizon is in theory a damage bonus for maintaining a lot of illusions when you proc Mirage Cloak. So every dodge roll is throwing some kind of damage out at your opponent, rather than ones that meet certain conditions.

@Levetty.1279 said:

@DarthEros.3547 said:Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @Cal Cohen.3527 has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.

Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.

Last time around the preview went through multiple iterations. Off the top of my head they wanted to increase the cooldown on Illusion of Life to 90 seconds and halve the duration of Illusion of Life. After the initial patch they settled on keeping the cooldown and duration in tact, but removing the 3 seconds of pure mercy invulnerability that the targets receive when first reviving.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

the classic, 2x chaos storm on top of eachother+ chaos armour, and ele just runs into them and kills you becouse he evades 80% of the ticks anyways and 20% that goes throught gets cleansed or is useless :D

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The changes to staff are pretty outrageous. While it deals solid damage for such a strong defensive kit, it's really only lighting people up if they stand still and get pelted with quad chaos vortex repeatedly. A drastic reduction like this will make it difficult, perhaps even impossible (assuming a certain degree of competence) to apply meaningful pressure. At the same time, you want to take away the best part about the phantasm? With no mention of any improvements in other areas that might compensate somewhat?

It's...a bit much. And I'm supposed to trust you with reworking the defining mechanic of the class? I'm concerned that whatever you come up with may alter the basic feel of the class.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

Mirror comps and discouragement seems outside the topic of a utility weapon intended for general mitigation. And you cannot exactly waste chaos storm unless you are whiffing a ranged interrupt. 5>4>2 can be performed while kiting/juking/bunkering.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

Mirror comps and discouragement seems outside the topic of a utility weapon intended for general mitigation. And you cannot exactly waste chaos storm unless you are whiffing a ranged interrupt. 5>4>2 can be performed while kiting/juking/bunkering.

The point was to highlight how any player should be able to fairly easily play through or negate the effects of these abilities if fighting against a mesmer.5 at range is often a waste unless moving into it following interrupt (eg blink/jaunt to pressure), or chasing a low health target in the hope of keeping in combat (given how bad staff is at chasing compared with say GS), as is otherwise just walked out of or at most one thing such as dodge.

Sure these skills do something, but if damage is being nerfed then this apparent utility should be more impactful than it is now. 5 is acceptable as said previously, so my gripe remains with 4 and that's unlikely to change.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise
one may as well stop playing.

Worked for me.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise
one may as well stop playing.

Worked for me.

To be fair though I'll always enjoy casual open world pve - more fun than eg going to an art gallery. xD GW2 visuals are still some of the best out there for things like environment design, skill aesthetics and so on, and at least I have some interaction with the painting, haha!

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

Mirror comps and discouragement seems outside the topic of a utility weapon intended for general mitigation. And you cannot exactly waste chaos storm unless you are whiffing a ranged interrupt. 5>4>2 can be performed while kiting/juking/bunkering.

The point was to highlight how any player should be able to fairly easily play through or negate the effects of these abilities if fighting against a mesmer.5 at range is often a waste unless moving into it following interrupt (eg blink/jaunt to pressure), or chasing a low health target in the hope of keeping in combat (given how bad staff is at chasing compared with say GS), as is otherwise just walked out of or at most one thing such as dodge.

But 5 is ground targeted. You would have to specfically choose to put it at an inaccessible range vs a moving target to waste it.

Sure these skills do something, but if damage is being nerfed then this apparent utility should be more impactful than it is now. 5 is acceptable as said previously, so my gripe remains with 4 and that's unlikely to change.

You can waste shocking aura vs ranged targets or magnetic aura vs non projectiles. Chaos aura always has an effect. And the boons from chaos aura/storm can help you mitigate a variety of situations.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

Mirror comps and discouragement seems outside the topic of a utility weapon intended for general mitigation. And you cannot exactly waste chaos storm unless you are whiffing a ranged interrupt. 5>4>2 can be performed while kiting/juking/bunkering.

