Mictrotransactions (inc. Build Templates) are Manufactured QoL Solutions at Best....

[Xynxycs.6718]

... and harmful (current) standard industry practice at worse. [An Open Post].

[Repost]. I've been informed that my comments weren't respectful or constructive. My intention is to be entirely respective and constructive, so I'll post again with close attention to the community standards. Please excuse my passion.

Anet, I've played your games for years. It's true.

For many recent years however, it is of my opinion that you have been offering more and more meagre offerings in the form of micro-transactions and overtly advertising them through your game, be it the small things, "LOCKED" icons, or the more prominent RNG loot-box gambling mechanics such as the Black Lion Keys, mount skins. It is my opinion that the latest update concerning the built templates is in quite poor taste.

I have a lot of respect for the artists and coders who build this game, and I feel that, in my opinion, these monitization practices are gluttonous, unnecessary and besmirches the fine efforts of their creators.

[Passive] QoL is being monitized, and it quite hurts the goodwill of the fans, which is the driving engine of the game. This is like [proverbially] stripping a mansion of its furniture to prolong the fire. It is an unsustainable and cynical practice, in my opinion. I have no doubt, according to my judgement, and according to the path I have seen so far, that this practice will not be the last. Nor is this a hill I wish to die upon, proverbially.

I have heard that voting with my money should provide the solution to the conundrum which I seek. I do doubt this, for a single pair of hands pushing back the tide reaps nought. Where once I pressed my friends to play with me, I shudder to imagine of their opinion of me, seeing as they would the heavy practice of microtransaction maligned upon the game as they are. They know better than I do. I've learned to see the "Enter your Card Details Here" screen as just another part of the game. Call it my own stupidity, but games have always helped me push through some dark times and I've use them as a way to escape horrible situations. I've had some wonderful times playing your games. But I've put money into this one, even against my best interests, because I didn't see it as real. The lines are blurred. Yes, my faculties really are that broken at times, especially dark times.

The microtransaction practice of which I speak are industry-wide, well-known-and-used psychological tricks / mobile game style manipulations [1] [similar and indiscernible from] gambling. Every other publisher is complying to the (currently) law, and making bank. "Would you jump off a cliff if they did it?" I'd ask little Jimmy, if he told me "But all my friends are doing it!" These practices (in my opinion) are hurting people. See [2] for stories of people effected )Trigger Warnings for people effected by gambling addictions and swear words)

<<SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT (Respectfully)>>

Remove the gambling mechanics which involve, directly or indirectly, real world money. They hurt people. See Jim Stirling's video on the subject: [2] (trigger warnings for gambling addictions / swear words) Just make games, and sell them. Make new content, we'll buy it if we think it's good. There's a reason [elicit drinks] and [elicit legal substances] are banned from billboards and TV ads in many countries.

Sell episodes, expansion packs; don't make a full game and sell half of it at full price then sell us the missing bits piece at a time.

<>

I hope to create a discussion on this topic, I think it's well worth discussing. I hope this is respectful enough and will spread awareness about these things. Consider this my civil protest against these practices not only in this game but in all games. Don't link gaming to gambling. Don't give addiction the chance! Make games about fun choices, not choices about whether you give into your craving by spending real world cash or not.

Thanks for reading.

References:

[1] https://www.nativex.com/designing-mobile-games-retention-and-monetization/

[2]

"It's a weird mentality of ... It's only here for a limited time, and if I don't get it now, I may never get it again and complete my collection."
Why is this OK for in-game content but not for cash shops? Because real world money gets involved, not just play time.

[Voltekka.2375]

Bud, maybe youre confused, but having mount skins isnt called QoL, opening bl chests for a skin doesnt bring you QoL, you can farm all the gold in the game and convert it to gems and purchase your skins at your own leisure without spending more that buying PoF and/or living story chapters (if you havent gotten em for free). Gw2 is one game where you simply dont p2w, like in mobile games. Your wall o'text doesnt apply here. If you cant stop gambling for a skin, a DIGITAL skin, maybe the problem lies with you.

[kharmin.7683]

Is this another gambling thread?

[Trise.2865]

I don't think you understand what "quality of life" means, so here's a few generic, true statements:

Microtransactions are predatory.Gambling is gambling; gambling is addicting; addiction is bad.The "AAA" gaming industry is a bloated sham, echoing the monopolies of ultra-rich economics prior.ArenaNet are not "AAA" developers, by any observable metric.Market data creates context for all transactions, including digital ones.Your life will not, and cannot improve simply by spending money.Everyone reading this post will ignore at least two of these statements, deliberately or not, and react according to their personal bias.Jim Sterling is a fine journalist, but not to be taken 100% seriously.Citation is not context; using pieces of someone else's arguments does not validate yours.Not all observations apply to all situations.

[Xynxycs.6718]

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Bud, maybe youre confused, but having mount skins isnt called QoL, opening bl chests for a skin doesnt bring you QoL, you can farm all the gold in the game and convert it to gems and purchase your skins at your own leisure without spending more that buying PoF and/or living story chapters (if you havent gotten em for free). Gw2 is one game where you simply dont p2w, like in mobile games. Your wall o'text doesnt apply here. If you cant stop gambling for a skin, a DIGITAL skin, maybe the problem lies with you.

