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Upcoming Changes to Fall Damage and Revival


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@"Traveller.7496" said:The "meta" won't adjust any to the fall damage changes to WvW. I have no idea what that even means. The builds that use these traits are not "meta", they are very niche, but people still use them. The whole comment reeks of a non-answer to me, kinda like "no one here even thought anyone would use those, we're changing it and that's final" but they just won't want to say it outright.

Yes I use fall damage traits a lot on Thief and less so on warrior. Thief has a lower health pool and relies on dodges a lot and very often fights on walls, edges of cliffs and the like where you can dodge off the wall by mistake. It also a bait used against those not specced for it who might pursue down a cliff thinking they can finish you. There are all manner of places this useful in WvW.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.

The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.

Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.

"Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.

The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.

Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.

"Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.

Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.

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Fall damage reduction is pretty much mandatory for me here in Australia (and I suppose other high ping/lag areas) when doing JPs.The problem is that you are rarely where you seem to be and many times I press jump only to watch my char run over the edge. Most times you just have to guess and without FDR it would make JPs incredibly difficult and tedious.Yes their optional, but not really when collections are tied to them.

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While fall damage reduction traits were useful when the game first launched we feel that they are currently over-complicating trait descriptions in a post-glider/mount world. Falling damage reduction is already pretty niche and in the past we have added additional functionality to make them more generally useful. However for most of these traits, that bonus functionality eventually became the main reason to take the trait. At this point we felt it just makes more sense to remove the fall damage portion, which leaves some design space if we want to buff these traits in the future.

Sorry, this is not a reason to remove something. "It took too much space in the description..". Seriously, you had a meeting and actually voiced that as a valid reason for removal? If I was sitting there I would not have taken you seriously. It ate nothing, hurt nothing, cost nothing and you said remove it. I'm at a real loss for seeing any logic here. If there was an exploit, something. But for 7 years in one form or another it was fine. Sorry not buying the reason. It seems made up and self serving. Many in game think the game is headed for EOL. If this is the sign of things to come, maybe it is time to sunset it. Let it go out with some dignity.

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I simply don t get it. All you do here is killing the game completely ! all the nice flavours, all the nice skills , all the nice mechanics … every time someone has fun and great time with a character you just kill it, last one was scourge ! :(( … I keep asking myself what dark crawler you protect and worship inside the company who supports this slow inevitable death of the game? Personally on my list of best I can do: it was reviving my ally in pvp quicker then the enemy reviving his mate … it is damn fun! it is sometimes a game turn … I don t find such in any other game … really guys stop killing our fun :((((

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@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

@Robert Gee.9246 said:Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:
Fall damage reduction is important in WvW.
We hear you that fall damage reduction and gauging whether a fall will kill you is something that is considered regularly as a part of WvW. However we would like to see how the WvW meta adjusts before making additional changes.

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

While I am really glad to see evidence that you are indeed following the feedback, I think you may have missed the significance of some of what has been said.

JPs:Removing fall damage not only impacts those who regularly run JPs & portal trains as mentioned earlier by @Treize.3578, but also impacts those who are unskilled at jumping puzzles, for whom this trait may mean the difference between restarting part way through, and having to jump back to the nearest unlocked waypoint and run back to the beginning and start all over again. While the first is frustrating, I can guarantee that the second is going to end up being the difference between retrying and giving up for some of those trying to learn.

^^^^ This. Having to WP and then get to the JP, only to fall and die, is extremely punishing. The increase in fall damage is only going to make this worse, because it likely will increase the rate of this happening (across the player base).

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@jamesg.7128 said:Fall damage reduction is pretty much mandatory for me here in Australia (and I suppose other high ping/lag areas) when doing JPs.The problem is that you are rarely where you seem to be and many times I press jump only to watch my char run over the edge. Most times you just have to guess and without FDR it would make JPs incredibly difficult and tedious.Yes their optional, but not really when collections are tied to them.

And with the higher ping, not pressing long enough to register a jump at the server end and going splat because the server registered your character was running rather than jumping. Mechanics are finicky things with 250 ping, please don't make any changes that over-penalise players outside of North America.

(And gah, holding the spacebar down for too long and having the damn glider deploy, because 250 ping, and missing the next jumping point. Mostly that's not as bad as dying and coming back from the WP.)

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hello. Would you consider adding it to the Not So Secret jumping puzzle as well? This is already one of the least forgiving JP in the game, and while it's not necessarily a game changer for the people climbing, it's very valuable to the people making portals for those who struggle to reach the chest, or worse, the diving goggles. In other words, keeping fall damage reduction in this JP would mostly help those who help others.

I understand you can probably use that last sentence to make a case for any jumping puzzle, but other hard jumping puzzles usually have some mechanic to alleviate the difficulty, like NPCs that will rez you when you fall, checkpoints, or an easy way to restart. The Not So Secret JP has none, and this is the only reason why I think you should make an exception for it.There's also the Dark Reverie - dying there, if there's noone around to ress you, for most players means giving up on the JP on that day. And yes, to the lesser degree this can be found in many other JPs as well.