The point was to highlight how any player should be able to fairly easily play through or negate the effects of these abilities if fighting against a mesmer.5 at range is often a waste unless moving into it following interrupt (eg blink/jaunt to pressure), or chasing a low health target in the hope of keeping in combat (given how bad staff is at chasing compared with say GS), as is otherwise just walked out of or at most one thing such as dodge.

But 5 is ground targeted. You would have to specfically choose to put it at an inaccessible range vs a moving target to waste it.

Sure these skills do something, but if damage is being nerfed then this apparent utility should be more impactful than it is now. 5 is acceptable as said previously, so my gripe remains with 4 and that's unlikely to change.

You can waste shocking aura vs ranged targets or magnetic aura vs non projectiles. Chaos aura always has an effect. And the boons from chaos aura/storm can help you mitigate a variety of situations.

You might hit the daze at range sure, but nobody's going to sit and tank in it for more than a second unless someone is ressing a downed body.

Staff 4 initial cast random condi from the pool, often proccing something fairly useless like 1 stack of confusion so clutch weakness can't be relied upon. Even then the icd on chaos aura means both condi and boon procs aren't significant. For condis, confusion and cripple are negligible - so it's only weakness which has any good value, and luck to proc it. For boons, this is slightly better though 15% banner boosts and teleports mean rng swiftness is just so-so, regen is nice (though as mirage with renewing oasis it's kind of superfluous) and protection again ok until the damage levels in the game get severely reduced. The single good thing about it is traited guaranteed protection.

Untraited it's too much luck on long cooldowns to rely on any kind of significant mitigation beyond minor hits that active evades or blocks doesn't do better - where otherwise you are dead with the amount of damage this game has flying around at the moment.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to change opinion on this one - for sure I still love and use staff, but this is all down to skill 2 with its godlike kiting potential. If it wasn't for phase retreat, and at the moment the clone ambush with IH until they likely also nerf it in wvw, I'd take greatsword.

If 4 remained the same in function, I would need to see something like the following to be impactful:Guaranteed proc of all three condi on cast, not one random out of three.Guaranteed proc of all three boons on cast - with further procs on being hit as usual.New pool of Weakness, Chill (at least 3s) and another third condi that isn't cripple (unless Anet nerf multiple classes ability to completely ignore this condition)Maybe instead of all the boon and condi proc, there could be an aoe daze on activation of staff 4.Chaotic Dampening could be changed to something different not necessarily revolving around chaos aura - maybe a new concept with staff cooldown.

There's a lot of possibilities.

Alternative is when they nerf the entire game as much as they say they are going to, and things like staff 4 will be balanced relative to everything else.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @Koen.1327 suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

Mirror comps and discouragement seems outside the topic of a utility weapon intended for general mitigation. And you cannot exactly waste chaos storm unless you are whiffing a ranged interrupt. 5>4>2 can be performed while kiting/juking/bunkering.

The point was to highlight how any player should be able to fairly easily play through or negate the effects of these abilities if fighting against a mesmer.5 at range is often a waste unless moving into it following interrupt (eg blink/jaunt to pressure), or chasing a low health target in the hope of keeping in combat (given how bad staff is at chasing compared with say GS), as is otherwise just walked out of or at most one thing such as dodge.

But 5 is ground targeted. You would have to specfically choose to put it at an inaccessible range vs a moving target to waste it.

Sure these skills do something, but if damage is being nerfed then this apparent utility should be more impactful than it is now. 5 is acceptable as said previously, so my gripe remains with 4 and that's unlikely to change.

You can waste shocking aura vs ranged targets or magnetic aura vs non projectiles. Chaos aura always has an effect. And the boons from chaos aura/storm can help you mitigate a variety of situations.

You might hit the daze at range sure, but nobody's going to sit and tank in it for more than a second unless someone is ressing a downed body.

Staff 4 initial cast random condi from the pool, often proccing something fairly useless like 1 stack of confusion so clutch weakness can't be relied upon. Even then the icd on chaos aura means both condi and boon procs aren't significant. For condis, confusion and cripple are negligible - so it's only weakness which has any good value, and luck to proc it. For boons, this is slightly better though 15% banner boosts and teleports mean rng swiftness is just so-so, regen is nice (though as mirage with renewing oasis it's kind of superfluous) and protection again ok until the damage levels in the game get severely reduced. The single good thing about it is traited guaranteed protection.