Respectfully, I think we have different definitions of "winning". Perhaps for you, winning is beating other players. For me and many others, it's collecting. My goal is to get skins I like. By this definition, it is pay to win. Removing the option of pressing the "use credit card" button resolves this.

Forgive me if I was unclear. I wanted to point to a specific case of addiction manipulation (the so called whales) but I also wanted to highlight the other problem of selling an incomplete product then expecting the buyer to buy the second half, piece by piece, at an absorbent cost. Case in point: the "glorified notepads" of build templates. (Equipment slots are a different matter, as they deal with "physical items" not just the "memory" of a build arrangement). Anet put this out for free, sure, but they've also already laid the psychological groundwork for "yes, okay, I'll just "press F to pay by visa". I don't think this is okay. This isn't the first time, but it's taken until this point for me to voice my feelings.

I'd like to point out that gambling in videogames isn't legal. Gambling (like many other potentially socially destructive activities) is highly regulated in more or less every country. It's shocking that people are okay with it, being that BL chests use the same mechanics as a slot machine, the only difference being that you will be objectively poorer once the gambling high wears off because you can't sell your payouts.

@"Trise.2865" said:

The "AAA" gaming industry is a bloated sham, echoing the monopolies of ultra-rich economics prior.

I agree, however, while I also have problems with "AAA", they aren't the only culprit. In the video GW2 is mentioned by name as a problematic title to a recovering addict.

Sorry for another wall of text, folks. I like to go into detail.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Xynxycs.6718 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Bud, maybe youre confused, but having mount skins isnt called QoL, opening bl chests for a skin doesnt bring you QoL, you can farm all the gold in the game and convert it to gems and purchase your skins at your own leisure without spending more that buying PoF and/or living story chapters (if you havent gotten em for free). Gw2 is one game where you simply dont p2w, like in mobile games. Your wall o'text doesnt apply here. If you cant stop gambling for a skin, a DIGITAL skin, maybe the problem lies with you.

Respectfully, I think we have different definitions of "winning". Perhaps for you, winning is beating other players. For me and many others, it's collecting. My goal is to get skins I like. By this definition, it is pay to win. Removing the option of pressing the "use credit card" button resolves this.

Forgive me if I was unclear. I wanted to point to a specific case of addiction manipulation (the so called whales) but I also wanted to highlight the other problem of selling an incomplete product then expecting the buyer to buy the second half, piece by piece, at an absorbent cost. Case in point: the "glorified notepads" of build templates. (Equipment slots are a different matter, as they deal with "physical items" not just the "memory" of a build arrangement). Anet put this out for free, sure, but they've also already laid the psychological groundwork for "yes, okay, I'll just "press F to pay by visa". I don't think this is okay. This isn't the first time, but it's taken until this point for me to voice my feelings.

I'd like to point out that gambling in videogames isn't legal. Gambling (like many other potentially socially destructive activities) is highly regulated in more or less every country. It's shocking that people are okay with it, being that BL chests use the same mechanics as a slot machine, the only difference being that you will be objectively poorer once the gambling high wears off because you can't sell your payouts.

@"Trise.2865" said:

The "AAA" gaming industry is a bloated sham, echoing the monopolies of ultra-rich economics prior.

I agree, however, while I also have problems with "AAA", they aren't the only culprit. In the video GW2 is mentioned by name as a problematic title to a recovering addict.

Sorry for another wall of text, folks. I like to go into detail.

For what its worth..."In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers."Skins are no gameplay advantage. Twist the term all you want, gw2 certainly isnt "pay to win". Pay to look... Different? Sure. Win? No. There is no consensus about what winning is as far as appearance goes, what you consider winning (eg wear all auras you can buy) some may see it as extremely ugly. Whereas paying to have a gear/stat/dmg advantage is p2w.

Lastly, you can buy everything on gemstore and tp with ingame gold. You can buy as many bl Keys as you want with ingame gold. There is absolutely no need to spend one euro on skins. You choose to spend real money. Gambling in videogames is another matter, there are plenty of threads on this already.

[Shao.7236]

Seen too many people complain about those build templates, FYI it costs a full character slot to gain one Trait/Skill Template + Equipement Template. So if that makes you happy, you can just effectively earn more slots per simply investing into another character, grand.

So in the final terms, the players gained more than Anet has by introducing this update.

[MisterDapper.5984]

These supposedly "QoL" features are manufactured in that inconveniences are added to the game and then a paywall is added for "convenience." it's not so much p2w as it is pay to enjoy the game. Bag slots were designed to be limited per character instead of per account and what you're given is much less than needed. If you've ever farmed or done fractals, you'd quickly run out of space. Granted bag slots and other account upgrades have been a grey area for a long time and are up to debate. Build templates on the other hand are a dark shade of grey, nearly black. There's only so much you can monetize a QoL feature. Especially when it was free and rarely ever had any problems.