I didn't talk about Dark reverie because I remember this one having only one hard jump, and that jump is so high that having fall damage reduction doesn't prevent death. It's been a while since I've done this JP the legit way though, I could be wrong.

And although I don't think this is the kind of things Anet should encourage, the fact that you can reach the chests of this JP (and the one of Morgan's Leap) with mount tricks kinda makes a case for the "mount have made FDR obsolete" argument in Robert Gee's post (for this JP and this JP alone).

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.

The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.

Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.

"Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.

Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.

The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.

The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.

Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.

"Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.

Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.

The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.

i mean if this trait really procs on cripple, chill, etc it would be a nice healthy boost for core necromancer but how limited will they make the trait due to the elite specs which might make it not so much a healthy boost lol

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@Anchoku.8142 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.

The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.

Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.

"Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.

Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.

The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.

i mean if this trait really procs on cripple, chill, etc it would be a nice healthy boost for core necromancer but how limited will they make the trait due to the elite specs which might make it not so much a healthy boost lol

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To all at Anet, your core players are walking away. Raiding guilds have imploded. Unless ending the game is your motivation, you are pulling threads that should not be pulled. This too will end in tears. If it does, please, let Tyria rest, she has suffered enough. What you're doing is proving humans will destroy Tyria, maybe Mordremoth was right.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.

The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.

Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.

"Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.

Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.

The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.

At the same time wording within traits and skills exist to differentiate between control effects and disabling foes, for instance Attacker's Insight on Spellbreaker.

So we return to the question of which control effects count for this redone trait, all control effects, disabling control effects, or non-disabling control effects?

@ZDragon.3046 said:i mean if this trait really procs on cripple, chill, etc it would be a nice healthy boost for core necromancer but how limited will they make the trait due to the elite specs which might make it not so much a healthy boost lol

Well if they do to it what they did to Dhuumfire, where Scourge has an ICD (5s WvW/PvP 1s PvE) but other specs do not then it would indeed be a healthy boost to Core Necro, and a healthy boost to Condi Reaper.

I think this would be a VERY nice trait if this were the case.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.

The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.

Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.

"Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.

Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.

The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.

At the same time wording within traits and skills exist to differentiate between control effects and disabling foes, for instance Attacker's Insight on Spellbreaker.

So we return to the question of which control effects count for this redone trait, all control effects, disabling control effects, or non-disabling control effects?

@ZDragon.3046 said:i mean if this trait really procs on cripple, chill, etc it would be a nice healthy boost for core necromancer but how limited will they make the trait due to the elite specs which might make it not so much a healthy boost lol

Well if they do to it what they did to Dhuumfire, where Scourge has an ICD (5s WvW/PvP 1s PvE) but other specs do not then it would indeed be a healthy boost to Core Necro, and a healthy boost to Condi Reaper.

I think this would be a VERY nice trait if this were the case.

Granted i dislike the idea of reaper heading back in the condition direction after all this work to try and force it into a power role but i mean i guess it could be.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

Stalwart Courage (Courageous Return) is definitely too strong.Talked this one over with Cal and we're going to split the protection duration in PvP/WvW to 1 second. We considered an ICD for this trait, but think it's more interesting without it so we will only add one if this split proves insufficient to balance it.

1 sec is useless. And valor is only used in PvP, so what would be the point of a split for something not used at all in PvE.

This needs.. redesign.

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@Robert Gee.924 Many in game are not looking for a reason to leave. They are searching for reasons to stay. Please, STOP. Are we passionate about the game? Hell yes. Otherwise you could nerf it to oblivion and we wouldn't care. Why is the disconnect getting bigger not smaller? Don't follow the playbook of another game studio that shall not be named. Just STOP.

Dear Dwayna, I have played Guild wars since GW1's launch... What a long strange trip it's been.

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@misterman.1530 said:I like that fear idea. How about an unblockable one that can't be cleansed - so it has to run its course? Say 5 seconds or something.

Please don't suggest better tradeoffs for the necros self ailments by saying you'd consider an unblockable, unremovable 5 second fear to be fair for the competitive modes.That's insane.Necros need better bang for the self ailments, yes. Especially the ones that come with traited consume conditions. But 5 seconds of fear that you cant block or remove isn't reasonable.

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Just a comment as a Guardian main(pvp mostly). The suggestions are essentially 2 nerfs, 1 adjustment and 1 buff.

That Valor buff isn't even close to enough to consider for self-sustain, especially since Valor is SUPPOSED the Guardian Self-sustain line. Honor is not only better at self-sustain but it even does so as for its teammates! This is crazy if you really think about it. I do appreciate the changes to move away such useless(on revive/kill) traits for everyone but this is messed up.

Protectors Impact: Removed fall damage functionality from this trait. Renamed to "Protector's Restoration".Even though the prot on heal stays, It's still a nerf. How about looking at Ranger's on-heal trait? I'd take that one over Guardian's every day of the week.