Untraited it's too much luck on long cooldowns to rely on any kind of significant mitigation beyond minor hits that active evades or blocks doesn't do better - where otherwise you are dead with the amount of damage this game has flying around at the moment.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to change opinion on this one - for sure I still love and use staff, but this is all down to skill 2 with its godlike kiting potential. If it wasn't for phase retreat, and at the moment the clone ambush with IH until they likely also nerf it in wvw, I'd take greatsword.

If 4 remained the same in function, I would need to see something like the following to be impactful:Guaranteed proc of
all three
condi on cast, not one random out of three.Guaranteed proc of all three boons on cast - with further procs on being hit as usual.New pool of Weakness, Chill (at least 3s) and another third condi that isn't cripple (unless Anet nerf multiple classes ability to completely ignore this condition)Maybe instead of all the boon and condi proc, there could be an aoe daze on activation of staff 4.Chaotic Dampening could be changed to something different not necessarily revolving around chaos aura - maybe a new concept with staff cooldown.

There's a lot of possibilities.

Alternative is when they nerf the entire game as much as they say they are going to, and things like staff 4 will be balanced relative to everything else.

I think you approach staff differently than me. It is a melee weapon first. 1,2,4,5 all lose part of their benefit if you are facing a ranged enemy who can simply pew pew without chasing you. Focus and shield are better for the playstyle you describe. A hyper mobile distant target who doesn't need to come to you.

Primarily, the chaos storm goes to positions I will stand in or move through. And is coupled with chaos aura, first from 4 then 2's finisher, for long amounts of chaos aura. Optimally my enemy will also be forced to move into its location to attack me, and when they get to me I tank the hit or teleport out. But if not, getting aegis/retaliation/protection/regeneration/swiftness up is more important against a ranged target than a single daze. Unless I am facing something like a ranger about to rapid fire.

As someone who also plays auramancer extensively. The aura by itself is in no way the worst. It just needs a better effect when cast.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I am slightly on edge regarding mirage cloak given what happened to chrono, but I suppose also feeling slightly in positive anticipation that maybe there could be some good changes going forward.

I stand by what I said in that thread regarding Staff though - needs more utility if they want to push it to utility. Staff 4 needs deleting and replacing with new utility.

Optimism is nonsensical at this point. You might as well start posting ideas for elite specializations you dreamt up.

I said slightly positive anticipation because there's always a sliver of hope otherwise one may as well stop playing.

There is a difference between a sliver of hope and asking them to kitten up a perfectly fine skill because you believe it could be better.Whenever you have to declare you stand by your opinion maybe post about a potential e-spec instead.. At least in that case if they take your advise and mess up you haven't impacted the rest of the profession.

I don't recall anywhere me asking them to do anything to mirage cloak. I stand by everything I wrote here:

I also maintain staff 4 needs modifying to make it more unique and impactful as a skill as it has been in a poor state since the number of chaos armour nerfs a long time ago - which I have suggested various things in the past. Even something as minor as providing aoe protection sharing on cast, or active aoe blind application on cast would go a long way to reinforcing it.

At this point I'm wondering if you're just wanting to perpetuate this due to my stance in your other thread. I've got no issue with you, but do recognise I am an advocate for preserving fun gameplay on mirage as it is the only spec and reason I play this game any more.

My response wasn't about mc. I simply don't understand why you would suggest a change to staff 4. It's fine. Even great in some instances.It's not as good as 2 or 5 but it doesn't need a redesign. Giving it a chained skill like @"Koen.1327" suggested sure. Thinking they could push it farther than that without messing staff up further seems weird at this point. That's why I suggested you make an elite thread instead. If they mess up one of those weapons it doesn't affect the rest of mesmer.

If it has gotten to the point where mirage is your only reason to play I don't see why you would trust them with your suggestion.

Edit: I don't want to make it seem like I believe they are incompetent. They've made a lot of good decisions and reworks. I just believe they should concentrate on repairing stuff before they try for new stuff. It is a difficult job and they need to give themselves room to mess up.