It goes without saying BL chests should be removed from the gem store given how predatory they are. They can have the same role as ecto gambling.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@Xynxycs.6718 said:Make new content, we'll buy it if we think it's good.

Sell episodes, expansion packs; don't make a full game and sell half of it at full price then sell us the missing bits piece at a time.

Thanks for reading.

Psst... you whined that HoT wes overpriced for 60 dollars , for its 5 maps .Now with half the price of PoF , you changed your mind again ?

[Dreams.3128]

I'm really lazy to post what this one person explained to me in Discord, so I'll sum it up.

TDLR; If companies don't have microtransctions they are making less money than the companies that do. If you have a game series that didn't do well, the sequel is going to be garbage. So, therefore, companies has to choose between gaining the public's favor but having less money to work with and therefore the parent company that owns the gaming company gets on their butts which could lead to unhealthy changes and possible shut down.

Or, the company doesn't gain the public favor, gets more money, and then produce other material that makes the said money because it is what 'works' and keeps the parent happy. Either way, MMOs owners literally cannot win no matter how you look at it. So either way they are pissing someone off because that is how their business is set up to be

Look at Wildstar? Look at City of Heroes? Amazing MMOs of their time but they were shut down, probably because, no matter if they were vastly popular amongst the public the people in charge of those games were probably not making any ideal money that the parent company wanted.

Gw2 is in the same boat rn. Which is also why MMOs overall are becoming unattractive because there really isn't a solution to absolutely get rid of microtransctions unless you use subscriptions. The public demands more, but then are unwillingly to give the funds to allow these companies to do more. So now, it's a tug-o-war. Sad reality, but that's just how it is no matter if you wanna keep screaming if it's unfair.

[starlinvf.1358]

@"MisterDapper.5984" said:These supposedly "QoL" features are manufactured in that inconveniences are added to the game and then a paywall is added for "convenience." it's not so much p2w as it is pay to enjoy the game. Bag slots were designed to be limited per character instead of per account and what you're given is much less than needed. If you've ever farmed or done fractals, you'd quickly run out of space. Granted bag slots and other account upgrades have been a grey area for a long time and are up to debate. Build templates on the other hand are a dark shade of grey, nearly black. There's only so much you can monetize a QoL feature. Especially when it was free and rarely ever had any problems.

It goes without saying BL chests should be removed from the gem store given how predatory they are. They can have the same role as ecto gambling.

Except what the templates are for, and the function they fill, were NOT intentionally manufactured into the game's design..... out of everything we complain about it, this argument around build templates is by far the most idiotic- because it founded on the idea of this being the fruition of a 7 year plan of marked inconvenience, of which Anet turned down multiple opportunities to sell a solution to, across 5 major low points in the company's financial history, culminating in this glorious moment where the cash grab attempt can finally pay off.

Or, just maybe...... this is yet another instance in a long history of this player base, where we finally realized a concept existed (where in all the years leading up to it, we didn't), and now feel entitled to it, resulting in scrapping together every possible reasoning we can find to justify our entitlement. Sometimes it is justified, usually its not.....

As much as I don't like how they structured the way they are charging for it...... I am under no illusion that this was part of some long running conspiracy to ruin the game unless we paid for something. When by all accounts the most effort they put in to limit the system's potential is to make the default match the number of build states being stored prior to the change (ie 3 to match the 3 game modes, and 2 equipment because PvP doesn't use equipment), but now with the ability to re-purpose all of them.

Then theres the context of the state to the industry 7 years ago, where GW2's Buy once for access, and pay for extra non-power convenience was considered business model suicide, yet was the most consumer friendly option known at the time for being completely Ala Cart, not overly restrictive by design, and the desire for upgrades scaled directly with how much time the player sinks into each session, and the level of loot genration they accomplish. IE: you only really needed things like bag upgrades once you hit the status of hardcore farmer, carrying multiple gear sets (in a time zerks was the only meta), and/or refused to make merchant breaks to process your loot.

All of these "Problems" with limitations of the system only became prominent AFTER the following happened over the game's life time.....

• Increased rate of incoming loot across the board
• the addition of new game modes that justified different build types
• Especs and Balance changes that increased the combat potential of all classes by orders of magnitude
• new festivals that generate substantial to insane amounts of coin/drops/value through their activity rewards
• a huge push to bring justification to more diverse Stat Combos in meta
• a major jump in average gold income of players through dailies
• the increased popularity of farming
• an increased interest in crafting and collections (brought on skin rewards of all things)

The game was NOT designed around massive inconvenience.... and would only really qualify as Minor under the game's launch conditions, because the game was already abnormally generous when it comes to "salvage trash" that you needed to process. Something by the way, didn't require you to go to your bank to do, since you could deposit all crafting materials into the bank directly from the Inventory menu; and only needed access to a steady supply of salvage kits (which was the main reason you would visit a merchant). The early game was the most notably restrictive, NOT because of the number bags you could have, but the size the bags themselves and the level of affordability in gold. You couldn't buy bigger bags with gems, and the bag slots unlocked with gems made no economic sense with anything smaller then 15 slot bags. Once you got up to 60 slots in total, the full inventory "problem" only becomes noticeable once ever couple hours.... and only really start to happen in areas which lack frequent rest stops and are mob heavy (like Orr).