Signet of Mercy: Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Changed passive effect from granting 180 healing power (216 when traited) to granting 120 concentration (150 when traited). This is one of those I consider to be an adjustment, rather than a straight-up nerf. Concentration is useful even though some may argue Healing-Power is slightly better.

Protective Reviver: This trait no longer increases revival speed and no longer grants boons on a successful revival. Fixed skill fact to show correct 3 second duration. Fixed a bug which prevented the recharge of Lesser Shield of Absorption from being affected by Stalwart Defender. Lesser Shield of Absorption now heals nearby allies when it ends. This trait now causes all versions of Shield of Absorption to revive allies by 15% when it detonates.Straight-up nerf. Granted the revival speed is faster, the loss of boons is too much. So much sustain lost from a successful revival.

Courageous Return: This trait has been reworked and it has been renamed to "Stalwart Courage". It grants the guardian Protection for 3 seconds in PvE and 1 second in PvP/WvW whenever aegis on the guardian is removed due to blocking an attack.Good buff, dislike the change. It's better than before but as I've stated above, Valor is such a terrible self-sustain line in comparison to Honor. This miniscule adjustment won't change that.

Thank you very much for your consideration,

Arken

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I really don't understand the new mentality to remove stuff from the game that's been there since the beginning. Does it hurt to have traits for reduced fall damage? No. Do people still use it even tho there's gliding and mounts? Yes. There are a lot of scenarios where gliding and mounts are disabled, including JPs, that a lot of players depend on this. If you plan to remove the traits, can you at least then reduce the fall damage overall to compensate? Same thing with the raise speed. Like i mentioned earlier, we have a core game trait that increases revive speed, and between that and the trait, today it feels slower than it was when it was released with HoT. Can we at least have these things permanently put in the game if you plan to remove the traits that gives us the option?

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@YtseJam.9784 said:I really don't understand the new mentality to remove stuff from the game that's been there since the beginning. Does it hurt to have traits for reduced fall damage? No. Do people still use it even tho there's gliding and mounts? Yes. There are a lot of scenarios where gliding and mounts are disabled, including JPs, that a lot of players depend on this. If you plan to remove the traits, can you at least then reduce the fall damage overall to compensate? Same thing with the raise speed. Like i mentioned earlier, we have a core game trait that increases revive speed, and between that and the trait, today it feels slower than it was when it was released with HoT. Can we at least have these things permanently put in the game if you plan to remove the traits that gives us the option?

^^^This x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@misterman.1530 said:I like that fear idea. How about an unblockable one that can't be cleansed - so it has to run its course? Say 5 seconds or something.

Please don't suggest better tradeoffs for the necros self ailments by saying you'd consider an unblockable, unremovable 5 second fear to be fair for the competitive modes.That's insane.Necros need better bang for the self ailments, yes. Especially the ones that come with traited consume conditions. But 5 seconds of fear that you cant block or remove isn't reasonable.

So..explain how one should be able to block or avoid fear in the first place? If the Necro sacrifices health, to the point it could be near death, then they should have something in return. An unblockable fear or an uninterruptible, non-corruptive (sic) block. Something.

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@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

@Robert Gee.9246 said:Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:
Fall damage reduction is important in WvW.
We hear you that fall damage reduction and gauging whether a fall will kill you is something that is considered regularly as a part of WvW. However we would like to see how the WvW meta adjusts before making additional changes.

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

While I am really glad to see evidence that you are indeed following the feedback, I think you may have missed the significance of some of what has been said.

JPs:Removing fall damage not only impacts those who regularly run JPs & portal trains as mentioned earlier by @"Treize.3578", but also impacts those who are unskilled at jumping puzzles, for whom this trait may mean the difference between restarting part way through, and having to jump back to the nearest unlocked waypoint and run back to the beginning and start all over again. While the first is frustrating, I can guarantee that the second is going to end up being the difference between retrying and giving up for some of those trying to learn. When saying that Griffenrook is the only JP that has falling built into the mechanics and therefore the only one you will put in falling damage mitigation, it seems that you then now intend for JPs to be more punishing for players to learn.

WvW:I am really not sure how to take your answer here in wanting to see how the meta shifts before making additional changes. "additional" seems to indicate that you intend to go ahead and remove falling damage reduction from WvW despite near universal agreement in the part of those posting here that this is a bad idea. Fine. You are the developer, your call whether we like it or not. But in saying "how the meta shifts" you create for yourself a conundrum. Either the falling damage mitigation traits are commonly used enough for you to consider them meta, in which case you are intentionally removing a well used and clearly well liked feature, or else the traits are not used much, they are niche, in which case waiting for the "meta to shift" has no meaning at all.

*Edited for clarity

We are all rats in this developer's maze, to do with as he pleases. Now be a good rat and jump off this cliff if you want your cheese. You died? Too bad.

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