My reasoning for staff 4 is looking back at what it used to do with rng blind (understandably removed due to luck factor of counterplay) and before the icd on boon/condi procs (understandably too powerful at the time).

But more crucially I find it a dull concept - a skill that just gives an aura with single on activation minor aoe condi proc. And that aura has to be traited for to be somewhat decent, nevermind that it's easy to get the base aura effect from leaping through 5 with 2 or Jaunt etc making it less unique as a dedicated weapon skill.

In the spirit of trying to give more variety to staff rather than 111+2 monotonous gameplay, for me it would be nice to have a number 4 skill that also was more visually and mechanically interesting.

Comparing with Greatsword on the other hand where all the skills are fairly unique, or even our offhands which in general have interesting 4 and 5 skills, hence being more stimulating stimulating to play. At this point the only reason I continue to use staff is Phase Retreat is so powerful, otherwise any combination of main/offhand is likely more effective while also being more fun to use, especially if these damage nerfs go through to wvw and pve too.

Though I see your point that any kind of significant change is historically likely to turn out worse, so I can accept leaving things like this alone for now.

I think where we disagree is how good chaos aura is. I already see it as decent without traits. 10 seconds of it from staff 4 + 5&2 is always welcome, especially on builds that don't want to build for those boons. And I don't consider blind vastly better than weakness. Also, you keep mentioning phase retreat and not chaos storm as a reason to use staff, when that skill is fantastic. It is the only source of chill/poison on mesmer. It is 1/3 abilities that can give retaliation, and 1/4 aegis. It had a ~76% chance of dazing once, that is now 100%.

Well from the perspective of a mirror match, between the prevalence of cleanses and hard avoidance through evades I don't find chaos armour on an opponent at all discouraging and happy to continue to pressure with damage. Protection is not that strong compared with damage output potential on power or condi, and again usually evading the minor condi from chaos armour - of which only weakness has any significance, or between jaunt/cleansing sigils/torch4/mantra of resolve, if they get applied they either get removed or fall off quickly.

Similarly for chaos storm, evades and cleanse mean I just continue to attack through it after the first tick (unless it gets dropped on you, but this is negligable for mirage). The condi durations are so short that even if one or two ticks of application isn't avoided, they fall off quickly enough as it is, not even having to use any cleanse.

And that's if the mesmer sits in chaos storm - whereas for a mobile fight in wvw it might not be any concern as you just force them to keep kiting or similar - quite often that aoe position can be wasted outside of a leap finisher to get the aura.

It can be argued that cleanse being far too accessible makes these minor condi application almost completely ignorable, nevermind hard avoidance so they don't get applied in the first place.

From that perspective I find both staff 4 and 5 underwhelming. 5 gets a pass due to Aegis and the Daze tick for interrupt.

Phase Retreat on the other hand is and has always been one of the best skills on the entire class.

Mirror comps and discouragement seems outside the topic of a utility weapon intended for general mitigation. And you cannot exactly waste chaos storm unless you are whiffing a ranged interrupt. 5>4>2 can be performed while kiting/juking/bunkering.

The point was to highlight how any player should be able to fairly easily play through or negate the effects of these abilities if fighting against a mesmer.5 at range is often a waste unless moving into it following interrupt (eg blink/jaunt to pressure), or chasing a low health target in the hope of keeping in combat (given how bad staff is at chasing compared with say GS), as is otherwise just walked out of or at most one thing such as dodge.

But 5 is ground targeted. You would have to specfically choose to put it at an inaccessible range vs a moving target to waste it.

Sure these skills do something, but if damage is being nerfed then this apparent utility should be more impactful than it is now. 5 is acceptable as said previously, so my gripe remains with 4 and that's unlikely to change.

You can waste shocking aura vs ranged targets or magnetic aura vs non projectiles. Chaos aura always has an effect. And the boons from chaos aura/storm can help you mitigate a variety of situations.

You might hit the daze at range sure, but nobody's going to sit and tank in it for more than a second unless someone is ressing a downed body.