Its a massive chain of cause and effect we're looking at here. The reason the above happens, is because it broke the cycle of Farming habits established in more conventional MMOs (see WoW and Korean F2Ps). We actually became less aware of loot drops (and static farming) as the game conditioned us to be more focused on Event Participation. The "drops scale with player level" also biased drops toward items and materials that were most profitable to us in the long run. Even with the devaluing of silk in crafting didn't seem out of place, since Gossamer was used in a higher tier of gear, and silk was "common, but still vendor trash" to the more rare Gossamer that people actually used. The Drop rate itself was also not that high, but much higher then other MMORPGs. Magic find was not common, so rare items were actually rare. But with Magic find being low also affecting the grade of drops in terms of vendor value, also kept the value of Coin pretty high. (The reason I mention that is because it took months before the player based finally understood how the reward system was laid out, and how to use the TP properly. Even today, a surprising amount of people don't use the TP at all, and most folks don't know how to take advantage of seasonal price trends)

And to end cap this whole thing..... its start to bug me how much people are unwilling to pay for anything, even if its just paying attention, unless you directly target their impulsive tendencies. At times it feels like we've lost the ability to judge value, unless those values are judged for us. You can see it permeating into how Consumers (including gamers) react to things based on how it was advertised, and how effective it was drawing attention to specific things.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm really lazy to post what this one person explained to me in Discord, so I'll sum it up.

TDLR; If companies don't have microtransctions they are making less money than the companies that do. If you have a game series that didn't do well, the sequel is going to be garbage. So, therefore, companies has to choose between gaining the public's favor but having less money to work with and therefore the parent company that owns the gaming company gets on their butts which could lead to unhealthy changes and possible shut down.

Or, the company doesn't gain the public favor, gets more money, and then produce other material that makes the said money because it is what 'works' and keeps the parent happy. Either way, MMOs owners literally cannot win no matter how you look at it. So either way they are pissing someone off because that is how their business is set up to be

Look at Wildstar? Look at City of Heroes? Amazing MMOs of their time but they were shut down, probably because, no matter if they were vastly popular amongst the public the people in charge of those games were probably not making any ideal money that the parent company wanted.

Gw2 is in the same boat rn. Which is also why MMOs overall are becoming unattractive because there really isn't a solution to absolutely get rid of microtransctions unless you use subscriptions. The public demands more, but then are unwillingly to give the funds to allow these companies to do more. So now, it's a tug-o-war. Sad reality, but that's just how it is no matter if you wanna keep screaming if it's unfair.

Well I keep saying. Anet could always do a go fund me for WvW upgrades. We would likely fund the project if they just said "Hey everybody we need some help funding improvement for WvW, please s help"....

Drop the ego and just ask for help.

[Vancho.8750]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Bud, maybe youre confused, but having mount skins isnt called QoL, opening bl chests for a skin doesnt bring you QoL, you can farm all the gold in the game and convert it to gems and purchase your skins at your own leisure without spending more that buying PoF and/or living story chapters (if you havent gotten em for free). Gw2 is one game where you simply dont p2w, like in mobile games. Your wall o'text doesnt apply here. If you cant stop gambling for a skin, a DIGITAL skin, maybe the problem lies with you.Actually there is a bug with mounting after loading or waypointing, that makes the character move but the camera doesn't and somehow when using a skin you see the base mount one but the camera is moving with you till everything loads.

[Ashen.2907]

Financing the game by selling QoL features and cosmetics was advertised before launch. Its part of why I am here rather than elsewhere.

I think I will go to a burger joint and complain that they sell burgers.

...or, better yet, to a burger joint where the burger is free but condiments are sold separately...and complain that charging for condiments for the free burger is disrupting the goodwill of their customers.

[Trise.2865]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm really lazy to post what this one person explained to me in Discord, so I'll sum it up.

TDLR; If companies don't have microtransctions they are making less money than the companies that do. If you have a game series that didn't do well, the sequel is going to be garbage. So, therefore, companies has to choose between gaining the public's favor but having less money to work with and therefore the parent company that owns the gaming company gets on their butts which could lead to unhealthy changes and possible shut down.

Or, the company doesn't gain the public favor, gets more money, and then produce other material that makes the said money because it is what 'works' and keeps the parent happy. Either way, MMOs owners literally cannot win no matter how you look at it. So either way they are pissing someone off because that is how their business is set up to be

Look at Wildstar? Look at City of Heroes? Amazing MMOs of their time but they were shut down, probably because, no matter if they were vastly popular amongst the public the people in charge of those games were probably not making any ideal money that the parent company wanted.

Gw2 is in the same boat rn. Which is also why MMOs overall are becoming unattractive because there really isn't a solution to absolutely get rid of microtransctions unless you use subscriptions. The public demands more, but then are unwillingly to give the funds to allow these companies to do more. So now, it's a tug-o-war. Sad reality, but that's just how it is no matter if you wanna keep screaming if it's unfair.

