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Upcoming Changes to Fall Damage and Revival


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Signet of Mercy change seems strange. Guardians still have that Signet proliferation trait right? It seems like this might mess with boonstackers' builds whereas healing power would scale infinitely. I don't think it's a problem if you're boonstacking on your own, though, it'd let you fit a piece of Marshal's in instead of Seraph's or whatever.

That new Curses trait looks very appealing, though. I like that it's not Fear-based with how many Reaper control skills not being Fear-based. The Signet of Undeath passive change is also interesting; there's a very silly Signets of Suffering build hidden in there.

I'm a bit worried about the WvW concerns as well. While it's not what I do in WvW I can see why it'd be useful to load up your Scourges and Warriors with these traits to strip stacks of Stab.

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Just to add my name to the list of people who'd like to see this kept in WvW.While I'd assume it's infrequently used - and I personally don't trait for it - I always have to applaud those who do and utilize it effectively.I also don't think it's particularly confusing. In fact it's pretty clear.This may give you more flexibility in balancing, but I don't think it's worth the cost of a useful ability, both from a QoL perspective, and tactical perspective.

Please rethink this.

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I hope Anet doesn't make these changes right away after seeing all the negative reactions on the fall damage and signets change from the majority of the player base. In my opinion the fall damage traits should be left as it is and if there are still buffs needed to the trait, do it on the other bonus it has. Personally, i feel these traits are in a good position and doesn't affect the balance of the game in any manner so, better leave them untouched.

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No reduction to engi's Toss Elixir R cooldown while powering up everyone else's ress skills...feels sad. Currently 99% of peoples don't seem to even know about its existence due to how niche it's considered. (Though even more clutch than necroresses in certain situations.)Though guess Kitty can still laugh about falling to death on her heal engi.

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Necromancer

The cast time reductionon on Signet of Undeath is huge. The current skill's cast time is so long that every other resurrection technique across all professions is both faster and more reliable. The ground targeting tacks on additional time and effort to cast time. The AoE diameter was another reason for failure as it was not large enough to capture 3 targets outside of PvE stacking. Trying to overlap more than one target added real cast time. The signet also does not provide any other group benefits. It is extremely stingy and easy to make fail.

The new version will still be a challenge with its ground targeting and substantial cast time but it will probably be more useful. I do not think anyone will miss the deletion of 2 targets. Concerns about PvP with all of the fast res'ing are warranted so please set up an open beta preview weekend.

The large health sacrifice on the revised Signet of Undeath, though, is very Necro-like and will result in Necro needing incoming healing from babysitters. Is that going to actually be a reasonable play style? Will taking SoU be valuable enough to pay for a babysitting build?

How failures will be handled? Will a health shortage trigger Unholy Sanctuary? Will it fail to consume health if it fails to proc on a target and res' successfully? Will barrier help or even be required?

One last question is whether it will be competitive with the revised res skills of other professions.

Insidious Disruption reminds me of Reaper's Protection, which did not have Protection until it was changed into Dark Defiance. Anyway, I like the Torment more than a Fear proc because of Necromancer's limited mobility. Make the ICD reasonably low, please.

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I am on the side of those who do not really care about the fall damage reduction so ok.

For the rez changes I just think that Guard rez + defense changes look crazy. The mesmer feedback also looks super strong (maybe too much?) and will become one of the top rez (Large aoe rez + immune to projectiles).

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Hi Robert,

Thank you for sharing the Quality of Life part of Balance Update and a sneak peek on the Rez skills changes.

I really love the changes with Fall Damage Reduction traits.It means a lot to me, as a player, that you and balance team focuses on such important ascpect of this game while preparing for balance updates.

From my experience I can only share that, as you pointed out, I've never took them, beside WvW, where we cant glide as we please nor use mounts masteries.I hope that you thought about WvW community while planning this changes, as those were a life saviour in many scenarios.Not to mention the satisfaction, when chased by holo you jump down the cliff avoiding death, but the oppent splats.

Love to hear more about the rest of planned changes in the Balance patch.Please keep the good work going!

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@"Largo Cifer.3495" said:I hope Anet doesn't make these changes right away after seeing all the negative reactions on the fall damage and signets change from the majority of the player base. In my opinion the fall damage traits should be left as it is and if there are still buffs needed to the trait, do it on the other bonus it has. Personally, i feel these traits are in a good position and doesn't affect the balance of the game in any manner so, better leave them untouched.

And what does this "majority of player base" takes positively?I don´t agree with every change, but the goal seems pretty much clear and viable, so I welcome the changes.

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I'm curious as to who you think your audience is if you imagine they're finding the description of falling damage reduction over-complicated. It's about as straightforward and basic a concept as you could imagine. If that's too complicated then most of the game must be completely incomprehensible.

I'll also +1 the request to split this between game modes, if you insist on going ahead with the pointless and unecessary change. I've survived so many lemming rushes over cliffs in WvW thanks to having fall reduction traited. Bear in mind that gliding is frequently not an option in that game mode and there are no flying or hovering mounts there. The original functionality of the trait in WvW is largely unchanged after seven years.

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  • ArenaNet Staff

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

Stronger reses are not desired in PvP.We are looking at competitive splits for some of these changes but they haven't been finalized yet.

Fall damage reduction is important in WvW.We hear you that fall damage reduction and gauging whether a fall will kill you is something that is considered regularly as a part of WvW. However we would like to see how the WvW meta adjusts before making additional changes.

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Medic's Feedback might be too strong.We are a little worried about it but not any more than the other revival changes.

Stalwart Courage (Courageous Return) is definitely too strong.Talked this one over with Cal and we're going to split the protection duration in PvP/WvW to 1 second. We considered an ICD for this trait, but think it's more interesting without it so we will only add one if this split proves insufficient to balance it.