Staff 4 initial cast random condi from the pool, often proccing something fairly useless like 1 stack of confusion so clutch weakness can't be relied upon. Even then the icd on chaos aura means both condi and boon procs aren't significant. For condis, confusion and cripple are negligible - so it's only weakness which has any good value, and luck to proc it. For boons, this is slightly better though 15% banner boosts and teleports mean rng swiftness is just so-so, regen is nice (though as mirage with renewing oasis it's kind of superfluous) and protection again ok until the damage levels in the game get severely reduced. The single good thing about it is traited guaranteed protection.

Untraited it's too much luck on long cooldowns to rely on any kind of significant mitigation beyond minor hits that active evades or blocks doesn't do better - where otherwise you are dead with the amount of damage this game has flying around at the moment.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to change opinion on this one - for sure I still love and use staff, but this is all down to skill 2 with its godlike kiting potential. If it wasn't for phase retreat, and at the moment the clone ambush with IH until they likely also nerf it in wvw, I'd take greatsword.

If 4 remained the same in function, I would need to see something like the following to be impactful:Guaranteed proc of
all three
condi on cast, not one random out of three.Guaranteed proc of all three boons on cast - with further procs on being hit as usual.New pool of Weakness, Chill (at least 3s) and another third condi that isn't cripple (unless Anet nerf multiple classes ability to completely ignore this condition)Maybe instead of all the boon and condi proc, there could be an aoe daze on activation of staff 4.Chaotic Dampening could be changed to something different not necessarily revolving around chaos aura - maybe a new concept with staff cooldown.

There's a lot of possibilities.

Alternative is when they nerf the entire game as much as they say they are going to, and things like staff 4 will be balanced relative to everything else.

I think you approach staff differently than me. It is a melee weapon first. 1,2,4,5 all lose part of their benefit if you are facing a ranged enemy who can simply pew pew without chasing you. Focus and shield are better for the playstyle you describe. A hyper mobile distant target who doesn't need to come to you.

Primarily, the chaos storm goes to positions I will stand in or move through. And is coupled with chaos aura, first from 4 then 2's finisher, for long amounts of chaos aura. Optimally my enemy will also be forced to move into its location to attack me, and when they get to me I tank the hit or teleport out. But if not, getting aegis/retaliation/protection/regeneration/swiftness up is more important against a ranged target than a single daze. Unless I am facing something like a ranger about to rapid fire.

As someone who also plays auramancer extensively. The aura by itself is in no way the worst. It just needs a better effect when cast.

I think this also depends chrono or mirage - I assume you are mostly chrono? I never play chrono now since pof launch.

That scenario with staff 5 is what I described earlier - casting at range to move into it and benefit from the boons. Either way it's the boons, that are the most useful - especially taking into account chaotic persistence.

On the note of range - I was responding to your point about using as a ranged ground targeted interrupt. As said previously, 5 is always most beneficial when you can stand in it, whether moving into or casting at feet, so what you describe is already what I had expressed. The impact on an enemy at the moment, beyond the interrupt for res etc is minimal.

Please don't tell me which weapons are best for my playstyle though.

Coming back to staff 4, I think something as simple as AoE daze on cast, similar to Master of Fragmentation F3, would be sufficient to bring this skill into the "somewhat decent" category.

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@phokus.8934 said:

@DarthEros.3547 said:Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @"Cal Cohen.3527" has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.

Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.

They should change the wording of their threads from "Feedback" to something a little less ironic.

I remember someone saying that only way they listen is WVW forums might as well try that to cry about mesmer issues in WVW to see if they listen?

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@Axl.8924 said:

@DarthEros.3547 said:Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @"Cal Cohen.3527" has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.

Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.

They should change the wording of their threads from "Feedback" to something a little less ironic.

I remember someone saying that only way they listen is WVW forums might as well try that to cry about mesmer issues in WVW to see if they listen?

Is it worth it? what are the odds of them screwing this up even more?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@DarthEros.3547 said:Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @"Cal Cohen.3527" has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.

Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.

They should change the wording of their threads from "Feedback" to something a little less ironic.

I remember someone saying that only way they listen is WVW forums might as well try that to cry about mesmer issues in WVW to see if they listen?