Well I keep saying. Anet could always do a go fund me for WvW upgrades. We would likely fund the project if they just said "Hey everybody we need some help funding improvement for WvW, please s help"....

Drop the ego and just ask for help

I think you have watched too many teen movies where all of life's problems can be magically solved forever by accidentally winning a competition or holding a bake sale.

Businesses survive by making and/or selling products. ANet is a business that makes and sells products. Ego has nothing to do with it.

[Acheron.4731]

@Trise.2865 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm really lazy to post what this one person explained to me in Discord, so I'll sum it up.

TDLR; If companies don't have microtransctions they are making less money than the companies that do. If you have a game series that didn't do well, the sequel is going to be garbage. So, therefore, companies has to choose between gaining the public's favor but having less money to work with and therefore the parent company that owns the gaming company gets on their butts which could lead to unhealthy changes and possible shut down.

Or, the company doesn't gain the public favor, gets more money, and then produce other material that makes the said money because it is what 'works' and keeps the parent happy. Either way, MMOs owners literally cannot win no matter how you look at it. So either way they are pissing someone off because that is how their business is set up to be

Look at Wildstar? Look at City of Heroes? Amazing MMOs of their time but they were shut down, probably because, no matter if they were vastly popular amongst the public the people in charge of those games were probably not making any ideal money that the parent company wanted.

Gw2 is in the same boat rn. Which is also why MMOs overall are becoming unattractive because there really isn't a solution to absolutely get rid of microtransctions unless you use subscriptions. The public demands more, but then are unwillingly to give the funds to allow these companies to do more. So now, it's a tug-o-war. Sad reality, but that's just how it is no matter if you wanna keep screaming if it's unfair.

Well I keep saying. Anet could always do a go fund me for WvW upgrades. We would likely fund the project if they just said "Hey everybody we need some help funding improvement for WvW, please s help"....

Drop the ego and just ask for help

I think you have watched too many teen movies where all of life's problems can be magically solved forever by accidentally winning a competition or holding a bake sale.

Businesses survive by making and/or selling products. ANet is a business that makes and sells products. Ego has nothing to do with it.

I agree with both sides but it is hard to ignore that the quality of what they are producing/selling is dropping.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm really lazy to post what this one person explained to me in Discord, so I'll sum it up.

TDLR; If companies don't have microtransctions they are making less money than the companies that do. If you have a game series that didn't do well, the sequel is going to be garbage. So, therefore, companies has to choose between gaining the public's favor but having less money to work with and therefore the parent company that owns the gaming company gets on their butts which could lead to unhealthy changes and possible shut down.

Or, the company doesn't gain the public favor, gets more money, and then produce other material that makes the said money because it is what 'works' and keeps the parent happy. Either way, MMOs owners literally cannot win no matter how you look at it. So either way they are pissing someone off because that is how their business is set up to be

Look at Wildstar? Look at City of Heroes? Amazing MMOs of their time but they were shut down, probably because, no matter if they were vastly popular amongst the public the people in charge of those games were probably not making any ideal money that the parent company wanted.

Gw2 is in the same boat rn. Which is also why MMOs overall are becoming unattractive because there really isn't a solution to absolutely get rid of microtransctions unless you use subscriptions. The public demands more, but then are unwillingly to give the funds to allow these companies to do more. So now, it's a tug-o-war. Sad reality, but that's just how it is no matter if you wanna keep screaming if it's unfair.

Well I keep saying. Anet could always do a go fund me for WvW upgrades. We would likely fund the project if they just said "Hey everybody we need some help funding improvement for WvW, please s help"....

Drop the ego and just ask for help.

Except that doesn't fly in a situation where you have a commercially released product, is supposedly profitable to some degree, and are now expecting the players (who are already disappointed, and already spending significant money by now) to foot a major investment risk, without the accountability and contractual enforcement options (because crowdfunding makes that more difficult), on a Dev team whose already questionable productivity is what brought us into this situation in the first place, AND hoping that enough people actually pay into the crowdfunding campaign, when there is basically zero trust, zero recourse for unsatisfactory results, and they already have the collateral available to take out a business loan.

There is not nearly enough good will and established track record for this look good. PGI games tried to crowdfund a new space game called Transverse in 2014. The only game they had backing them up was MechWarrior Online (launched a year prior, and crowdfunded successfully), which constantly teetered on the edge of spiraling into a Trash fire, between its Monetization model, barebones gameplay situated on a Online Service Platform, a laundry list of MechWarrior staple features that was sold on, but were not even close to deployment, their attitude toward the public, and had only survived on a combination of serviceable combat and a total lack of alternatives in the Franchise. And its on that note they decided to try their hand at crowdfunding a second game in the wake of the Space craze created by Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, Limit Theory, Star point Gemini, and No Man's Sky (having been announced earlier in the year)......