Why didn't you change Toss Elixir R?We did not originally plan to modify Toss Elixir R as we considered it fairly strong due to its 5 target cap and 170% total revive amount. With that said, we took another look at it and decided to make a few changes since there we felt that it being stopped by projectile destruction/reflection was too punishing for its recharge.

  • Toss Elixir R: This skill no longer removes 1 condition when thrown. Increased projectile speed by 25%. The projectile thrown by this skill is now unblockable. Fixed an issue where the land and water versions of this skill moved at different speeds.
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Putting my name down against the fall damage reduction removal as well.

From a WvW Roaming Weaver it was handy to have as an additional knockdown or stun when gliding overhead and ambushing other players, or when jumping off walls while defending an objective. Or for taking shortcuts, and escaping from groups that weren’t traited and couldn’t follow you without getting injured enough that I could flip the fight on them. It’s a very important defensive trait for my low health build.

This would essentially remove a fun mechanic from the game. It was fun knowing I had the option to jump off a cliff and still survive. I’m not a thief/Mesmer/engi/Ranger that can stealth and disengage if they need to, this trait was my way of disengaging when caught in a bad place. It allows for taking less defensive builds, so I could play a glassier build and mitigate something risk by being able to retreat off a cliff.

Sigh It’s just a shame that we’ll lose this unique interaction with fall damage...

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

At least some of us expected using Signet of Undeath with 50% health, or less, and going straight to downed state would not be possible. The concerns are over someone else easily one-shotting the Necro during, or immediately after, the skill use.

Consider splitting the health cost with the available LF pool.

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The changes for PvP and WvW are completely understood.

However, do keep in mind many of us do favor the fall damage traits for when we really need them. Not just for JPs, but also for the Twisted Castle raid, and maybe even Chak Gerent's Nuhoch lane.

Because of that, I'm holding out hope for the damage reduction to become a mastery. Maybe for LS5, or maybe even a new line for Core Tyria masteries? (The latter I think would make it more accessible to new players.)

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@Treize.3578 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

I'll add that since Griffonrook is made so you can do it without the bomb, many if not most seem to ignore the bomb mechanic in favor of taking the time needed to line up the tricky jumps since the final chest really doesn't hold much worth the effort of a speed run. The bomb buff only lasts 3 minutes, and that only if you make it that long without taking any damage, so to get the jp achieve or the skyscale the bomb is bypassed. Now you want to require people to use a timed, easily lost buff to navigate this puzzle's legitimate path without dying? I hope you're willing to hand out huge bundles of free revive orbs.

Fall damage reduction has been one of the (many) enjoyable things about this game. Your stated reason (simplification) seems ... forced. It takes some text out of a tool tip and then makes hunks of the game harder, not easier. Maybe this is one step to something bigger you can't tell us about yet, something that will make this change worth it, but in the interim on its face it's merely a nerf to fun.

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@Treize.3578 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

I'm fairly sure Jumping puzzles were never meant to be 'risk free' parts of the game, nor were they designed to be skipped and completed in many ways they are today. Many are are designed to be challenging content, either exploratory wise (finding the right path) or mechanically wise (being able to make the right jump). Players that are too impatient (that is all jumping puzzles essentially really need: patience, this is coming from a bad jumper myself) simply must accept not to do them. Players need to realise that there will - and should - be some challenging aspects in the game, and many jumping puzzles were designed to fall under that category. The game can't continually be simplified/diluted down to the lowest common denominator.

Games are for fun/relaxation/enjoyment, but just what those things are varies from players to player, so in the end for the most part development must persist with their vision of the game (we all know you cannot please everyone). After all it is their game, not ours. We choose to play or not. The game is not a public service, and we do not have any rights as such to demand X or Y from them.

Additionally, I'm sure that those mesmers that are still committed to enabling a route for players to bypass this part of the game will find a way in almost all circumstances. In the end, though some might kick and scream now, the player base will adapt. It always does.

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@Donari.5237 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

I'll add that since Griffonrook is made so you can do it without the bomb, many if not most seem to ignore the bomb mechanic in favor of taking the time needed to line up the tricky jumps since the final chest really doesn't hold much worth the effort of a speed run. The bomb buff only lasts 3 minutes, and that only if you make it that long without taking any damage, so to get the jp achieve or the skyscale the bomb is bypassed. Now you want to require people to use a timed, easily lost buff to navigate this puzzle's legitimate path without dying? I hope you're willing to hand out huge bundles of free revive orbs.

and what is wrong with expecting people to do a JP as the designer intended? O_o

I have nothing against people coming with alternate solutions but "you shouldn't make X changes because people will have to do the content as designed" is a weird stance. Fall damage reduction is not even required for Griffonrook if you are not carrying the bomb since you have all the time in the world to heal up before making any of the big jumps.

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That's some really thoughtful balance consideration. I don't think the bomb needs the fall reduction buff, though, as most people don't do that JP with the fall reduction trait.

Though it might leave some players confused; many people also run the JP without the bomb just for the achievement or whatever without actually opening the chest. With this change, running with the bomb will be easier, then players who decide to give up on the bomb will suddenly experience an increase in difficulty. Perhaps give the whole JP area a unique buff, or make it so the bomb is mandatory for the achievement. I like all these changes, but I wouldn't add the buff at all.

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@Reverielle.3972 said:

Games are for fun/relaxation/enjoyment, but just what those things are varies from players to player, so in the end for the most part development must persist with their vision of the game (we all know you cannot please everyone). After all it is their game, not ours. We choose to play or not. The game is not a public service, and we do not have any rights as such to demand X or Y from them.

Can we then please have raids that are not possible to success with less than 10 players fighting perfect?

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