Is it worth it? what are the odds of them screwing this up even more?

They probably will mess it up anyway since ANET is incompetent.

How many times have people, for instance, pointed out issues mesmers have and they nerf the completely wrong thing? probably quite a bit, and then not only not compensating mesmers but leaving it the way it was after the massive nerf.

The nerfs to Chrono hurt in PVE a little and I get the feeling they rarely listen to people when the class that is getting nerfs warns them that this nerf they do might kill the class or severely cripple them to the point of being undesirable in PvE.

The nerf to cloak mentioned by people could have dire consequences, but the people asking for it aren't the ones who are going to pay the consequences, it is always at the expense of player fun.

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@DarthEros.3547 said:Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @"Cal Cohen.3527" has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.

Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.

They should change the wording of their threads from "Feedback" to something a little less ironic.

I remember someone saying that only way they listen is WVW forums might as well try that to cry about mesmer issues in WVW to see if they listen?

Is it worth it? what are the odds of them screwing this up even more?

They probably will mess it up anyway since ANET is incompetent.

How many times have people, for instance, pointed out issues mesmers have and they nerf the completely wrong thing? probably quite a bit, and then not only not compensating mesmers but leaving it the way it was after the massive nerf.

The nerfs to Chrono hurt in PVE a little and I get the feeling they rarely listen to people when the class that is getting nerfs warns them that this nerf they do might kill the class or severely cripple them to the point of being undesirable in PvE.

The nerf to cloak mentioned by people could have dire consequences, but the people asking for it aren't the ones who are going to pay the consequences, it is always at the expense of player fun.

yet, reminds me of that post a guy made, "simple mirage tweak" or something, Its easy to propose such hard handed nerfs, if you wont have to play the spec after them, most people want to just keep taking away things, and with how developers shown bias I dont think they are capable of being reasonable, everything keeps getting nerfed by 50%, ridiculous.meanwhile other special snowflake classes get gentle taps for 12%, or even my favourite !guardian got 20% dmg buff on one of its powers during no balance patch notes, LOL

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The current suggested changes are more or less fine, but fails to solve the actual problem of condi Mirage.

What NEEDS to be done, at least in terms of PvP is reduce the reliance and necessity of clone spam and ambush doing most of the leg work for damage. Nerfing illusion generation is nothing but a bandaid that will only make the class feel ALOT worse in the long run; when the main issue is properly resolved... (if anything mostly because devs stubbornly refuse to revert changes.)

As for Mirage cloak: if chrono is any example, then yeah I’m scared.

Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

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@"Daishi.6027" said:The current suggested changes are more or less fine, but fails to solve the actual problem of condi Mirage.

What NEEDS to be done, at least in terms of PvP is reduce the reliance and necessity of clone spam and ambush doing most of the leg work for damage. Nerfing illusion generation is nothing but a bandaid that will only make the class feel ALOT worse in the long run; when the main issue is properly resolved... (if anything mostly because devs stubbornly refuse to revert changes.)

As for Mirage cloak: if chrono is any example, then yeah I’m scared.

Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

It is not fine. Take any weapon in the game. Now cut the damage in half. Would any of them be "fine"? That this is even up for debate should shatter any confidence you may have had with regard to balance in this game.

Now consider the available trait lines. People take issue with the fact that mirage can apply solid, consistent pressure using a defensive trait line like chaos. What is the alternative? Illusions, which is entirely shatter-focused and has been nerfed to the point where it doesn't pack near enough punch. It doesn't add enough damage to the playstyle for the tradeoffs it brings. You can fix this by addressing infinite horizon, but we need some BIG damage buffs to make this work!

Finally, consider previous nerfs. If not staff, then what? Scepter received the same treatment already. So did axe. Where is the ability to apply counter-pressure and burst going to come from with every weapon hitting like a wet noodle, shatters dealing less damage than clones, and whatever they intend to do to mirage cloak on top of that?

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@DarthEros.3547 said:Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @"Cal Cohen.3527" has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.

Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.

They should change the wording of their threads from "Feedback" to something a little less ironic.