It was, to put it bluntly, an absolute disaster. They mimicked the crowdfunding model Star Citizen was using, but botched the approach so hard that the entire internet rallied against them. They barely raised 5 figures in crowdfunding in short time it was up, and even that amount was highly suspect. .... And this was at the absolute height of the Crowdfunding Bubble. The big red flag here is the Status of the Company itself. Most of the game's it was competing against (and to a lesser extent, crowdfunding as a whole) were either start ups, small studios between publisher projects, or projects rejected by publishers in the past. In no case that I was aware of at the time, were any of those studios having the backing of an successful MMO that could generate ongoing funding for them. If MWO was profitable, there is NO reason they couldn't get a loan or publisher backing (which would be needed, because Transverse is an MMO). And if MWO wasn't profitable (presumably due to the game being bad), what reason would anyone have trust them to deliver a good game with a self sustaining business model.

This situation also shares a lot of Hall Marks of Comcept and Inafune's fiasco with trying to Crowdfund "Red Ash" (an MMO/Anime franchise) while they were mid-development of Mighty No.9. This kicked off a series of debacles, as concerns were raised about splitting studio attention when they weren't even in the home stretch of a high profile KS project, the ambitious nature Red Ash (cross media franchises were notoriously prone to production problems), and rising tensions over the Development of Mighty No.9 where Comcept had since ran 2 more CF campaigns for extended content like English Voice acting and DLC, but still had an air of uncertainty of how far along the game actually was.

Trying to GoFundme WvW would end up being an even bigger disaster for the following reasons....

• This is an established Studio, backed by one the biggest publishers in the Industry
• This an existing game, and an existing game feature thats failed to deliver on multiple occasions
• Trying to crowdfund this is so bad form, and so against the spirit of Crowdfunding, it would only serve to amplify the current mistrust of crowdfunding by the public, and further build mistrust with Anet over accusations of Mismanagement, wasted resources, and money grubbing.
• ..... because, again, this isn't some start up or studio living off residuals.... They have access to money, and a means to carry the risk. Crowdfunding is best reserved for situations where there are no other means to carry the risk, typically in light of a niche market share or low returns.
• Anet doesn't currently have the good will, nor track record to soften concerns that the project itself (if fully funded) would fall on its face by the end..... if it even reaches the end.
• WvW itself is NOT a "one-and-done" project either. Its going to have to continuously adapt, grow, and learn..... turning the GoFundMe into an ongoing money sink (think Patreon, except its multi million dollar company). Why can't that money be generated by the conceivably high ROI of cosmetics and goodies from the Gem Store? The very thing meant to support the game as a whole!

There is no way they could spin this without coming off as Incompetent, Arrogant, or Desperate..... none of which their image can afford right now.

[Xynxycs.6718]

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Xynxycs.6718 said:Make new content, we'll buy it if we think it's good.

Sell episodes, expansion packs; don't make a full game and sell half of it at full price then sell us the missing bits piece at a time.

Thanks for reading.

Psst... you whined that HoT wes overpriced for 60 dollars , for its 5 maps .Now with half the price of PoF , you changed your mind again ?

Excuse me, when exactly did I say that?Oh.I D I D N ' T

[Quantum Dragon.6078]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm really lazy to post what this one person explained to me in Discord, so I'll sum it up.

TDLR; If companies don't have microtransctions they are making less money than the companies that do. If you have a game series that didn't do well, the sequel is going to be garbage. So, therefore, companies has to choose between gaining the public's favor but having less money to work with and therefore the parent company that owns the gaming company gets on their butts which could lead to unhealthy changes and possible shut down.

Or, the company doesn't gain the public favor, gets more money, and then produce other material that makes the said money because it is what 'works' and keeps the parent happy. Either way, MMOs owners literally cannot win no matter how you look at it. So either way they are pissing someone off because that is how their business is set up to be

Look at Wildstar? Look at City of Heroes? Amazing MMOs of their time but they were shut down, probably because, no matter if they were vastly popular amongst the public the people in charge of those games were probably not making any ideal money that the parent company wanted.

Gw2 is in the same boat rn. Which is also why MMOs overall are becoming unattractive because there really isn't a solution to absolutely get rid of microtransctions unless you use subscriptions. The public demands more, but then are unwillingly to give the funds to allow these companies to do more. So now, it's a tug-o-war. Sad reality, but that's just how it is no matter if you wanna keep screaming if it's unfair.

Well I keep saying. Anet could always do a go fund me for WvW upgrades. We would likely fund the project if they just said "Hey everybody we need some help funding improvement for WvW, please s help"....

Drop the ego and just ask for help.

I agree on funding campaigns and have been saying the same thing for awhile. And campaigns can show how much interest there is in something. I don’t WvW much but I have friends that do that would fund things. There are about 100 people in my guild - some day one players all the way down to within the last 2 months - that would pay extraordinary amounts to get LWs1 reworked and added back to the game. I would gladly throw $200 at a campaign for that if I got it free / reduced in game when it released.

Another guild mate - a well paid Linux administrator - has started numerous times if they ever had a campaign for an engine overhaul for performance/ optimization/ a native Linux client, he’s got $5,000 waiting for them.

[Obtena.7952]

I like how the OP redefines a bunch of standard terms based on how he plays the game to suit his arguments. It's clever ... but it's still wrong.

Still, even if what he says is correct ... I don't see some solution in there ... unless he want's to kill the game with implementing a monthly sub. Always the problem with these threads ... prophetic ("the end of the world is coming"), but a little thin on much thinking beyond that.

Mircotransations are manufactured QoL? OK ... What's the big deal? There is a business model here .. that's part of it. maybe it's not the best, but it's what this game has ... so you can choose to play it ... or not. I don't get this 'civil protest' .... you're not a citizen, you are a customer that patronizes a service provider. Don't 're-invent' your role and relationship to complain about something you don't like to give it more credence.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"Obtena.7952" said:

Still, even if what he says is correct ... I don't see some solution in there ... unless he want's to kill the game with implementing a monthly sub. Always the problem with these threads ... prophetic ("the end of the world is coming"), but a little thin on much thinking beyond that.

Maybe because no solution can be offered when looking at the issue through the narrow scope of a single game. These problems are industry-wide and that's where change needs to happen. I would argue OP at least attempts to look at it through a broader scope.

Mircotransations are manufactured QoL? OK ... What's the big deal? There is a business model here .. that's part of it. maybe it's not the best, but it's what this game has ... so you can choose to play it ... or not. I don't get this 'civil protest' .... you're not a citizen, you are a customer that patronizes a service provider. Don't 're-invent' your role and relationship to complain about something you don't like to give it more credence.

It's not big deal for you, but maybe it is for me and others. I don't have to agree with something just because it's a business model. And I sure don't need to re-invent the consumer-provider relationship to voice my complaint about it. I can choose to both stop supporting financially said service and voice my complaints about it just fine. Especially since it's a proven fact that when those complaints pile up, change is more likely to happen. Social media in the age of Information are pretty useful like that.

One could just pick another service to support if the industry in its current form offered a variety of choices and business models. Sadly that's not a reality as more and more studios are making games employing those practices. So as gamer/consumer I have two choices ; either I find a new hobby or I choose to support the few who haven't been "corrupted" yet and join the many voices who complain about the rest in hope of a change. I pick the latter as the effort to do so is minimal. Just a few taps on my phone.

[Obtena.7952]

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:

Still, even if what he says is correct ... I don't see some solution in there ... unless he want's to kill the game with implementing a monthly sub. Always the problem with these threads ... prophetic ("the end of the world is coming"), but a little thin on much thinking beyond that.

Maybe because no solution can be offered when looking at the issue through the narrow scope of a single game. These problems are industry-wide and that's where change needs to happen. I would argue OP at least attempts to look at it through a broader scope.

Mircotransations are manufactured QoL? OK ... What's the big deal? There is a business model here .. that's part of it. maybe it's not the best, but it's what this game has ... so you can choose to play it ... or not. I don't get this 'civil protest' .... you're not a citizen, you are a customer that patronizes a service provider. Don't 're-invent' your role and relationship to complain about something you don't like to give it more credence.

It's not big deal for you, but maybe it is for me and others. I don't have to agree with something just because it's a business model. And I sure don't need to re-invent the consumer-provider relationship to voice my complaint about it. I can choose to both stop supporting financially said service

and

voice my complaints about it just fine. Especially since it's a proven fact that when those complaints pile up, change is more likely to happen. Social media in the age of Information are pretty useful like that.

One could just pick another service to support if the industry in its current form offered a variety of choices and business models. Sadly that's not a reality as more and more studios are making games employing those practices. So as gamer/consumer I have two choices ; either I find a new hobby

or

I choose to support the few who haven't been "corrupted" yet and join the many voices who complain about the rest in hope of a change. I pick the latter as the effort to do so is minimal. Just a few taps on my phone.

What I said still holds true, even if it's industry wide. If more people think like you, the industry will adapt to better serve it's market. The interesting part is that GW2 is a great example of that ... Anet did things different in GW2 because it recognized an underserved portion of the market ... and it's successful because of that.

My real problem with the kind of thinking you are supporting is that microtransactions in GW2 are not even needed to enjoy the game ... so WTH is the problem here? Don't like micro transactions? OK ... don't buy anything then. If EVERYONE thought that way, Anet wouldn't have any choice BUT to change and likely implement a monthly sub (because what other options are there for them?)

Anet has even been gracious enough to allow players to purchase GS items with ingame gold ... I don't see many MMOs doing THAT. Of all the business models in the MMO field ... how can ANYONE complain about the different choices Anet has given players to get GS items ... or not get them? It's a real shame that even though people complain they don't like the model, they aren't willing to acknowledge how reasonable Anet has made it for players with these options.

TLDR: the complaint is pretty baseless and I don't think the OP has the slightest grasp on the the ROI between issuing content vs. micro transactions.

[Vayne.8563]

I've played this game without templates for 7 year.s. I didn't use a third party program to get templates. I didn't have them. If they're being added to the game just now, and the game is 7 years old, they're an option, not a requirement, almost by definition because the game itself hasn't changed.