I remember someone saying that only way they listen is WVW forums might as well try that to cry about mesmer issues in WVW to see if they listen?

Is it worth it? what are the odds of them screwing this up even more?

They probably will mess it up anyway since ANET is incompetent.

How many times have people, for instance, pointed out issues mesmers have and they nerf the completely wrong thing? probably quite a bit, and then not only not compensating mesmers but leaving it the way it was after the massive nerf.

sadly this happens to every-class except guardian for the most part i guess its mesmers turn up on the chopping block again.

The nerfs to Chrono hurt in PVE a little and I get the feeling they rarely listen to people when the class that is getting nerfs warns them that this nerf they do might kill the class or severely cripple them to the point of being undesirable in PvE.

The nerf to cloak mentioned by people could have dire consequences, but the people asking for it aren't the ones who are going to pay the consequences, it is always at the expense of player fun.

Sometimes it hurts in the long run to make cool outlier mechanics that no other profession has.ExampleScourge shadesMirage cloak +EM or IH

Every other elite spec is more or less just getting the numbers in the right spot or cutting down the boons but these 2 things are so volatile in terms of balance that they cant properly balance them. Fun for the user not fun for anyone fighting it (while its super advantageous/effective) even more so when you are looking at examples like bugged released scourge that insta melted people for 2 months. And Condi Mirage staff + IH full damage clones which was just painful for the majority of people to fight against.

This game was not ready for a mechanic that allowed players to dodge while doing sizable amounts of condi damage in return or dodging without getting cast interrupted or while under cc.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:The current suggested changes are more or less fine, but fails to solve the actual problem of condi Mirage.

What NEEDS to be done, at least in terms of PvP is reduce the reliance and necessity of clone spam and ambush doing most of the leg work for damage. Nerfing illusion generation is nothing but a bandaid that will only make the class feel ALOT worse in the long run; when the main issue is properly resolved... (if anything mostly because devs stubbornly refuse to revert changes.)

As for Mirage cloak: if chrono is any example, then yeah I’m scared.

Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

It is not fine. Take any weapon in the game. Now cut the damage in half. Would any of them be "fine"?

Depending on the weapon and profession yes actually some weapons are highly over tuned right now and cutting them by half in pvp would work wonders. (assuming this is a short term fix and not a long term. Long term the better long term solution would be to just give everyone a boon culling

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@Engal.6359 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:

Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

Why? At least in pvp it's pretty balanced atm.

Not compared to any medium armor (where it's literally replaceable in slot), or war, or condi weaver. And is significantly less defining in a team fight than Rev, FB, or Necro.

It's inferior to it's condi counterpart, even after it gets nerfed because reliable consistent damage you can apply while dodging will always trump one shot burts vs anyone who can read. While Core mes does better simply because it can hide the burst better.

I'd argue Power Mirage Might be balanced if this is the standard to which we are basing a truly "balanced" spec that EVERY OTHER class should use as an example to scale by. Hopefully therefore being balanced after everything is finally cut down and brought in line... But I don't consider general under performance to be "balanced".

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:The current suggested changes are more or less fine, but fails to solve the actual problem of condi Mirage.

What NEEDS to be done, at least in terms of PvP is reduce the reliance and necessity of clone spam and ambush doing most of the leg work for damage. Nerfing illusion generation is nothing but a bandaid that will only make the class feel ALOT worse in the long run; when the main issue is properly resolved... (if anything mostly because devs stubbornly refuse to revert changes.)

As for Mirage cloak: if chrono is any example, then yeah I’m scared.

Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

It is not fine. Take any weapon in the game. Now cut the damage in half. Would any of them be "fine"?

Depending on the weapon and profession yes actually some weapons are highly over tuned right now and cutting them by half in pvp would work wonders. (assuming this is a short term fix and not a long term. Long term the better long term solution would be to just give everyone a boon culling

And I concur 100% with this statement. Looking at you War and Holo.

Warlock I hope gets to maintain it's damage in 1 phantasm beyond just the vuln stacks, but Chaos Vortex did do to much; and is frankly part of the issue with condi mirage. Hopefully they will be smart enough to drag the main condi application options back to the shatters, or find a new system of application.

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