Saying they've created a need and now you have to pay to fill it is false, at least in my case. I don't have a need for this. People have been playing without this for years and years and years.

It's true that there was a third party product that offered a build template. But the game didn't and I guarantee you most players never touched ARCDPS. Some obviously did.

So we have this hard core, must have multiple sets of armor, min/max attitude that this is some sort of requirement to play the game. It's not. That's in the heads of specific people who play a specific way.

I don't think this would affect 80% of the playerbase., just as an absolute guess. For some of us, just what they've given us is actually something useful.

Someone said build templates are a tax on hard core players. That may be the case. I just don't think this kind of generalization is going to mean anything to most people.

As for skins being or not being pay to win, if you have to pay for a skin to have it, you're not actually winning anything. It's not like there are points you get for looking a certain way. That's in your head. I don't even think most of the best skins are in the cash shop. I don't like a lot of those skins. My win is when I find a great look for a character without spending money.

Not to say I've never spent money on fashion, but I never considered it winning to do so and I don't understand why people think it is. It's just having more options to play dress up with your characters.

[Yasi.9065]

The whole GW2 is p2w because best outfits are in the gemshop is a community joke. Because GW2 doesnt have horizontal gear progression, you could say that fashion is the real endcontent in GW2, and to win that endcontent you have to pay, ergo GW2 is p2w. Ofc thats meant tongue in cheek ;]

And tbh, the reality is actually a bit more sinister. All those free skins you get are the bait to get you hooked on "Fashion Wars", so you then are willing to pay for the really shiny stuff in the gemstore. Thats one of the basic microtransaction principles at work. Same as the pseudo currency etc.

All microtransactions are equally bad. Because they are designed to incentivise you to spend lots of money. And because people with spending problems are always at a high risk of loosing their whole livelihood. I knew all of this 7 years ago, still, I gave Anet a chance, because in GW1 they handled it okay.Now, after 7 years, my opinion is unchanged. Microtransactions are bad, not just for the gamers, but also for the game. Instead of creating a good game, the main goal becomes creating microtransaction items and microtransaction opportunities.

And thats exactly what happened to "build templates". To create the maximum possible microtransactions, Anet made the core feature build templates (build storage) accountwide and not character- or classbound - so you need to buy more slots for convenience. Build loadouts are a pure convenience product without much functionality beyond that, made more convenient because of accountwide build storage - incentivising you to buy more build loadout slots.Instead of gear templates we got gear loadouts, because charging for characterbound gear template slots would have been an even worse decision, so Anet added gear loadouts instead - which are a form of storage and more "acceptable" characterbound.See how that rather simple, but good feature of arc-buildtemplates got replaced by something developed with microtransaction monetization as main goal? And how that resulted in a worse product? Thats exactly what I mean when saying that microtransactions are bad for the game.

[titje.2745]

you are right. i also feel i am forced to spend real money on the game just for skins. making gold isn’t enough with this broken economy. players who played from release till now are rich and don’t have to spend any single euro on the game. but for new players it’s very bad. i mostly try to make gold and don’t do content that much. it’s working so kitten hard to even buy something nice. even gold to gems is ruined. anet says that they can’t do anything about it. bad excuse. it’s simple change, but it’s in their profit or how can i say so they won’t change anything. sales are too short to even able to buy something. so forced to spend real cash. and with flipping on the tp. looks like ppl don’t give a kitten about gold because they undercut so much that my plan is broken. it worked in world of warcraft buy all cheap and then undercut highest with 1 gold. but then ppl list the new items cheap again so all gold wasted. i also said many times that they must sell skins for a price like 500 gems and don’t put it in a rng box. but they won’t accept 6 euro for a skin because the greed is real. they know ppl are addicted to gamble and let them pay nearly 100 euro to get a chance for the skin that they sometimes don’t get after 80 keys (example) and other ppl that are addicted to the game just accept everything. posting on the forum is useless because every addicted player is in love with anet and they is normal in their eyes. i don’t think so. and the worst is items are there for a short time and you see many ppl show off or ping items they got in few keys so you think i want it and try luck and 144 gold on 5 keys gone. wasted hard earned gold. and then they hope you spend real cash. o and the items that are short time in the black lion chests, you get 1 stattue so if you are unlucky you have to do 60 weekly keys runs (as you can see it’s longer then one year) but then the item is gone from stattue vendor. so forced to spend real cash before it’s gone. OR MAP completion. for me is 1 key in 8 maps is 480 maps to get 1 skin for statues. and yes you can do both but no time for math right now. so with this hard work you think faster to spend real cash. it’s very bad. i quit WoW in 2015 because bad rng and never mount skins and started guildwars 2 in 2016 and had fun till i experienced that they only want my money. making gold is hard this days. it’s not just gaming it’s working for gold and then time is gone. i go buy a skyscale skin and then i have to take a break. good that i got call of duty modern warfare right now. there you get skins just for work done like an achievement.

this is my opinion and i kept it friendly. there is no need to be rude. but everyone experienced the game in a different way.